The Videogame Industry Is Fighting 'Right To Repair' Laws (vice.com) 266
An anonymous reader quotes Motherboard:
The video game industry is lobbying against legislation that would make it easier for gamers to repair their consoles and for consumers to repair all electronics more generally. The Entertainment Software Association, a trade organization that includes Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, as well as dozens of video game developers and publishers, is opposing a "right to repair" bill in Nebraska, which would give hardware manufacturers fewer rights to control the end-of-life of electronics that they have sold to their customers...
Bills making their way through the Nebraska, New York, Minnesota, Wyoming, Tennessee, Kansas, Massachusetts, and Illinois statehouses will require manufacturers to sell replacement parts and repair tools to independent repair companies and consumers at the same price they are sold to authorized repair centers. The bill also requires that manufacturers make diagnostic manuals public and requires them to offer software tools or firmware to revert an electronic device to its original functioning state in the case that software locks that prevent independent repair are built into a device. The bills are a huge threat to the repair monopolies these companies have enjoyed, and so just about every major manufacturer has brought lobbyists to Nebraska, where the legislation is currently furthest along... This setup has allowed companies like Apple to monopolize iPhone repair, John Deere to monopolize tractor repair, and Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo to monopolize console repair...
Motherboard's reporter was unable to get a comment from Microsoft, Apple, and Sony, and adds that "In two years of covering this issue, no manufacturer has ever spoken to me about it either on or off the record."
Bills making their way through the Nebraska, New York, Minnesota, Wyoming, Tennessee, Kansas, Massachusetts, and Illinois statehouses will require manufacturers to sell replacement parts and repair tools to independent repair companies and consumers at the same price they are sold to authorized repair centers. The bill also requires that manufacturers make diagnostic manuals public and requires them to offer software tools or firmware to revert an electronic device to its original functioning state in the case that software locks that prevent independent repair are built into a device. The bills are a huge threat to the repair monopolies these companies have enjoyed, and so just about every major manufacturer has brought lobbyists to Nebraska, where the legislation is currently furthest along... This setup has allowed companies like Apple to monopolize iPhone repair, John Deere to monopolize tractor repair, and Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo to monopolize console repair...
Motherboard's reporter was unable to get a comment from Microsoft, Apple, and Sony, and adds that "In two years of covering this issue, no manufacturer has ever spoken to me about it either on or off the record."
definitions? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:definitions? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's interesting to read the background on this. It's really about warranties.
Federal law is that a company can't insist that you use a particular vendor for repair or servicing to maintain a warranty. Now, that's unusual to think about because that's not what we're used to seeing in reality.
The reality is that if opening or servicing the electronics is so convoluted and difficult that damage is nearly certain when anyone without training opens it, then the warranty is voided by that damage. The training materials and tooling that are used by companies to train their own people in how to properly repair the electronics without damage would be made available to consumers in "right to repair" legislation.
If a company decides to make something that cannot be repaired... well, ok. It may be that laws like this simply push manufacturers to shut down their internal repair groups and stop supporting any warranty or repair at all.
Re:definitions? (Score:5, Insightful)
Much of that "difficulty" is artificially introduced by the console developer, to discourage experimentation and reverse engineering attempts, in order to keep the console "secure."
EG, things like the E-Fuses in the 360 preventing the flashing of older firmwares over the top of newer ones, etc.
They ONLY reason they exist, *IS TO BRICK CONSOLES*, when people attempt to gain control of the console.
Re: definitions? (Score:3)
Re:definitions? (Score:4, Interesting)
No, they still want to sell their devices. So what if some people repair their own? Are they going to shut down the entire product line for a few malcontents? Have an unrepairable by any means product will drive most people away.
Re: definitions? (Score:5, Informative)
You're thinking direct computer hardware. Nebraska is thinking tractors and farm equipment. Locking farmers into long term hugely expensive repair contracts on absolutely critical pieces of equipment has become the norm for many "tractor" companies. When one piece of equipment costs millions and you need to spend thousands or more to recalibrate after some common mishap or loose your harvest then it's not so trivial.
Re: definitions? (Score:5, Informative)
You're thinking direct computer hardware. Nebraska is thinking tractors and farm equipment. Locking farmers into long term hugely expensive repair contracts on absolutely critical pieces of equipment has become the norm for many "tractor" companies. When one piece of equipment costs millions and you need to spend thousands or more to recalibrate after some common mishap or loose your harvest then it's not so trivial.
This. Why do you think it's starting in Nebraska?
There are quite a few electronic objects out there that having nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony. There is a huge outcry amongst farmers and small industries with the trend towards essentially leasing complex expensive equipment even if you buy it. Farmers have been sued for the temerity of trying to fix their own gear. For John Deere stuff, you could not even buy parts that just plug into the system - they had to be 'installed' by the dealer. When they could get around to it.
IIRC, Deere got some really bad press about that a awhile back and at least lets you plug things back in (that you buy at the Deer store). It is a much larger problem than a dead X-box.
There are more things, Horatio, then are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Re: definitions? (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. ...
John Deere is using copyright and the DMCA to keep the farmers who spend 150K+ on their tractor or farm equipment from working on their own property.
Or is it really the farmers property? Apparently not according to Deere.
That is why these bills are in farm country, the populous of these states don't care about game consoles or Blu Ray players, a tractor, absolutely, a game console not so much.
The farmers want to be able to work on their property, Deere says otherwise.
Take a read here: https://www.wired.com/2015/04/... [slashdot.org]
here: http://modernfarmer.com/2016/0... [slashdot.org]
and here http://www.npr.org/sections/al... [slashdot.org]
All because software is used in a number of places in the vehicle
Automobiles, now also because of software, are covered under the DMCA , can Ford or GM now claim the same as Deere?
Sorry, but you really don't own that Ford GT 350 or that Corvette Sting Ray you think you own.
How long before Ford, GM or any other automobile manufacturer for that matter do what Deere has done?
The fact that they can do this, should scare anyone.
That is why this type of legislation is needed everywhere.
It is not about game consoles, it is about much, much more.
The DMCA was bad legislation 20 years ago when it was passed.
This really proves it.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
the populous of these states don't care about game consoles or Blu Ray players
Populace.
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The problem they have with it is that people would repair the fault that their console only does what its manufacturer wants.
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Maybe, maybe not. When is the last time you took repairability into account before making a purchase?
I do as much as possible. But I'm old and still remember when things were built with that in mind. Granted, things like televisions are generally not considered repairable. Usually by the time they malfunction and are out of warranty, it's cheaper to purchase a new one that is usually better anyhow.
I still build all of my desktop computers because I can repair and upgrade them continually. I always consider the ease of working on a car before I purchase one too. Of course I don't do as much of my own me
MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd's (Score:5, Insightful)
MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd's (much cheaper ones) in the 360. And the 360 used Ext case ones. At the same time the ps3 was open to any 2.5 one.
Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' (Score:5, Interesting)
Want to know the actual difference between a "legitimate" HDD, and a not-legitimate one?
A small PNG image file loaded onto some magic sectors, and an 8 byte magic number written directly afterward. The drive's firmware was default factory, but only a small handful of drives were supported.
That image was of the microsoft logo.
Yes. The presence or absence of that little png file is SO TOTALLY going to change how a game is played online. /s
No-- Microsoft KNEW that they were vastly overcharging for a COTS component that was not special in any way except for the data stored on the platter, which is very inexpensive to replicate. They did not care. They were the gatekeepers, and were milking people dry by purposefully selling base systems without HDDs, or with very tiny ones, while pushing digital downloads.
Know what else? When it came to the "USB" storage options, I put various very high speed USB2.0 devices that I had PERSONALLY TESTED the raw performance of and verified that they were bitching fast, on my 360 to see if MS was full of shit when the console did its own testing-- Sure enough, it was premium bullshit. It would consistently say the device did not meet recommended speed requirements. Know what I did? I went out and bought one of the shitty USB memory sticks MS was hawking, and tested it myself. It underperformed compared to the units I had been attaching. The magic? The USB string-- For real.
Bullshit. Premium bullshit all around, and people just ignore it, because there is no alternative. Fuck that noise.
Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' (Score:5, Interesting)
The Gameboy uses a similar trick - I mean the original one, the first. The firmware in the device (such as it is, it's really tiny) checks for the presence of a certain byte sequence, an encoded image. If the bytes match expectations, it gets displayed. If they aren't there, the firmware locks the device. That's why if you power it on without a cartridge in you see a scrolling blank box: The image is the Nintendo logo.
The intention was to use trademark law to prevent unlicensed publishers selling games: In order to make a game cartridge run on the Gameboy, it had to include the Nintendo logo, and thus any unlicensed publishers would get sued by Nintendo for trademark infringement. I understand that a later supreme court ruling determined that a trademark could not be considered a trademark if it was incorporated into a functional element, but that was post-Gameboy.
I'm guessing Microsoft pull the same trick. Perhaps it still works in some countries.
Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' (Score:5, Informative)
USB2.0 is faster than many optical disc drives, AC.
For reference, the max bandwidth of USB2.0 is 480mbit, or about 60MB/sec.
A typical DVD drive (we will even say that this is a fancy 12x drive, just to give it the benefit of the doubt), such as found in an xbox360, has a max potential bandwidth of 132mbits. (16.5MB/sec)
So YES, AC. A "Fast" USB2.0 device is one that favors the top possible speed allowable by the bus, which mechanical disk drives have no problems whatsoever providing.
The drives in question were capable of sustained sequential reads in excess of 40MB/sec, and arbitrary random reads of about 20mb/sec.
The Microsoft branded flash module? about half that.
Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' (Score:5, Informative)
That was because you had to mod the console to use your own HDD originally, you weren't banned for using your own HDD, you were banned for breaking the online service terms and conditions of not using a modded console.
Those terms and service were illegal right on their face, because the Magnuson-Moss act prohibits voiding a warranty for a repair if the repair uses compatible parts. And the video game companies already lost the legal battle to prohibit people from using their trademarks as an unlock; if you make that the unlock, then you simultaneously give everyone permission to use it for that purpose.
Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' (Score:5, Informative)
And the video game companies already lost the legal battle to prohibit people from using their trademarks as an unlock; if you make that the unlock, then you simultaneously give everyone permission to use it for that purpose.
Specifically, in the case Sega vs Accolade [wikipedia.org].
Re:definitions? (Score:5, Informative)
Federal law says no such thing. You're presumably referencing the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act [cornell.edu], which prohibits
If warranty work is provided free (i.e. parts and labor warranty), there's no issue. In fact, the Act refers to the use of authorized agents:
No, a car manufacturer can't require you to get oil changes from their dealer, unless they provide those changes free as part of the warranty. But if a belt breaks, they can require you get it repaired at a dealer if you want warranty coverage, since the warranty pays for both parts and labor.
You're probably also under the false impression that a warrantor has to somehow "prove" a user modification caused an otherwise warranted issue in order to deny coverage. Nope - if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.
Read the Act, it's short and not a hard read.
Re: (Score:2)
You're probably also under the false impression that a warrantor has to somehow "prove" a user modification caused an otherwise warranted issue in order to deny coverage. Nope - if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.
Right, if you want protection under the act, you'll have to bring a lawsuit. It's not automatic, since district attorneys are useless fucks 99% of the time, chasing office and not justice.
Re:definitions? (Score:5, Informative)
What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit?
What you're describing is using a RaW (Rules as Written) legal strategy, and in the context of this type of legislation, this is usually not a winning approach because it clearly contradict the intent of the law. A RaW approach is better suited to administrative matters, such as a DMV dispute.
Re: (Score:2)
What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit?
Well, presumably the law stops them. I'm sure that the actual text of the law isn't a single sentence, "We hereby require manufacturers to make repair manuals and parts available to the general public." This is why these laws get into hundreds of pages, and sometimes set up regulatory bodies to manage them - to try and cover all of those sorts of loopholes and crafty ways which companies employ to try and wriggle around them. They're not always successful, but that's what it takes to have any chance of maki
Re:definitions? (Score:5, Insightful)
So IMHO there's nothing wrong with them saying "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" so long as third parties are allowed to publish alternative manuals and supply alternative parts.
Re:definitions? (Score:4, Informative)
Do you still have the book? If yes and it can't be found online, then scan it (or if you don't want the manual anymore then i guess you can send it) and contribute to http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/
Re: (Score:3)
I think the book was this one (published 1920, going now for ten Bristish pounds):
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7791062620&searchurl=tn%3Dthe%2Bbook%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bford%
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LOL, it apparently even featured ads for third-party Model T part manufacturers as well:
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]:
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What's happened for a very long time is third party manuals. My Grandmother's copy of "Book of The Ford" was a guide to repairing the Model T and was not written by the Ford Motor Company. That was in the early 1920s and was nowhere near the first edition.
Back then, it was reasonable to make repairs to a vehicle with nothing but basic mechanical knowledge. Today, it isn't. You need torque specs (which aren't just based on bolt sizes no matter how much people want that to be true) and the codes to instruct the computers as to what to do. Those codes are in the official documentation most of the time, for recoding the PCM and such. The only way they get into the Haynes or Chilton's (etc.) is if someone gets them out of the official book. Those codes are facts,
This type of legal protection for consumers.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sticky: ethically obvious (Score:4)
From the point where it is actually implemented, onwards.
The rights of people who have done no wrong are (okay, should be) higher priority.
Ideally, create fair laws that describe the bounds of legitimate behavior. Punish people who break these laws. Don't do things to people who are not breaking the law that prevent them from doing legitimate things based on the idea that someone, somewhere, might break the law.
The problem with DRM (Digital Rights Management) as it is presently constituted, is that the only rights that are being managed are those of the publishers. The rights of the consumer are being roundly trampled. It's appalling, really.
I can still remember (Score:2, Interesting)
When you brought a Sony radio there would be a schematic sheet inside the case so you could repair the electrical device yourself.
Re: (Score:2)
Back from the days when Sony was actually a reputable company, innovative and consumer oriented.
Yes, kids, back when we were young, they actually were. Almost impossible to fathom today.
They did it to themselves (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
There is no such thing as a 10 minute repair. It can take that long to unpack the box it's shipped in. More like 2 hours. Add to that all of the other people involved, receiving, shipping, etc.
$60 part, $200 in labor and ancillary costs. And it's a business, they want to make a profit. You're at $300.
Re:They did it to themselves (Score:4, Informative)
I had a user break a screen on a Lenovo T540p laptop. It was 2 months out of warranty, so I asked Lenovo for a quote for repair.
They came back with 600$. We bought the laptop NEW for less than 900$.
The cost of the screen from the manufacturer was 70$. There are 10 screws in total that hold both the plastic case, and LCD in place. Without a manual, and on the first try it took me less than 15 minutes is dissemble the display enough that I could replace it. Expecting 500+ dollars for what is 15 minutes of work, and MAYBE another 30 to get it shipped back out is utterly insane.
In trying to replace the fans in a 2011 macbook pro this December, Apple quoted me about 150$, but they had to order the parts. I said go ahead, just so I could have some fans with an Apple warranty with them. I did tell them that I couldn't leave the laptop overnight, and work had to be done same day.
3 weeks, and 4 phone calls later they couldn't fit me in with a tech and I'd have to leave the laptop overnight and they could 'probably' have it ready by the end of the next day. Instead, I spent 15 minutes online, got 2 replacement fans for less than 50$, had them delivered 2 day later and 16 screws and 7 minutes later had replaced both fans immediately after receiving them.
Re:They did it to themselves (Score:4, Insightful)
If you were running a shop fixing these things, you would have some process surrounding the job which took into account paperwork, getting the parts and laptop to the bench, opening the parts (which would no doubt be packaged up the wazoo), installing them, finishing paperwork, putting the laptop back and dealing with the old parts (electronics waste process) and putting the laptop back on the pickup shelf.
You'd be crazy if you didn't bill this as a one hour job and covering your labor costs would make it a $200 repair pretty easily. And if you were a smart business person, you'd probably also survey the market and price according to market options -- ie, buying a new laptop for $900 -- and extract another $100 in pricing.
Bam. $300 repair job. Sure, Lenovo's pricing is way out of line but they are in the business of selling new laptops, so they are going to structure pricing to motivate you to buy a new laptop.
But in the bigger picture, people fixing things as a business have other costs to consider that have to met by their labor charges. There's no such thing as pricing a labor job based solely on the time to do the primary repair. The *process* takes longer and that process is necessary to run the business and that cost has to be covered. Your personal repair speed isn't the basis of a business process.
Re: (Score:2)
Charging someone $300 to repair something worth $400 new is not a sound business model.
Re:They did it to themselves (Score:5, Insightful)
You're correct about the morality of it, but it's been a sound business model since planned obsolesence was first thought of.
It's a better long-term business strategy to keep selling another unit to a customer - frequently and repeatedly - rather than make a product that is 1. long lived (reliable), and 2. economically repairable.
Farming hardware - tractors, harvesters, etc - has traditionally been *very* reliable and long-lived. In other words, what you might call "overbuilt". They have a hard time comprehending why their computers don't last longer than 3-4 years. I have to try to explain modern economics to them.
Re: (Score:3)
Farming hardware - tractors, harvesters, etc - has traditionally been *very* reliable and long-lived. In other words, what you might call "overbuilt". They have a hard time comprehending why their computers don't last longer than 3-4 years. I have to try to explain modern economics to them.
Is there perhaps a larger moral to be learned from this? Is there something about farm equipment -- or FARMERS -- that's different?
Just a thought, but farming is one job that actually requires long-term financial planning. I've known a surprising number of people who appear to live "paycheck-to-paycheck." Even smart people with advanced degrees -- some of them with advanced math skills. But they simply can't manage money enough to not spend basically everything that's in their bank account before the
Commercial grade not consumer grade (Score:4, Informative)
Not really IMHO.
They are at the same level as people who buy industrial plant and expect it to last for decades as well.
They are buying commercial grade equipment and expect commercial grade parts availability instead of the cheap short lifetime stuff the retail consumer is expected to put up with. I once visited a foundry for an agricultural pump manufacturer. They had the patterns for up to 70 year old equipment and cast those parts every now and again to maintain their policy of "lifetime" support. While that's an extreme example that is what is sometimes expected of equipment that is used in production instead of the throwaway consumer items we are expected to put up with.
Re: (Score:2)
Too bad the planet won't take much more of it, but hey, you gotta mind the next quarter's results, that's what is really important...
Re: (Score:2)
You have to explain to them why a $300K tractor lasts longer than a $600 laptop?
Seriously though, consumer electronics are made as cheaply as possible. Whether it's planned obsolescence or consumer preference - that's the way it is. My assumption is that people look at a $600 bargain laptop and it seems to work just as well as the $3000 "professional" model, so they buy the cheap one, then complain when it conks out after a couple of years.
Re: (Score:2)
Welcome to the disparity of paying an electronics bench tech a reasonable wage versus your subsidized game console price designed to get you to buy it and $100 each games.
If you want minimum wage pay to the bench techs, then you must accept your own wages to be dropped to minimum wage as well.
Re: (Score:2)
What's more, most of the manufacturers (from phones to consoles to laptops) don't give a crap about your data and will likely replace your unit with a refurb rather than trying a direct repair. Your game saves? Gone. The photos of your kid? Gone. Your dissertation? Gone. Your accounts? Gone. Most independent repairers will care. Dead IPhone because you got caught in the rain? Your headphone jack broke? The charge connector broke? Apple (or any other manufacturer) don't care and will likely charge yo
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I picked up an old Asus netbook for like $50, and it it had a bios setup password. Asus refused to tell anyone how to clear it (pulling the cmos battery doesn't work) and insisted the only fix was to send it to a service center.
I did eventually find a way to clear it using a command-line bios update though.
Re: (Score:2)
I would simply short the power pins of the flash chip on boot. Panasonic toughbook hada high security option in the CF-31 that you could lock the bios and not even panasonic could unlock it. I did on 30 of them by taking a 9V battery and blowing up the security chip on the board.
Re: (Score:2)
The repair vendors often also take the path of least resistance. Cracked Samsung Galaxy S5 mini, Samsung wanted $200 for the repair (they would have replaced the display assembly). Cornershop store wanted $140 (they would have replaced the display assembly).
I bought replacement equipment for $10. Those $10 got me:
1 Replacement glass for display assembly
4 plastic picks
2 prying tools
1 metal razor
3 cleaning cloths
1 Philips screwdriver
1 suction cap to hold glass
1 tube of glue solvent
1 replacement double sided t
Re:They did it to themselves (Score:5, Insightful)
When you make HUGE price tags to repair items, people are going to repair it themselves. I previously worked for Lenovo/Asus repair depot. To replace an LCD was over $300. Part on eBay is about$60 takes maybe 10 mins depending on the model. So when you flease the customer long enough, they attempt it themselves because the $300+tax or buy a new one for $400. Most think I'll give it a shot for $50.
I think the biggest issue for any repair shop is they can't deliver "I'll give it a shot" service. If it doesn't work, people aren't very likely to pay you $50 or even believe you really tried at all. If it turns out something else is broken too, they won't be very happy being stuck with a bill and a still broken machine. In fact you could end up in an argument about what was broke or if you broke it. If you do it yourself as a last-ditch attempt before throwing it in the trash you got nothing to lose, but deliver it to a repair shop and the customer will never accept that. They want a quote and a repaired machine for that price and you're burdened with the risk of delivering that. If those parts on eBay turns out to be faulty or shoddy knock-offs that don't quite work right or have quality issues that could become your problem too. Also if bad shit happens shortly after it comes from your shop they'll try to blame it on your repair, whether it's actually correct or not.
All of this starts amounting to quite a bit of overhead, if someone comes in with a machine you probably can't make an off the cuff estimate. First you have to figure out roughly what's wrong, what parts costs, the time you'll spend and the risk you're taking then give a quote based on that. And very often the customer will say it's not worth it and go buy a new machine and that time is lost. And then you'll have customers who want time estimates or worse yet guarantees and you have supply chain issues you'll spend time dealing with customer complains and they might haggle or cancel their business and you might get stuck with the bill. And you will have all the ordinary business overhead of having a shop, maintaining an inventory and billing system, taxes etc. and people that don't ever come to collect or pay. And if you're shipping you will spent time wrapping and unwrapping, collecting and delivering, dealing with transport damage etc.
I have some friends that are in the construction industry, they say pretty much the same. If you take away all the overhead, preparation and cleanup and just look at the time the handyman actually does this craft the hourly rate looks bizarre. But after dealing with "everything else" it's not like they walk away with that much per hour worked. It's the cost of doing it as a business, if they were just working on their own house they could do it way, way cheaper. It's simply a matter of trust and risk management, like I rented an apartment from an ex-classmate some years ago. Even though we weren't exactly friends he'd much rather rent to me than to some stranger, simply because he knew I'd be a no fuss tenant. The money is in easy business, dealing with complex and unique situations lie half-broken machines is often unreasonably time consuming and thus expensive. Getting a "known good" one off the assembly line often wins on simplicity.
Really!? Say it ain't so!! (Score:2)
An industry that makes bank on people buying replacement consoles and software titles to replace "damaged" product, fighting to prevent end users plugging that revenue stream!?
SAY IT AIN'T SO! /s
For those that dont understand how software can be an issue:
Suppose that Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony decide that they want to not tie software downloads to a user account, but instead to a hardware unique key. Now when your console dies, that's all she wrote.
Another possibility is that they fear that tools to rec
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. Isn't it funny when companies like Sony scream "let the market decide" and then put barriers in the way of capitalism when that market decides that repairing broken Sony stuff is worthwhile?
So Many Control Freaks (Score:3)
Always your best friend until they get your money. Soon we will just be a rat getting a food pill in a cage.
During the 70's or 80's... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
IIRC, that was Big Blue - the memory board already had the capacity, and the "upgrade" was a tech removing a jumper allowing access to the second bank - It must have been cheaper to manufacture a board with full capacity and a jumper, than to manufacture two boards with different capacities.
Re: (Score:2)
More like today's per-core software licensing, I would say. I bet the price of the additional hardware was negligible in this case (but, a not fully populated board would still have been a lot cheaper to make).
Maybe manufacturing a whole new mainframe was expensive, but not nearly as much as what they charged in sales/rent/leasing/charges. Rather than with a Nintendo or a home computer, I think it should be compared with a jet fighter program. Spend a zillion on R&D then only build a few hundreds or tho
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Back in the early days of IBM mainframes, any software you wrote on it belonged to IBM. Things have changed a lot since then, but you can still pay someone to flip a switch. Only now the switch is virtual and has DRM to prevent you from flipping it yourself.
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Except you cant use Microsoft WORD to write anything that says anything negative about Microsoft.... it's in the EULA.
Oh and they own your docx files because it is in their format.
Oh and you had better read the EULA of their Visual Studio as to what they own of yours.....
Nothing has changed except that they hide it better in a wall of text written by the scummiest people on the planet. Intellectual Property Lawyers.
do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer ship? (Score:2)
Do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer ship?
DRM'ed tires that need an dealer install and maybe even an max miles limit?
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Sounds a lot like ink cartridges.
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Anyone that owns a performance car has been paying $100 oil changes at even a quickie lube for a while now. MY dealer oil changes are $160.00 If I buy the oil and filter myself it comes out to be $65.00 to do it in the driveway.
I'm guessing that you have not owned a car and taken it in for an oil change cince 1980? Even my Honda Civic was $70 for an oil change just yesterday at a Valvoline quick lube.
Back in my younger days... (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I still always try to fix something myself before tossing it or calling a repair guy, from cars to washing machines. And it's still a great way to save money.
Seems simple to me (Score:2)
The rationale being that if the end-user is not free to fix the product, then the end-user is not the owner. The end-user has merely rented the product. The manufacturer is still the owner, and thus is responsible for the cost of repairs.
Re: (Score:2)
No--
Say they are responsible for disposal of the unit.
If the end user is NOT the owner, they do not have legal right to destroy or dispose of the product after it reaches end of life, because they are only renting.
That means that in order to be responsible with their product lifecycle, they have to plan for disposition, and provide a mechanism for the end user to return old product for proper disposal.
That is more expensive than you realize, because it basically doubles the costs of shipping on a product's
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Where I live stores already have garbage bins for light bulbs, batteries, small electronic and electric devices like phones and toasters, routers, hair dryers and so on.
A busted Xbox 360 would easily fit in there. Some tiny "recycling" tax, maybe European, is advertised on high tech crap.
So while your idea is likable, the problem is it's already done, and it's too easy.
Non-Issue for all gamers. (Score:2)
If you built your own PC this is a non-issue.
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Even if he does buy from them, if the majority won't, it may fail. The majority drags everyone with it.
pinball repair (Score:3)
I sure am happy that I can repair my old pinball machines, that every nut and bolt has a part number so I can find a replacement part.
Addams Family Pinball Repair - Part 1 of 2, The Transistor [youtube.com]
They sure wouldn't have lasted for 30 years without repairs.
They still fulfilled their role and made money for the original owner somewhere.
That's because you're a fucking consumer (Score:5, Insightful)
Now shut the fuck up and send more money.
Signed - Microsoft, Apple, Sony
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Now shut the fuck up and send more money.
Signed - Microsoft, Apple, Sony
Corporate Arrogance is very real today, and because of that, you're being far too fucking polite with your wording.
Flawed Bill, sneaky language (Score:2)
>require manufacturers to sell replacement parts and repair tools to independent repair companies and consumers at the same price they are sold to authorized repair centers
It so happens Apple does NOT sell any parts/tools/manuals to their "authorized repair centers". What they do is let you use the name, and in exchange get paid $18 per item you ship to Apples Texas facility for exchange, all while charging your client $149-1299.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
As a tech (component level repair) (Score:4, Insightful)
Being able to get *access* to schematics and boardviews in a timely, and legal manner would be a real nice thing and one of the big pushes behind trying to get this "Right to repair" bill through. Seems a lot of the counter-fight is trying to detail how "poor dumb consumers" shouldn't be near this stuff in the first place ( and to a degree they're right ) as opposed to techs already skilled in the processes involved in the repair work., In reality what a lot of people such as myself and Louis Rossmann (who'll be there speaking in favour of the bill) would like to have is the ability to obtain the information required directly from the manufacturer, even at a fair-and-reasonable price.
In the old days (80's~90's) you could call up the service dept of most equipment manufacturers and for $15~$20 they would mail you the documents you wanted. These days you have to hope someone leaks it out to the internet. The businesses claim "trade secrets" but in reality there's nothing secret in those schematics, almost every section is pretty much a lift from the 'suggested/example layouts' from the part/chip manufacturer in the first place.
Ultimately it's all about preventing people from holding off buying a new product, but rebuffed under the guise of "safety" or "secrets".
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle [but not Repair] (Score:2)
The US Government (the UK's too) says "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" [epa.gov] to save the planet.
Conspicuous by its absence is "Repair", despite the fact that it would have made a nice 4th "R". A lot of the problem is that politicians are the sort of people (PPE graduates mostly) who have never repaired anything in their lives and regard repairing as doing something dodgy and disreputable
This is how politicians see DiY repairs [jantoo.com]
sounds about right (Score:2)
The Entertainment Software Association, a trade organization that includes Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, as well as dozens of video game developers and publishers, is opposing a "right to repair" bill in Nebraska, which would give hardware manufacturers fewer rights to control the end-of-life of electronics that they have sold to their customers...
Typical Rick and his buddies must be against this. I'm just surprised that there aren't video game development studios against it. ;)
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes it is. If you own the item, then all of the rights of ownership are to be afforded to you. You get to do with it as you please, and that includes repairing it.
It's a derived right, to be sure, but it is a right, nonetheless.
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Exactly correct. The right to repair is a blatantly obvious ramification of ownership rights.
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Yes it is. If you own the item, then all of the rights of ownership are to be afforded to you. You get to do with it as you please, and that includes repairing it.
It's a derived right, to be sure, but it is a right, nonetheless.
Wake up as to what is happening today. From cell phones to SaaS, the concept of true ownership is becoming extinct.
Once cars become autonomous, it will be "too dangerous" to allow Joe Mechanic to work on one. Autonomous taxi service vehicles will be owned by a corporation for the same reason.
Computers are already become non-serviceable devices (e.g. New Macbook Pro sealed and soldered case design), so the argument of repair has become moot.
Whether it's an bubble-wrapped version of liability, damage to sen
it goes both ways (Score:2)
You, as the owner of the item, already have the right to repair it. Nobody is going to arrest you for opening it up and doing whatever you want.
The question is whether the manufacturer has the right to sell, or not sell, what they choose. That includes replacement parts and service manuals. It really is that simple.
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It's not, or this wouldn't be a story.
You've got that backwards: it is, which is why there is a story. Lawmakers regularly pass new laws to make it explicitly clear that rights do, in fact, extend to particular areas. Our rights already exist there, but our ability to exercise them has been obstructed, and lawmakers are pushing back.
Manufacturers have gone to great lengths to prevent people from exercising their rights (e.g. licensing instead of selling, adding terms of usage that limit rights, etc., most of which have yet to be challenged heav
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Because they can't make money off that position?
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Sure they can. Just not as *MUCH* money.
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Then I guess their business model is wrong.
A business model that needs laws to prop it up is broken.
Broken business models? (Score:2)
Copyright and Rights Licensing
Upon which the GPL is based, as well as just about the entire entertainment industry. It's difficult to imagine a studio spending tens or hundreds of millions on a production based on the hope that no one would copy and distribute the resulting product without seeing to it that they were compensated.
Patents
Upon which the drug industry, chip industry, etc., is based.
While these mechanisms are clearly not optimum, they do s
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Oh please. The scenario you described could be easily prevented by writing these Right to Repair laws so that requiring consumers to ship devices out of the country (or maybe even the state) is illegal, and consumers are entitled to a full refund from the retailer if a manufacturers tries this.
Re:Terrible Idea (Score:5, Informative)
The point of the law is to make it so that farmers can repair their tractors and other equipment. In the past decade, big tractor companies have been locking down their machines using the DMCA. Since it could take days or weeks for a repairman to come by and fix it, and that time lost without the machine could cost the farmer their livelihood, it has put them in an impossible position. That this affects pretty much every other market besides farm equipment and vehicles is an unintended side effect of the computerization of everything and application of the DMCA to lock down all those things.
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I do not care about the 3rd party service. I do not want to deal with authorized service. I want a service manual (the same one given to the employees of the authorized service) and for the manufacturer to sell me the needed spare parts.
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Boards - yes, might be a bit difficult to repair a modern board, though my friend works at a cell phone repair company and they do solder things on the base board of the cellphone. Still, I would like to be able to buy the spare parts from the manufacturer instead of searching for them on ebay etc. And some devices have mechanical components - I would really like to get a replacement gear, pulley or something like that.
Re: (Score:2)
This is a TERRIBLE IDEA!
Get a clue. If a state makes a law that anyone can get access to repair parts and manuals the manufacturer will close all authorized service in that state. Require shipping the device out of state for repair.
Congrats, you just described APPLE _right now_. Yes, Get a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not making this up. I bought something. It stopped working. It had to be shipped to China for warranty repair. It wasn't expensive and I threw it out. Lesson learned.
You should get better at talking to eBay. A recent dispute I was in which culminated with a refund was won by me with a statement about how the seller wanted me to become an expert in international shipping law so that they can get back their counterfeit product and see where it went wrong. Problem solved.
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Ebay always sides with the buyer, open the case and ebay will simply refund the money paid if returning the item is too difficult. in international cases from china ebay wil even say, "here is your money, keep the item" because if the auction is marked "no returns" that means that the seller does not want it back for any reason at all even damaged so the buyer can get a refund and keep the item.
If he did not open a case with ebay then he is either very stupid or just started using ebay.
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This is a TERRIBLE IDEA!..... the manufacturer will close all authorized service in that state. Require shipping the device out of state for repair. They could go as far as requiring shipping out of the US for repair.
What BS. There will always be a proportion of the population who will be prepared to pay more for an authorised dealer repair. I have a top-of-the range Pentax camera needing repair. In the UK there is no restriction on anyone repairing a camera but I still took it to a Pentax authorised repairer. But I repair my own cars and computers.
There are some good reasons why an authorised repairer should cost more than an unauthorised one, such as having attended the manufacturer's training course. There are al
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It's not the job of the company to make it easier to repair. The job of the company is to make money. The job of the government is to make the company make the device easier to repair, because the government (in a democracy) is supposed to represent the people.
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Dont be retarded. It can be serviced by something like u-boot and a functioning uart, or jtag interface. Things that are usually there, just without pins soldered on. I think the cost increase is about .01$ to populate those pins. The software in the device is ALREADY THERE to flash the firmware initially at the factory. Documenting how to connect, what the cable pinout is, the voltage, and providing a rescue firmware image online would meet the requirements.
This is not some crazy thing where they would ha
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Where does it say that the " firmware to revert an electronic device" has to reside on the device itself? All they really have to do is provide the files for download (like they do for most smartphones) and a method to re-flash everything using a PC.
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It doesn't have to be open-source, or even in an unencrypted format.
How do you think smartphone OEMs provide firmware images, despite containing proprietary licensed code?
If Apple and Samsung can do it (legally) than anyone else can too.
Re: (Score:2)
Since this would require 2 copies of the OS and firmware to be stored in the unit (which will have to be stored somewhere that won't be overwritten accidentally), this will just bump the price up.
Of course it does not have to be stored in the unit. In any case storage is cheap, an my laptop does have a restore/repair partition as it happens.
This is a technical site you are posting to. Don't insult our intelligence.
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Since this would require 2 copies of the OS and firmware to be stored in the unit (which will have to be stored somewhere that won't be overwritten accidentally), this will just bump the price up.
You know, it's pretty typical to have a restore-to-factory function on a phone. It's not an arduous requirement for a game console. And for the record, Microsoft consoles already have multiple copies of the BIOS, and always have.
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I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.
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I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.
You are failing to see the big picture here. The things you do know how to repair, or maybe even make a living from doing, will also be attacked.
It won't be a "lot of things". It will slowly become every fucking thing once every other market sees the profit margins enjoyed by industries who have lobbied and won.
And giving away the console would merely result in a price increase of every game by 30%, proving what has always been true; nothing is free.
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I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.
It would not be "free", it would be in the cost of the lease. Hiring/leasing things more than occasionally costs far more than owning them, unless you are the sort of person who is forever busting things and cannot repair them (which characteristics usually go together). The leaser also controls what you get, which in the case of IT equipment will include adverts constantly stuffed down your throat (to "enrich" your experinece).
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If I want to defeat my own safety interlocks, that should be my right. The manufacturer should be able to say they won't honor the warranty if I enable the ability to shift into reverse at 50, but if it's my machine I should be able to do what I want with it.