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Bitcoin Businesses The Almighty Buck

Wolf of Wall Street: Cryptocurrency ICOs Are 'the Biggest Scam Ever' (betanews.com) 279

Posted by msmash from the different-perspectives dept.
An anonymous reader shares an article: Jordan Belfort -- the real-life Wolf of Wall Street -- has warned that ICOs (or "token sales" or "coin sales") are "the biggest scam ever" and will "blow up in so many people's faces." The former stockbroker, who spent nearly two years in prison for fraud and financial scams, says that the Initial Coin Offerings used to raise money for cryptocurrencies are "far worse than anything I was ever doing." His fears seem to stem from the way ICOs differ from the more traditional IPO. With IPOs investors gain shares in whatever company they plough money into, and profits can be easily shared. With ICOs, however, there is no mechanism in place for distributing any profits that may be made, profits are reliant on the value of a given cryptocurrency increasing and, perhaps more worrying, ICOs are not regulated in the way IPOs are. Aside from the fact that some ICOs are out-and-out scams, many people believe that the cryptocurrency bubble is just that -- a currently growing bubble that will eventually pop, leading many people to lose out.
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Wolf of Wall Street: Cryptocurrency ICOs Are 'the Biggest Scam Ever' More

Wolf of Wall Street: Cryptocurrency ICOs Are 'the Biggest Scam Ever'

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  • Pump and Dump (Score:4, Insightful)

    by whitelabrat ( 469237 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:06PM (#55419131)

    Seems like there are a very few worth currencies and the rest are Me-Too currencies that are only out there for pump and dump.

    Really the only worthwhile currencies are those that you can use with a legit bank or a retail store. Anything else, buyer beware.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by sg_oneill ( 159032 )

      Pump and dump is all it can be. A currencies maximum cash out cant be any more than whats been put into the system to start with. So somebody somewhere is just going make the right choices and walk out at the right time, and blam, theres no US dollars supporting the digibucks and everyones investment just evaporated.

      This includes Bitcoin too, by the way, however the relative size of the pool and how distributed it is means its probably fairly safe from that, for now.

      When people point out that "fiat" curren

      • Re:Pump and Dump (Score:5, Informative)

        by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @04:05PM (#55419547) Journal

        When people point out that "fiat" currencies are only backed up by government promises, they forget to note that cryptocurrencies are only backed up by "fiat" currency

        This is not right and shows you never took an economics class. I'll try to explain it for you briefly, but you should know it is nuanced and complex.

        No currency has innate value, including gold. If "innate value" determined the price of an object, then people would be paying a lot for air, because it's as valuable as life itself.

        The value of a currency is determined by what people are willing to pay for it (again, just like anything). If no one is willing to pay more than $10 for an ounce of gold (for example, if the world collectively realized wedding rings are stupid), then that's its price. If people are willing to give you $5000 for a single bitcoin, then that's its price. In other words, Bitcoin is backed by what people are willing to give for it, not by fiat currency. You can exchange Bitcoin for pizza or for hotel bookings.

        The price of bitcoin isn't based on "how much 'real' money people have put into it." Bitcoin (and stocks) are not a bank account. The price is determined by what people are willing to pay. Assume for a moment that the bitcoin bubble crashes: in that case, its price could drop to $0 without a single person withdrawing money from it. No one will be willing to buy them. Likewise, the price can jump dramatically in the same manner.

        • Gold does have innate value. It is a rare metal with many desirable qualities. An excellent conductor, does not oxidize. Satellites use a bunch of it. That computer your using to put in the above comment uses a trivial amount of it. Certain other electronics use it. We could also be talking about platinum or palladium or any number of other rare metals. Even the copper penny ain't so much copper any more because the value of the penny melted down (assuming pure copper) is worth more than than a penny. Silve

          • Gold does have innate value. It is a rare metal with many desirable qualities.

            No, you are wrong. It is your desire that gives it value. You desire those qualities and are willing to pay for them. If no one is willing to pay for them, then it has no value (not many years ago, no one was willing to pay for the conducting properties of gold. If a better, cheaper conductor gets invented, again no one will care).

            Again, you have not taken an economics class, it shows, and by posting you have become a personification of this comic [xkcd.com].

          • Re:Sorry you are just wrong (Score:4, Informative)

            by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @06:21PM (#55420397) Journal

            Gold does have innate value. It is a rare metal with many desirable qualities.

            But society has a surplus of gold. Industrial uses are a fraction of the total supply. Most gold is either used for jewellery or locked up as an investment.
            https://static.seekingalpha.co... [seekingalpha.com]

        • they mean value besides the currency. Gold has 'innate' value because gold is in and of itself valuable. Yes, that's probably not the strict definition of 'innate' but it's understood to be what people mean.

          Air isn't valuable in that fashion not because it lacks value because it's too common. If gold were as common as dirt it would lose much of it's innate value.

          The value of a currency is determined not by what people pay for it per se but what you can buy with it. The 'Big Mac Index' comes to mind

          • they mean value besides the currency.

            I mean they should take an economics class or buy an economics book before talking out of their ass. Nothing has innate value until someone wants it.

            • of the economy by talking your way through it; even without the backing of a course in economics. Those sorts of discussions are the bedrock of a democracy. To your point, it would be nice if folks were better educated. But it's tough to get people (read: voters) willing to pay for it. We've been cutting education for 30 years straight. There are consequences for that.

          • Gold has 'innate' value because gold is in and of itself valuable.

            Yes, and no. There's the value we think it should have, based on all the fairy tales we've heard as kids, and then there's what someone's willing to pay for it right now. If you've got a use for that gold, such as you want to impress your honey or your boss, then you might pay up for it. If you're starving on a desert island, you'd probably much rather have something to eat.

            Example: you're walking home at night and a shifty-looking guy approaches you and offers you a pure gold chain for a "fair price". Y

            • because it's attractive without staining your skin when you wear it. The attractiveness of it helps you attract valuable mates and contacts to network with. Being attractive is a valuable resource. If you can't do it with natural good looks you do it with cloths and jewelry.

              I'm going to go off on a tangent here, so feel free to stop reading. Gold won't be worthless unless we devolve to the point where we can't support a ruling elite who trades in beauty and influence. And that scenario is more a fantasy

        • Bitcoin is backed by what people are willing to give for it, not by fiat currency. You can exchange Bitcoin for pizza or for hotel bookings.

          Seems all reasonable and logical. Yet bitcoins utility as a currency of exchange of goods and services and severely limited. I'd sooner pay for a pizza with a 5kg rock I have to wheelbarrow around than a bitcoin transaction if the pizza man offered either currency of exchange (rocks vs bitcoins). block generation taking 10 mins, generally having to wait for a couple of blocks to be confident your block isn't going to be discarded due to a fork (the pizza mans problem), and no guarantee your txn will be acc

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by PCM2 ( 4486 )

          If people are willing to give you $5000 for a single bitcoin, then that's its price.

          But who is? We're told that's its price. But if I have 1,000 Bitcoins and the price for each is $5,000, can I reasonably expect to yawn, scratch my belly, and have $5 million in my bank account this weekend? I doubt it. But hey, why should I worry? My Bitcoins will each be worth $5,100 tomorrow.

          • Well, over 130,000 bitcoins were traded yesterday. So, yes, it's near certain that you could get rid of 1,000 in a day without significantly blipping the price. You'd probably want to do it in lots of 100 or so on the biggest exchange if you're paranoid just to be sure.

            But, really, who cares? You just buy in with a portion of your portfolio that you're willing to lose, wait till it doubles or triples, take out your principal plus perhaps the profit you might have made with the same investment in the market,

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Khyber ( 864651 )

          "No currency has innate value, including gold. If "innate value" determined the price of an object, then people would be paying a lot for air, because it's as valuable as life itself."

          Uhh, who never took an economics class, here? Oxygen bars do in fact fucking exist, and the prices are indeed quite exorbitant. Perhaps you should leave the basement and spend more time in the real world, instead of your internet economic fantasies. You failed to learn the basics of supply and demand, and you also failed one o

          • you also failed one of the basic economic principles - do not discuss a commodity unless you know the entirety of its uses.

            That's not one of the basic principles of economics.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Khyber ( 864651 )

              It is absolutely one of the basics, because if you don't know the basics of your commodity, you're practically guaranteed to fail.

              See, economists aren't very smart. They think they can put numbers to human behavior when the opposite is the reality - it's human behavior that runs the numbers.

              The fact you trust economists who have already run the global economy into the ground a couple times in the past couple of decades shows you don't understand much about true basic economics.

        • When people point out that "fiat" currencies are only backed up by government promises, they forget to note that cryptocurrencies are only backed up by "fiat" currency

          This is not right and shows you never took an economics class. I'll try to explain it for you briefly, but you should know it is nuanced and complex.

          The simpleminded Bitcoin propaganda bullshit you respond with is no substitute for an economics class either.

        • The value of a currency is determined by what people are willing to pay for it (again, just like anything).

          Art being sold for 10s of millions of dollars.
          Non-voting, non-dividend-paying stocks.

          There are plenty of examples of items being purchased, physical or virtual, with the primary goal of trusting a greater fool [wikipedia.org] to pay yet more for it (there are tax advantages to certain losses and gains however [intuit.com]).

          Spectrum magazine has a current series on blockchain technology. [ieee.org]

        • Re:Pump and Dump (Score:5, Insightful)

          by WrongMonkey ( 1027334 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @09:35PM (#55421103)
          The one thing that your theory is missing is taxes. You can exchange Bitcoin for pizza or for hotel bookings. But you cannot pay the IRS with bitcoin. If you wish to live or do business in the United State, then when the tax bill comes due, you'd better have US dollars. In a practical sense, the value of a government backed fiat currency is based on the relevance of that country to the world economy.

      • A currencies maximum cash out cant be any more than whats been put into the system to start with.

        This is obviously false, because (in the case of Bitcoin and most other cryptocurrencies) there were no US dollars put into the system to start with. The "maximum cash out" is limited not by what has already been put in, but rather what people are willing to pay for it now—which can in principle include all other goods and services in the market, not just other currencies.

        cryptocurrencies are only backed up by "fiat" currency

        Nonsense. The value of (most) cryptocurrencies is not tied to the value of any "fiat" currency. If "fiat" currency becomes worthles

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sjames ( 1099 )

        More exactly, Fiat currencies are worth no more than what people are willingh to exchange for them. If someone will give you $4000 for a bitcoin, then a Bitcoin is worth $4000. If they will give you a gallon of gas for a bitcoin, then it's worth a gallon of gas. If nobody will give you anything for your Bitcoin, then it's worth nothing.

        The U.S. government enforces that a dollar is legal tender and places the full might of the U.S. behind it. In other words, the U.S. with it's large economic power and it's l

      • when those real dollars are gone, its fundamental to the equasion that the exchange rate would then be zero.

        Nonsense. If the value of the dollar goes to zero, the exchange rate would go to infinity.

  • Crypto currencies are not ICOs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FeelGood314 ( 2516288 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:07PM (#55419147)
    A crypto currency is a very convenient way to store and move money. Banks will charge 5% or more to convert your money from one currency to another and wire transfers are a pain and usually cost $10. Other money transfers often come with 1 or 2% fees and banks in some countries are corrupt and incompetent. Crypto currencies could replace a good portion of M2 since they work better than most traditional money. M2 world wide is equivalent to almost 30 Trillion USD. One day one crypto currency will likely approach this amount.

    ICOs are a scam. They replace shares but are inferior in almost every way except they by-pass the traditional stock markets. (I suppose some conspiracy people might think this is a good idea). ICOs also don't allow high frequency trading since trades can only take place as fast as blocks are added to the block chain and buried to a sufficient depth to be trusted.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I live in Puerto Rico. I have most of my worth stored in cryptocurrency (BTC). Now I cannot access it and even on those rare occasions I am able to like today, it does me no good - there literally is nothing I can do with it; nobody accepts it, I cannot eat it, it's worthless to me. Doing this was probably the worst decision I ever made and I urge all people to think twice about converting their hard earned money to bits and bytes because it is a large question whether it will be there for you when you n

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by JcMorin ( 930466 )
        I'm surprised you can't access your Bitcoin but you can access Slashdot.

        • Re:Crypto currencies are not ICOs (Score:4, Insightful)

          by goose-incarnated ( 1145029 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:42PM (#55419385) Journal

          I'm surprised you can't access your Bitcoin but you can access Slashdot.

          He can probably access his bitcoin just fine - he just can't find anyone who will give swap his bitcoins for food.

          • And the people who kept their money in dollars in a bank account are not doing any better. Remember, there is no power to run the ATM on, so there is no way to get your money so you can buy things.

            • Maybe maybe not. According to status.pr, 70% of banks are open. Probably running on diesel gens, as power is still at 23%. Good news is hospitals with power are up to 49, 4 more than a week ago. I know the US shipped a large amount of bills to PR because bills were about all stores could handle. Even CC's did not work. I imagine if CC's are not working, neither is bitcoin.

        • Re:Crypto currencies are not ICOs (Score:5, Insightful)

          by careysub ( 976506 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @04:04PM (#55419541)

          He can't buy what he needs with it. The local markets don't take bitcoin. It is not a liquid currently, nor is it easily convertible.

      • This. The currency may be worth something, but converting it to something you can use to buy stuff is hard. At least with the humble dollar, I can buy almost anything. Some places, if I offer to pay in BTC, I'd have a good chance of getting the local sheriff called on me.

    • Re:Crypto currencies are not ICOs (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kelemvor4 ( 1980226 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:26PM (#55419277)

      A crypto currency is a very convenient way to store and move money. Banks will charge 5% or more to convert your money from one currency to another and wire transfers are a pain and usually cost $10. Other money transfers often come with 1 or 2% fees and banks in some countries are corrupt and incompetent. Crypto currencies could replace a good portion of M2 since they work better than most traditional money. M2 world wide is equivalent to almost 30 Trillion USD. One day one crypto currency will likely approach this amount. ICOs are a scam. They replace shares but are inferior in almost every way except they by-pass the traditional stock markets. (I suppose some conspiracy people might think this is a good idea). ICOs also don't allow high frequency trading since trades can only take place as fast as blocks are added to the block chain and buried to a sufficient depth to be trusted.

      Crypto currencies are a lot of things. "Convenient" is not among those things. I've tried several times to use bitcoins but it's a total pain in the ass, so I own zero bitcoins. Bitcoin? more like shitcoin. I'm joking, but seriously - bitcoin has to be the world's least convenient way to pay for anything.

      • On the whole I agree with you.
        I accept bitcoin as payments, but I will not hold them, nor do I try to pay with them. I just cash out for either Dollars or Euro, depending on what I need at the time.

      • Crypto currencies are a lot of things. "Convenient" is not among those things. I've tried several times to use bitcoins but it's a total pain in the ass, so I own zero bitcoins. Bitcoin? more like shitcoin. I'm joking, but seriously - bitcoin has to be the world's least convenient way to pay for anything.

        Sort of true. Spending not so much, but moving, it is awesome. Try moving hundreds of thousands of dollars across borders in near real time with any other method.
        And sure for legit folks this might not be a priority, but for the trillions in currency used in black markets, avoiding government scrutiny is a primary driver.

    • Banks will charge 5% or more to convert your money from one currency to another and wire transfers are a pain and usually cost $10. Other money transfers often come with 1 or 2% fees and banks in some countries are corrupt and incompetent

      It's been a while since I've paid 5% to convert anything and there are many alternative services for transferring and converting money that don't rely on the absolute garbage that is trying to use bitcoin. Speaking of transferring, what do you think the exchanges that actually convert your money to coins run on? Good will and altruism?

      As for transfers costing money, only in some countries. I can't remember the last time I paid anything to transfer money to someone (ebay Paypal purchases excluded).

      • Canadian bank exchange rates have an 8% spread on buy and sell for USD. It gets far worse for other currencies. https://www.uexchange.ca/compa... [uexchange.ca] Also to the other commentor, credit cards don't charge to exchange money they just give you a terrible rate.

        Using Etherium or Vertcoin my transaction costs are insignificant. My broker makes its money by facilitating buy and sells within the brokers clients (and skimming a tiny bit on the buy/sell spread). Transferring money in and out of the brokerage account

      • It's been a while since I've paid 5% to convert anything and there are many alternative services for transferring and converting money that don't rely on the absolute garbage that is trying to use bitcoin.

        True for legit use cases. For the trillions of dollars in black market transactions, not so much. That is why Crypto is a thing, there is a real use case for it. And while that exists, it will have value.

  • Bubbly bubble (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Artem S. Tashkinov ( 764309 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:13PM (#55419181) Homepage
    Not all crypto currencies are created equal but common sense hints that most of them will certainly pop because obscurity will kill them: 1192 are far too many [coinmarketcap.com].

    • 1192 are far too many

      There are well less than 200 physical currencies in the world. We're going backwards.

  • and everyone's trying to get onboard. Is this surprising to anyone that these are popping up in this current form after Bitcoins are soaring in value for some fucking reason?

  • Look, if this fella had bought several Bitcoin at $117 or better, he'd be singing a different tune, the opposite of what he's talking about I guarantee.

    • Think again Potsy. FTA:

      "With ICOs, however, there is no mechanism in place for distributing any profits that may be made, profits are reliant on the value of a given cryptocurrency increasing and, perhaps more worrying, ICOs are not regulated in the way IPOs are. "

  • Correct (Score:5, Informative)

    by sexconker ( 1179573 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:31PM (#55419307)

    He's 100% correct.

    ICOs and their older siblings "premines" are a true mark of bullshit. When the Ethereum bubble pops, almost every single altcoin (i.e., all cryptocurrencies other than Bitcoin) will crash and burn overnight. In the Bitcoin world, currencies with a significant premine were universally known as scam coins. In essence, the creators of the currency decided to print themselves tons of free currency before opening the doors to the public. ICOs are a similar deal. It's like buying stock in a company that doesn't exist. Most commonly, they're an extension of Ethereum and are a mountain of nothing, pegged to nothing, and sold for real money or Ethereum (which is quickly sold for real money).

    Setting up your own ICO for some token running in Ethereum (along with a shitty site that does nothing but let you send those tokens to other idiots in the ICO) is a turnkey operation, which is why they're so prevalent.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Remember that really terrible Street Fighter The Movie? There was a scene where M. Bison promises some guy a million bucks... But it turns out to be in his brand new currency that is about to be huge when he takes over the world.

      This was back in the 90s but apparently the movie was so bad no one watched it and now they are falling for the same scam.

      • This was back in the 90s but apparently the movie was so bad no one watched it and now they are falling for the same scam.

        By falling do you mean upwards? Because while it may be a scam long term, cryptocurrency is making a lot of people rich as we speak. And for every schmuck who will lose, there'll be another you don't hear about that got out at the right time and is rich.

    • which is probably the actual point.

    • When the Ethereum bubble pops...

      Hasn't it already? It dropped 2/3rds of its value in the last 4 months. Although having said that I just noticed that it's up 10% today!

  • All Money, Little Faith (Score:3)

    by foxalopex ( 522681 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:52PM (#55419457)

    I've heard the arguments for Bitcoin and against. In theory, Bitcoin has no controls on it and is suppose to be allow you to make anonymous transactions. Which is curious because our normal physical currency was essentially like that at some point too but as society grew up it became more regulated and stable to try to help people. Then when that illusion blew up multiple times due to scams, fraud and use for mostly illegal activities, the other massive argument was there was a lot of money to be made. Usually in life if there's a lot of money to be made there's a lot to be lost as well. Money isn't magic, there needs to be some give and take. My opinion is if you want to gamble your assets on Bitcoin, go for it but realize at the same time that it could just as easily blow up in your face and when it does there's no one to provide any sense of a safety net because that's what you're going for. I won't touch it for that reason but there are many that will.

    • Re:All Money, Little Faith (Score:5, Informative)

      by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @04:31PM (#55419753)

      BTC and cryptocurrencies are relatively new, shiny, and edgy. The problem is that there are tiers of currencies:

      At the bottom tier are items that can be used and traded. Ammo is the ideal currency in this department, since it is fungible (for the most part, assuming factory stuff.)

      Once there are some laws or governance in place to minimize cheating, precious metals come to mind, as they have intrinsic value.

      From there, pieces of paper that can be redeemed for precious metals, so one doesn't have to carry currency around.

      Once you get stable governments, fiat currency becomes possible. This allows for capital to expand.

      After you get stable governments, good communication world-wide and solid storage, cryptocurrencies can be used.

      However, like Mazlow's Pyramid, if something happens, like communications or power going out, the currencies that are higher level will wind up being useless.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ejtttje ( 673126 )
        Sort of, except for the part about cryptocurrency depending on stable government. One of its selling points is that it *doesn't* depend on government. So it's more of a fork, targeting a world where you have communications and thus want to conduct long-range commerce, but don't trust/rely on banking/government support to do it.

        Considering remote tribes in Africa can get cellular these days, it's quite feasible to me that we would retain basic internet access even in times of failed governance, and being

      • > precious metals come to mind, as they have intrinsic value.

        Precious metals are no more special than ethereum is, except that it exists as more than bits of information... like rocks.. or birds, and there's a limited supply of it - apparently, which makes it different, not special.

        The only thing that has real value to human beings is food including water. So unless you start thinking about trading in cans of tuna, bread and yogurt, drop the 'oh CCs are not special like what we have now' and 'oh but CC d

        • Precious metals can be used to make lots of things, so gold and silver would remain useful in the apocalypse of your favorite fiction genre. Unlike steel, they can be worked cold relatively easily. Semiprecious gemstones would be a better example for something that has very little inherent worth.

      • if something happens, like communications or power going out, the currencies that are higher level will wind up being useless.

        Useless for the few minutes that that happens, then back to being useful minutes later. Just like everything else that uses electricity...

  • ./ has always been at the forefront of new technologies, and now crypto currencies get all the flak from the ./ crowd. Weird. And Bitcoin has been here since ... 2009, so for over 8 years already and it shows no signs of slowing down or dying.

    It's kinda sad to see ./ falling victim to almost daily assaults on Bitcoins validity and future. I guess many people here are upset that they didn't invest in Bitcoin when it was sold for pennies and they hate it. I didn't buy it when it cost that little back then b

    • What "hate" are you speaking of? Is fact "hate"?

      Do you disagree with this statement:"With IPOs investors gain shares in whatever company they plough money into, and profits can be easily shared. With ICOs, however, there is no mechanism in place for distributing any profits that may be made, profits are reliant on the value of a given cryptocurrency increasing and, perhaps more worrying, ICOs are not regulated in the way IPOs are" and if so, why?

      Do you disagree with the fact that bitcoin is a huge speculat

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by mysidia ( 191772 )

        Do you disagree with the fact that bitcoin is a huge speculative bubble? If so, why?

        I disagree Bitcoin is a speculative bubble, and invite you to show material evidence that it is one, or that about $6000 USD per BTC is not about right as a price for this asset.

        • Re:Why all the hate? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by gatfirls ( 1315141 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @05:07PM (#55419961)

          Ohh you got me there. Just because bitcoin looks and acts like every speculative bubble ever doesn't mean it is one, right?

          A good rule of thumb for what is a speculative bubble: When the value of something dramatically increases without an answer to the question, "why". (aside from the below key factors in a speculative bubble):

          Displacement: A displacement occurs when investors get enamored by a new paradigm, such as an innovative new technology or interest rates that are historically low.

          Boom: Prices rise slowly at first, following a displacement, but then gain momentum as more and more participants enter the market, setting the stage for the boom phase. During this phase, the asset in question attracts widespread media coverage. Fear of missing out on what could be an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity spurs more speculation, drawing an increasing number of participants into the fold.

          Euphoria: During this phase,caution is thrown to the wind, as asset prices skyrocket. The "greater fool" theory plays out everywhere.
          Valuations reach extreme levels during this phase.

          During the euphoric phase, new valuation measures and metrics are touted to justify the relentless rise in asset prices.

          Profit Taking: By this time, the smart money – heeding the warning signs – is generally selling out positions and taking profits. But estimating the exact time when a bubble is due to collapse can be a difficult exercise and extremely hazardous to one's financial health, because, as John Maynard Keynes put it, "the markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

          Panic: In the panic stage, asset prices reverse course and descend as rapidly as they had ascended. Investors and speculators, faced with margin calls and plunging values of their holdings, now want to liquidate them at any price. As supply overwhelms demand, asset prices slide sharply.

          I'm not hating on bitcoin and actually think it will open up some new avenues to challenge the credit card companies to be more competitive but the irrational exuberance sucks people in and it hurts them, especially when highly speculative vehicles like ICOs are looking to cash in on it.

    • ./ has always been at the forefront of new technologies, and now crypto currencies get all the flak from the ./ crowd. Weird.

      Disruptive technology is disruptive. Those on the losing side are the ones the moan the loudest...

  • A friend was recently sucked in by one (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @04:13PM (#55419605) Homepage Journal

    I got a message on social media from a long time friend. We've been friends since elementary school. He's an educated man but somehow, someone got their hooks into him with regards to some new crypto coin offering. He was trying to convince me to go all in on it with him. I'm sure that he believes in this. I hope I'm wrong about it but the whole deal doesn't smell right.

    The website he directed me to visit for more information consisted of a hosted blog page that was exceptionally light on details of the crypto, the infrastructure and the people behind it.

    Crypto coins seem to be becoming the MLM of the next decade.

    LK

    • That reeks of scam, either intentional or by sheer fact of delusion on the part of the people doing the offering.

  • Usually the MORE the number prominent and influential people you see calling something a bubble; the less-likely it is to be a bubble, or the more likely it is to be limited in size or impact. All the major bubbles that wound up exploding and being serious calamities were NOT widely being called bubbles until after the pop, at least not by popular figures --- For example, the housing bubble and calamotous crash that nobody really predicted, although many people later made non-credible claims of havin

    • What do you mean popular figures? Like Taylor Swift or those in the know who work in the industry?

      Because if you are speaking about the latter....Plenty of people were calling the housing bubble a bubble, and the dot com bubble a bubble. It's no mystery that the popular narrative disregards that because quite simply people don't want to hear it. I can remember people on CNBC literally being laughed over as they spoke because they were predicting the housing crash, quite accurately actually. "Hey people

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by mysidia ( 191772 )

        ....Plenty of people were calling the housing bubble a bubble

        The people who manage to "find speculative bubbles everywhere" don't really count; for every
        "housing bubble" they successfully saw, there were 1000 things they saw overpriced or bubbles that never saw any kind of crash.

        What you don't see when there's a real bubble is multiple figures recognized by the industry as public calling it out clearly as a bubble and taking the risk to make a concrete prediction about what approximate percentage of

  • What's truly sick is that this shithead continues to profit off of the misery that he caused an untold number of poor and working class folks hoping to make better lives for themselves. The fine that he has to pay is merely peanuts when compared with the sums of money he stole.

  • Some of the ICO offering are a bubble. Which ones? What proportion? All???? Are you sure?

    Nobody should invest anything in an ICO that they can't afford to lose. Everyone should realize it's a gamble with no insurance. This doesn't mean it's a bad bet, you need to estimate the probabilities and your risk tolerance. And realize that it's an estimate.

    P.S.: This comment about estimating risk definitely applies to bitcoins. I consider them riskier than a stock index fund, but I couldn't quantify how muc

  • Crypto-currencies are basically pyramid schemes (Score:3)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Monday October 23, 2017 @08:03PM (#55420845)

    Sure, they can work if they stay reasonably stable, because there actually is real work necessary to produce more "coins" and they can be used for other purposes than speculation. But as soon as the value fluctuates wildly (as Bitcoin does at the moment), they become unusable for anything except speculation and then they turn into a game of chicken and will eventually crash, just like a pyramid-scheme does.

    The main reason to back a currency (or stocks) with something solid is to prevent wild fluctuations and to make it something that can be used to store value and to exchange in trade.

  • Of course they'll trash it. Cryptocurrency totally undermines the giant legalized scam they've been perpetrating for like 120 years.

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