Cutting H-1Bs Could Mean More Competition From China and India, Says GoDaddy CEO (cnbc.com) 660
Silicon Valley companies continue to express their concerns about the restrictions on H-1B visa program. The H-1B visa program -- which enables U.S. companies to hire foreign workers -- has become a political lightning rod but remains essential for American companies to hire the technical talent they need to compete on a global scale, said GoDaddy CEO Blake Irving. From his interview on CNBC: "We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country," he said. "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist." Irving was particularly concerned about overseas competition. The American university system is good at training foreign workers for tech jobs, and it is essential that the U.S. government allows them to stay in the country to fulfill U.S. jobs, he said. Otherwise, we train workers from countries like China and India and then send them back to those countries to set up tech ecosystems that compete with Silicon Valley.
I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only that, it is clear that some of these people support foreign nationalism while at the same time saying the US shouldn't be nationalist, Its okay for China and India to look out for their people, but the US is "Racist" if it looks out for its people.
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
If we have the H1B or other visas only for those that make say over $130K/yr, then that would help things a great deal....that way we let in the brains, but keep out the drones...
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Informative)
Hey, if it were ONLY the top of the folks in the fields, I don't think we'd have a problem with it...it is the drones coming over and sucking up the regular jobs there ARE people that can work on here.
This, exactly this.
In my team, we have two Indians on F1-OPT visas, who tried to get an H1-B in April. Both did not get selected in the lottery. These guys are newgrads, and very, very mediocre as wel. Definitely not top of the top, more top of the bottom. We had better candidates who were also citizens, but HR decided to hire these two because they are nice and cheap and we should be able to train them ourselves. It's been 18 months and they have yet to become productive.
H1-B is a farce.
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe you shouldn't let HR make your hiring decisions.
That is an utterly unAmerican thing to say, and quite frankly treasonous. Letting HR make your hiring decisions is a fundamental part of how American corporations work.
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:4, Interesting)
Exactly.
I agree with the concept of the H1B--it allows US companies to recruit top talent from around the world. But I have a hard time believing that there are 65,000-85,000 people a year [uscis.gov] who fit that description. Heck, "Operation Paperclip" [wikipedia.org] only brought in 1500 people and we started a space program with that!
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Or just good people who want the job driving the wages down.
I personally just took a job last month, where I told them out right, I want the Software Engineering job they are offering, and in addition to everything I'll bring to the table, that I also offered to work for them for a less than market rate (Basically a 50% paycut from previous job and about 20% under median rates).
Needless to say, I got the job. And also encouraging friends to start doing the same.
If we want to compete with those that want to
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Starting with YOU!
Re: (Score:3)
I personally just took a job last month, where I told them out right, I want the Software Engineering job they are offering, and in addition to everything I'll bring to the table, that I also offered to work for them for a less than market rate (Basically a 50% paycut from previous job and about 20% under median rates).
Needless to say, I got the job. And also encouraging friends to start doing the same.
If we want to compete with those that want to work for less, we need to be willing to work for less.
And I chose work for a lot less money, at a job I'll enjoy.
You've discovered the approach that everybody in academia uses, which is why academic positions pay (at most) half of what industry positions pay.
Did your living expenses halve themselves to match your income? Devaluing your skills for the win! The management, who aren't in a race to the bottom, really appreciate the money you've freed up for their extra bonuses.
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I know people in certain VERY new fields where american companies have more job openings than there are qualified people on earth for those jobs. These jobs would all pay well in excess of $150K/year and would not cost any american a job. It would actually create a lot more job for americans since each engineer/scientist hired usually results in more support jobs at the company (due to being able to make more products).
However due to how the H1-B system is abused it is really hard to get the people you need
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Then you probably have an dramatically over inflated sense of qualified. There are likely dozens of other professions people could step out of and adapt under the tutelage of anyone that dramatically over inflated definition includes and do just fine in far far less than five years. A huge part of the problem is companies need to develop the talent they need and instead they are trying to dump the job on universities. The method of learning used in universities is the antithesis of the mindset and kind of skill at learning that is the defining characteristic of someone with the talent to perform the tasks most of these H1B's are performing well.
Being unqualified and having to figure out what to do and how to do it on the fly is exactly what is creating the environment which cultivates the talents we are looking for. We are perfectly capable of hiring untested and unqualified talent and throwing into the fire under experienced people here if we drop this mindset that every seat must be filled with a god and the ageism that pushes out the best talent in the industry to shape those inexperienced people.
Re:I don't see the problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
On the contrary, there are plenty and american kids do learn (about as well as anyone, tech is a field where degrees are useless in most areas and people begin learning on the job). There is no shortage of tech talent in the US, this is a total fabrication. There IS some level of scarcity in the sense that there are few enough talented people out there that they can command high salaries and have leverage at the bargaining table, that is what these companies want to fix.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
By competition they mean a competition where the US is certain to lose. I don't like losing, let's not do that.
Utter Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country,"
Complete Bullshit.
What they mean is..."We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country that we can pay low wages and hold hostage with H1-B visas"
Maybe train the American kid first (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the University could just train the American kids instead.... I know... I'm throwing up in my mouth as I type it.
18 months is plenty (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want the equivalent of a College B.S. in machine learning 18 months of intense training is more than you'd actually get during your 4 years at college. possibly even more than a masters. If you are looking for PhD level, then 18 months maybe isn't there entirely. But over the next year or two of work experience, in a job emphasizing research in AI with a good mentor, would definitely produce pHD level graduates. I know this because I've seen it done at my company, producing major leaders through this process.
Re: (Score:3)
But you wouldn't get an equivalent of a college BS in machine learning. My BS in Computer Science was 120 credit hours. Semesters were approximately 4 months long. You'd have to take 27 credit hours a semester for 4 1/2 semesters in order to get the equivalent amount of just class time let alone the requirements out of class. You'd also be jamming so much through that the retention on a lot of it would be minimal.
If you cut out all the classes that weren't specific to machine learning, like your gen ed requ
It should be obvious, but ... (Score:3)
Also:
Vocational training is there for people to learn how to follow standard operating procedures.
Academic study is there for people to gain the understanding so that they can write the standard operating procedures.
Example - a bit over twenty years ago despite being utter crap at welding I could design weld joints in a difficult material that th
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:4, Informative)
This. Farmers understand the concept of seeds, and tilling a field, if they expect a usable harvest. Why can't CEOs understand that if you eat your seed grain, come harvest time, there isn't anything usable in the fields.
China and India are already competing. Having domestic workers changes nothing on this front, other than the fact that it will get people in the US coming back to STEM majors as opposed to going to other vocations (no such thing as filling the barn with clueless H-1Bs in law, accounting, trades, construction, and other items.)
What will no H-1B abuse bring? A benefit to everyone in the US as a whole, as opposed to the money just being sent back to India to family and never seen again.
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:5, Insightful)
How can we have "STEM" people when we're so busy teaching about things that have nothing to do with Reading, Writing and Math. Sure, we have well rounded people who know and tolerate all sorts of things but can't balance their checkbook, can't cook, can't manage to uphold free speech without rioting.
People want magical things happening, because hard work and effort is based on "old dead white men" ideas.
Take a look at the college campuses and realize that the American kids are rioting or hiding in their safe spaces, instead of learning.
Re: (Score:3)
Don't understand the need for English classes? Haven't been reading /. long, have you? :-)
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:4, Funny)
Well to be honest the concept of binary would complete blow a Gender Studies major's mind....
Can't (Score:4, Insightful)
How will American kids even have the chops to enter university with Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education ?
Re:Can't (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe...I dunno...local and state education officials, and the teachers themselves should shoulder the responsibility for educating kids instead of being controlled from Washington?
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We spend more per pupil than anyone in the world. Maybe it's being misspent?
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How will American kids even have the chops to enter university with Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education ?
Because she won't let the teacher's unions continue to undermine the quality of public education in the name of their own political and financial objectives? Seriously, why should parents who can't afford to live in good school districts be forced to send their kids to substandard schools? A simple voucher system where the parents choose the school and the money follows the student will produce some excellent competition. Of course, that is precisely what the teachers unions want to prevent. Ask yoursel
Re:Can't (Score:4, Insightful)
Because sending kids to religious schools that will teach creationism as fact will help develop STEM education in the US?
Yes, there are some crap teachers in public schools, but for-profit schools (including those where the for-profit nature is hidden) isn't the answer. Many teachers in public schools are dedicated professionals who are underpaid for their level of education.
Re:Could it be, you're stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
You live in a dream world. Those gifted but poor kids still won't be able to get the classes they need. Charter schools won't set up in poor areas because the potential administrators know they won't succeed.
The poor parents can't afford to gifted send their children to another district because they don't have the time and money. All that will happen is those poor kids will attend schools that are even more starved of resources because of the effects of vouchers.
The problem that Betsy DeVos wants to "solve" is that public schools don't teach religion and creationism.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Silly European, didn't you know that University is for rioting and taking gender study classes exclusively.
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems that as we stand right now, our education system is not working, right? I mean, that's the problem, there are not, today, enough students with good technical training coming out of the school and university system in America to fill these jobs.
Would you say our education system is "right wing?" That the teachers, the administrators generally hold right wing, conservative, or evil fascist opinions and operate the educational system accordingly? It seems to me the 14:1 liberal to conservative college professor ratio must be the problem. If we can just get rid of those last few conservative professors who have turned our school system into a right-wing indoctrination center then we'll finally have schools doing what they're supposed to be doing: turning out highly educated Gender Studies and Transafrican Eskimokin Studies majors ready to enter the workforce.
Re: (Score:3)
society promised would get them the good life.
Society didn't make this promise. The high school counselor who gets rated in her job by how many college applications go out made that promise. The colleges, starting with the trade schools like IT Tech make those promises. "Society" is sitting there saying "what kind of job do you think and African Studies major deserves?" And now there's the push for that African Studies major who has about enough skills to sweep the factory floor to be making $15/hr because he deserves it.
So they make it easy (except financially) for people to college.
You've overlooked the student l
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm really tired of this thread of thought. A degree in the humanities is not useless. I have a BA in English Literature and a master's degree in information science. I am a very well regarded virtualization and cloud engineer. A good education is a good education.
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm really tired of this thread of thought.
And I'm tired of anecdotal evidence trying to out-argue general results.
A degree in the humanities is not useless.
For most people, yes it is.
I have a BA in English Literature and a master's degree in information science.
I wasn't aware that "information science" was a humanities degree.
I am a very well regarded virtualization and cloud engineer.
Yes, we all know the high-school dropout who started his own billion dollar computer company without a day of college, or those who dropped out of college to start their career and flourished. The exceptions do not make the rule in this case.
A good education is a good education.
Did you learn how to use tautologies in your English Lit classes? A good education can be a good education and not be relevant in any way to the job that one wishes to be employed in.
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:4, Insightful)
Foreign students are there because they pay full bore tuition. Replacing them with American citizens means you also need to replace that revenue.
Uh, no, foreign students don't pay full tuition, particularly if they are from countries like India or China, which do not have a freely convertible currency. More often than not, they get some sort of assistantship or scholarship, and once they qualify for that, they get paid instate tuitions - the same as local students, and better than out of state students. So revenue-wise, there's no advantage to keeping them
However, the summary seems to conflate F1 graduates w/ H1B imports. The two are different, even if their process of naturalization may converge. F1 students are those who study in the US, get a degree and armed w/ that degree, get a job in the US. Since the only work environment they are familiar w/ is the US work environment, for them work is an apples to apples comparison w/ local graduates who take the same jobs. Only thing: their OPT is good only for 2 years, and after that, they have to get an H1B if they wanna continue.
The H1B imports that one sees from Infosys or Mahindra or those other Indian companies is different. They hire somebody in India who was used to Indian work conditions - much worse than here, then train them their way, and then when the reqs open, apply for whatever visa works - H1B, L1, B1.... and bring them here. These are people who are not culturally compatible w/ the culture here - be it the work culture or the culture in general, and where there is a good argument to be made that the only thing they do is depress wages. This is where they need to reform the program and separate out the specialists category from those who are better off as temporary workers.
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"not culturally compatible"? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
I've worked in technology for 20 years now, in several countries, and I've worked with people from many nations. I've seen good and bad from here and overseas - there's no pattern.
Re:Maybe train the American kid first (Score:5, Insightful)
"A Trump America is an isolationist America- afraid of the world."
Because everything is black and white, right? Maybe making it a little harder to get through the door isn't "isolationism", but the word sure is cool to use, right? Filled with all the evil, nasty and ignorance implications you could possibly throw at a wall to see if any of it sticks. Protectionism, yes. Isolationism? No.
Clearly the fairly unfiltered commercial traffic since the 1990s has damaged the average American. It certainly sounds like Perot's "sucking sound" prophecy was spot on... Maybe THAT isn't the answer either. Maybe... just MAYBE be a bit more "protectionist" rather than letting all the water flow downhill.
Note: I didn't vote for Trump -- I think he's a psychopath with poor impulse control and he scares me. That doesn't mean at least some of the stuff coming out of his mouth isn't worth considering.
Re: (Score:3)
isolationist America- afraid of the world.
reminds me of isolationist/feudal Japan back in the days, closed themselves off from everyone else. Later 1800s they realized they have to get themselves out of the 6th century or they will be overrun by other countries.
The IT shortage in america is a myth. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The IT shortage in america is a myth. (Score:5, Informative)
Here is some evidence to support the claim that the IT shortage is a myth:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-24/the-tech-worker-shortage-doesnt-really-exist [bloomberg.com]
http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth [ieee.org]
Re:The IT shortage in america is a myth. (Score:5, Interesting)
I once had a gig as a project manager. Had a budget, needed devs. I could have called Tata, and had a regiment come in fresh off the boat, moving in lockstep, but I found it was cheaper to post some ads at the CS department of the local universities, interview some very intelligent people, ask them some basic coding questions, then get the project going.
Was on time and on target with the dev team. However, the company I was with got bought out, and the whole division offshored.
I can find more talent in the town, in the relatively non-techie state I live in (Austin, Texas), than I ever could by playing the H-1B lottery.
Re:The IT shortage in america is a myth. (Score:5, Interesting)
the relatively non-techie state I live in (Austin, Texas)
Remind me, is Austin the third largest tech hub in the US behind Silicon Valley and Seattle or did Denver knock it down to fourth?
Relatively non-techie compared to what, fucking Missouri?
Re:The IT shortage in america is a myth. (Score:4, Informative)
I know wages have been flat for the last 8-10 years, I'm at the Senior level, and never get more than a less-than-inflation "cost of living" raise. The only reason I haven't fallen back is adding a Masters (which was trivial effort to do, but apparently impresses the HR types) and some certs. . .
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:inflation used to be a lot higher, too (Score:4, Informative)
Re:inflation used to be a lot higher, too (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
It probably depends. If other Americans lose their job so they can have cheap widgets, then they'll probably accept it. But if their own job goes away so other Americans can have cheap widgets, then they'll have a problem with it.
Japan more or less decided to have jobs instead of cheap widgets, and seem happy with their choice since there is little political pressure to switch it back to widget-orientation.
As far as GoDaddy's claim, there may be
Ahem.... (Score:5, Insightful)
> "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
That's fine - if you're looking for machine-learning scientists.
Unfortunately, the majority of the recipients of these H1B's are low paid scab labor, imported to cut labor costs.
Raising the cost of H1B's should take care of that loophole while still allowing GoDaddy to import their "machine-learning scientists".
Re:Ahem.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This. The problem is not the count of H1-Bs allowed in. The more of the world's top talent that comes to America, the better. The problem is the program is abused so regularly that the abuse has become the norm. The current House bill to raise the H1-B minimum wage to $130k, and to allocate all H1-B slots based on salary rather than lottery - this is a great fix. Bi-partisan support, apparently.
Re:Ahem.... (Score:5, Insightful)
this is not about getting another Albert Einstein. We would fast-track citizenship for something like that. This is about TEMP workers you can churn through and discard back to india or wherever they want to discard them when they are done getting the milk for free.
Re: (Score:2)
I've known around 100 H1-B workers in my career. I only know 2 that have permanently left the US, and one of those moved to Australia. Most have green cards now.
It seems like you're talking about the abuse of the system Do you think that would continue when you had to pay an H1-B $130K+?
Re: (Score:3)
And GoDaddy is not a Silicon Valley company as TFS seems to imply. But who bothers with fact checking?
GoDaddy? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
When I hear the name GoDaddy, all I can think about is Nikki Cappelli.
reprioritizing, not cutting (Score:5, Interesting)
The Trump administration is considering reprioritizing H-1B visas. Right now, such visas are given out based on a lottery around April 1, which is utterly irrational and chaotic; it causes outsourcing firms to flood the visa application process with numerous fake applications, instead of the visas going to US companies that actually need those workers. Under the new rules, H-1B visas would be given to the highest paid workers and with precedence to people graduating from US universities. No matter what you think about the absolute number of H-1B visas, that's a good change to the immigration program.
If, in addition, the US reduces the number of work visas, that would result in more foreign competition, unless made up for elsewhere. But Trump has generally advocated a merit-based immigration system, which may mean more skilled immigrants (as opposed to H-1B visa holders) and less unskilled labor and family-based immigration. Again, that seems like a win-win.
Of course, we'll have to see what he actually does. The Orange One is a bit unpredictable and tends to act rashly.
Re: (Score:2)
So the new system artificially inflates wages?
Re:reprioritizing, not cutting (Score:5, Insightful)
The old system artificially deflated wages. There is no free market, so pick your poison.
Re: (Score:2)
If you have a resource that's cheap and you wall it off, what do you call that? Typically, we call it "artificial scarcity." Somehow it's different if the resource is labor.
I suggest you study a history of guilds--something we now call "Racketeering".
Re:reprioritizing, not cutting (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a resource that's cheap and you wall it off, what do you call that? Typically, we call it "artificial scarcity." Somehow it's different if the resource is labor.
Yes, yes it is. That's why we banned slavery some time ago: because we recognized that human beings are more than just a resource. It's also why we restrict strip mining operations, require environment impact analysis, and set minimum wages, despite the fact that all of those artificially increase costs. Because the moral and practical consequences of *not* doing so outweight the financial burdens.
Re:reprioritizing, not cutting (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, These proposed changes would mean America would sort of be in a union where the government would work on behalf on the people instead of corporate interests.
Re: (Score:2)
im beginning to suspect that the acting rashly is all part of the scam. II read excepts of his book, the art of the deal, and it seems like this scam is used consistently to rattle and get the opponent to make negotiating mistakes. I suppose its possible that he's not hot tempered and just masterful and playing one, but the image of Yosemite Sam is still pretty funny.
Disney (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Disney (Score:5, Informative)
Dont forget Edison Electric in california... they did the same thing while drawing state and federal subsidies.
Re:Disney (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem w/ all these employers is that they are excessively picky, and want people who have 'domain knowledge' i.e. if they're wanted in a company like Verisign, then they want somebody from a company in the same sector. So if they are looking for programmers in say, Securities, then they'll look at Wells, BofA, Chase, et al, tossing in requirements like familiarity w/ Bond Math. When they don't get them, they'll start looking for people w/ visas, and asking to import them. It's hard for the Department of Labor to tell them to accept someone w/ some of the qualifications and train them or get them experienced in the segment that's wanting
simple solution to the h1b problem (Score:3)
Instead of restricting the number of h1b's, it would be simpler if we just taxed them. It could be a flat fee like 20k/year per h1b or it could be a percentage like 20% of payroll. Either way, it would allow companies to hire as many h1b candidates as they need but still give them an incentive to hire local talent first. The number one complain everyone has with h1b is that h1b employees are willing to work for less but if you added a yearly surcharge to the h1b then that argument becomes void because it would then be cheaper to hire local talent than h1b. You could even go to 50% or 100% if you needed to but to me a surcharge makes more sense than a hiring cap. A 50% surcharge would make local talent at 149k cheaper to hire than a h1b at 100k which would completely get rid of the complain that the only reason companies hire h1b is to save money not because the talent isn't available.
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, studies of the minimum wage over the years has shown that when minimum wage is increased, it results in an upward pressure on wages across the board, which is why unions traditionally have supported it. It's not just the entry level or bottom rung people whose wages increase: it's everybody's, in order to maintain the status and keep entry level workers from overtaking their superiors in terms of earnings. The end result of minimum wages is to discourage hiring people at that level, whose worth
who wants boring stress jobs? (Score:2)
While many on /., including me, do engineering because we are geeky and love the challenge, that's not the case for average people. For average people, programming or tinkering with computers are boring and stressful jobs. They might choose to do it because the field has brighter employment future. That's why Americans don't want to take up the jobs. Even in China, the newer generation would avoid engineering and opt for finance or entertainment, because as the newer generations grow up a richer economy and
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Those two statements are rather at odds, nonetheless, you can also make the other jobs dimmer in relation to engineering by removing a superfluous lock-out of US workers in that field.
Obviously (Score:4, Funny)
I can't hire System Engineers for $9 hour so obviously the problem is that there aren't enough System Engineers here.
Undermining the US position (Score:2, Interesting)
A lot of the moves that new administration suggested as making things better for the US worker, actually undermines the USA's position in the world and actually will end up potentially hurting jobs. Often the "take it all" approach it actually the less ideal position of giving up a little.
Helping NATO's members and the UN, while maybe not the best sounding when it comes to money, it does end up allowing the US to have sway over the politics of other countries and therefore help keep the US as a focal point
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This sounds like the Trudeau position: "If you kill your enemies, they win." Clearly we must further depress American wages and put more Americans out of work in order for the American worker to prosper.
Translation: (Score:3)
We the elists CEOs who like fucking over US programmers are going seriously take it in the ass if we eliminate H1B visa's! We may be forced to close and live on the same crap income we planned for our programmers! Whaaaaahh.. my pussy hurts! Make it stop!
On the job training (Score:2)
The US is screwed (Score:4, Interesting)
No matter the issue, Trump doesn't understand anything other ratings and popularity. He gets a certain segment of the population riled up with really simple ideas 1) we're bringing jobs back 2) every problem you have is the fault of this group of people 3) if the jobs don't come back, it the fault of another group of people
He sets the stage for other people to fight it out and get attention for himself. He has absolutely no interest in solving problems, no ability to understand what his actions do, and no empathy for the people he affects.
This shit will continue.
I work with dozens of H1B visa holders. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr. I was fine with a new college grad, and I still couldn't find anyone. Eventually I get an email from someone in Turkey, and we hired her. She's amazing. However if this shit with the H1B's goes through, we can't pay her and she'll have to go back. I won't be able to fill the position. We'll have to let go 6 employees whom we can't replace. If just this H4E spousal visa shit happens, then my employee's husband will have to leave. The spouses of 3 of our employees would have to leave.
Why can't we find the right people here? I honestly don't know. I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you. I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
Re:The US is screwed (Score:5, Insightful)
I work with dozens of H1B visa holders. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr. I was fine with a new college grad, and I still couldn't find anyone. Eventually I get an email from someone in Turkey, and we hired her. She's amazing. However if this shit with the H1B's goes through, we can't pay her and she'll have to go back. I won't be able to fill the position. We'll have to let go 6 employees whom we can't replace. I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you. I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
This is an easy one: You aren't paying enough. You wouldn't do your job for less than what you could get doing it elsewhere either.
Just because something costs more than you want to pay doesn't entitle you to cheap labor. I want my entire house painted for $500. I went to every school and said "Hey if you can hold a paint brush I will give you $500" and for some reason nobody was interested. Therefor I am entitled to hire cheap slave labor.
Hey why pay anything at all? Just get actual slaves, think of the savings.
Re:The US is screwed (Score:5, Insightful)
You are trying to convince us that the NIH would not let you pay more? Yeah, right.
Re:The US is screwed (Score:5, Informative)
Clearly, someone dropped the ball writing grant application.
Re:The US is screwed (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm. Let me think for a second. Oh, here it is:
Re:The US is screwed (Score:5, Insightful)
You were trying to find a college educated programmer to work in NYC for 45k/yr and had no luck? I think I found your problem.
Re: (Score:2)
I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr. I was fine with a new college grad, and I still couldn't find anyone
I think virtually all of us know several people who can not find work as a developer. So for this claim to be true, you have to be utterly incompetent at recruiting.
Why can't we find the right people here? I honestly don't know. I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you. I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
If this is actually true, you need to find out why from the people that rejected you.
For example, you don't specify where you are located, but there's plenty of places in the US where new CS grads make >$50k/year and you're offering $45k. So the people that rejected you would tell you "You do not pay enough".
I hope this stays modded up (Score:5, Informative)
If only to be the epitome of the problem.
Let make this analogous to the the poor farmers in the US who "can't find anyone to work those jobs".
"
I work with dozens of Illegal immigrants. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in Apple Picking and needed a picker at $5k/yr. I was fine with a kid dropped out of high school, and I still couldn't find anyone. Eventually I get an email from someone in Mexico, and we hired her. She's amazing. However if this shit with the Illegals goes through, we can't pay her (a living wage) and she'll have to go back. I won't be able to fill the position. We'll have to let go 6 employees whom we can't replace (or marginally raise prices as everyone else will helping to boost a cyclical economy).
Why can't we find the right people here? I honestly don't know (I do but I want to address my unwillingness to pay the market price for talent). I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you (as little as I possibly can, maybe call you an intern and not at all). I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
"
YOU SIR PROVE OUR POINT (Score:4, Informative)
"I work with dozens of H1B visa holders. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr."
Ya, you were budgeted $45K/year. That's not enough to live on in most of the country, especially not with student loans that an education in the field requires. So basically, what you're saying is your failure to find a candidate had NOTHING to do with their abilities or skills. It simply was a matter of you not being willing to pay a reasonable salary. So you took advantage of someone from a second world country.
Congrats.....
10 to 1, you're also a registered Democrat or an Independent who voted for Hillary.
Long term problems require long term solutions (Score:2)
" You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist"
He is right you can't, however that does not mean we do not need to change the system to encourage more American talent to go down this route. This is actually why a bidding system for H1Bs would be great. People with high level skills will continue to be allowed in. Also those with high potential will also be brought in. The Low skill low talent low cost hacks will be priced out. We have enough people who can fill that
GoDaddy's location in the Seattle area... (Score:2, Insightful)
is very, very nice. It's on Lake Washington in a new building between Kirkland and Bellevue which are both booming tech cities. I have a couple of friends that work there, and they now only hire low-cost Indians. I had two interns that were making $10 per hour that are now full-time employees there making $12 after they graduated from Univ of Washington. They're hiring incompetent, low-cost people that can't do the job. Of course they want to keep that pipeline of cheap idiots open.
yeah (Score:2)
uh huh (Score:4, Insightful)
And most of those 60K plus workers are machine learning people earning less than 130K/year? The program cuts won't hurt those guys. They WILL hurt the guys coming in at 60K (the minimum) who are replacing the 45-50 year old programmers earning 100-140K, that they are replacing at less than half the cost, that said 45-50 workers have to TRAIN to do their job
More the reason (Score:2)
If the Godaddy CEO doesn't like it... (Score:5, Insightful)
... it's probably a good thing.
I think H1b's are a missed opportunity (Score:3)
I went to the US for my Master's in a top-25 state uni. I was good, so I didn't even have to pay after the first semester (research assistanship). I worked with an H1b for 3 years (at a competitive rate), but when I was close to renewal, we'd have to file on the first day and hope we were not late competing with all the outsourcing companies bringing free labor, then my wife who was also finishing her degree would have to get a separate H1b, because H1b's don't allow your dependents to work, so both would have to be timed perfectly... and if any of our employers ran out of business etc, we'd have to scramble to get another to continue our visa... at which point I said, yeah, right, screw that, let's go back to Europe, which is what several of my classmates eventually did...
So, why provide world-leading education and then send them away? Forget about setting arbitrary wage minimums - that doesn't even make sense given how much wages are dependent on location in the US. Give people who have post-grad studies in good US universities a way to stay without weird restrictions like being tied to a job, or dependents who can't work etc, instead of sending them away and instead importing low-cost unskilled labor.
Raising H1B minimum wage (Score:2)
I don't see the problem. If their is literally not a single American that can fill the position, then you should have no trouble paying the H1B that does fill the role what he is worth.
I call b.s. (Score:2)
You can't (Score:2)
"You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
I swear, many of the H1B visa holders I've met, went thru an 18 week Java program to list it on their resume.
Heck, even a number of my friends here on H1B visas want them to be cut back. It's getting to hard for them to switch jobs.
Pick one (Score:5, Insightful)
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country"
"Forced to train H1B replacement"
Pick one.
Bullshit (Score:3)
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country," he said. "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
While the second part of that statement may be true, the first is not for the vast, vast majority of H-1B positions.
Do we really not have enough people that know Java, for example? I call bullshit.
FFS, we invented Java, and to claim that the US doesn't have enough skilled Java programmers to fill the demand is just plain bullshit. This is all about getting workers below-scale and who are slavishly compliant because they don't want to be sent back to whatever jobless, 3rd-world shithole they came from.
Corporate owned media (Score:4, Insightful)
Is anyone shocked that corporate-owned media is serving up stories and interviews with corporate bosses that favor corporate profits? Where are the interviews with workers who lost their jobs?
I'm still puzzled at why there isn't any anger from rank-and-file liberals at how the corporate interests infiltrated and took over the liberal movement to the point where every liberal newspaper is advocating policies that favor corporate profits, such as globalization and importing cheap labor. There was a brief backlash in the form of the Bernie movement, but the corporate liberals squashed that pretty quick in favor of their stooge Clinton.
H-1B = cheap foreign labor (Score:3)
We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country
Utter crap. Should I point this guy to the story about how Disney imported a bunch of H-1B workers... and then had their CURRENT EMPLOYEES train them? The H1-B either needs to be shuttered completely, or they need to require that the H-1B worker be paid 50% above the industry average. Take away the incentive to use them as cheap replacement labor.
Hard Numbers and Facts about STEM wages (Score:3)
According to ECON101, when demand outstrips supply, the price of a good goes up.
In this case, that means wages so I decided to take a look. According to the Federal Bureau of lagor statistics [bls.gov], STEM salaries grew at ~2% a year from 2013-2015 nationally. Meanwhile wages for "Computer Systems Design and Related Services" grew at ~2.3 a year. Inflation last year was 2.1% [usinflatio...ulator.com] so if there is a STEM shortage, it must be very small.
In comparison if you are part of the ownership class, your NASDAQ index fund grew by 50% [yahoo.com].
Anyone else have any good numbers to back up the anecdotes?
Re: (Score:2)
said every undocumented mexican immigrant never. The goal is to make a shit ton of money here and move back and live life like a king in a 3rd world shithole. A Hundred thousand goes a long way in some of these places.
Re: (Score:2)
I dont know... I saw this self cleaning toilet the other day... lol surely those are going sell like wildfire.