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Why is Comcast Using Self-driving Cars To Justify Abolishing Net Neutrality? (theverge.com) 225

Earlier this week, Comcast filed its comments in favor of the FCC's plan to eliminate the 2015 net neutrality rules. While much of the document was devoted to arguments we've heard before -- Comcast believes the current rules are anti-competitive and hurt investment, but generally supports the principles of net neutrality -- one statement stood out. The Verge adds: Buried in the 161-page document was this quirky assertion (emphasis ours): "At the same time, the Commission also should bear in mind that a more flexible approach to prioritization may be warranted and may be beneficial to the public... And paid prioritization may have other compelling applications in telemedicine. Likewise, for autonomous vehicles that may require instantaneous data transmission, black letter prohibitions on paid prioritization may actually stifle innovation instead of encouraging it. In other words, Comcast is arguing for paid prioritization and internet fast lanes to enable self-driving cars to communicate better with other vehicles and their surrounding environment, thus making them a safer and more efficient mode of transportation. The only problem is that autonomous and connected cars don't use wireless broadband to communicate. When cars talk with each other, they do it by exchanging data wirelessly over an unlicensed spectrum called the Dedicated Short Range Communications (DSRC) band, using technology similar to Wi-Fi. The FCC has set aside spectrum in the 5.9GHz band specifically for this purpose, and it is only meant to be used for vehicle-to-everything (V2X) applications. That includes vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-pedestrian (V2P) -- so cars talking to other cars, to traffic signals, to the phone in your pocket... you name it. Soon enough, all cars sold in the US will be required to include V2V technology for safety purposes, if the Department of Transportationâ(TM)s new rule goes into effect.
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Why is Comcast Using Self-driving Cars To Justify Abolishing Net Neutrality?

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  • by Dutchmaan ( 442553 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:22PM (#54841341) Homepage
    I'm guessing they will advertise these cars as running in the internet fast lane...
    • My understanding is that the internet has always had a provision for marking Quality of Service (QOS) on packets. But I've never understood how that is supposed to work. And to what extent is this different from the whole anti-neutral fast lane.

      My past thinking is that the difference is precisely this: Neutrality means content neutrality. If streaming movies need a higher QOS not to stutter then they could be placed in a lower latency channel without violating net neutrality, provided every movie conten

      • The way QoS is supposed to work is that the endpoints (e.g. you and/or the website you are trying to visit) set the QoS values in the packet header and the infrastructure in between is supposed to honor that. Nobody would complain about that if it's what was happening, but it's not.
        • Problem is that's a system which relies on trust. Ie: in actual practice every one would set inappropriate priorities, and the system would be much the same as it is now ( all traffic "equal" ).

          The problem with net neutrality is that there is a legitimate argument to be made against it. Network Admins prioritize traffic on their networks, after all, in order to deliver better service. It's not unreasonable for internet carriers to have the same goals. Where it goes off the rails is that every single per

          • The problem with net neutrality is that there is a legitimate argument to be made against it.

            Perhaps there is, but I honestly have yet to hear such an argument.

          • Problem is that's a system which relies on trust.

            That's not a problem if your QoS settings are evaluated against only your traffic. In other words, if you mark all of your packets high-priority, none of them really will be because they're all in the same priority queue. If implemented properly, the only one you can screw is yourself.

            You buy bandwidth from your ISP, your bandwidth, in aggregate, is equal to everyone else's. You open a connection to Slashdot and begin sending and receiving packets with "normal priority" QoS headers; you then open a connec

            • QoS has only limited usefulness if it's stripped at the ISP's edge, and that's the problem.

              In an ideal world, I think we'd all love to have QoS control over our traffic from it's origin to termination ( my phone server to digium's SIP gateway, for instance ). However, the problem is as I mentioned; while I might follow the rules, I'd be in the minority. The ISPs are the only ones in the right position to affect and implement appropriate QoS.

              Which of course they wouldn't. No one believes that. Which is w

              • Ok, so, what you're saying is that we're on the same page and you completely missed the point of my initial comment when you replied to it.
                • I think you're missing my point.

                  Allowing end points to set their own QoS is just as bad as letting the ISPs do it. We need an intermediate authority which sets the QoS for end users but who doesn't stand any chance for profit from prioritizing one data stream provider over another.

                  • No, I got your point; you still seem to be missing mine, though.

                    If your traffic is only measured against your other traffic, your QoS headers have no effect on anyone else's traffic. Follow?

                    It's a simple implementation, actually; your ISP already splits its aggregate bandwidth into rate-limited streams (or buckets, if you prefer) based on the speed you pay for. They can just as easily apply QoS rules defined for each stream on an individual basis.

                    Hell, my consumer-grade router can do that. I can assign vnets a fixed amount of bandwidth and each vnet can have its own QoS rules; one vnet having rules that set every packet to high priority doesn't affect the other vnets (of course, it also doesn't benefit that vnet, either).

                    In other words, your QoS rules decide which of your packets get dropped or delayed if one or more of your packets need to be dropped or delayed; they don't, in this hypothetical (and easy to implement) scenario, determine whether your packets or someone else's get dropped or delayed. That latter determination would need to be made by the ISP's own traffic management system and a fair way to determine that is to determine what percentage of the aggregate bandwidth belongs to each user (e.g. we've sold 100Tb/sec and you pat for 100Mb/sec, you "own" 0.0001% of available bandwidth) and ensure that each user gets that percentage of whatever aggregate bandwidth is actually available during times of congestion.

                    Then, you can set all of your QoS rules to high priority all day long and your rules don't affect me in the slightest.

                    To put it another way, call me when you've implemented this and know what you're actually talking about. I have and I do or I wouldn't be repeating it.
                    • I understand that. My point being; there is little difference between shaping to the edge of your network or to the next hop; the edge of the ISP's network ( bufferbloat aside ). We could realize real gains by accurate and appropriate QoS flowing from end point on a client's network all the way to the server on the remote network, without dropping ( too many ) packets, and certainly nothing noticeable. At the very least, it would allow ISPs to more fully utilize their infrastructure which, in my dreamlan

                    • Ok, so we're still semi on the same page, and you've given me a slightly different perspective which may well lead to a theoretical solution (which will never be implemented, even if it could work, because money). I have an appointment to get to, so I don't have time to put the concept into words right now; I'll reply to your post again when I find the time.

                      Who knows, maybe my idea will be workable and maybe, by en even smaller margin, it might get implemented.
          • Where it goes off the rails is that every single person involved knows that the carriers can't be trusted to appropriately prioritize traffic

            In short, network engineers can be trusted with QoS flags because they care about optimizing the network, where suits cannot because they care about optimizing profits.
      • by JohnFen ( 1641097 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @03:06PM (#54841683)

        QoS is about prioritizing certain types of traffic independent of who is sending or receiving it.

        Net neutrality is about prioritizing traffic based on who is sending or receiving it.

        • by skids ( 119237 )

          QoS is about prioritizing certain types of traffic independent of who is sending or receiving it.

          No, "QoS" is about prioritizing traffic. Period. Doesn't matter whether you applied the tags based on the type of service, or on the identity of the sender or the receiver, or for any other reason you felt like it.

          If TFA is going to try to pick at Comcast's logic here, they might want to try to be logical about it. Comcast did not say the "instantaneuos data transmission" required was for V2V. Said author put those words in Comcast's mouth. There are plenty of other scenarios in which a vehicle may req

          • No, "QoS" is about prioritizing traffic. Period. Doesn't matter whether you applied the tags based on the type of service, or on the identity of the sender or the receiver, or for any other reason you felt like it.

            That's the point of net neutrality -- it's an attempt to keep ISPs from abusing QoS controls. Net neutrality does not prevent legitimate uses of QoS controls.

            • by skids ( 119237 )

              That's the point of net neutrality

              I keep hearing that, but never seeing an actual policy document that says how. Other than vague plans completely cripple the use of QoS.

      • My understanding is that the internet has always had a provision for marking Quality of Service (QOS) on packets.

        AFAIK, no one obeys QOS. Anywhere. I'd be surprised if anything is actually looking at QOS field, much acting upon it.

      • If streaming movies need a higher QOS not to stutter then they could be placed in a lower latency channel

        The only kind of streaming movie that needs low-latency is two-way live video conferencing. Everything else can pre-buffer on a high-latency connection just fine.

  • Remember Verizon? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Trailer Trash ( 60756 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:24PM (#54841355) Homepage

    Last time we had this discussion Verizon claimed we needed to have "fast lanes" to help handicapped people on the internet. None of this has anything to do with reality, just trying to muddy the waters.

  • by cybersquid ( 24605 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:27PM (#54841377) Homepage
    What else can they do when their position has no rational defense?
    • I can think of a really good excuse.

      US GOVERNMENT TO INTRODUCE NEW LAWS REQUIRING GUN-TO-GUN COMUNICATION
      A SPECIAL COMMITTEE HAS RECOMMENDED THAT ALL GUNS SOLD IN THE USA AFTER AUGUST 2017 WILL HENCEFORTH REQUIRE A GUN-TO-GUN COMMUNICATION SYSTEM THAT WILL ONLY ALLOW THEM TO SHOOT TARGETS SIMILARLY ARMED.

      This will have the full support of all red blooded Americans, and require a special "fast lane" for communication.

      There. Job done!

      (And as a bonus, this might stop your police shooting harmless - indeed, hel

  • by sbaker ( 47485 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:33PM (#54841437) Homepage

    Clearly they are writing for an audience that doesn't understand any of the issue behind Net Neutrality - and they are throwing anything at the problem that might sound like a "job killer" that might 'stick'.

    If they say that autonomous cars need a non-neutral net - then that will be believed by the lawmakers - who are told continually about the US lead in this technology and how it's very popular with the general public...and lawmakers up and down the country are rushing out laws to allow them to be driven in various states. They wouldn't want to throw a valuable/popular idea like that out the window because of Net Neutrality - so this makes a great throw-away line for Comcast - even though it's a blatant falsehood. That falsehood will never become obvious to lawmakers until it's far too late.

    Comcast are now "officially evil" - but since I think they were already on my "officially evil" list, I guess not much changed.

  • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:34PM (#54841445)

    Years ago when ESPN goal line was new and directv did not have it made a big deal about it but kind of lied a about one big thing the ad's where in HD but the channel was not and is still not in HD on comcast.

    Comcast has marking that says unlike satellite we don't have contracts (but they do for some deals)

  • Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by l0n3s0m3phr34k ( 2613107 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:36PM (#54841467)
    It's not like Comcast is well known for their truthfulness and transparency. To them, the best way to destroy NN is pile on "alternative truths" via PR like this. They know it's a sound idea on the technical side, so using a false pseduo-technical argument against it is the best way to confuse "the masses". We all know they started with some boiler-room with "destroy NN" on the whiteboard, and the marketing drones have a long list of potential knock-downs, focus groups, test campaigns, etc. Comcast knows full well that NN has nothing to do with V2V, but are just throwing everything to the anti-NN wall to see what sticks.

    We all know that, especially with the current administration, "public comments" really have little affect. The real "voice" is the lobby money behind the scenes. This is just a "reason" for the FCC to overturn, so they won't seem to be too corrupt to "the public".
  • Not this again. They're trying to say that Net Neutrality interferes with traffic shaping, which it doesn't. Net Neutrality prevents discrimination against *from whom* a certain type of data transfer is provided, not discrimination of the data type itself. We need an XDCD comic to clear this up.
    • by skids ( 119237 )

      1) Not all services that need prioritization are going to have their own protocol.
      2) Any discrimination against service types can be abused to affect the subset of people using that service type. That will stifle innovation by making everyone trying something new try to make their traffic look like everything else.
      3) ...or run it in a completely opaque encrypted tunnel. In which case, there is no service information by which to prioritize, and if there is a legitimate public interest in prioritizing it, t

  • by grep -v '.*' * ( 780312 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:46PM (#54841537)
    Why is Comcast Using Self-driving Cars To Justify Abolishing Net Neutrality?

    Because they CAN. Besides, it's a car analogy, and everyone understands car analogies. Only nerds use those weird computery things, unlike phones.
  • All of our lawmakers are ignorant shit for brain's who dont know the difference tween their ass and a hole in the ground, make any argument you like as long as you are convincing, and have a fuckton of money, its good enough!

  • To the best of my understanding, packet prioritization is only an issue when a router is congested... if the devices are talking directly to eachother becuase they are on the same subnet (which vehicles should be, if they are communicating directly to eachother), then as long as you use dedicated wireless access points that are strictly for inter-vehicle communication, you won't need to worry about prioritizing your data before anyone else's. These access points can communicate directly with known nearby
  • Bad Quotation (Score:4, Informative)

    by Baby Duck ( 176251 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:58PM (#54841625) Homepage
    You started off Comcast's quote with an opening double quote, but you never closed it. So it looks like the rest of the summary is the quote when it's clearly not.
  • Because Comcast is a scummy company filled with lying liars who will say or do anything that they think will make them more money.

  • What sort of idiot do you have to be to believe such nonsense as this? So-called 'self driving cars' have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with 'net neutrality' or anything Comcast has anything to do with!
  • I've seen this kind of horseshit come up lots of times; in Brocade too long ago. In large corporations,
    top management is either drinking the Kool-Aid, Or maybe intentionally coming up with ridiculous bogus assertions that
    anyone familiar with technology and a few brain cells could clearly recognize as bogus.

    Network neutrality and self-driving cars have nothing to do with each other.
    Also, network neutrality is not about "No paid prioritization"; it's about no paid prioritization of different product

  • Is traffic prioritization (i.e.: giving some uses of the network greater priority than others) against net neutrality?

    Technically yes.

    So would you want your car's telemetry screwed by the guy in the next car's bittorrenting?

    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      I'd want my car's autopilot to be completely autonomous.

  • ... it will be fluffy bunnies. Or cute puppies. Any feel-good bullshit that our brain-dead politicians will swallow.

  • > Why is Comcast Using Self-driving Cars To Justify Abolishing Net Neutrality?

    Because using self driving cars is more humane than the way they would prefer to kill net neutrality.
  • Because they are full of shit, as always.

  • This isn't that unexpected when they're paying the legal team to creates as many pages of documents as possible arguing their side (pro paid prioritization of traffic).

    I mean, this is all about theoretical implementations. MAYBE there would be a reason for cars to do some communications over wireless Internet services alongside of the allocated frequencies dedicated for the task? 99.9% sure not, but it COULD happen.

    I think you can create fictional scenarios all day long where someone COULD find it useful to

  • Why is Comcast Using Self-driving Cars To Justify Abolishing Net Neutrality?

    Because they think it'll work.

    Does there need to be another reason?

  • Likewise, for autonomous vehicles that may require instantaneous data transmission,

    Okay, if their cars can violate the laws of physics, I think they might deserve special treatment.

  • I thought net neutrality was about treating all traffic of the same type the same.
  • Autonomous cars comunicate amogst themselves via unlicensed spectrum, yes, but they comunicate with the backend cloud where many important services are provided via the usual internet.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. TCP/IP(v4&v6) have all the provisions for Diferentiated trafic and QoS. Many a career has been built developing such mechanisims.

    the problem is not wether some trafic has to be prioritized. If autonomous vehicle trafic needs more priority than VoD, which in turn needs more Priorit

  • by viperidaenz ( 2515578 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @05:17PM (#54842505)

    I'm not going to buy a car that requires a low latency internet connection to function correctly.
    That's just fucking stupid.

  • Any politician who agrees with this should have a pacemaker implanted that depends on instantaneous communication with a remote server through a Comcast connection.

  • Even when they need a 200'ish page ball of mud to veil it from genpop, and an under the table paycheck to whoever is in charge.

    Even internet trolls are better than telecom operators these days, ethically and moral-wise. What has the world come to. At least in the last century, all a company needed to make a buck was some dodgy catchy marketing, and a stupid enough target consumer group. Now they will attack core rights indiscriminately for that investor relations briefing. Innovation and capitalism cannot b

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