Russians Seek Answers To Central Moscow GPS Anomaly (yahoo.com) 176
stevegee58 writes: Russians have been noticing that their GPS doesn't work in Moscow near the Kremlin. Everyone from taxi drivers to Pokemon Go players suddenly notice that they're transported 18 miles away at the airport when they near the Kremlin. While this may be an annoyance to the public it seems like a reasonable countermeasure to potential terrorist threats. Is it only a matter of time before other vulnerable sites such as the White House or the Capitol in Washington start doing the same? "A programmer for Russian internet firm Yandex, Grigory Bakunov, said Thursday his research showed a system for blocking GPS was located inside the Kremlin, the heavily guarded official residence of Russian President Vladimir Putin," reports Yahoo. "The first anomaly was recorded in June, according to Russian media reports, which have also suggested that the GPS interference comes and goes in a pattern. Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Thursday he did not know why the malfunction was occurring and admitted experiencing the problem himself when driving recently. Peskov redirected questions to Russia's Federal Guards Service, which is responsible for protecting the Kremlin and senior Russian officials."
Bollocks (Score:4, Funny)
In conjunction with the fact that it isn't marked on any paper maps and is completely invisible, you mean?
Re:Bollocks (Score:5, Insightful)
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That would be fine if the self-guided drones and weapons only used GPS, they don't. Often they use a multitude of things, from GPS, to visual, to laser pinpointing, to other things we don't even know about.
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That would be fine if the self-guided drones and weapons only used GPS, they don't. Often they use a multitude of things, from GPS, to visual, to laser pinpointing, to other things we don't even know about.
It's not a perfect defense, but it will stop casual attackers using toy technology. On the other hand, the reason all the ATM skimmers come from Russia is that they spent a lot of money on mathematics education. If there's any hackers in the world ready to make their drones finish a journey on dead reckoning when the GPS goes funny, it's probably Russian ones.
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That's OK, they come from private sector suppliers.
What? That's communism!
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Why only Russians? This improves security against all amateur-level drones etc. which can come from any nation state (and even non officially recognized actors such as IS).
Re: Bollocks (Score:2)
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I believe that most of the really sophisticated strategic weapons do not use GPS. They use inertial navigation with highly accurate and terribly expensive gyros that enable accuracy to within 30 feet or so at distances of thousands of miles. Only a few nations have such weapons however so this system is probably aimed at terrorists or some lesser opponent.
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Also even a piloted drone requires some sort of signal for operation which is also likely vulnerable to blocking, as otherwise splat (or autonomous take over which would then be subject to the other anyway).
Re:Bollocks (Score:4, Insightful)
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That wouldn't fly a drone off to the actual airport. It may do several things.
A drone with FCC style restrictions built in my immediately land itself instead of continuing into the protected zone as flying within range of an airport is banned.
It might try to correct its course and head further away from the actual Kremlin trying to find it. Like the robot from the Asimov book that was running in circles trapped between 2 zones.
It's extremely unlikely it could head to the airport from this, and most likely i
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The spoofing makes the GPS receiver believe the airport is in 2 locations. One real, the other at the Kremlin. It's like you drew a circle around the airport and then copied and pasted that over the Kremlin.
It shouldn't have any problem finding the real airport unless it flies over the Kremlin and gets confused. The drone will react normally at the real airport and unpredictability at the Kremlin.
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Directed? Directed how? Is there are clear line of spoofed GPS all the way to the airport? Do you think a drone is going to say, ooh actually the Kremlin is over there and I'll just fly there and bomb it without looking at myGPS again until I'm done. More likely you'll see a drone endlessly flying on circles just outside the Kremlin
Re: Bollocks (Score:2)
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So instead of terrorists blowing up the Kremlin, and maybe killing a couple dozen high-ranking officals, the terrorists will be re-directed to Moscow's airport, where they can blow up hundreds of people. Good plan.
Wow, your spacial reasoning isn't very good, is it?
Think like a spy (Score:1)
"Russian 'spy rock' was genuine, former chief of staff admits"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... [telegraph.co.uk]
"... accepted that Britain did indeed plant a "spy rock" despite attempts by the then-prime minister to dismiss the story and denials of improper conduct by the Foreign Office."
Britain admits 'fake rock' plot to spy on Russians
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
A lot of spy devices are distance sensitive. So a good idea of the inner device location is
Countermeasures (Score:2)
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Right, because it's totally impossible to disregard one information source if it deviates beyond reasonable limits, and even if it was possible it would totally never occur to engineers or scientists.
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Inertial system says I'm heading North at speed x. GPS concurs. I continue on the same course. You wait. Time passes. Inertial system says I'm heading North at speed x. GPS suddenly says I'm heading West at 17x when my maximum speed is 3x.
I disregard the GPS for the time being. In an actual plane, I might look out of the window.
Re: Countermeasures (Score:2)
Diversion (Score:1)
It seems a bit odd to redirect attacks to an airport - I'd have expected it to point to the opposition's headquarters.
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No attacks intended for the Kremlin won't go anywhere but traffic for the airport might go to the Kremlin...
Re:Diversion (Score:4, Funny)
Future headline:
Russian leader Vladimir Putin was killed in a freak accident today while crossing the street next to the Kremlin. A fully autonomous prototype Tesla sedan had veered out of control and was speeding through central Moscow side streets at freeway speeds, and it tragically ran over Putin and several of his bodyguards. A defiant Elon Musk issued the following statement: "Our vehicle had nothing to do with this incident. We've analyzed the black box data, and this car was miles away at the airport at the time of the accident."
Doesn't sound very safe (Score:1)
transported 18 miles away at the airport
Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.
I could completely understand if GPS didn't work at all, or gave a an unimportant location.
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Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.
Are you implying that planes rely exclusively on GPS to the point where an anomaly would suddenly cause them to change course and attempt to land on the roof of the Kremlin? I know $50 drones which are more intelligent than that.
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Pilot error blamed for Syd flight failure [theaustralian.com.au]
One approach trajectory for runway 34 in MEL flies directly over a runway at the much smaller Essendon airport and some large jets have come close to landing there because they follow their navigation, see a runway and go for it.
People fuck up. In the dark with rain going they might see lights below, assume they are in the right spot and put their A340 down in Putin's bedroom.
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You've linked to a subscriber only article but I'm going to assume that your article is about that Sydney flight which ended up on Melbourne instead of Asia because of a navigation error which had nothing to do with GPS
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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say? People following navigation incorrectly thinking that their navigation is in error and making a decision to land at a wrong airport has nothing to do with GPS.
That's actually a prefect example of why this is a non issue. Do you think a pilot will blindly follow an incorrect GPS reading and smash into the side of the Kremlin because their navigation was right? Because that pilot error example you linked to showed the navigation was actually right and the pilot
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Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.
So that's why Mathias Rust landed there! :p
They must have jammed Loran-C too, back before GPS/GLONASS
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I would agree but there are a lot of idiots out there.
Counter-countermeasures? (Score:2)
It seems like this would be easy thwart by having the software software prevent sudden large movements (while GPS is active) that don't match the reading of an IMU. [wikipedia.org]
Everything you need is in every smartphone, you just need basic programming knowledge to defeat these countermeasures.
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Alternative? (Score:2)
Re: Alternative? (Score:1)
maybe. or they just use their not-secret alternative, glonass, with a fallback to beidu or galileo, when they go online.
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Whaaaat? You mean a Russian alternative to GPS that they own and operate? That's crazy talk. [wikipedia.org]
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This is meant for assassins and terrorists (Score:1)
Very few military weapons depend solely on GPS (or GLONASS for that matter). It's been obvious for a while that satellite navigation and guidance systems were not going to survive any engagement with another military for very long. The Chinese [wikipedia.org] finalized that argument in 2007.
Further, a Predator or other military drone isn't going to last 5 seconds above Moscow airspace. It would have to be a stand-off weapon or (god forbid) a ballistic missile. The area covered is very small by these standards and any o
Note to Czar Vladimir (Score:1)
Our old Minuteman III missiles were made before GPS, and don't rely on it for terminal guidance
and in spite of your meddling , The Donald won't be getting his finger on the launch button any time soon
Is it really hard to figure out? (Score:3)
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The most plausible explanation I've heard so far is it's to break GPS triggered car bombs,
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Plausible, no. Reasonable, yes. However this is Putin's Russia so reasonable carries very little weight.
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Being the most plausible doesn't mean it's very plausible, but it's more plausible than America doing it
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The problem with plausibility here isn't with who but with why.
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DrXym thinks it's the USA doing it, that's what I was replying to.
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LOL, Apologies.
Plenty of devices support GLONASS (Score:3)
Most recent phones support GLONASS. Even an older device like the Nexus 5 does so. You can use an app like GPS Test (by Chartcross, for Android) to see them. They're the higher numbered satellite (60s, 70s). The support is built into the GPS integrated receiver, from Qualcomm and others.
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Most recent phones support GLONASS. Even an older device like the Nexus 5 does so. You can use an app like GPS Test (by Chartcross, for Android) to see them. They're the higher numbered satellite (60s, 70s). The support is built into the GPS integrated receiver, from Qualcomm and others.
And not just that, but most drones' GPS receivers support GLONASS as well. By far the most common GPS chipset is the NEO6,7,8M. NEO6M is the only of these which doesn't support GLONASS and it's also by far the most rare, most common is NEO7M and NEO8M is most common for new sales since the price is virtually identical to the 7M.
Re:Is it really hard to figure out? (Score:4, Informative)
GPS coverage can't be disabled or modified by the GPS satellites selectively over such a small area as the Kremlin. The satellites are essentially just sending the time and their location continuously and their antennas aren't very directional. Anything they did that affected accuracy at the Kremlin would have to affect a wide surrounding area as well. Any localised effect as described has to be local jamming which almost certainly means official Russian involvement.
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It wouldn't be exactly simple but it would be possible. The main issue would be that GPS transmitters near the Kremlin that were installed by anyone other than the Russian authorities would be very quickly noticed by them and would be relatively easily located. Since the anomalies appear to have been present for a long period of time it's a pretty safe bet that they're being caused by the Russian authorities.
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I didn't think it was really a question that it was the state.
Take a transmitter that would go in a GLONASS satellite, hook it up to an antenna, and plug it in somewhere. Upload slightly incorrect information. Done. It's not really 'spoofing' the GPS system, because it *is* the GPS system.
In a politicians mind (Score:2)
It makes sense to send terrorist threats from the Kremlin to the airport where they become a photo op and a chance to show strong leadership. Why do you think other politicians want it?
Only one reason to jam GPS... (Score:2)
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If there were only backup systems which could detect changes in motion by measuring acceleration regardless of what nonsensical GPS data says and maybe a secondary device which measures angular changes, and if the path since the last good data set could be extrapolated based on these hypothetical devices. For a thought exercise let's call the acceleration detector an "accelerometer" and the angular detector a "gyroscope." It's such a shame that those devices do not exist and are not already included in crui
Re: Only one reason to jam GPS... (Score:2)
Anyone consider it's a moved WiFi access point? (Score:2)
For those with Androids, by default, WiFi access point known locations supersede GPS **Even when WiFi is turned off** (the asterisk-encapsulated part can be disabled, but it's pretty difficult, and it annoys you about it all the time when you do).
If the complaining taxi drivers are using auto manufacturer GPSes, then I guess that's not the problem. But if they are using Androids, it could be. And for Pokemon Go users, it certainly would be consistent.
I turn off this feature mostly because it's very annoyi
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WiFi does not supersede GPS on Android. It only supersedes GPS if the required GPS accuracy is not achievable. I.e. this may be a problem if you're INSIDE the Kremlin and not near any windows, and someone in the Kremlin decided to re-purpose a WiFi device from the local airport, ... and keep the airport's SSID.
Sorry there's just so much wrong with this theory.
Massive misunderstanding (Score:2, Informative)
It is strange to see many posters think that GPS is an american something. GPS is a shorthand for the generic term "Global Positioning System".
The american implementation is called NAVSTAR,
The soviet (later russian) implementation is called Glonass,
The European Union has Galileo and
The chinese system is called COMPASS
(but most call it Bei-dou, lit. art of wayfinding, in order not to confuse it with "Compass Call" which is an american military satellite jamming aircraft).
All of these are Global Positioning S
Homing Beacon (Score:2)
Eh, you say jamming signal I say homing beacon.
What a great idea! (Score:2)
Render the GPS on someone's cellphone useless if they're, unbeknownst to the poor phone user, near a location that the government has decided shouldn't be found via GPS. What happens to the poor soul who needs to call 9-1-1 after gettiing in a nasty car accident or to report a crime and the EMS service or police can't find them because GPS indicates they're miles away from the true location? Short: answer: there a good chance that, if they're seriously injured, they'll probably die. Jeebus, this is that da
Is it actually confirmed to be the GPS network? (Score:2)
obligatory "in Soviet Russia" quote (Score:1)
I am surprised that no one has put in the obligatory "in Soviet Russia, GPS gets directions from you" comment yet. How can you not quote Yakov Smirnoff?
When did reading a map become impossible? (Score:2)
Not being able to find the Kremlin would require navigation of a truly mind-bogglingly low standard. I've walked around the thing (having several hours to kill in Moscow, between flying in to one of the internal airports and out of one of the external airports) and it took a solid 3 hours. Detouring, it must be said, to find a toilet and to buy a matrioshka which said rude things about Clint
Re:Signal triangulation = GPS (Score:5, Interesting)
Now that it's know that there is an error then any attacker would plan for alternatives.
The only way it really can be effective is when it's not active until really needed.
And there are still maps, alternative beacons, compasses (magnetic and gyro) and dead reckoning that can be used to find such targets for anyone out to perform an attack.
People were able to navigate even before GPS existed.
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The US tried that with maps and sketches by informants from Iraq.
When US top experts got deep in Iraq they find cache of vacuum cleaners not match sketch.
Spies who defect or are sent to be perfect defector often draw nice map to earn top defector status and good life as expected. Map match map by past double agent sent last decade, is confirmed by two sources from different departments. Must be true as both now trusted defectors could never both
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Who needs GPS for spying? We've had satellites that can read the numbers on vehicle licence tags for decades.
Re: Signal triangulation = GPS (Score:1)
Poutine doesnt want hipsters with DJI drone to take his dick pix
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Some weapons are GPS-guided, such as JDAM-assisted bombs.
The world is gearing up for a heated conflict. Wether it occurs or not is a different story. But last month's US chief of armies gave a chilling speech where they expect mass casualties within 10 years, to the likes of WWII.
The nations are placing their pieces on the map and gearing up for defence. GPS denial devices is an obvious counter-measure, assuming it actually deter military -grade GPS systems (which are far more precise than civilian ones).
Stop lying (Score:1)
last month's US chief of armies gave a chilling speech where they expect mass casualties within 10 years, to the likes of WWII.
Stop lying. It never happened.
You're a paid Kremlin troll.
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Daily Motion link of the speech [dailymotion.com]
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We've had satellites that can read the numbers on vehicle licence tags for decades.
Uh...says who? Certainly not laws of diffraction.
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There's an odd throw-away line from a book on the construction of the Hubble telescope, purportedly from someone at Perkin-Elmer, who made it and the satellites who point the other way. "Turns out things are a lot clearer looking into the atmosphere than looking out of it."
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Yes, agreed, it's unlikely that plates can be read and illumination angles of 30 degrees make it much more difficult. But this received wisdom allows information more realistically obtained from in situ personnel to be helpfully explained away.
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You mean the militants that use roadside bombs because the only people they will try to kill in person are women and children? Those fuckers drop their guns and melt into the population when the marines show up. They use children as human shields because they know we try like hell to avoid collateral damage and killing the innocent. When the US occasionally fucks up the innocent often do die but to ISIS and Hamas and other similar bastards there are no innocents. To their hate filled minds everyone is a
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In truth they are the enemy of all civilized society.
Sure, but so are those who radicalized them. People don't become terrorists on a humbug.
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That reminds me of an interview with chess grandmaster Lev Alburt, who defected to the US around 1980. When he was a kid growing up in the Soviet Union, the government propaganda always said that the Americans were preparing to attack. And the people believed it. So the local kids drew maps showing the locations of military barracks and other landmarks, to give to the American paratroopers when they landed. But the liberation forces never came.
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The West really, really wanted to believe that lifestyle, freedom and cash offers could not be countered with a steady flow of double agents.
The other issue is how the CIA and MI6 have to act in Russia. Laying flat in a car, changing clothing, a wig just to reach out to a local turned contact to offer spy equipment or contact p
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You're very credulous. You read all that information, and fail to suss out the most important implication: there is no way for you to know what any of that means. You have no way to know what response there was to the influx of double-agents, or if the responses were effective. Neither side benefits from giving you accurate knowledge, but both sides are known to leak nonsense to conspiracy theorists and overly-credulous historians.
Just like, you have no idea why the NSA got funding, or what it was for. Memb
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That can usually be seen with an influx of different science education offers, the building of listening stations globally, the power needs, cooling water and the rushed reaction to a few very select very fake signals collected.
Antenna design, foundations, the need to involve a local gov/mil with a cover story.
If billions get spent on placing hardware (like a long term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]) th
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".. what response there was to the influx of double-agents, or if the responses were effective."
That can usually be seen with an influx of different science education offers, the building of listening stations globally, the power needs, cooling water and the rushed reaction to a few very select very fake signals collected.
Is that how it was in your daydream, or are you going off a TV show?
You're being naive and credulous again, even while defending yourself against it! No, you do not, did not, and will not know how many double-agents there were, how many were triple agents, how many were single agents pretending to be double agents, if their activities were monitored in a way that made them ineffective, if their activities were monitored in a way that actually exposed intelligence resources in their home country, etc., etc.,
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this hits my Gee-spot.
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You're over-thinking it. If the enemy knows that it is unreliable and can't be used for an attack... it won't be used for an attack.
It might not have to thwart other types of attack in order to achieve the purpose it was intended for.
Yes, you show that the purpose is not likely to be to fool people into believing that they are really at the airport when near the Kremlin. But that doesn't mean it won't work, it just means that the more likely purpose is to deny use of GPS for detonating a bomb near there.
It
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Two things.
Likely the reason for the GPS scrambling isn't to deter human beings from locating within the area. If one were to build an autonomous drone however that might make any attack just a bit harder. It would require a manual operator, which would be subject to distance limitations, and also loss of connection as likely that signal can also be blocked.
Second, the story says "GPS", but doesn't actually say which GPS. So far as I am aware there are at least 3 or 4 variations of GPS out there. GPS as com
Re:Signal triangulation = GPS (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Signal triangulation = GPS (Score:5, Funny)
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This is a feature not a bug.
Yeah, imagine the sales pitch (in a heavy Russian accent): Let your sat nav guide you into the Moskva river, enjoy a river cruise and take a bath while travelling to work! Just don't forget to install an outboard motor in the boot of your car and mind the airliners when you drive across the runways at Sheremetyevo airport.
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That's plain stupid. The GPS signal is very weak (-130dBm, it boggles the mind how weak a signal that is). Swamping the band with stronger signals will "overwrite" the true GPS signal and not even the best directional antenna can retrieve it.
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A better answer might be that the best reasonable directional antennas are not directional enough to reject a strong local jamming signal.
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Yes, that's a better explanation, I agree.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Me too. It could tell my ankle bracelet that I am at home when I am at the air port.
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The worst, saddest thing I can say about your idea is it would play into Clinton's war card...
depending on what you call the war card.
Not every schedule is about the US election but recently, we've got the Pentagon's assault on Deir Ezzor (a thorough slaughter of Syrian troops), and then the assault on Mosul (which entails destruction of all water and power infrastructure, as part of "humanitarian" warfare). If the attacks on a humanitarian convoy was a false flag, then that's some hard core stuff there. Wh
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Stick their head outside the airplane window and say "Yup.. looks like we're close"? ;-)
They used [special, fancy-pants] sextants through windows. Then they used the bomb sight. Alas, equipment for automated optical reckoning is still quite spendy.