China Is On Track To Fully Phase Out Cash (vice.com) 212
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via Motherboard: Experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, becomes the first to go totally cashless. In a poky sex toy shop in Sanlitun shopping district in central Beijing, a placard with a QR code is strategically placed next to a pink, vein-knobbled dildo called the Super Emperor, and a clitoral pump. Just scan your phone, and walk out with your purchase. The cigarette vendor across the street accepts smartphone payments too. A fast-moving queue of customers purchase smokes by scanning their phones over a tatty cardboard QR code. All the bars in Sanlitun, equal parts seedy and swish, still take cash, but have likewise implemented cashless pay, largely through the ubiquitous WeChat and Alipay app, as primary payment platforms. Beijing taxi drivers accept smartphone payments too. No one in the area uses physical money, for sex toys or otherwise. Largely due to China's vibrant fintech landscape, the recent rise of phone payments in the country has shunted cash onto the endangered list, perhaps somewhere alongside the pangolin. Many experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless. But when will this moment come?
China wants us to believe... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also known as "China wants us to believe that China Is On Track To Fully Phase Out Cash".
I've toured rural China with my Wife's family. Most folks outside the big cities only have power during the day, unless they are lucky and own a generator.
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Please specific the time of your visit. Twenty years ago, maybe.
Re:China wants us to believe... (Score:4, Interesting)
One renmibi banknote with a smiling portrait of Chairman Mao says they're not in a position to give up their paper currency any time soon.
Re:China wants us to believe... (Score:5, Informative)
I've toured rural China with my Wife's family.
In which century? China's economy has risen eight-fold in the last few decades. You might want to visit again.
Most folks outside the big cities only have power during the day
Nonsense. There may be a few remote villages that still use generators, but that is not "most people". For 99% of Chinese, grid electricity is available and reliable.
Their payment system doesn't rely on wall-power anyway. It is based on phones and the cellular network, which, btw, is faster, more reliable, and more ubiquitous than it is in America.
I was in Shanghai earlier this year, and I hired a handyman to fix my toilet. When he was finished, he popped up a QR code on his phone, I scanned it with my phone, and the bill was paid.
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Oh? Then how are the phones charged? Magical pixie dust?
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Magical pixie dust?
If you don't know how phones charge, it might as well be!
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Oh? Then how are the phones charged? Magical pixie dust?
You don't need reliable 24/7 power to charge a phone. Cell towers have backup batteries, so they continue to work through outages.
If you live off the grid, you can still have a cellphone.
Re:China wants us to believe... (Score:5, Funny)
UBS-C allows you to charge a phone from another phone. It's phones all the way down.
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So does regular USB with an OTG cable.
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sorry bill but this is just not true.
I too lived in Shanghai. But China is a big country and it is a huge difference between Shanghai and some of the smaller inland cities. Not to mention real rural areas.
And even in Shanghai, cash is prevalent, more than in the EU city I now live. The main reason to use electronic payments is the nuisance of paying any significant amount with 100 RMB bills.
But try to go to a lokal market as any not upper middle class native and you will see cash everywhere.
Re:China wants us to believe... (Score:4, Informative)
"In which century? China's economy has risen eight-fold in the last few decades. You might want to visit again."
This fucking century. I do tons of business with China and once you get outside the major city areas it's fucking dirt poor rural areas.
Perhaps you should try looking for real Chinese culture instead of sticking your ass in the metro areas.
Re: China wants us to believe... (Score:2)
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Slashdot has finally finalized its registration system for monkeys? Great! That'll dramatically improve the average quality of comments.
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Slashdot has finally finalized its registration system for monkeys? Great! That'll dramatically improve the average quality of comments.
Oooo ooo. Ooo oo AH AH AH oo oo AH AH AH AH AH!
That said, you're not doing much for comment quality when you can't even tell neolithic philosophy from monkey talk.
Stone age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Monkey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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" No villiages are still using generators."
That's a fat lie. Go talk to the roughly 100 million Chinese living in abject poverty. Go stay in one of their villages which is not inside a metropolitan area.
There are places in China where it's 100% infeasible to run power to. In those places live many people.
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This has nothing to do with modernity, other than it is the dictator's Holy Grail of being able to track all financial transactions, and specifically, those of competitors to power.
Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitarians (Score:5, Insightful)
Phasing out cash is a great tool for every totalitarian system. Because then, you can only pay for something if you actually are allowed to by the government. Also, it allows for total big brother like surveillance.
The new tools that technology gives us allow for real strict totalitarian regimes, and it seems that China is seizing the opportunity.
Re:Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitari (Score:4, Insightful)
Phasing out cash is a great tool for every totalitarian system.
China is not totalitarian. They are authoritarian. There is a difference.
As long as they don't challenge authority, Chinese people actually have greater freedom to go about their lives than Americans do: Americans are four times more likely to be arrested and incarcerated by their government.
Re:Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitari (Score:5, Insightful)
I imagine a small proportion of black slaves in America were arrested and incarcerated, as well. That's hardly the only measure of freedom, however.
"So long as you freely allow authoritarians to dictate what you can and can't do, without resisting or protesting" is a pretty big exception to freedom.
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"So long as you freely allow authoritarians to dictate what you can and can't do, without resisting or protesting" is a pretty big exception to freedom.
Authoritarians do not "dictate what you can and can't do". That is "totalitarianism" and China is nothing like that. Chinese people are free to travel abroad, change jobs, associate with whoever they want, live where they want. The main difference between them and Americans is that they have less reason to fear the police.
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Great, so instead of getting a trial by jury, I am most likely to lose at great cost and expense for growing a coca or cannabis plant or poppy pod, I am likely to skip the 'fair trial' and go right to the organ harvesting.
Sounds like an improvement...
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I think you're making a distinction without a difference. "as long as they don't challenge authority" applies to both countries. The question is in how restrictive the authorities are.
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The question is in how restrictive the authorities are.
Indeed. That is why I specifically mentioned that the risk of having your door kicked down in the middle of the night, and the police hauling you off to jail is four times higher in America.
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Yes, I suppose as long as you confine your activities to working your 18hr shift at foxconn like a good socialist cog and never rock the boat, everything's 'great.' Your stat is meaningless, if it's even accurate, because the countries are not on even keel when it comes to human rights and civil liberties.
Re: Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitar (Score:2)
>Americans are four times more likely to be arrested and incarcerated by their government.
Because American police does its job better
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Bitcoin would like to have a word with you.
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Bitcoin would like to have a word with you.
Bitcoin is not different in any way. Was that your point? Because if not, ROFL.
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Nope. Real fights for freedom are won and lost at courts, political rallies and in elected offices.
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Sometimes courts, rallies, and elections don't work (eg: this last one).
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Who said 'just' paying cash will 'fix' the problem of governmental abuse? It can help mitigate the problem by denying the opportunity for mass abuse in the first place. No one said it was a total solution. Same thing with weapons, though they're usually brought out when people are at their wits end, en masse.
Sounds like you're more interested in punching holes in bad left wing stereotypes of the right than anything else.. Strawmen are so boring.
Re:Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitari (Score:4, Insightful)
Government doesn't care a shit if you buy bunny-fur bondage gear or pay strippers.
But my wife does, and she sees the credit card bills.
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Government doesn't care a shit if you buy bunny-fur bondage gear or pay strippers.
But it's convenient to have that information and be able to use it to blackmail and/or put pressure on someone if it's convenient for them. For example, threatening to let the wife know, or simply discrediting someone by exposing their furry hobbies to the public at large.
Besides which, you assume that just because something's legal now it won't be made illegal. Not because the government gives a damn about that issue in itself, but because- again- it's convenient to be able to hold these "crimes" over pe
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It's simpler than that. If a central authority controls all payment, they can eliminate you simply by removing you from the system. You can't eat, you can't buy anything, you can't travel. you have no way to pay anyone.
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Well, don't commit crimes. Duh.
Way to go to miss the point being made. Unless you genuinely *did* mean that you'd be the obsequiously-deluded type happy to avoid behaviour that people in free countries consider basic rights, but which have been criminalised in this case.
Not that the intention is that you're supposed to be able to follow them anyway, but that the government/regime can catch you in one of a million ways under laws that are impossible to follow.
I've no doubt that even under a non-maliciously written legal system in a fr
Re:Phasing out cash is a great tool for totalitari (Score:5, Insightful)
Phasing out cash is a great tool to get alternative barter systems going. Human nature evolves around restrictions like a non-anonymous payment system.
In prison, for example, and during wartime, too, are packs of cigarettes a fine means of payment. Tobacco doesn't quickly go bad, you can divide a pack easily into smaller parts in case of smaller transactions and the barter even comes with a box to hold the small cash amounts together. The box makes it easy to count. And it's a commonality in prison. Thus, great as exchange of value when selling and buying contraband.
In total wartime, same thing. If cash leaves, other barter systems replace it. Immediately.
If digital currency replaces anonymous cash, and the digital currency is not guaranteed to be anonymous (if criminals can't use it); it'll get replaced. Immediately. I expect there to be alternative barter systems in China already. They will grow in popularity the moment it's no longer possible to pay and sell anonymously with the national currencies of China.
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Phasing out cash is a great tool to get alternative barter systems going.
Mod this up. Bartering will spring up inevitably within any "cashless" society.
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Anonymity might be removed, too. This is fine as long as you work with (as in, for or pro) the system that has eyes on all purchases and transactions taking place.
For example if that system allows a certain amount of (big fish) criminal activity to take place in (or with, within) its currency (world), then it might not be a problem (for the system).
And this would or could actually be beneficial for said system (and its ruling elite and powerful huge fish). As then the big criminal fish are easily detected,
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(note, I'm indeed a scuba diver)
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Oh, absolutely. Don't worry. I want anonymity, encryption and all that for the same reasons Snowden needed it and free speech to flourish. But only if a currency allows it, will criminals use it. Similarly are the smarter criminals already increasingly using truly anonymous communication systems like OTR, Tor, etc.
Interestingly are the terrorist-criminals not using much of that. I guess that's because they calculate that they only need to stay alive until the moment they'll strike society. And if they'd use
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Indeed. When recently the EU started phasing out 500 EUR bills "to fight terrorism", the lie was made immediately obvious when the Swiss National Bank made a statement that they a) saw no reason to phase out 1000 CHF notes (around 900 EUR) and that b) 1000 CHF bills had various legitimate use for example when buying a car with cash or when buying livestock.
The whole phasing out of cash is just an attempt to remove power from the citizens.
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No, the poster is worried that globally there is a trend towards cashless, or at least, the media reports on cashless as being the next "big thing". The only advantages that cashless bring are to the totalitarian state, and the middle-men who charge transaction fees. Living in the US I don't give a fuck if China goes cashless, but I do very much hope it does not happen here. Finally, yes, there are other social and political issues that are more important right now, but the topic of this discussion is the c
phase out cash, BAD idea (Score:5, Interesting)
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The US is building its own form of soviet union 2.0 (minus the overt political/philosophical figureheads at least ftm), except this time it will be enforced by computer. I predict greater disasters ahead.
Obvious takeaway from TFA (Score:5, Funny)
The author is hung up on sex toys - and possibly cigarettes.
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Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
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How do you give your child pocket money?
Send it to their phone. Children can use WePay just as well as adults.
Tip to a beggar?
Get rid of beggars.
There are millions of situations where cash is best
Not really, apart from illegal drug purchases.
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Tip to a beggar?
Get rid of beggars.
Might be wrong, but was told from a few sources that handing cash/goods to a beggar is illegal in China.
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>> How do you give your child pocket money?
>
> Send it to their phone. Children can use WePay just as well as adults.
Lemeesee... after all the fighting to prevent kids (and their parents) from being ripped off with "in-game purchases", you now want your kid running around with a debit/credit card, or a phone hooked up to your credit card?!? No thanks. I'm sure that cellphone companies would just ***LOVE*** to have every family with a husband and wife and 2 kids end up with 4 cellphone accounts. A
Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't worry. Before we need to take cash from your cold dead heads; society will have replaced currency with a different barter system. Happened plenty of times in history. Especially in times of currency crisis, war, etc. Also look at prisons to learn how micro societies deal with the problem: in many prisons are packs of cigarettes the popular means of payment.
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It's anonymous, so who cares? Your chances of getting caught are too slim to care too much. Note that this only counts in environments where using national currency for similar transactions ain't anonymous (buying goods from a minor without parental consent is illegal too, so if you'd do that with non-anonymous currency then you'd also face jail-time). In such an environment you're best bet is indeed to exchange his used phone for a few packs of cigarettes. You can buy the packs legally (still) in any count
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Do you want a paper trail leading back to:
....
-pornographic purchases?
-medications? (how about STD or mental illness stuff)
Cashless purchases don't mean publicly available purchase history. And the government doesn't care a bit about your porn habits (as long as it's legal). Also treating yourself for STDs without getting regular blood tests to monitor progress is extremely stupid.
Have you noticed people getting shy about googling stuff now that they know they're being tracked online? Imagine that shyness extending to EVERYTHING. Every purchase. So basically everything.
Newsflash: people already buy most of their stuff using credit cards, especially Internet pr0n.
Plus, if you actually physically have money, the government can't just disappear it with the click of a button
They sure can. Just put you into jail for contempt of the court until you pay up. Seriously, if you're depending on cash to protect you from government then
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"Outside the capital, beggars have been spotted with QR codes hanging around their necks to accept digital donations."
Probably Obama-phones or something.
Bitcoin, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's what the cool kids use to pay.
Gratuitous product placement (Score:2)
dupeception (Score:2)
Experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, becomes the first to go totally cashless.
Many experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless.
You managed to dupe your own article within itself, is that a record?
Wait what about the fees? (Score:2)
So everyone is just ok with paying an extra 3% per transaction? On top of taxes?
Re:Wait what about the fees? (Score:5, Informative)
In Europe interchange is more like 0,2 - 0,3% per transaction, which means 2-3 EUR per every thousand EUR spent - acceptable for all but the poorest. China has limits on interchange at 0,35 - 0,45%. Its only the US that commonly has fees about 5-10 times higher...
link about limits in China:
http://www.paymentlawadvisor.c... [paymentlawadvisor.com]
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For things like bank-transfers it is even lower. Many banks have stopped charging customers for bank-transfers in Europe.
That is a huge win (Score:4, Insightful)
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I believe that the governments would have already taken care of payment platforms and made sure that something like this is a must have for phones tablets, almost like the emergency calling
Also, how would China be ahead of India in this regard? India started last year by getting rid of its biggest denomination notes, and the public, rather than risk seeing their money rendered worthless, quickly jumped on the e-money bandwagon. All India needs to do is phase out their remaining denominations - 100 &
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All I remember reading is what a huge nightmare it was, people running around in India looking for cash, empty ATMs, people lining up, etc.
Brown enevelopes (Score:2)
China ... also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless. But when will this moment come?
If I had to guess, I would say that time is when officials stop accepting bribes and criminals stop trying to sell stolen goods. But the real and final end to cash is when the drug dealers accept cards, don't mind having a fully auditable trail of their transactions and start giving receipts.
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As the whole drug-dealing business is just a result of artificial scarcity imposed by the religious fuckups that think they can dictate what others can and cannot enjoy, this will eventually happen.
1984 was childs-play. (Score:2)
It's amazing how outdatet and steam-agey 1984 seems from a 2017 perspective. The encroachment on total control of the individual would be beyond anything imaginable 30 years ago if this Smartphone Cash thing gains foothold and pushes cash away.
It's definitely a pressing time to get a good look into cryptocurrency.
My 2 eurocents (cash).
And when the finance IT crashes? (Score:2)
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The later this happens, the larger the catastrophe. Stupidity, nativity and greed will make sure it will happen. Technology these days is nowhere near as secure as it needs for this to be dependable enough to perform a critical function.
3% of GDP goes to Visa/MC (Score:2)
Anti Crime Delight ! (Score:2)
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The government won't go crazy strictly enforcing laws on the population using data from cashless transactions. They don't want people to stop buying drugs, paying bookies, strippers, etc. As "Dr. Ferris" says in "Atlas Shrugged" in his monologue to Reardon: "We *want* these laws to be broken...when one doesn't have enough criminals one makes them...you cash in on guilt."
They just want the data so that if someone becomes "inconvenient" all it takes is a brief perusal of the target's transaction history to fi
IT security is not there yet (Score:2)
They will run into severe security issues sooner or later. Especially mobile phone security is so bad these days it is staggering. My guess would be that at the moment, these payments do not offer enough pay-off if hacked, but that can change at any time.
So are the phones tracked too? (Score:2)
Think how this could possibly be abused (Score:4, Insightful)
For any who think this would be a grand idea, consider how it can / will be abused.
Examples:
Every single purchase will be indexed and analyzed for whatever purpose. From the things you like, to the foods you eat, to hobbies you enjoy. Folks like Google have an orgasm every time they think about such a system. Make no mistake, it will be for sale / available to those with the funds for it and it will most certainly be used against you if / when the need arises.
Governments can effectively control your behavior because to step out of line in any way means they can just freeze your accounts and too bad if you have bills to pay or would like to eat this month. Perhaps you are identified in taking part in a protest they don't wish to see. Maybe they don't like your online opinions which run contrary to their own. Maybe you're a whistle blower. Etc. Etc.
Just KNOWING they can shut your life down by freezing your only financial means to survive will have a chilling effect on your behavior and you'll be far less likely to step out of line.
They want to watch and control every single aspect of your life at all times. What you watch, what you say / believe, down to how you act and think. Privacy of any kind does not mesh well with how they would prefer things to be.
You've read the above using your own government as a variable in the equation. Now replace your government with one that may not be quite as tolerant. Imagine what such a regime would do with this sort of system in place. You think you know what oppression is ? It would pale in comparison to what it will become.
Think of it as a Gorilla sized version of PayPal. Where if you do ANYTHING they disagree with, ( and the TOS can change with every new administration ) they simply shut off access to your funds. Only, this time, there isn't any alternative for you to fall back on and you're just SOL. Your life is effectively over until you agree to play the game by their rules. ( regardless if you agree with them or not )
I think I would prefer to keep the cash option available.
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Not exactly a "bank account". An account managed by a cell phone company with convenience stores and such acting as tellers. Google M-PESA. The M-PESA system is said to work pretty well in Kenya and Afghanistan. Here's a link http://www.economist.com/blogs... [economist.com]
Re:Hackers Paradise (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Hackers Paradise (Score:2)
It's impossible to walk out of the store without paying. I have not used cash for 6 months and only use wechat and alipay for every single purchase. I'll run through each of the payment mechanisms:
1. Small Shop
you take the goods, ask how much it costs, they say 24 rmb, you scan their qr code and type 24 press send and then the sellar hears 24rmb read out aloud by their phone. If not. You show them the purchase ok your phone.
2. Buying in a slightly larger store
You click onto the pay screen in either alipa
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...more Government Paradise. Now every transaction can be tracked. Those who buy the Super Emperor get that fact dished up next time they goof up at work.
I do agree that hackers will love this, one flaw in the app and plenty can be compromised. I wonder what is needed to create an account? An address? A bank account? Scan of a photo ID? Asking otherwise, how easy will it be to get a cheap prepaid, hook it up to a bogus or stolen account, and then clean out shelves at stores without ever having to pay? Currently, if someone walks out of a store without paying good security will notice that. If walking out of the store without physically paying is the norm, how easy would it be to fake a successful QR scan and walk out? Also, how easy is it to tamper with the QR codes? Move a few blocks to a different spot and put a sticker over the original sign...sure, still paying the store money, but instead of 299 it is now 2.99.
Stealing? I bet the losses with paperless money yields a ten times lower rate of loss due to shoplifting than otherwise. You may need your cellphone to release an item from the display case. The analogy, look at how you purchase gasoline. The vendor trades electronic payment to armed robbery or guards the business from the clerk giving himself 2o gallons of gasoline without the dispensing being financially recorded.
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You need a bank account for your pay check.
Since when?
A check is a financial instrument. Upon that check is the name of a bank. That bank must honor its financial instruments. Take the check to that bank. If they wont turn it into cash, call the police.
If your employer insists on direct deposit, call your State labor board because thats probably not legal in your State. State labor laws are quite specific about things.
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I suspect that the military have quite a few exemptions from normal employment laws.
Re: Hackers Paradise (Score:2)
Those who insist on not having a bank account are those who want to skip alimony payments.
Nice strawman, fuckface. Go off yourself.
Re: Hackers Paradise (Score:4, Informative)
Those who insist on not having a bank account are those who want to skip alimony payments.
Nice strawman, fuckface. Go off yourself.
Actually, he has a point. I worked in payroll over a decade and that was the large majority of them.
China has barely implemented a slightly functional credit card system. As with most stories from there, don't believe 99% of it. And of course its all about tracking people, not helping them.
Re: Hackers Paradise (Score:2)
Re:I Don't Buy It (Score:4, Informative)
I would rather have a US $100 dollar bill than an electronic promise to pay me.
Wechat is not a credit based system. You tap, and there is an immediate transfer of money from your account to mine. No "promise" is involved.
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I am not looking forward to the future where I need to have ten different payment apps installed on my phone (and my phone must NEVER run out of power!) in order to be sure I can buy the stuff I want on a shopping trip.
Found the LUDDITE! (Score:2)
ONLY apps can app apps, NOT LUDDITE currency!
Apps!
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Seriously. How backwards are Americans? I haven't carried cash on me in years (except when giving people money for birthdays or buying something at some cheap asian store that refuses to accept EFTPOS because they're too cheap to pay the bank fees).
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Seriously. How backwards are Americans? I haven't carried cash on me in years (except when giving people money for birthdays or buying something at some cheap asian store that refuses to accept EFTPOS because they're too cheap to pay the bank fees).
Those networks that process debit and credit transactions have been known to go down and become inaccessible at inopportune moments. Sometimes it is a regional outage, and sometimes it is local (or just an individual store). In those cases, those who don't carry cash are completely SOL and have to abandon their shopping carts, while those who do carry can make their purchases and get on with their next activity of the day.
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Gold was worth pretty close to zero where I live before the white men showed up. Somewhat common rock that was pretty well useless unlike things like jade which could be used to make a good arrow head or even seashells that were quite rare far away from the ocean. The there were useful things like Ooligans that not only were food but also could be burned like a candle for light, only available at certain times of the year and hard to transport.
Gold is just a natural occurring, pretty, rare fiat currency.
Re:people without phones (Score:5, Funny)
"Hi, yeah. I dropped my phone and it smashed, I need to buy a new one."
"Okay, no problem! Just swipe your phone here to pay for the new phone!"
"But my phone is destroyed ..."
"Sucks to be you, you're OUT of the game forever!"
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The other aspect of this is that not every smartphone owner is an Android or iPhone user. There are still people who use Blackberries, Lumias and other phones out there.
I think that for this to work, any payment technology would have to work not only w/ the leading platforms - iOS & Android - but also w/ as many legacy platforms - older Android versions that can't be upgraded, Blackberry OS, Windows Phone 8 & above, and so on. And if possible, 2G phones as well. Only then can this move away fro