Canada's Play For Immigrant Tech Talent (axios.com) 257
An anonymous reader shares an Axios report: When it comes to high-skilled immigration, the U.S.'s loss could be Canada's gain. Canada recently launched a Global Skills Strategy visa program to make it easier for its companies to bring in foreign workers with specific technology or business skills. The program allows firms to have a position pre-approved and get visas within two weeks -- a stark contrast to the months-long U.S. visa process. Why it matters: The Trump administration has moved to restrict the number of immigrants coming into the U.S. on work visas, which worries big tech and consulting firms that use the H-1B visa program to fill technical and specialized jobs. Canada's government is seizing the moment to provide an option for engineers, executives and other tech talent who may no longer qualify for an H-1B visa or who simply don't feel comfortable staying in the U.S. Open for business: Navdeep Bains, Canada's Minister of Innovation, told Axios that Canada wants to be open to ideas, open to trade, and "more importantly, we want to be open to people" in order for companies to grow. Bains stopped short of framing the program as a way to poach talent from Silicon Valley, instead saying that the government is "open to whatever region has talent."
theodp (Score:2, Informative)
All those Americans who want to leave can now go (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:All those Americans who want to leave can now g (Score:4, Informative)
Great opportunity for all those Americans who want to get away from the current government to leave. Of course, they have to have a useful skill.
There is only one skill you will ever need to get any job anywhere in the world that you want:
You need the skill to be willing to work for less than anyone else who wants the job.
It's just like the two guys getting chased by a bear . . . you don't need to run faster than the bear . . . just faster than the other guy.
High Tech "bosses" lie like rugs when they claim that they want to attract high skill folks. All that they really want are cheaper "human" resources.
I say we haul those execs up in front of a Congressional investigative committee, and ask them, Big Tobacco Style, if they truly believe that cigarettes are healthy and non-addictive. In this case, ask them if they need to attract the best talent, or if they are just "bottom fishing"; trying to see have far they can push down IT wages.
Re: All those Americans who want to leave can now (Score:2, Informative)
Right now our problem in Canada is finding anyone skilled in certain areas, regardless of salaries. Decent data scientists, for example, are close to impossible to recruit. Despite very high salaries and benefits, enrolment in computer science was down, last i checked.
Even in non-tech, there is a labor shortage. Unemployment in Quebec is at the lowest since we record it, with all the boomers retiring. Ive talked with numerous factory managers that are looking to robotize, not to lower cost, but because they
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This simply is not true. There is no labor shortage, and in fact the very idea of a "labor shortage" is pure lunacy; it cannot exist. The only thing that can exist is a shortage of labor willing to work for the wages offered.
Despite very high salaries and benefits,
Wrong. Canada is infamous for paying peanuts for tech jobs. That's why so many Canadian tech workers move south of the border to work in the US, despite a much worse social safety net and much higher healthcare costs. Those worse conditions
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This simply is not true. There is no labor shortage, and in fact the very idea of a "labor shortage" is pure lunacy; it cannot exist. The only thing that can exist is a shortage of labor willing to work for the wages offered.
That is bollocks.
From where should a high skilled developer come?
Hu? They are not there. Simple. That had nothing to do with wages.
Your particular company, can offer a super high wage to get some developer switch to you from another company.
Now the other company has an open job offer an
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You need the skill to be willing to work for less than anyone else who wants the job.
... a no brainer actually.
In your world. The rest of the world is quite different.
No one is replacing my job because he is cheaper. Actually I was the first applying for it who could prove in an interview that he has the required qualifications.
So: the job offer is closed. No one can even apply to it
I terminated about 10 open applications today and canceled one phone interview.
If I need a new job, it takes me 3 - 5 days to
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That there really isn't that great an influx of useable and creative (key word creative) talent on these programs, but that it merely gets used to bring in cheap, lower quality labor to help drive down the prevailing wage.
You guys have fun with that.
Re:All those Americans who want to leave can now g (Score:5, Insightful)
We've been having fun with it for decades and decades. The key is to be welcome to them, embrace their culture and contributions, and they turn into great Canadians of their own volition.
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I don't think Canada's looking to import US white trash. We're waaaay over our quota on those.
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>integrating pieces of shit that don't want to integrate
If you read the post above yours, you'd see that Canada really doesn't care if you want to integrate or not. So long as they don't commit crimes and don't cause problems, nobody cares what it is that your selection of culture wants of you.
>are less intelligent than average
That is doubtful, even if if they are, again, if they're not committing crimes, if they are earning a living, and don't cause problems, nobody cares in Canada.
>and have a hi
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I'd love to know what your definition of 'great Canadian' is.
My definition is the one who invented the escargot poutine I had in Ottowa.
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Yeah. This is just to drive wages down. There are a lot of unemployed engineers in Canada.
Re: All those Americans who want to leave can now (Score:3)
I know several tech people that have left Canada to work for companies like Google and Epic games and other big tech firms. Even if this program merely stems the flow or evens out the egress, it may be a win.
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I know several tech people that have left Canada to work for companies like Google and Epic games and other big tech firms. Even if this program merely stems the flow or evens out the egress, it may be a win.
Most of the folks I know that have left Canada did it for higher wages and more opportunity. I suppose Canada can attempt to backfill with immigrants from other nations, but I suspect in the best case all it will do is create a "discount" Silicon Valley (similar to India, but which isn't 12.5 timezones away).
A better strategy would be for Canada figure out how to attract more investment money, not discount employees to prevent their current brain-drain (and might accelerate their current problems). Actual
It will help their economy (Score:5, Interesting)
Canada's a bit different. They at least has single payer and a moderately functional safety net (albeit not one as robust as the Scandinavian countries AFAIK). They might see some benefit. It depends on whether their ruling class can exploit the divide between city & rural voters to cut those services like they did in America. They're definitely trying.
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Aren't immigrants part of the 99%?
You're a troll (Score:3)
Venezuela is an economy in freefall because they have exactly one valuable commodity: oil. Oil is crap right now. Oil will recover and so will Venezuela. If they weren't being punished by right wingers and denied the kinds of aid countries like that used to get when they fell on hard
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Seems to be a US specific problem. In Europe there are efforts to attract talent that might otherwise have gone to the US too, e.g. France is making a big push. It doesn't seem to result in depressed wages for "native" skilled workers, if anything it has been shown to push their wages up.
It seems like if a skilled worker is needed for a particular project but not available, the project doesn't happen and other people who would have worked on it don't get employed either. Plus the rules here don't create the
Re:All those Americans who want to leave can now g (Score:5, Interesting)
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> Is it good for Canadians? I guess it's good for the Canadians who own
> tech/engineering companies but
Just stop and think about it for even a second....
Do you think the economy would be better off if we stopped teaching engineering?
Because that would increase demand for the few that were left and drive up their wages.
Or do you think that training more engineers might lead to more engineering firms? Which leads to more employment, which leads to more open positions, which leads to more offers,
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hey bud, along the toronto-waterloo corridor there are three world class universities that teach a multitude of engineering subjects. We teach plenty of engineering and our engineers ARE having a hard time finding work. I am a recent graduate of university in Canada and many of my fellow students are having trouble finding work.
The problem is that Canada is refusing to learn from the united states and hoe the H1B visa's were used to drive wages down. It has already been happening and will continue to degrad
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Hey...let Canada learn from our lessons...
That there really isn't that great an influx of useable and creative (key word creative) talent on these programs, but that it merely gets used to bring in cheap, lower quality labor to help drive down the prevailing wage.
Well, it becomes a tool for corporation to dump the wage down because how the way the program is currently working in the U.S... Corporations have already learned and exploited the loop hole of the program for a long time, but no one (from both sides) does anything to fix it but rather use it to their political advantage.
I don't know how the way the program works in Canada, so I wouldn't make an assumption like you do.
Visa isn't the main issue for Canada (Score:3, Informative)
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You may make twice the money, but you'll be in the US. TANSTAAFL.
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higher salaries != higher disposable income.
I have a decent two bed room apartment for under $1000/year that is a 15 minute bike ride to downtown in a lively neighborhood with numerous public transit links.
Good luck finding anything decent for less than $1000/year in NYC or San Francisco.
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$1000/year! Wow, I'm moving to Canada now!
Heck I'm willing to pay $1000/month (that's half of my mortgage now) which should get me a mansion with about a dozen rooms at that rate.
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Do people really not understand that even though they make 2x as much their cost of living will more than offset it, but to mention quality of life.
Huh? Since when? (Score:2)
The Trump administration has moved to restrict the number of immigrants coming into the U.S. on work visas, which worries big tech and consulting firms that use the H-1B visa program to fill technical and specialized jobs.
When in the more recent past has anyone used H-1B for that? Is that even legal?
More people live in Tokyo than in all of Canada. (Score:3)
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Not sure if serious? Tokyo - 13 million. Canada - 35 million.
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What we should do and how (Score:3)
The reason why we don't let any immigrant in to work is we want to protect American jobs. On average, most H1B1 visa holders get paid about 10% less than American workers. I suggest a simple solution. 10% foreign worker tax on employers.
3 Steps:
1) Offer a new visa that lets you work in America, but your employer must pay an additional 10% tax beyond all normal taxes. If the employer fails to pay this tax, it is treated as if they themselves cheated on their personal taxes.
2) These visas last for up to 7 months, and then you have to leave the country for at least 3 months before you apply again. You can't get one if you are sick or pregnant at the time of application.
3) These visas are unlimited. We would give out 500 million of them if that many people asked.
This solves most of the immigration problems. It lets employers hire people if they can't find Americans willing to do the job, but won't let foreigners take our jobs willy-nilly. It kills the industry supporting illegal immigration by removing their customers, negating the need for a fence, let alone a wall. It gives our country a nice extra boost of cash to pay for any additional expenses, or (more likely) reduce the deficit.
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What has pregnancy to do with that?
If I was a woman and wanted my kid to be a born american, I simply entered with a tourist visa. Facepalm.
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> I suggest a simple solution. 10% foreign worker tax on employers.
Interesting. Be more specific though, do it on the visa type.
Ahhhhh (Score:2, Insightful)
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> The job climate in Canada isn't that great
Ummm, no. The unemployment rate is currently the lowest it has ever been.
Note that we count the numbers differently, so our 6.9% seems a lot higher but is in fact basically only slightly higher than the US.
The US does have much higher labor mobility, which helps even out shocks. So things like the meltdown in Saskatchewan and Alberta which have a significant effect on the current numbers would likely be lower in the US.
They're all yours Canada! (Score:2)
Amost 60 years ago it was Canada's loss, US gain (Score:5, Interesting)
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> Talk to some old timer Canucks
In eastern Canada, maybe. Talk to them out west and it's universally "good riddance". There it was seen as a massive and horribly expensive labor welfare program.
It's not about a handful of rocket scientists (Score:3)
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Workers are not enough (Score:2)
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Unless more US companies open Canadian offices and create jobs to be filled with these H1B losers this will go nowhere.
I suspect this is exactly the hoped-for outcome. It's a net-win for Canada if a company moves here. Even if 75% of their positions are H1B-equivalents, that other 25% is new jobs for Canadians, plus Canada gets more corporate income tax and other such benefits.
do they have a good min pay level and local worker (Score:2)
do they have a good min pay level and do they need to do a real search for local workers first?
if we did things like Canada... (Score:5, Insightful)
We'd enforce our immigration laws strictly and kick out illegal immigrants, instead of harboring 10-20 million illegals and dreaming up new ways to let them stay.
We'd give strong preference to immigrants and workers with high skills, instead of having a race- and family based immigration system.
We'd cut the Medicare/Medicaid budget in half, or alternatively, cover all Americans on the current Medicare/Medicaid budget.
How about it?
All those US PhDs going to AI in Canada (Score:2)
After you realize that most post-docs don't make so much, and are far more concerned with the sweet sweet reward of Single Payer National Healthcare that Canada has, you realize that, after they come to the US to get their PhD or Masters, they are going to Canada to work.
Sad.
O Canada (Score:2)
It is sad that Canada wants to gut its middle class.
It should make for some interesting elections there.
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> It should make for some interesting elections there.
I did. This issue was front and center during the last election, when the incumbent started seeing headwinds and began talking about immigration. The instant he did that his poll numbers plummeted and he lost the election.
The incoming guy, who's primary attribute is good looks and a name, immediately brought in 25,000 syrians. To do so, everyday Canadians like myself had to pony up cash to sponsor them, about $20,000 on $25000 on average. This present
Is it just H-1B North? (Score:3)
In the US, the original intent of the H-1B visa was to be a safety valve to find and hire the most talented people you could find regardless of their current location. I actually know several people whose employers used it for this purpose. But, it has been shown that all the body shops use it to bring in cheap labor. The visa rules state that the minimum salary is $60K, and it never got adjusted for inflation. So, say you're a company in San Francisco and have to pay your IT staff $200K a year just to keep their heads above water. TCS or Infosys or Cognizant will come around and offer you 2 "qualified resources" for the same price, and you get to wash your hands of the IT department. It's not surprising they win outsourcing deals.
Hopefully Canada won't repeat the same mistake. I doubt it though -- there's no point in participating in politics unless you have millions of dollars to buy the laws you want. I'm sure all the big companies have purchased themselves nice loopholes similar to the ones we have. It's a shame too, because I would move to Toronto or Montreal in 2 seconds if I could find a good job.
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In the US, the original intent of the H-1B visa was to be a safety valve to find and hire the most talented people you could find regardless of their current location. I actually know several people whose employers used it for this purpose. But, it has been shown that all the body shops use it to bring in cheap labor. The visa rules state that the minimum salary is $60K, and it never got adjusted for inflation. So, say you're a company in San Francisco and have to pay your IT staff $200K a year just to keep their heads above water. TCS or Infosys or Cognizant will come around and offer you 2 "qualified resources" for the same price, and you get to wash your hands of the IT department. It's not surprising they win outsourcing deals.
Hopefully Canada won't repeat the same mistake. I doubt it though -- there's no point in participating in politics unless you have millions of dollars to buy the laws you want. I'm sure all the big companies have purchased themselves nice loopholes similar to the ones we have. It's a shame too, because I would move to Toronto or Montreal in 2 seconds if I could find a good job.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! That was never the intent of the H1B visa.
You're confusing it with the EB1 visa. EB1 grants direct green card - no work permits.
H1B was to provide a temporary work permit in a specialized field that an employer cannot fulfill LOCALLY.
Example, Company A needs skill S to finish project P. They look for people with skill S looking for a job in Company A's city. They can't find anyone - everyone with skill S is happily employed. So, they hire an H1B with skill S. That is the intent of
"Talent" (Score:2)
These visas are still arbitrarily limited to people with advanced degrees. They (generally) don't target the tech talent that actually knows what the fuck it's doing.
They'll only come to Canada to get into the US (Score:2)
I'm Canadian, and this is a great country to live in, but most of the people I've met overseas who are considering coming to Canada are only doing it because it's considered easier to migrate to Canada if you have a graduate degree, and then they're still looking to get into the United States, once they're in Canada. For some reason that I don't quite understand, the idea of just migrating to Canada because it's a great place to live doesn't occur to them. Of course there are lots of people who immigrate
Canada can afford to do this (Score:2)
It's a country with the population of California, but is geographically the second largest country in the world.
Re: But I don't want to freeze my ass off... (Score:2, Informative)
Vancouver has the mildest climate. But no one can afford it.
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Just like California!
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Which part of Canada is similar in climate to Silicon Valley and/or California?
Guess that depends on what you define as comfortable.
Barely living above poverty on a six-figure income, dreaming of the day you could actually afford to buy a house or save for retirement is a rather unique climate that is somehow justified with little more than Califuckinawesome weather...
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Barely living above poverty on a six-figure income, dreaming of the day you could actually afford to buy a house or save for retirement is a rather unique climate that is somehow justified with little more than Califuckinawesome weather...
I already do that on a five-figure income in Silicon Valley.
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Barely living above poverty on a six-figure income, dreaming of the day you could actually afford to buy a house or save for retirement is a rather unique climate that is somehow justified with little more than Califuckinawesome weather...
I already do that on a five-figure income in Silicon Valley.
Hate to break it to you, but US poverty line income is five figures ($22,162 for a family of four with two children under 18).
Re:But I don't want to freeze my ass off... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hate to break it to you, but US poverty line income is five figures ($22,162 for a family of four with two children under 18).
The poverty level in Silicon Valley and San Francisco is $100K per year for a family of four.
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so Vancouver then
Re:But I don't want to freeze my ass off... (Score:5, Interesting)
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and then get super humid with a zillion bugs the rest of the time.
We need to work on genetically engineering dragonflies so there's a lot more of them and they're more resistant to whatever things in the environment are hurting their reproduction. Dragonflies are great for eating biting insects.
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4 months comes from the sort of people who wear a "parka" in 23 degree weather, rather than shorts and tshirt in 12 degree weather. Winter tires and snow boots is a huge exaggeration for Toronto although it does apply when you drive a short while out of the city & suburbs where the urban development traps heat. Similarly, step outside the city and everything is bug-infested. It's all the freestanding freshwater in Ontario. Cascadia is oddly low-insect even in wilderness areas.
Toronto tends to have s
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> you don't need winter tires, a parka, and snow boots for 4+ months of the year,
You don't need that in Toronto any more either. Not for the last decade.
> with a zillion bugs
There are no bugs in Toronto. I'm serious, it's one of the first things I noticed when I moved in. That and how my asthma basically disappeared, which I guess is due to pollen.
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> Toronto is tech central for Canada BUT...housing prices have been so crazy it's reflecting San Francisco.
Vancouver laughs and pats your cute little head over the housing prices...
Just did a search on realtor.ca for detached homes in Toronto within a 7 km radius of downtown and there are 171 detached properties under $750,000. A similar search in Vancouver shows 3... one of which is a houseboat in Coal Harbour with no land, and the other two are on infamous Musqueam land that you lease from the band f
B.C. = British California (Score:2)
That would be Vancouver BC (yearly average temperature of 50.7 deg F vs 57.3 deg F for SF) but without the drought (so really more like Seattle/Portland climate-wise). Although programmers spend all their time indoors anyways so I'm not sure why climate matters.
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Your ass is well insulated, creimer, don't worry about freezing it off.
No, it's not. I have a bicyclist's ass. All bone, no padding.
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I know it's the typical internet thing to go for whatever term is the absolute worst, but seriously, calling anyone who's even slightly left of center a Marxist means that by the time an actual f*cking Marxist comes along, you've got nothing better to throw at them. The left is guilty of it too - call everyone to the right of you a fascist, and by the time some actual fascists come along, nobody pays as much attention becaus
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The problem is that at this point, you can't go around calling yourself a Feminist without taking on the mantle of Marxist at the same time. Despite however Feminism may have began, now, in the current year, it's entirely immersed in Marxist thinking.
Whether you think Marxist thought is bad in and of itself it a whole other question. But Trudeau boldly and proudly proclaimed his Feminism, which by extension makes him a Marxist. Scratch any Feminist and you'll find the commie underneath.
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Poor countries are poor precisely because they fail to use the talents of skilled people. There is no incentive to be productive and innovative when your earnings will be taken away by a corrupt kleptocratic government.
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Canadian citizens will lose as the H-1Bs take all the jobs.
This is the lump of labor fallacy [wikipedia.org]. There is not a fixed number of jobs in an economy, and immigration tends to create more jobs than are taken.
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except the value of labour itself goes down in the process.
I can't speak for everyone, but I have no problems with immigrants coming to Canada to work, but they should be paid just as well as Canadians would expect to be paid for the same job. So if the average Torontonian expects $100k/year but some person from India comes in and is happy with $50k/year, then we have a problem.
Re:Gain for the upper elite, sure (Score:5, Insightful)
"immigration tends to create more jobs than are taken."
Yes, but that doesn't benefit the residents of the country receiving immigrants.
There are more jobs because immigrants suppress wages. It's supply and demand. If you have people who are willing to supply their labor at a lower price, demand for labor increases. But the rest of us laborers are stuck on the same supply curve as the immigrants.
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Why? 70k a month ain't that bad. Or is that before tax?
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For a senior position near Silicon Valley (admittedly Sacramento is a bit cheaper, but still), they should be looking at around $150-200k. $70k is way out.
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You could at least read what I write before answering. The joke isn't that hard to notice.
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Oh wait, the tax bit was meant to be a joke? o.O
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Uuuuh, that is about HALF the salary for that area. You know who gets the other half? The outsourcing company.
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> Or is that before tax?
Major taxes in Canada are *slightly* lower than the US overall. The tax brackets are actually lower, but kick in at lower numbers. Offsetting this is that there are many fewer write-offs, most notably home mortgages.
We also pay for health care through our taxes, so that's on top. However, as has been pointed out endlessly on both sides of the border, we pay less on average. We do not get a drug plan, however, although many companies offer that as a perk and government versions are
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McDonalds serves Egg McMuffins in Canada.
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mcdonalds has 24 hour egg mcmuffins.
Ever have an Egg McMuffin and hashbrowns at 3:30am after a night out? It's almost as good as a poutine!
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We have Tim Matins from Tim Hortons, so we dont get breakfast at the clown house. Canada 1 Usa 0.
I hate to break it to you, but now Tim Hortons = Burger King and BK has that silly king clown mascot...
But thanks for taking BK off of our hands ;^)
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Well, Tim Horton finished his career in hockey playing for the Buffalo Sabres, maybe that has something to do with it.
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What will you French (gutter Latin) speaking freaks do next?
Gutter Latin is such a perfect description. Mes côtés ont quitté l'orbite.
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> American Bacon
It's not american, its irish. Streaky Rashers. At least get THAT right!
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Go live in Vancouver, then. They don't have winter there.
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Don't you ever take a job in Iceland. Or anywhere in Europe north of Italy for that matter.
But on the up side, you got sunlight from 4am to 10pm in the Summer, too.
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Iceland is actually not particular cold in winter.
Germany, France etc. has no winters more since decades.
If I would live in France I would spent my somers in Brittany and my winters in Provence.
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H1-B is not a good visa for competing with tech talent. Now, I have certainly worked with some very bright people, even PhDs, who are here on H1-Bs. But, I've also worked with slightly shrewder PhDs who have negotiated to get O-1 visas (not that difficult if you have a PhD in an in demand field). It seems to me that the problem isn't the immigrants, it's the visa. Change the visa, kick out the outsourcing mills and indentured servants, keep the high-tech talent and give them a green card. That's a solution that puts America first.
H1B is only a problem if you are from India or China. From other countries, it's a very short step to a Green Card, but because of the 7% per-country limit on Green cards, coming from India or China is generally a problem.
For example, the green card queue for India is so backlogged that they are only allowing EB-2 applications from July 22, 2008 now (China isn't much better at March 22, 2013). Every other country is "current" meaning that you can immediately apply for a EB-2 green card after receiving you