China Chases Silicon Valley Talent Who Are Worried About Trump Presidency (cnbc.com) 416
China is trying to capitalize on President-elect Donald Trump's hardline immigration stance and vow to clamp down on a foreign worker visa program that has been used to recruit thousands from overseas to Silicon Valley. From a report on CNBC: Leading tech entrepreneurs, including Robin Li, the billionaire CEO of Baidu, China's largest search engine, see Trump's plans as a huge potential opportunity to lure tech talent away from the United States. The country already offers incentives of up to $1 million as signing bonuses for those deemed "outstanding" and generous subsidies for start-ups. Meanwhile, the Washington Post last month reported on comments made by Steve Bannon, who is now the president-elect's chief strategist, during a radio conversation with Trump in Nov. 2015. Bannon, the former Breitbart.com publisher, indicated that he didn't necessarily agree with the idea that foreign talent that goes to school in America should stay in America. "When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think ...," Bannon said, trailing off. "A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."
Fake news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can we contact Obama to have him punish Slashdot for posting more fake news?
Meanwhile, to burst your propaganda bubble about China is so welcoming and "tolerant" of immigrants, try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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You perfectly demonstrate the problem with trying to interpret the entire political spectrum as a single dimension.
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Sure, because left wing apologists for totalitarian regimes are just a straw man invented by the Evil Right as an excuse to criticise those caring sharing people on the left who only want whats best for their fellow man.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
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Re:Fake news? (Score:5, Insightful)
China is strongly right wing. Children are expected to look after their parents in old age, for example, rather than the state providing as it would in a left wing socialist country. China is also big on defining and enforcing morality, much like the right in the US, just sometimes in the opposite direction (e.g. forced abortions rather than forced births).
In fact it's kinda odd that Trump doesn't admire them more. They control their media, make sure it only prints the "truth". Trump seems to support that. They have lots of protectionism to keep their workers employed in factories, something else Trump is rather fond of. And they definitely have a "China first" policy.
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They are left wing by US standards, but by the rest of the world's standards they are only centre-right.
Confusing economy with politics [Re:Fake news?] (Score:3)
You are confusing political system with economic system. The dichotomies of the 1950's are mostly dead. Capitalist economies can and do have authoritarian political systems, and socialistic economies can and do have a democratic political system.
As far as what kind of economy China has, it looks pretty
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Fascinating. I guess since Obama can't say enough good things about China then Obama must be a deluded white-supremaist KKK member. Either that or Obama is actually a Republican... yeah that's it.
Re:Fake news? (Score:5, Informative)
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That might have been true before the rise of Bernie Sanders. Now, not so much. Even the more "moderate" liberals want to nationalize medicine.
Faustian bargain (Score:2)
Bad is better than Worst (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bad is better than Worst (Score:5, Interesting)
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It depends where in China and what you are doing. For foreigners the censorship is almost non-existent because it mostly only applies to phrases in Chinese, not other languages. Corruption is more of a worry if starting a business there, but the same goes for the US where cops can steal your cash and the president is a known scammer. Personally I wouldn't want to move to either country.
I've noticed that a lot of EU states are trying to attract people from the UK lately too. Generous relocation packages, goo
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> but the same goes for the US where cops can steal your cash
This is a largely irrelevant problem for most businesses as few deal in large amounts of cash. Just the idea of transporting cash as a non-criminal gives me pause. Never mind pause, I view it as absurd from a basic security perspective.
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It depends where in China and what you are doing. For foreigners the censorship is almost non-existent because it mostly only applies to phrases in Chinese, not other languages.
The firewall is somewhere between annoying (on a good day) to downright nasty for foreigners as well.
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Do you have any evidence that this Bannon person is a racist?
For example I have incontrovertible proof that, Keith Ellison, who is a front runner to run the Democratic National Committee, is an anti-semitic bigot.
You can listen to an analysis of him right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Links, please.
And is Steve wrong? (Score:5, Insightful)
"A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."
What about that statement is wrong? From a simple economic point of view, if you have no monetary value, then go die in a ditch like a good citizen.
Except, that we ARE more than an economy, humans are more valuable than just what they provide to the GDP of a nation.
I don't see China leaping over themselves to allow Americans to fully own businesses there, yet we let them do it here. Either China needs to open up, or we need to shut them out, either solution is fine.
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He's not wrong, it's just the implications that 66-75% of CEOs are Asian/South Asian, and that if that were true it would be some kind of problem for "civic society" (I think he means "civil society", but either way...)
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I understand what he means perfectly well. You need to explain how is incorrect statement that up to 75% of CEOs are from Asia/South Asia would be a problem for a "civic society", if true.
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"A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."
True, the "health" of the economy is an imperfect proxy for aggregate material wealth. While positively related to the social well-being of a society, there are additional determining factors, both spiritual and social.
Competitive Advantage (Score:4, Insightful)
If you train them in your country, you should try to keep them in your country unless you think your educational institutions are no more than money makers. Otherwise you will eventually lose the competitive advantage that you have over other countries that do not invest as heavily in education. If you are concerned about immigration in this regard then you should change the caps you place on the number of foreign students you allow.
Also, China can chase all they want, but I doubt that there is going to be a mass exodus of top talent to a country with a stifling authoritarian system in place. Top talent really requires freedom -- I think history teaches us at least that much.
Pants-wetters wanted (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're wetting your pants every day because you believe made-up scary stories about future Trump Administration actions, China wants you. They have a special story they want to tell you, and they know that after you hear it, you'll do exactly what they want you to. You're the perfect recruit. Apply now.
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Are you saying Trump made up those stories? WTF?
A politician making up stories? Inconceivable!
No Innovation in China (Score:2, Interesting)
China will never innovate until there's a culture change. In China, decisions come from the top. Those below do what they are told and do not challenge authority. They don't contribute original idea and make open suggestions; that's not their job. This has been engrained in Chinese culture for centuries and ultimately why the CCP is able to rule with the (softish) iron fist they do. To think getting all this talent from the American system is going to change that...nope. You can have all the smart peo
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I have no problem with this... (Score:3)
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1. We're offshoring next year Q1.
Doesn't apply to me. I've never been offshored in the 20+ years of my technical career.
2. Our bitches in Congress won't allow Trump to do anything like throwing out H1-bs - it's a done deal already.
China and India will recall their workers back when it becomes obvious that America is a dangerous place under Trump.
3. Trump supporters are looking at Carrier and other manufacturing businesses that are automating and will can people anyway, meaning they'll never notice the "over paid" office workers getting it and nor do they care. Trump is a symptom of class warfare - ironically enough.
Crony capitalism. What else is new?
4. Sorry, Trump isn't the great Orange Hope you were hoping for.
I voted for Hillary. She had bigger balls.
China's Trump is named Xi (Score:4, Informative)
Are you afraid that your country might become an authoritarian police state? Here's the solution: move to a country that IS an authoritarian police state!
Pretty much everything people fear that Trump may do to the US is already reality in China, including no due process, no elections, censorship, heavy use of fossil fuels, assertive foreign policies, leader worship, nationalism and a Make China Great agenda. The only thing China has going is that there's no data caps - so maybe it's interesting if you're stuck with Comcast.
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Well, I don't think anyone thinks many non-Chinese speaking Americans are going to move there. I think this is targeted at the top tier of immigrant talent, particularly people who may have come from China to the US for school and stayed. For them the equation is more complicated than the one you present, particularly if they feel unsafe, or even unwelcome in the US.
Just to put some perspective on this, as I write this there are 328,547 current graduate students in the US from China. Ten years ago nearly
Re:China's Trump is named Xi (Score:4, Informative)
China has 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total. Almost no foreigners are able to become citizens (source) [economist.com].
Even Japan, better known for hostility to immigration, naturalises around 10,000 new citizens each year; in America the figure is some 700,000.
If you aren't Han, you are in trouble in China.
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Oh China! (Score:3)
"State-sponsored conference" says it all about what Li's speecg really is. It's propaganda sent out by the Chinese government in an attempt to attack whatever plans the incoming administration might have. Funny that the clip here on slash dot doesn't have the stipulation for getting the $1 million dollar bonus. It's open it Nobel Prize winners, which could make considerably more in the Valley through awards, grants, salary, etc. But hey, good luck in China if that's where you think you'd like to live.
demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense (Score:5, Informative)
While it's not an exact match, Trump and Bannon are best described as mercantalist [wikipedia.org]. Mercantilism is an antiquated and discredited economic theory and practice largely abandoned in Europe after the 18th century.
Among the flaws in that system is that it trades visible gains for hidden losses. (Over at the National Review [nationalreview.com], Kevin D. Williamson cites Frédéric Bastiat on that point in a great analysis of Trump's Carrier deal). An interesting thing about China luring away talent is that it draws attention to that loss of talent, making it less hidden.
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I have some really bad news for you. A lot of Trump supporters have read Bastiat, can quote from several of his essays, and also do not consider themselves to be "conservatives" or "capitalists".
Also, we will fucking laugh in your face, because after everything we've been through recently, we find it hilarious that our opponents still think that we care about their disapproval.
P.S. Kevin D. Williamson, the author of that "article" should probably read more than just the title of Bastiat's works. Here [bastiat.org] is
It's not over: electors refuse to vote for Trump (Score:2)
Why I Will Not Cast My Electoral Vote for Donald Trump
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/opinion/why-i-will-not-cast-my-electoral-vote-for-donald-trump.html
Florida GOP Elector: I Get 4,000 Harassing Emails from Hillary Supporters a Day
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/12/florida-gop-elector-get-4000-harassing-emails-hillary-supporters-day-video/
Rogue electors brief Clinton camp on anti-Trump plan
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/electoral-college-rogues-trump-clinton-232195
Report: 15 Electors Will Ref
Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump (Score:2)
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And so begins the brain-drain of the US - the core of its last comparative advantage was education, similarly discarded, and now the trained are leaving for better pastures.
Assuming that you're here, are you planning to leave the U.S.? No? If not, ask yourself why. I'm sure the reasons you come up with are the same reasons everyone else that doesn't leave come up with as well.
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Well in that case, you guys are next:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/... [usatoday.com]
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China's welcome to flood their job market with cheap labor and devalue their Middle Class
Did you read the fucking summary even? $1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.
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For outstanding talent. Hint, you are not outstanding talent. I am not outstanding talent. Linus Torvalds might be outstanding talent. Most of the people that would be effected by anything Trump would do, China would kindly give them a work visa and that's it. And with the animosity I've seen between our Chinese workers and our Indian workers, if the guy is from India, they might not even be willing to do that.
Re:This works for me (Score:5, Informative)
Re: This works for me (Score:5, Insightful)
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By the dumbed-down snowflake "let's protest everything" generation I assume you mean the ones who are protesting that foreign workers are stealing jobs (when most of those jobs are gone due to automation), and all Muslims are terrorists. Or possibly the people who believe Steve Bannon claiming that two thirds or three quarters of Silicon Valley CEOs are Asian - you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe that. Still, I'm glad to hear that people are finally waking up to the fact that mainstream media, like Brei
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Agreed. No one trusts Fox because of their direct connections to the Republican party, lack of any opposing voices and putting out fake news [slashdot.org].
The only people who keep saying they don't trust the "mainstream media" are the same people who ignored all the criminal assaults on women Trump has done, ignored his use of illegal foreign workers, his use of Chinese steel, his bankrupt casinos and numerous other businesses desp
Re: This works for me (Score:3)
Or it could be that they've had 40 years of politicians wrecking their communities through bad trade deals and corporate shilling, they've had the nominal party of the left spend more time on identity politics than helping their core voters through a time of very destructive change and they've had legal and illegal immigration used by employers to drive down wages. Finally someone's come along and actually talked about those issues and said that they'll do something about it and they flocked to him.
Call pe
Exodus of Jewish Scientists? (Score:4, Insightful)
Shades of pre-war Germany.
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I can't imagine China representing much of a threat to talent fleeing the US. There are other English-speaking countries, one that isn't that far away, that is ramping up its demand for skilled immigrants.
Re:This works for me (Score:4, Insightful)
China's welcome to flood their job market with cheap labor and devalue their Middle Class
Did you read the fucking summary even? $1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.
Huh, maybe you're right.
Maybe China doesn't pay their CEOs tens of millions of dollars to be able to afford that kind of expense.
Ain't it amazing what you can offer when the CEO doesn't make 500x more than the average skilled employee? I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...
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I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...
When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.
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Re:This works for me (Score:5, Insightful)
> When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.
A "modest lifestyle" is for slaves and peasants. Even a single wide is better than some of the "modest" accommodations in western Europe.
Been there. Done that. No thanks.
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A "modest lifestyle" is for slaves and peasants.
That probably explain why people view me as being poor. I don't have a big house with an underwater mortgage, the newest cars on lease or $180 designer jeans. I'm never stressed out that I don't have the latest toy than the guy down the street.
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so basically you are cattle
Why would I be "cattle" if I'm not following the herd that's stampeding for no reason at all?
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Right, you have lived in Europe. We totally believe that.........
I have. I don't remember seeing things like single-wides that people live in in the USA.
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When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.
Which is interesting, because "a modest lifestyle" was the norm until the mid 1950s.
I grew up with my grandmother and heard plenty about what life was like in the first half of the 20th century, which is to say, much, much different that what we have now.
This over the top consumerist planet killing lifestyle we have enjoyed since then is quite an anomaly, and won't last.
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This over the top consumerist planet killing lifestyle we have enjoyed since then is quite an anomaly, and won't last.
I read somewhere that the 20th century was probably a historical fluke in comparison to the centuries before. Things will probably get worse in the coming centuries.
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Huh, maybe you're right.
Maybe China doesn't pay their CEOs tens of millions of dollars to be able to afford that kind of expense.
Ain't it amazing what you can offer when the CEO doesn't make 500x more than the average skilled employee? I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...
Well... that covers 10 employee of the 1 million dollar bonus.
Sorry, but the pool for CEO is a lot smaller than the average skilled worker. That drives wages up. Just like the pool of skilled workers is smaller than unskilled which is what drives those wages up.
People would be a lot happier if they weren't so worried about keeping up with the Jones.
Re:This works for me (Score:4, Informative)
$1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.
Those aren't for the average H1B, in fact probably not for H1B's at all. Those are for top tier talent, possibly white americans to basically export their knowledge and kickstart their startups. "Hey, I have money and labor, come make your idea work."
This isn't for the guy they brought in to break your exchange server and fix it for money, or write a horribly bad OS for Microsoft. They'll take them too if they're indeed cheap, but it's unclear that the labor arbitrage situation will work out well for this.
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$1 million signing bonuses
Also 72 virgins, luxury accommodations, white sand beaches, monkey butlers, gourmet food -- dine with your favorite celebrities! It's truly a workers' paradise.
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From the article:
Under a multi-category scheme updated in October last year, the highest incentive for so-called "Outstanding Talent" — a designation open for foreigners from 24 countries, including the United States, if the individual won a Nobel Prize in economics or physics — is an outright lump sum allowance of close to $1 million or 10 years free housing in a 2,200-square-foot apartment.
A lower category, an "Overseas Talent" who starts a business in the city, can receive a subsidy of up to
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I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. C
Yes of course but that talent will be eroded over time with these stupid policies. Keeping away immigrants such as the future the Elon Musks coming from South Africa, or their parents, such as the Lebanese immigrant father who gave birth to a guy named Steve Jobs... Yeah sure, sound like a really smart thing to do.
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I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. C
Yes of course but that talent will be eroded over time with these stupid policies. Keeping away immigrants such as the future the Elon Musks coming from South Africa, or their parents, such as the Lebanese immigrant father who gave birth to a guy named Steve Jobs... Yeah sure, sound like a really smart thing to do.
This post deserves more attention.
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(*) About 1/3rd of America, ditto Brexit voters and the coming Ixit voters.
I believe the proper term is Splitaly
Re:Fake News (Score:5, Funny)
The next First Lady will be.
Re:Fake News (Score:5, Funny)
The next Musk will not be an illegal immigrant
The next First Lady will be.
"An immigrant took my job!" - Michelle
"A white man forced me out of my house" - Barack
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Or, we could stop rubber-stamping the process of importing cheap labor for the express purpose of driving wages down. I have no problem with the legal visa process. I just have a problem with what it's actually used for in many cases.
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> The visa system just need to be restructured to give all the power to the worker allowing them to easily move from one company to another without fear of getting kicked out of the country.
There's two common complaints- one of them is that the visa system can be used as a way to guarantee very compliant workers. The second is that these compliant workers compete with local workers. I have no real idea what Trump thinks about the system: he certainly hasn't spent much time talking about the plight of t
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Re: This works for me (Score:2, Insightful)
Are you fucking kidding? You must know absolutely nothing about China's politics and history...
Re:This works for me (Score:5, Informative)
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Apparently you didn't study the birth of communism or the later "Cultural Revolution".
If factory automation gets inexpensive enough that it starts replacing all those factory workers in China, the country will again be ripe for some potentially ugly revolutions and demagogues. The Chinese citizens have shown multiple times they are not afraid of pro
Re:This works for me (Score:4, Insightful)
You're modded insightful? Fucking Mao was a populist demagogue who murdered like fifty fucking million Chinese. He's one of the top murderers in human history, and he happened within the lifetime of many alive today.
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The one advantage of the Chinese setup is you don't get a demagogue rising to the top purely by promising the ignorant and hateful everything they hope to get....
True, they tend to rely more on torture and execution of political dissidents over there.
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I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley.
There's the problem.
Your "full confidence" is unfounded. TFS and TFA prove you wrong.
What part of
"When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia ..."
gives you that confidence?
Bannon is clearly stating that he would sacrifice common sense for racial purity.
There's a reason the Pure Race is poorly represented in Silicon Valley.
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There's the problem.
Your "full confidence" is unfounded. TFS and TFA prove you wrong.
What part of
"When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia ..."
gives you that confidence?
I would think you would think this is a good thing since you think they they a big part of the problem. "Add to that the shortsighted greed of CEO and shareholders, which directly caused the loss of jobs, and America gets angry. [slashdot.org]" - by by CaptainDork
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American students are ill-prepared and unmotivated to do well in our schools.
In addition, the student loan sharks put Americans in the hole upon graduation.
Foreign students have the drive and long-term vision that serve them well, and they are subsidized by their home country.
I think America should work to attract the best minds, with an aggressive immigration retention program.
Bannon doesn't support that.
He would clearly let America sink to the bottom in an effort to maintain American purity.
That kind of t
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In addition, the student loan sharks put Americans in the hole upon graduation.
You mean the government?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]
It's amazing what was slid into healthcare reform
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and now they have good unions and a GOOD trades systems that gives people real skills and not years of a theory loaded class room. Also the people who do go to college also don't exit with a $35K+ loan.
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So where are they going?
It was easier for smart Germans in the 20s-30s: they could just go to America, or maybe Canada. It was easy to get in, it was industrialized, etc.
Where are smart Americans going to go now? There really aren't a lot of great places to flee to. You could go to Canada, but Canada is basically joined at the hip with America. If America's economy tanks, Canada's goes right with it, and Canada seems like they're usually echoing America's moves. You could go to the UK, but they're even
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From what I can tell, Germany is not easy to emigrate to if you're coming from North America. Also, they seem to be having a lot of trouble with domestic unrest lately because of all the middle eastern immigrants (same goes for France).
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> Smart people are leaving here.
Are they? I mean, Trump isn't leading the country yet, so we don't know. But there were PLENTY of people who said they WOULD leave- celebrities, mostly- and they sure as shit haven't done so. If America becomes a dystopia, you will see luminaries run away. This is at least testable.
> as humans become smarter they become more left leaning
This is inaccurate. Hell, the average IQ of Republicans is higher than that of Democrats, but by a trivial amount. Intelligence
Re: This works for me (Score:5, Insightful)
Such an oversimplistic reading.
1) The real thing that led enabling Hitler was the battle with communism. The Communists plus the Nazis had finally achieved just barely over half of the votes, meaning that you had to work with at least one of them - something that the moderates found horrifying. Of course, many people who voted for the Nazis did so because they thought they were the only ones tough enough to stand up to the communists. Parliament ultimately sided with the Nazis, who had sold the public and parliament on the idea that there was an imminent communist revolution about to take place.
Summary: fearmongering (and outright fictions) about "the great threat if the other side seizes power" causes the public and parliament to acquiesce to someone they're very apprehensive about.
2) The way Hitler leveraged that into a dictatorship was through driving out those likely to oppose him on bills to consolidate his power, and negotiating with the rest. First, with fear of a Communist revolt stirred up by the Reichstag Fire, he got the Reichstag Fire degree passed, allowing for the elimination of his communist opponents. Intimidation from Nazi paramilitaries also managed to intimidate some other people from taking or attending office. The key element he needed to gain full state power was the Enabling Act, which required a sizeable supermajority. This was achieved with a combination of paramilitary intimidation and horse trading. The Catholics failed to see, until it was too late, how much of a threat he really was, and so traded the enshrinement of provisions favorable to the Catholic Church for the extra votes needed to get the Enabling Act passed.
Summary: Paramilitary intimidation and use of the powers of the state to get enough power to horse trade your way to complete control.
#1 is fully and completely applicable, and anyone who pretends it can't apply to the US is kidding themselves. #2 is at present, not applicable. However, I should stress "at present". First, the Republicans control all branches of government (or at least will shortly after appointing at least one, and likely two or more) Supreme Court justices. Fear of the base has so far shown effective at keeping wayward Republicans in-line. Republicans also control nearly the 75% of state legislatures needed to pass constitutional amendments. So the prospect of an "enabling act" type amendment is actually plausible, so long as the grounds for it can be stirred up.
Stirring up? You have a president elect who directly coordinated actions with foreign state intelligence services to dig up dirt on his opponents (as now admitted to by the Russians, both the coordination and the giving the info to Wikileaks). He obviously has no qualms about this sort of thing. Now he's getting the keys to the candystore, so to speak - full control over US intelligence services. J. Edgar Hoover managed to maintain a disturbing level of control through such means, and he's far from the limit of what sort of pressures can be exerted. Things need not be only backroom, Hoover-style blackmail, but can also be very public "airing of dirty laundry" to rally the public against desired targets - political or public, foreign or domestic.
One thing that Trump thankfully lacks is a paramilitary. As long as this remains the case, I'll feel a lot more comfortable.
But still uneasy.
No, I don't think that it's at all likely Trump will try to achieve "President for Life" status. Honestly, that's near the bottom of my list of concerns, and it's a long list. But I think it's naive to pretend that it couldn't happen, given the right combination of provocations. Nobody in Germany in the 20s would have ever guessed that the 30s would see them in a Nazi dictatorship. The concept seemed the height of absurdity.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/moscow-had-contacts-with-trump-team-during-campaign-russian-diplomat-says/2016/11/10/28fb82fa-a73d-11e6-9bd6-184ab22d218e_story.html?tid=sm_tw [washingtonpost.com]
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White people who understand tech know better than to become a CEO. These people must not have any other option, or just think it'd be cool to be the boss of something.
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Maybe some disruption is good. It's hard to see how yet, but I'm hoping his ad-hoc trial-and-error style will accidentally find new optimums, like a genetic algorithm.
I realize there's a good chance this view is wrong and that he turns out to be a bull in a china shop (pun half-intended), but I'll keep an open mind.
Trump is such an unusual specimen that we don't have enough precedents to say what will actually happen. Get some pop-corn, and