Suicide of an Uber Engineer: Widow Blames Job Stress (sfchronicle.com) 288
An anonymous reader shares a report: Joseph Thomas thought he had it made when he landed a $170,000 job as a software engineer at Uber's San Francisco headquarters last year. [...] But his time at Uber turned into a personal tragedy, one that will compel the ride-hailing company to answer questions before a judge about its aggressive work culture. Always adept with computers, Joseph Thomas worked his way up the ladder at tech jobs in his native Atlanta, then at LinkedIn in Mountain View, where he was a senior site reliability engineer. He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber, because he felt he could grow more with the younger company and was excited about the chance to profit from stock options when it went public. But at Uber, Thomas struggled in a way he'd never experienced in over a decade in technology. He worked long hours. He told his father and his wife that he felt immense pressure and stress at work, and was scared he'd lose his job. [...] One day in late August, Zecole (the wife) came home from dropping their boys off at school. Joseph was sitting in his car in the garage. She got into the passenger seat to talk to him. Then she saw the blood. Joseph had shot himself. [...] Uber declined to comment on the legal dispute and said Thomas never complained to the company of extreme stress or racial discrimination.
Choice (Score:4, Insightful)
"He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber"
If he had a job offer from Apple and choose to go work at Uber it also means he was good at what he does and he could have dropped his new job and find a better one, at Apple or some other place.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
While salary might have been an indirect reason not to quit, I'm gonna lay it out and say "father of 2" pops to mind. The responsibility of having dependents is something I can only grasp. Then again, he committed suicide, so I digress. I think the human mind is too complex and, pardon the obvious, moody to blame such an extreme action on a specific reason. But my personal view is, with 2 kids and that salary, and a managerial position (apparently he did interviews, from the comments below), it was either p
Re: (Score:2)
That's a pretty good way of looking at it. A year after my mom passed away, my dad remarried to a woman who's husband committed suicide. He did think he was providing well enough for them, and in his suicide note hoped the insurance would provide well for them. His life insurance had a suicide clause, so it didn't pay off. Depression is a terrible illness.
Re: (Score:2)
Those who value greed more than happiness, will be unhappy.
Re: (Score:2)
If he didn't like the culture why didn't he just get another job?
TFS says he "was excited about the chance to profit from stock options when it went public".
This should be a warning never to place financial gain above your own health.
Re: (Score:3)
Because a better job just presents itself whenever you want it?
Was he even looking for another job? That is one of the many things we don't know about this case. We certainly don't have enough information to make any kind of judgements about him or his choices other than he was troubled enough to take his own life.
Regardless of this case, its not good to get yourself into a situation where you are making that kind of money and not providing yourself an escape fund. That said, high cost of living in the area makes it harder to do so.
Living within your means allows
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Walking away is hard. You never know how you will deal with it until you're in the situation. In many cases, toxic situations have the tendency to reduce self-esteem -- after missing a few deadlines, he may have been convinced his talent had dried up. They also tend to create (possibly true and possibly false) impressions about the consequences of leaving -- "never work in this town again", or maybe on a lesser note, now he has nobody to ask for a letter of recommendation. And the thing is, it doesn't take
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, seriously...people base their self esteem on their job?
Does a job mean "that" much to some people? A job is nothing more than a means to earn money to enjoy things in life.
You work is not what defines you...if it is, then you really do have some serious problems.
Re: (Score:3)
Ok, seriously...people base their self esteem on their job?
Of course they do! I don't, but I know and work with, a lot of people that base their identity and self-worth on their profession.
Re: (Score:2)
Wow....I dunno if that is more sad or scary...?!?!
These people had no self esteem before entering the job force?
Re: (Score:3)
A job is nothing more than a means to earn money to enjoy things in life.
Some people work at a job to help people and be valuable. There's more to life than work, but there's also more to life than self indulgence.
Re: (Score:2)
Really?
Like what?
I only have a short time on earth, I fully intend to make the best of it....I like to help others along the was as best I can, sure, but in the end, it is all about me.
You're born alone, you die alone.
You'd better make the best of it while you are here....
Re: (Score:2)
If I hadn't commented already I'd mod you up. I think those dismissing this out of hand have never experienced it. Extreme stress and a loss of self esteem can make things seem much darker and choices much more limited. I imagine that suffering that when you think you've just reached the pinnacle of your career would only make it seem worse.
Re: (Score:2)
"He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber"
If he had a job offer from Apple and choose to go work at Uber it also means he was good at what he does and he could have dropped his new job and find a better one, at Apple or some other place.
As a rule of thumb suicidal people don't make rational decisions. In this case since the terror of losing the job was one of the things that put him over the edge.
Don't expect suicidal people to voluntarily walk away from the things troubling them, they may not believe walking away is an option.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't expect suicidal people to voluntarily walk away from the things troubling them, they may not believe walking away is an option.
Yep they have a tendency to cling like hell to the very things that are making them depressed and suicidal in the first place
Re: (Score:2)
This is very, very true. Depression narrows the scope of your thinking, leading to odd circular reasoning and despair over problems that are either solvable or not actually problems in the first place. In your mind, not solving this particular problem in this particular way means that you are a complete failure.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't expect suicidal people to voluntarily walk away from the things troubling them, they may not believe walking away is an option.
OTOH, he sort of did the ultimate walk-away, leaving his family behind to fend for itself.
Re:Choice (Score:4, Interesting)
If.. If only he hadn't been that depressed.. I've been there and very narrowly survived the experience. It cost me dear, in many ways.. If it'd been caught and handled internally with HR referrals, and occupational health evaluations, and company referral to counselling services, along with management supporting a valid workload. Lots of ifs, and none of it happened.. Which resulted in a guy topping himself..
This is a sad story, and I don't see any way that Uber can come out of it looking good, as management should have intercepted (that level of depression is extremely obvious, and any manager tasked with man management can see it and can at least find the right person to refer to. If they didn't, they're either incompetent, or negligent. Either way, Uber as a company put that manager in place to represent them, so they carry the can).
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, remember that you have a limited number of job-changes (and you don't know up front just how many that is) before nobody will hire you.
Unless you're a contractor. I worked seven days a week for two years (2011-2013) to recover from being unemployed for two years and filing for Chapter Seven bankruptcy. I've worked 30+ IT support assignments for three different contracting agencies during that time.
Plus, leaving one job after just a few months is a big red flag.
Maybe, maybe not. If a contract doesn't work for me, I'm ready to walk into the next job. I nearly walked off my current job because the CIO kept screaming at me because someone else lied to him and the contract had a $5K penalty for not giving a
Re: (Score:2)
Plus, leaving one job after just a few months is a big red flag.
A big red flag showing that the workplace environment is toxic there? As if we didn't know already?
Why would an employee care about a high turnover rate at the company he's leaving anyway?
Shouldn't we be the ones with the leverage here?
Only if the employees join their forces rather than trying to undercut each other. Leaving the place can be a solution at a personal level, but not at the society level: it takes more time to bleed dry a company (that will play PR games like renaming itself, pledges by the CEO, denouncing "isolated" incidents, etc) than it
It's true (Score:5, Insightful)
Some Bay Area tech companies are real meat grinders. I've definitely been so stressed out and overworked that it affected me emotionally. But that's a long way from suicide. I can't imagine what Uber could do to an employee that is different than some of the worst companies I've worked at. I suspect that some people are more sensitive to on the job pressure, or other psychological conditions may be at play here. And I would have hoped someone in that situation seek counseling or quit their jobs before getting to the point of suicide.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
My deadlines can't move either, I work at a fabless silicon company. When we pay a foundry to tool up and manufacture our design, we have millions of dollars invested and have reserved a place in line and cannot miss those deadlines without scrapping that chip and moving to a future generation. When the chip returns, we have to test it and make sure it is correct before we make any last minute changes. So there is a 72 hour bring-up period, most of us work 18 hour shifts and the campus is open around the cl
Re: (Score:2)
It's not unique. It's because your company is run by managers who realize both the nature of the work (there are deadlines that are hard to move) and there will be periods where you're working extremely long hours. But they also realize the importance of family, so they invite your family to come over and join you during break periods so you don't get all bogged down in work.
For some companies
Re: (Score:2)
For some companies, Pixar and many semiconductor ones, allowing unauthorized personnel even in "public" areas is quite a big deal (who knows what they may see or overhear). That they allow children and spouses to hang around is a really big deal - it shows the company cares about the well-being of its workers. Sure they're in a public area, bur even in a private cafeteria often sensitive things get discussed.
Luckily we can hide the vast majority of stuff in the labs. And certain floors of buildings are off limits to outsiders as well. But cafeterias are places we can safely take interview candidates, family members, and other visitors. There is a visitor badging process and it's quite painless. Important areas are badged and tail gating is rarer now they have cracked down on it.
The management here also acknowledges that there is a crunch time and a down time. When I'm working with the architects of the next chi
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
So, when do you pay your taxes? :-)
Three months before it's due. I have a friend who waited until the weekend before to do his taxes and got upset that he owed $200 to the IRS. If he had done it three months earlier, he could have filed his state tax return first to get the refund and then pay off his federal tax bill.
Re: (Score:3)
Geez, I'm waiting for when you start posting your shopping lists "This is what I bought today" [...]
I got a bathroom scale, [amzn.to], razor blades [amzn.to] and scissors [amzn.to] yesterday.
[...] and it gets modded insightful by your other sockpuppet accounts.
Can someone mod me up? I don't have any sockpuppet accounts.
Re:It's true (Score:4, Informative)
If you have to write a check, you don't get an extension on that.
Re: (Score:2)
Some Bay Area tech companies are real meat grinders. I've definitely been so stressed out and overworked that it affected me emotionally. But that's a long way from suicide. I can't imagine what Uber could do to an employee that is different than some of the worst companies I've worked at. I suspect that some people are more sensitive to on the job pressure, or other psychological conditions may be at play here. And I would have hoped someone in that situation seek counseling or quit their jobs before getting to the point of suicide.
You are approaching this from a rational viewpoint. Pretty much by definition, someone who commits suicide isn't doing the same (outside of people in constant untreatable pain and so on).
Re: (Score:2)
You are approaching this from a rational viewpoint. Pretty much by definition, someone who commits suicide isn't doing the same (outside of people in constant untreatable pain and so on).
Sorry, I'm not trying to lay blame here. And my comment about "affected me emotionally" is an understatement because I don't like to discuss it, because during that time I was not very rational.
It is very possible that he had clinical depression, and if there was some way to have gotten him to professional counseling this might have been caught and treated. In a perfect world, depression shouldn't be something you live with until you have so much anxiety that you pop, it should be something that gets treate
How do they know it's work related? (Score:5, Insightful)
He worked long hours. He told his father and his wife that he felt immense pressure and stress at work, and was scared he'd lose his job...
Look , were all scared we'd lose our job. That's the nature of [most] work these days.
What I have learned in the west is that people do not really "enjoy life." They live to work. Laws surrounding how family matters are handled do not necessarily favor the male. These could all have had a hand in this.
I must say I am sorry for the family's loss. I also think we in the west need to take life easier a bit. It's not all about money. We should also understand that elsewhere in the world, there are folks who seem to be happier with much less than what we have here.
I know this, for I am well travelled. To conclude, let's not start blaming the employer right away. There's definitely much more to this than this piece says.
Re: (Score:2)
Look , were all scared we'd lose our job. That's the nature of [most] work these days.
No, it's the nature of most people's finances today.
Re: (Score:2)
Good point. She might have helped drive him to this end; if he felt he had no one to talk to and confide in about feeling terrible, that might be why he killed himself.
The wife might be trying to blame Uber to deflect her feeling of guilt.
He might also not have had much or any life insurance, and now the family is totally rudderless.
weasel words (Score:2)
Uber declined to comment on the legal dispute and said Thomas never complained to the company of extreme stress or racial discrimination.
Why do I get the feeling that he complained about being "really stressed" but technically not "extreme stress"? Oh yeah, it's because Uber is a bunch of shysters that would gladly stab you in the back and sell your children into slavery if they knew they could get away with it.
Re: (Score:3)
Uber is a bunch of shysters that would gladly stab you in the back
Sadly, it would be easier to list the employers you couldn't say that about than the ones you could.
Suggestion for this (Score:3)
For people reading this, my suggestion is to make an effort to simply be kind and/or friendly to people you work with or interact with. Maybe it will help someone who really needs it.
If something is so bad that you can't be kind or friendly, find another job or make whatever other change you need to make.
Re: (Score:2)
In all the back and forth that goes on, with people taking sides, and building up walls, it's lovely to see someone go back to basics, and actually say something simple and constructive!
Alas, mental illness being what it is, finding another job becomes impossible when you start suffering from some variants of it.. That's what led to the sad outcome.. But if there had been more of the friendly engagement, I suspect that it would never have gone as far as it did..
Enough whipping Uber to death (Score:3)
Let's just pile on Uber and blame them for all kinds of things. They seem to be the designated whipping boy for all things bad in the tech industry now, so why not? I think that it is now fashionable to beat on Uber for all it's perceived sins. I'm not saying Uber is a great place, it obviously has earned some of this, but at this point, we are beyond what seems reasonable to me.
Where I feel for this guy's widow, Uber is ultimately NOT responsible for his death, he is. I know this is hard to admit and as she goes though the stages of grief she is obviously hurting and lashing out at Uber as she goes though this process. I hope she can find peace with this issue eventually and see that her husband's death is only one person's fault. That person is not her or Uber, but hm. In the mean time, I'm very sorry she is going though this.
For anybody out there thinking of following in this guy's footsteps. Consider this: The pain you leave behind for your loved ones is real and the question of "why" will forever cloud their lives in an unfair way. Please get help, tell somebody and work it out somehow, for them, killing yourself is not an answer, it doesn't make the problem go away.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
If you ever come across someone suffering from clinical depression in real life, shut the fuck up. You are utterly and completely unqualified to deal with it. In fact, you are particularly harmful.
Re: (Score:2)
And you are being helpful how?
"Get help" is bad advice? I fail to see how that's a bad idea over suffering in silence or just killing oneself...
I never claimed to be an expert in this subject, but I have been where this woman is, dealing with a family member's death at their own hands. I had a difficult time making peace with what happened too, but hey, I'm no expert and never claimed to be one.
How about you? Are you an expert?
Re: (Score:2)
And you are being helpful how?
Hopefully by getting people like you to stop "helping".
"Get help" is bad advice? I fail to see how that's a bad idea over suffering in silence or just killing oneself.
The thing you fail to understand is we don't need advice.
People with depression are not sitting there going "I don't know what to do!!". We are depressed. We are aware of it. We know that there are various kinds of help available. Thus your "advice" is not at all helpful. In fact, yet another normal person saying "just go get fixed so I don't have to think about people like you" is not exactly helpful.
Hence my advice to you to just shut up and let
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I'm going to step in here and try to explain this,
When you say that the only culprit is the person who killed himself, you are no only denying his victim status, you are actually proclaiming him the perpetrator of a moral wrong.
People who kill themselves are the primary victims of whatever circumstance provoked their decision, and putting the blame in them and dismissively telling them to "get help" or that his circumstances are not "bad enough" to grant a suicide are really bad ways to approach the
Re: (Score:2)
I've run companies, managed people, and worked shop floor in my time. And there's one thing about management; they're hired to represent the company, and they're responsible for keeping track of the workers. This involves their health, physical and mental.
As this was extreme comorbid anxiety and depression, this would have been impossible for a manager not to notice. Which brings about the question of whether the lack of action was due to incompetence (not noticed extreme distress in employee) or neglige
analogy in higher education (Score:2)
If he was so stressed out that he committed suicide, it means he wasn't a good match for the job. But he must have been quite a bit above average to even make it that far and he could easily have found a well-paying job elsewhere.
It seems likely, given the nature of Uber, Silicon Valley, and San Francisco, that diversity goals may have played a role in his hire. We know from academic environments (where this is easier to study) that this kind of mismatch harms its intended beneficiaries [theatlantic.com]. Success at technica
Re: (Score:2)
It seems likely, given the nature of Uber, Silicon Valley, and San Francisco, that diversity goals may have played a role in his hire
So you are saying, just from reading the article, that this guy was just an affirmative action token hire..?
$170K is nothing in SF/SV (Score:3, Interesting)
Coming from the New York metro area, I know how insane cost of living is compared to other parts of the country. Generally, New York, Boston, Washington DC, Chicago and of course California cost way more to live in than just about anywhere else. Part of it is taxes, part of it is because that's where all the high-salary jobs tend to gravitate to, but the reality is that a $170K salary in San Francisco is barely above middle class. Rent in SF proper is more expensive than anywhere outside Midtown Manhattan, and houses start in the million dollar range and go up from there. California has great weather, but I would never live there for that reason. I already pay a lot for a house in a suburb about 60 miles from the city -- I love living here but there would be no way I could justify paying more than double what I'm already paying to buy a house.
I think the fact that this person moved from Georgia to California without demanding a much higher salary is a huge contributor to his stress. Uber isn't exactly known as a warm and fuzzy employer either -- it sounds like a carbon copy of all the other frathouse startups from Bubbles 1.0 and 2.0. Anyone who's older and different in an environment like that is going to have a hard time fitting in. If you can't do 16-hour coding sessions while playing beer pong, you're an outsider, but will still be expected to perform the same way as everyone else. Older people who have worked a fair amount usually realize when they're being taken advantage of, but what if this guy just felt he couldn't leave? Having a potential lottery ticket in the form of stock options is a big reason lots of people stay in the crazy startup culture. With a family to support, and the feeling that he'd fail if he had to go back to Atlanta, no wonder he lost it.
That's one of the reasons I'd never work at a startup -- there's zero work life balance, no stability and the "if we wanted you to have a family, we would have issued you one" culture. Seriously, I'm older and have seen how companies take advantage of employees -- I prefer to work hard enough to have an employer want to keep me, but not give my life over to them. That's for suckers!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm a senior software engineer in the Atlanta area and I make just over 100k, that's a joke by valley standards
I have dreamed about going out to California and working with one of big tech rockstar companies (Apple, Google, Netflix, etc.), if they'd actually have me that is...
but the truth is now that I'm past 40, they probably wouldn't have me... and even if they did, I wouldn't go.. I'm all in (taxes, interest, principle, insurance, HOA) on my mortgage for slightly over 1000 bucks,
It's Sad but he just couldn't cope with reality (Score:3)
I am one of those people that was considered a computer prodigy myself. A lot of us when we are younger we believe we can change the world. We believe the world values technology, science and advancing human civilization. And then we come into contact with the real world that really doesn't care about those things. It primarily cares only about profits and in a lot of cases doesn't even care about morals and ethics. What you find is that your one and only true natural talent doesn't have near the value in this "advanced" society as you thought it did and your entire sense of self identity rests upon that very idea.
You have two choices when you arrive at this crossroads. You accept what you've come to understand reality to be or you don't. If you don't and you continue to try to reject reality and insert your own, it's quite possible you could end up where this unfortunate soul did. If you accept it, you realize that your skills and money and all that stuff are really a means to an end. And it really is a means to attain freedom so that you can do what you want, in whatever way you want and not have to compromise with this apathetic system we have.
I think the saddest part of it all is this is another young, idealistic person who came into the workforce, torch burning bright full of life and passion and he was snuffed out. He was looked at as a resource. The thing that the corporate types full of apathy and devoid of compassion don't realize is that when you put that flame out, it's typically out for good. In the case of Joseph Thomas, it's really out for good and that's a terrible tragedy.
CA (Score:5, Insightful)
As a white midwesterner working in CA, I can sympathize with the idea that CA tech companies have toxic cultural problems. I can only imagine what it's like to be a black dude.
CA runs on passive aggresive behavior. It can be psychologically damaging to someone who grows up and has worked with real people their whole life.
Sure, Uber is evil. (Score:3)
It's an anti-social company that's a horrible place to work. Everybody knows that by now.
What nobody can know for sure is why an individual takes his life, or what circumstances would have to be different.
Take Google, which in several recent lists is the best company in America to work for. Google has just shy of 60,000 employees. Given the US suicide rate of 46/100,000, if Google were largely reflective of that you'd expect 28 suicides/year among Google employees. Of course (a) not all Google employees are Americans and (b) Google employees are economically better off than most people in their societies, so you'd expect there to be a lower rate of suicide. But it's safe to assume a dozen Google employees a year take their lives.
And if you look at them as individuals, you'd inevitably suspect work stress was involved, and if you'd look you'd probably find it -- because it's a chicken-or-egg thing. Suicide is a catastrophic loss of coping ability; when you head that way you will find trouble everywhere you turn.
When something like this happens to an individual, everyone feels the need to know why -- even strangers. But that's the one thing you can never know for certain. Now if suicide rates were high for Uber, then statistically you could determine to what degree you should be certain that Uber is a killing its employees with a bad work environment (or perhaps selecting at-risk employees).
I think its inevitable and understandable that this man's family blames Uber. And it's very likely that this will be yet another PR debacle for the company. But the skeptic in me says we just can't know whether Uber has any responsibility for the result.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes being an a-hole is a sign of metal illness as well. I think we should all slow down and not be quick to judge.
Re: (Score:2)
"Sometimes it's a sign of having a realistic outlook on things and not sugar coating them, too."
Yes, but no too, and probably most of the time
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
You can cut the red-pill conservative bullshit thats been going around lately. Things like toughen up snowflake, not my problem etc work only when you are the third party not affected by the current situation. Guess what, its normal to be human and have some problems. Next time you encounter a loss in life, invite someone to poop over yourself and see how it feels!
Re: Cry me a river (Score:3, Insightful)
*Said while not hiding as AC. ;)
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe, but hardly bingo considering Uber's record.
Re: Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes and no. Most startups have the opportunities for growth, stock options that could become valuable, etc., though you always have a decent chance of not getting anything from them other than more work. But there's definitely a point beyond which that extra work qualifies as worker abuse. This is why we need stronger laws on employee work hours.
Don't get me wrong; I'm okay with people hiring "exempt employees" with the understanding that their work hours will vary throughout the year, depending on what is happening. Where that scheme goes off the rails is when that turns into an expectation that you'll work 50+ hours every week—something that is fundamentally unsafe from a psychological perspective, causing serious harm to workers when done over a prolonged period. And from what I've read, Uber is one of "those companies".
Make no mistake, that culture is entirely the fault of Uber's management. Young people tend to think they're invincible, so without managers telling them to do otherwise, they will work themselves into the ground—sometimes literally. They think that by working ridiculous hours, they'll get ahead of their coworkers, and when enough people do that, others start to believe that long hours are required; thus, a work culture forms around that expectation.
What those young people don't realize is that those longer hours invariably lead to bad decision-making and lower quality output. Statistically, for every hour above about thirty hours, productivity falls off, and by about 50 hours or so, productivity actually goes negative; for every hour worked beyond that limit, you end up doing more than an hour of extra work to fix the additional screw-ups caused by the hour of extra work. For this reason, it is crucial for every tech business to have competent managers who strongly encourage employees to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Managers who do not do this—managers who prioritize short-term gains over worker health—invariably lead to worker burnout, long-term low productivity, and yes, suicides.
Unfortunately, between Uber and video game companies, it is pretty clear that self-regulation by industry isn't working, and that government needs to step in. Exempt shouldn't mean "we own your life". It should mean "40 hours average", i.e. the same as non-exempt workers, but allowing for seasonal variation. It should be illegal for exempt workers to spend more than an average of 40 hours per week spread across a one-year period. Huge fines are quite literally the only thing that companies like Uber will understand.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Look, the name associated with a comment here is irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, "plague911" is just as anonymous and meaningless as "Anonymous Coward" is.
Somebody has died, and all you can think about is attacking people here because of the name associated with their comments?!
Here are the only names you should be thinking about right now: Joseph Thomas, Zecole Thomas, Ezekiel Thomas, and Joseph Thomas, Jr.
Please, show some compassion. Please.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:4, Interesting)
I share your cynicism about the idea that the true cause was an "aggressive work culture" but the same time this was a human being. You, the person hiding behind the screen and the AC title. Don't be an a-hole. Joseph probably had depression, you have a-hole disease.
Also, although job culture could not really have been the root cause, it definitely could be a contributing factor. Someone prone to depression can easily enter a downward spiral when placed under immense stress, to a degree that they're too depressed to take the obvious actions to get out of the stressful environment. If this guy came from LinkedIn and turned down a job at Apple, he obviously had excellent prospects for getting another job, and that would have been the obvious response to excessive job stress. But depressed people don't think that clearly. A good manager and good co-workers should have recognized the situation and encouraged him to seek help.
Note that I'm assuming here that the wife is right, and that it really was a toxic work environment. It's also possible that the work environment is fine and that it was just severe clinical depression. Given the rest of what we hear about Uber, though, it wouldn't shock me to learn that the work environment contributed a great deal.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Interesting)
How would a manager or co-worker know there was a problem?
I mean, granted it may be more of a contractor thing, but who makes friends at "work"? I mean, you go there to earn money and leave for the day, period.
It isn't usually in ones' best interest to discuss problems with co-workers or management lest you wish them to think something wrong with you and possibly lose your job, or choice assignments.
I pretty much always have clearly separated work from personal time. I have lots of friends outside work that I love to spend time with and will confide in them, etc...but the work place is NOT the place for such things.
I'm quite amiable at work, I'll listen and talk to people, but I try my best to never give off too much personal information and certainly not give out information on my emotions or personal problems I"m having. It could be used against you in so many ways at work.
Work is a competition for resources and money. And you have to always make sure you have the edge.
So, I would guess this guy likely didn't tell or give off signs at work that anything was wrong. And that's not a bad strategy.
Your personal support group should be your friends and family outside the work environment.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like a hostile or at least dismal work environment to me. More lord of the flies than a workplace really.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Cry me a river (Score:2, Interesting)
I get the feeling you are young and still are surrounded by your friends from school. Once everyone pairs up, moves to jobs farther away and can't get together all the time like they used to, where do your friends come from? At a point in my life, not so long ago, most of my friends came into my life through work. Same age, same interests, same general goals.
Things have changed and not for the better.
Where i work now (same company but different culture now) to admit you are struggling with depression wou
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, not even close.
In in the way above 40 yrs old set.
I have college friends in New Orleans that I reconnected with, but I also stay in regular to
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, not even close.
In in the way above 40 yrs old set.
I have college friends in New Orleans that I reconnected with, but I also stay in regular touch with friends from the states I did live throughout my life and schooling.
I tend to meet people as neighbors and through them. And in NOLA, there is the concept of the neighborhood bar. I tend to meet many friends, neighbors and women there.
I don't do social media, but I have plenty of friends in meatspace locally as well as visitors or my travelling about to see them.
Once you "pair up", that doesn't mean you have to give up your friends of your youth. I'm still in regular touch with my oldest friend I met when I was 11 and he was 12yrs. A lot of my friends close are 15-20years friends and we still regularly hang out.
I am quite nice and cordial to co-workers, but I never get close to them. Unless they are in my immediate group I don't even really notice them as that I am busy at work.
I'd never stay with a woman that made me get rid of my friends...after all, I've known and respected them for MUCH LONGER than I've been fucking her....you know?
And you are above 40? Wow.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I work with people I consider friends/get along with/work with.
Some, I'd confide in if needed.
Others, I KNOW they are the worst possible choice for that.
Everyone I know at work is classified in some way in my head. there's the guy you can't joke about animals with, the lady who gossips about everything, the lady who will throw you under the bus at a moments notice. these are just some examples.
Knowing this, you modulate your behavior around them.
The under the bus lady has a huge amount of knowledge about ga
Re: (Score:2)
There's also a magnitude of difference between a toxic work environment and "I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money." as the original poster put it. I've done the latter and even enjoyed it but I've also stuck a toxic work environment for years past the point I should have left and ended up suffering from serious stress and depression (not sleeping, panic attacks if my phone rang out of hours, depressed on a Saturday night because I can sense Monday approaching)
Re: (Score:2)
There's also a magnitude of difference between a toxic work environment and "I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money." as the original poster put it. I've done the latter and even enjoyed it but I've also stuck a toxic work environment for years past the point I should have left and ended up suffering from serious stress and depression (not sleeping, panic attacks if my phone rang out of hours, depressed on a Saturday night because I can sense Monday approaching). You can also feel that its your own fault, particularly if others seem to cope and especially if there's bullying involved.
I can't really judge this case from a short summary, but people poo-pooing the idea have just never experienced it.
^^^. I've been through both also, long hours for the money and/or toxic environments, only one, though. The later one was bad enough to make me depressed for a while. If you live long enough and aren't the type that stays at one job forever, you are bound to experience it all.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, although job culture could not really have been the root cause, it definitely could be a contributing factor. Someone prone to depression can easily enter a downward spiral when placed under immense stress, to a degree that they're too depressed to take the obvious actions to get out of the stressful environment. If this guy came from LinkedIn and turned down a job at Apple, he obviously had excellent prospects for getting another job, and that would have been the obvious response to excessive job stress. But depressed people don't think that clearly. A good manager and good co-workers should have recognized the situation and encouraged him to seek help.
That is an excellent point. That actually makes me think even further... Why wouldn't his wife who should be the closest person to his life know about his depression? Or did she ever suggest him to find a new job if her husband made a lot of complaints about his work situation? Or did she actually pressure him to keep working in the place? How about his father whom the wife claimed that he was complaining about the job to? What was actually going on at home for him? There are too many unknown things that we should not jump into a conclusion. Though, I agreed with you that the work environment had at least some (if not huge) contributions to the tragedy...
Re: (Score:3)
If he was clinically depressed then it isn't Uber's fault at all.
Depression is an actual Medical condition driven by chemical imbalances in the brain. they might as well try to sue Uber for him contracting Kidney disease or something.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I know two people, the specific relationships are not anyone's business.
One tried to kill them self. The other experienced suicide idealization while in middle school.
Both are now on small does of Risperidone. The Psychiatrist stated that this was a result of a chemical malfunction in the brain. He further stated that the brain is an organ just like anything else. "Mental Illness" is an artificial moniker given to a set of conditions that physicians are just now beginning to fully understand. It is no diff
Re: (Score:2)
Just because it's "driven" by chemical "imbalances" in the brain doesn't mean it can't be caused by working conditions.
Yeah, the fact that stress can affect one's health is pretty well established... except with certain Slashdotters, apparently. I have little doubt this guy had a predisposition to depression; but I've seen first-hand how stress can affect people who were previously managing their clinical depression well.
Heck, so much about how our bodies work is not binary. You can have a predisposition to type 2 diabetes, but keep it in check with diet and exercise. You can have a family history of heart disease, but (at
Re: (Score:2)
I share your cynicism about the idea that the true cause was an "aggressive work culture" but the same time this was a human being. You, the person hiding behind the screen and the AC title. Don't be an a-hole. Joseph probably had depression, you have a-hole disease.
From TFS:
"Joseph Thomas worked his way up the ladder at tech jobs in his native Atlanta, then at LinkedIn in Mountain View, where he was a senior site reliability engineer. He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber..."
Seems like what he was really suffering from was greed; as in the particular flavor of greed that allows someone with this kind of work experience to put up with an "aggressive work culture" in order to cash out on the get-rich-quick stock option game.
I'm sincerely sorry for his family and loved ones affected by this. He was a human being. That said, the parent was merely stating the truth. He could have easily quit and gotten another job, which tends to make the "scared he'd lose his job" excus
Re: (Score:2)
Suicide doesn't seem like an appropriate answer to a stressful job. He probably had problems well beyond Uber's bad HR policy. Loosing a job, your house, your car... isn't the end of the world. Anyone rational enough would realize this. But suicide is usually from problem well beyond external problems which needs to be treated.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Cry me a river (Score:2)
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
You what? Nowhere does it say he had a bad family life (actually, the fact she got him to see a doctor indicates that she was doing all she could). So blaming his wife is flat out contrary to what the article indicates.
This is purely and simply a management issue. If the manager didn't catch severe depression from overwork coming up on one of his employees, they're no manager at all. It's a _huge_ part of management, ensuring that your staff are performing correctly (and that doesn't mean just 'hitting targets', that's easy, it means "they're performing as human beings, with resilience and sufficient endurance"). And yes, I do management as well as having done the working all the way up to it. Hell, I've run companies before, and keeping people with high morale as much as possible is what gets you through the tough times.
When you become depressed and anxious (the article indicates he was suffering from comorbid anxiety and depression), then looking for an alternative is _not_ an option. The brain convinces you that you're not capable, or that nobody would want you.. Or that he'd fail his family and it would all go wrong unless he kept the money coming in.. All sorts of things, so it makes you prone to trying to keep what stability is there... Though his history shows that he was clearly able to perform in well managed environments, and excel.
There is one obvious variable that changed, and that's his workplace. After working at Uber, he tanked, after excelling at previous similar roles. This points to management and environment causing undue anxiety leading to depression. This was not identified at Uber (him saying that "his boss didn't like him" was quite possibly true, and at least shows that there was a huge disconnect in his direct management).
Not sure what the internals of the company are generally like (though it sounds like there's vast rumbling of discontent, which indicates that it's not being run properly), but it definitely points to a failure of management, and management represent the company. It's going to legally be tough for them to wriggle out of.
Much though I dislike 'Ambulance Chasing', I don't think this is chasing ambulances. It's a failure and negligence on the part of the management chain, and possibly general management focus too. If there's no penalty to doing this, it'll continue.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Interesting)
Absolutely and well said. Vote this man up.
We had a coworker whom wasn't handling the stress of our job well (by nature it is a high stress job and we try to select people whom thrive in crisis management). This guy just wasn't doing well and spiraling some. We couldn't convince him to leave, we couldn't move him to another job, and the process to get rif of an employee is quite a long time. We were worried about him.
That's when I saw my current manager do one of the absolute best things that I've ever seen done in a company. He called his wife in for a private meeting. She said that he was seeing doctors, looking for meds, etc, etc. He said that she needed to tell him to leave this job. She said that she tried but he was really invested in succeeding at this. That's when he said "You are his wife. You put your foot down on this. He comes home and you tell, not ask him, but tell him that he's putting in his two weeks. You say that it's because you're scared for your marriage and his life and nothing is worth it; that you'd rather be homeless with him than without him." Then he got the employee's mother's phone number from her and gave her a call and a light pre-brief that he was concerned for this employee's health and that if called she should also encourage him to separate from the job.
He put in his notice the next day. A month later he took my boss out to dinner to thank him for saving his life. He had been contemplating suicide and actually had a plan that he was going to execute on within the next week or so. The ironic thing is that because my boss is such a good guy, that added to the anxiety of him not being able to perform -- he desperately wanted to work for me box. Just wasn't in the right role. That's what good management looks like.
Re: (Score:3)
At first I was thinking that boss did it on the cheap by not laying of your coworker with a compensation package... then I realized that for the guy to loose his job could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Well played.
This manager is really the kind that inspire loyalty, something that I feel is missing in a lot of places in the Silicon Valley unfortunately. As companies demand loyalty from their individual contributors, they often forget that it has to work both ways.
Re: (Score:3)
I've read a lot of comments dissing managers for not being more... "managerial", I suppose. Reading this story, this manager was obviously top-notch, perceptive, and concerned about the health of his staff. (I hope he was good at the task-related responsibilities, too, and paid a LOT for his skillset. People like that are rare.)
I don't want to sound like a crusty old fart, but... until you've been there, there's a lot you don't understand. Of course, everything I'm about to say applies to people who act
Re: (Score:3)
I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town
The sane response would be to say, "wow, we really ought to stand together and do something to put an end to this" rather than this crab-bucket syndrome you're perpetuating.
Re: (Score:2)
With this guys credentials he couldn't get another job? Give me a break.
He could have gotten another regular tech job elsewhere. But if he bought into the startup culture, and spent more money than he had because he expected a big payoff with the IPO, a regular tech job couldn't pay the bills for the black hole he gotten himself into.
Re: (Score:2)
About the only thing you can spend too much on is rent, at least in the Bay Area. And that's resolved by moving, perhaps very far away (Hayward to San Francisco is not a very nice commute). People don't normally go out and buy lots of expensive cars when they get a new job. But they do often get into an apartment that is beyond their means. As for houses, it's hard to get a loan for a house without having some history at your new salary. The days of easy mortgages has long past.
Re: (Score:2)
People don't normally go out and buy lots of expensive cars when they get a new job.
I knew a Cisco engineer who bought two Tesla cars He couldn't afford one much less two but he had to outcompete the other engineers on the hardware specs. And then he wonders why he's stressed out all the time.
Re: (Score:3)
It's simple, the cars go away when you stop making payments. No more cars and [mostly] no more problems. Some people have 50K in credit card debt, it sucks and if you let it get to you it can ruin your relationships and affect your health. But it horrible debt is a solvable problem, I don't want people to get pushed to the point of suicide over it.
It's amazing how people can get themselves worked up over things that don't matter that much. Worst case is no Tesla and bad credit, but he can still feed his fam
Re: (Score:2)
I don't get why people have to status symbol themselves beyond their means.
It's called the American Dream.
Re: (Score:2)
File this under who gives a crap. I make a fraction of that money. I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money. With this guys credentials he couldn't get another job? Give me a break.
I'm surprised that you have to work that hard and travel so much, just to be an asshole. And really, I wouldn't expect being an asshole to pay all that well. Plenty of people are willing to do it. You probably just love the job, eh?
Re: (Score:2)
"fortune and fulfillment" - this. I
I believe having those 2 is probably the key to a happy life. It doesn't even mater if you're wise or intelligent - as long as you do what you like and make enough to get whatever you feel you need, you will be OK. Of course society and its consumerism step in to screw that amazing balance, but that's what society needs to move forward, not you, at least not immediately. What YOU need is either the endurance to keep that balance, or allow some risk for your own inclusion i
Re: (Score:2)
"A company's culture reflects the people at the top"
It could very well be the case here, and considering the stereotypical negative bashing other employees have reported only reinforces that.
Re: (Score:2)
"Joseph Thomas had worked slightly less than five months at Uber when he killed himself. "
He went from happy engineer to suicide in less than five months?
It can happen for all sorts of reasons, not all related to job stress.
Re: (Score:2)
If you get hired into a job you can't handle, face losing your $170k/year salary, and are stuck with your family in a city surrounded by the ultra-wealthy? Absolutely. Job changes are extremely stressful even without all those added pressures.
Re:Certainly job stress can contribute but... (Score:4, Interesting)
"He went from happy engineer to suicide in less than five months?"
If you don't have them already, have kids and get back to me. I'm very lucky that my wife has a great job as well, but I know lots of people with a family to support who are constantly worried. Even if you're not in debt up to your eyeballs (we're not,) it adds a lot of stress to your life. I have to live my life as if I'm going to lose my job at a moment's notice, because that's the world we live in now. Quadruple that stress if your spouse doesn't work, and add more on for each kid. It's not a sign of weakness; it's a sign of being a responsible person in my mind. Worrying about what happens to your family has to come first when you decide to go down that path. I feel bad for Mr. Thomas, because you have to be in a pretty dark place to feel like your life insurance policy is the best thing you can contribute.
I know it's an anachronism, but I do think things were better when people had more stable work and were able to stay with employers for a longer period of time. These days, it just seems like the cycles of boom and bust are increasing in frequency, and the amount of time it takes companies to cut employees or offshore just keeps getting shorter. I think I'm one of the only people who advocate for lifetime employment and no-layoff policies, but we had this only a few decades ago and life was much better. When people feel stable in their jobs they can relax, buy houses, buy cars, take vacations, etc. Now, we're more data-driven than ever and companies are using this to squeeze people harder.