Justices Ponder Need For Warrant For Cellphone Tower Data (apnews.com) 200
An anonymous reader shares a report: Like almost everyone else in America, thieves tend to carry their cellphones with them to work. When they use their phones on the job, police find it easier to do their jobs. They can get cellphone tower records that help place suspects in the vicinity of crimes, and they do so thousands of times a year. Activists across the political spectrum, media organizations and technology experts are among those arguing that it is altogether too easy for authorities to learn revealing details of Americans' lives merely by examining records kept by Verizon, T-Mobile and other cellphone service companies. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court hears its latest case about privacy in the digital age. At issue is whether police generally need a warrant to review the records. Justices on the left and right have recognized that technology has altered privacy concerns. The court will hear arguments in an appeal by federal prison inmate Timothy Carpenter. He is serving a 116-year sentence after a jury convicted him of armed robberies in the Detroit area and northwestern Ohio.
How did they already have the data? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Unacceptable. This is not public information; even voluntary release of your information by the tower operator should be considered a search of your private dealings. We have wire tapping laws because you can just ask the telco to tap a persons line--voluntary release of data by the telco--and that serves as a stand-in for illegally entering your house without a warrant and placing listening devices (search).
Obtaining non-public information from a third party is akin to wire tapping. It's not the sam
Re: (Score:3)
It is not public information, but it is also not yours, or my information that we own. It is like getting the video from the liquor store cameras to ID the bastard that just robbed it.
It is exactly the same thing, information about your whereabouts from a third party. No warrant needed.
And if you think that only the Cell companies are tracking your every move, you're very mistaken. Every large box store, every website, every app, everything you do is being tracked right now. Short of being a luddite cave dw
Re:How did they already have the data? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is not public information, but it is also not yours, or my information that we own. It is like getting the video from the liquor store cameras to ID the bastard that just robbed it.
In which case you know there was a robbery and you have reason to believe the video contains the details of the crime.
That's a bit different than walking in and saying, hey, give me all the video on this guy. No reason, just I want it. It's also a bit different from the liquor store reporting a crime and surrendering video related to the details of that crime: they're not under law enforcement order to surrender that information, and are attaching it as relevant to a crime which has been committed against them.
Further, places with CCTV announce they have CCTV. This is to avoid laws forbidding them from recording you without consent of all involved parties.
By contrast, your cell phone provider may or may not be storing data about you long-term, but is presumably recording information for a time—long enough to keep track of where you are at the moment, so the towers function, at a minimum. If you commit a crime against their network, they have every right to bundle relevant data up and submit it with their complaint to the police or courts. Typically, the police initiate the contact, and request they surrender data about you.
There's no reason the government should be allowed to arbitrarily poke into non-public information about you. If they don't have and cannot obtain a warrant, they shouldn't be allowed to thumb through private data at their leisure to build a case about your contact patterns so as to open up an investigation against you. No, they shouldn't be allowed to just request CCTV data, either--your shop can volunteer the relevant recordings when reporting a crime, and they can ask you for the relevant recordings if the next guy over got robbed and they believe you captured something of that, as they'll have a warrant for obtaining that data.
Re: (Score:2)
1) As a libertarian, I would prefer a vastly more limited government that fought real crimes like theft, and assault and less on non-crimes like drugs and alcohol.
2) As a libertarian, I would prefer the corporate guardians of information said "Can I have a warrant please" and not willingly give up information just because it is the police. In fact, I would prefer if EVERYONE said that to a cop when they ask questions.
3) The world isn't libertarian, but is tending more towards the fascism (real kind, not the
Re: (Score:3)
In which case you know there was a robbery and you have reason to believe the video contains the details of the crime. That's a bit different than walking in and saying, hey, give me all the video on this guy. No reason, just I want it.
The story did not say that the police went to the phone company and asked for location data about every person in the area. They asked for a specific person's data. Why? Because they had a reason to believe the info relates to the crime.
Further, places with CCTV announce they have CCTV.
People carrying a cell phone are being tracked by the cell company.
If you commit a crime against their network, they have every right to bundle relevant data up and submit it with their complaint to the police or courts.
Two points you just made here. First, they own that data and can use it as they see fit without asking you. Second, they keep the data so they can prove any crimes, which may not come to completion for month
Re: (Score:2)
So the CCTV images collected by the store or company you are near don't belong to them, they belong to you?
They don't belong to the police, they're not public information, and the police can't walk in and demand videos of you.
You admit that the cops can ask for data. If the company gives them the data just by asking, they don't need a warrant. If they have a warrant, it isn't "asking" anymore.
There have been attempts to force them to turn over data without a warrant. Lots of attempts. The judge pondering the need for a warrant is completely-irrelevant unless the police are allowed to force the release of data without a warrant in one scenario.
You've admitted that a telephone company can release location data about you if they are reporting a crime you've committed against them.
Yep. They have the right to do that, they have standing, and they're reporting a crime. They're volunteering evidence.
If the polic
Re: (Score:2)
They don't belong to the police, they're not public information, and the police can't walk in and demand videos of you.
They can, however, ask, and be given, without requiring a warrant. That's the point here. The plaintiff here says a warrant is needed. You and I seem to agree that one is not. You want to go further and talk about whether the police can demand something without a warrant, but that's outside the scope of this legal issue.
If the police order you to allow them to search your house, sans warrant,
Nothing about this case deals with the police ordering anything.
Wiretapping laws actually go further: the police can't tap the phone lines just because Verizon says it's okay;
This case has even less to do with wiretapping. Getting location data is not wiretapping.
Re: (Score:3)
But a warrant is needed if the liquor store owner doesn't want to voluntarily give up the video. And a warrant is justified for a reasonable search, since it's virtually a certainty that the thief is on the video.
Getting location records for thousands of cellular customers is an unreasonable search. No only is it not certain that the perp is in the data, it is a certainty that the vast ma
Re: (Score:3)
Getting location records for thousands of cellular customers is an unreasonable search.
The story is about location data for one cellular customer. The court case is about that one convicted criminal.
Apples to oranges (Score:3)
It is like getting the video from the liquor store cameras to ID the bastard that just robbed it. It is exactly the same thing, information about your whereabouts from a third party. No warrant needed.
They are not the same thing. If a liquor store gets robbed THEY are the ones calling the cops and they are the one providing the tape. First party. The phone company isn't the one calling the cops so they are a third party. Can you not see the difference? Police can go and ask but the phone company should be under no obligation to comply without a warrant. Likewise if they suspect that a liquor store might have footage of the guy who robbed some other store nearby the police can ask but the liquor sto
Re: (Score:2)
Police can go and ask but the phone company should be under no obligation to comply without a warrant.
That's significantly different than the claim that the police MUST have a warrant just to ask. Can you not see the difference? The issue is not if the phone company was under an obligation to comply, it is about the cops asking and the company complying.
My legal right to privacy doesn't change just because someone is nosy.
But it does change when you voluntarily carry a device that someone else can use to track you. "I am carrying a device that responds to regular pings from a fixed land-based radio system that has the ability to triangulate where I am" is a significant state
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, well this liquor store uses a security monitoring company and they store the video off site. Now we're right back where we started. You still haven't made the logic work.
In fact, to make the analogy more accurate, we would have to stipulate that the thief could only commit robberies when there were at least three corporate owned cameras focused on him in public. Trying to claim the identity and location of the thief is private information now seems pretty goddamned silly, yes?
Look, its not about so
Are radio signals not public? (Score:2)
This is not public information
Yes and no. If the location is only record by the cell company, no it is not public. However if law enforcement adds antennas to CCTV and other government equipment, then location may be public. Your cell phone is broadcasting a signal via radio. Law enforcement may be able to passively listen and log, not emulate a cell phone tower, but just listen to broadcast radio signals. The matchmaking signals between equipment, not the conversation between people?
Re: (Score:2)
That requires a method for identifying the individuals represented by each signal. The IMEI identifies the phone itself; the IMSI identifies the SIM card. The connection is encrypted, although I'm unclear about whether the IMEI is encrypted.
Listening would be akin to eavesdropping, which is also illegal without a warrant in many jurisdictions. This eavesdropping may not be currently illegal; perhaps it should be. I dislike mass data gathering--what is called domestic spying.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Right, and I'm saying we potentially need to expand eavesdropping laws to prevent that kind of data gathering.
Imagine if they put cameras on all the telephone poles, used face recognition software to track you--moving from frame to frame, they can identify which bodies are the same, and have few individuals to compare, thus high accuracy--and thus had a database of everywhere you've gone. They can track your car, your face, your clothing. They have a full log of every movement you've made.
Would that
Re: (Score:2)
Would that be something you want the government (or anyone) doing?
You can't put toothpaste back into the tube. Don't walk into a major airport, they already do this. Don't walk into any major retailer, they already do this. Don't drive down any major freeway, they already do this. Don't park in any parking lot or space where there is a time limit, they already do this.
You are in plain sight. If you are in plain sight, don't expect privacy laws to protect you from being seen.
Re: (Score:3)
This case is seeking to overturn the "we signed away the data". As in, we signed away the data cause the telcos needed it to do a job. This is trying to reverse that law so just giving them access to do a job doesn't mean they own the data.
Also, you do not need a search warrant to get telco data. Since it's their data on you, you have no 4th amendment rights. And, since it's their data on you, they have no 4th amendment rights. I mean, they can charge something because it costs them money to comply, bu
Re: (Score:2)
Let's not forget, most cell companies today have contractual privacy policies [verizon.com] in place which promise to safeguard such information unless disclosed "to comply with valid legal process." Additionally, Federal law (47USC222) specifically burdens cellcos with maintaining such records in confidence. It's not "their data" to do with as they want.
Contrast to Smith v. Maryland, where the court's reasoning for not requiring a warrant for so-called "meta-data" hinged
Re: (Score:2)
"Additionally, Federal law (47USC222) specifically burdens cellcos with maintaining such records in confidence. It's not "their data" to do with as they want."
Looking at it another way, one could get the distinct impression that the Feds think this data is theirs, the telcos are just collecting and storing it for later use in prosecutions.
Re: (Score:2)
How did LEA get the data?
Some of the guys in the gang started talking, and mentioned that Timothy Carpenter was at all of the burglaries. The cops decided to see if his cell data confirmed what the were saying. So they asked the cell company, and lo and behold, the cell tower pings match what the other people were saying.
Re: (Score:2)
Once LEO knows of everyone in the area over days, weeks, months it just a GUI map to replay that day, hour, time.
The more wealthy cities, states, federal/state funded police efforts have long term voice prints collections at a city/state level too
Just never let a good lawyer find the city/state
Err on side of rights (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
> When, exactly, did getting a warrant become such a burden on law enforcement?
Shortly after the police discovered they could get access to information they wanted, and as soon as they realized they could get it faster without a warrant.
Life sentence... (Score:5, Insightful)
The accused in the case robbed some Radio Shacks and cell phone stores and (ironically) stole phones. He didn't kill or seriously maim anyone.
How does what amounts to a life sentence make sense for this crime? Especially while pharma CEOs who get people hooked on opioids, polluters who cause cancer clusters, etc walk free.
Answer: it was his punishment for requesting a jury trial, not entering into a plea bargain under threat of a severe sentence. This case embodies a lot of what is wrong with the American injustice system. Even if you have no sympathy for the accused, remember that the taxpayers will be paying to jail him for life, instead of giving him a reasonable sentence and rehabilitating him.
This is money that can be spent on other services or simply returned to the taxpayers. Beyond disgusting.
Re: (Score:2)
How does what amounts to a life sentence make sense for this crime?
Because robbery with a firearm carries a minimum mandatory sentence. He was convicted of several counts, which all add up. I have mixed feelings about this - the sentence seems excessive, but this wasn't a single lapse in judgement. He's a violent criminal, and society may very well be better off with him locked up, cost be damned. I don't know what the parole rules are for federal armed robbery, but I suspect he'll be released earlier than his life sentence would let on.
Re: (Score:2)
Congress abolished Federal parole in the 1980s. At most, he'll get ~25% credit for time served, which is still essentially a life sentence.
He WAS a violent criminal at one point in his life. Without knowing the background, he might well be able to be rehabilitated. Cases like this are why mandatory minima and lack of parole based on actions in prison are a bad idea.
Obama and his attorneys general were moving towards a fairer sentencing regime. I suspect that Trump and his evil elf from Alabama will undo
Re: (Score:3)
According to the decision [brennancenter.org] it wasn't just robbery:
At his signal, the robbers entered the store, brandished their guns, herded customers and employees to the back, and ordered the employees to fill the robbersâ(TM) bags with new smartphones.
There's a world of difference between shoplifting or even smashing a window and stealing phones after closing and an armed robbery where you put a gun to the face of some poor clerk. In the former cases, I would probably be inclined to leniency and rehabilitation (at least for the first 8 offenses) because they are crimes that don't involve direct violence against another human being.
I would also be inclined to leniency if this was a one-time offense or some
Re: (Score:2)
Your and my definitions of "leniency" just differ. A harsh sentence for a non-murder crime (remember, people were threatened, not actually harmed) should be 15-20 years, not life. Leniency would be something like 1-5 years.
That's the way it works in most of the civilized world outside the US. A system that locks up 1% of its adult residents is broken.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree. 15-20 years for threatening people with a gun during a robbery, multiplied by at least 6 separate instances. Even at the low end of your range, that's 90 years.
I would like to reduce incarceration in the US, and I think there's plenty of scope to do that by treating drug addictions as a medical problem and by rehabilitating those not convicted of violent crimes.
On the record that's before us, this guy just isn't a candidate.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So basically your position is that once you commit a crime, you should be able to commit additional instances of that crime for no additional penalty? It's like a buy-1-get-7 free deal! Rob one bank, get 15 years in jail. Rob another 3, that's fine it's still just 15 years in jail.
In that system, you would be stupid not to be a repeat offender!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I mean, for most crimes it's a steeply ascending scale. First DUI, fine and 90 day suspension. Second DUI, 7 days in jail and a year suspension. Third DUI, 6 months prison, felony conviction, lifetime suspension.
I think we as a society recognize that one-time criminals can often be rehabilitated and that harsh sentences right off the bat are both unjust and perpetuate crime by making it nearly impossible for folks to reintegrate. That's why most sentencing scales upwards, not downwards, as the number of cri
Re: (Score:2)
Whoops, it was actually 8 separate instances, not just 6. So taking 15 years (your low estimate) times the 8 instances, gives 120 years, which is a hair above what he actually got.
In any case, 90 or 120 is pretty much the same sentence.
Re: (Score:2)
Was anyone killed or injured during these robberies? The fact they were armed with guns doesn't mean they intended to use those guns, it certainly introduces a lot more risk that such a thing could happen, but not 116 years worth.
More over, is someone who commits eight armed robberies eight times as bad as someone who commits one? Or four times as bad as someone who commits two? If not, then why do the sentences occur concurrently?
I draw a distinction between someone who is a one-time armed robber vs someon
Re: (Score:2)
Especially if you provide educational/career-training opportunities (other than in crime from other inmates) while they are jailed for 10 years.
Yeah, one can make the argument that those opportunities aren't provided free to the public at large, but they SHOULD be. Free/cheap community college is a great thing -- glad that more enlightened states are floating the idea.
Re: (Score:2)
Ask anyone who has actually experienced it, and they will concur: having a gun put up to your face in anger is definitely an injury.
I also draw a distinction between a one-time armed robber and a repeated & premeditated one. I though I called that out as a major factor in leniency.
As far as repeat offenders go, you understand that by "discounting" later occurrences you are actually incentivizing a criminal who has already committed one count to keep committing them right?
Re: (Score:2)
(1) I've had a gun pulled on me by some stupid kid in a carjacking. I don't actually wish that kid death (or a lifetime in prison) if he was caught. The human brain doesn't fully develop until the mid-20s -- kid was maybe 15 and may have been pushed into doing it by older peers. This experience didn't make me more authoritarian or more likely to support "law and order." Rather, I saw the total uselessness of the police in this instance. (They found the car, then it disappeared from their impound lot.)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, I would consider the immaturity of the defendant as a mitigation in sentencing.
Yes, I would consider that the ringleader (like Mr Carpenter) is more culpable than a kid "pushed into doing it".
Yes, being a victim of crime doesn't make you more 'law and order' or trust the police.
I think we agree more than we disagree here.
Re: (Score:2)
He didn't kill or seriously maim anyone.
These robberies involved repeatedly threatening people with firearms. It was pure luck no one got killed.
it was his punishment for requesting a jury trial
The huge delta between negotiated sentences and the consequence of jury trials is a reflection of how great the distance is between citizens and their rulers in the US. We use to hang people for this shit and I can't think of any good reasons why we aren't doing that today; just a lot of bad ones.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed on the first part.
Disagreed on the second part. We also used to:
* Lynch people of different races who chose to enter into a relationship
* Not allow people of different races to share public facilities
Re: (Score:2)
Grievance shit: #1 on the list of bad reasons.
Re: (Score:2)
Because sometimes the justice system makes mistakes, and when an innocent person is put to death, there is no way to make them whole again.
Re: (Score:2)
The whole world knows You! Yes!! Yay!!! has the best justice money can buy. OK?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
116 Years?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Armed robbery is bad, and multiple armed robberies is worse, but 116 years seems like overkill.
I know it's not the point of the article... but I feel like the sentencing algorithms have some bugs.
Re: (Score:2)
Bugs? No. They're features.
The laws are just written and enforced by authoritarian garbage for the most part. The scum WANT cops and prosecutors to be able to bully accused people into a plea bargain under threat of a life sentence, instead of allowing people to exercise their God given right to a jury trial.
The US is far from a "free country" -- it has an authoritarian and Puritanical streak as wide as the country itself.
He probably gambled and lost (Score:2)
Our entire system is designe
The real scum... (Score:3)
are the media pimps and lobbyists who make money on people remaining afraid, despite crime being at a 50 year low, and the US generally being a safe country.
Though I'm not going to excuse the American voters just because they're "frightened," either.
People? (Score:2)
Argument Transcripts (Score:2)
As the oral arguments for this case will be heard Wednesday, you'll be able to download the Argument Transcripts [supremecourt.gov] on Wednesday afteroon, or Thursday Morning.
While the questions asked don't necessarily indicate how judges are leaning on the case, as they will sometimes act as devil's advocate, it's still worth checking out as a rough guide to what they think are the important elements are to the case.
World's easiest alibi? (Score:2)
thieves tend to carry their cellphones with them to work. When they use their phones on the job, police find it easier to do their jobs. They can get cellphone tower records that help place suspects in the vicinity of crimes
Or not.
Just give your cellphone to a "friend" and have them make a few calls from somewhere a long way from where you are "working". Alibi established!
Even if it doesn't hold up, it could remove you from the list of "usual suspects" for at least the first phase. And you never know, the cops might stitch up someone else for your crimes. So for the small inconvenience (unless you like taking selfies as you break in) of laying a false trail, you'd have to think that criminals would already be doing this. I
Swichies Anyone? (Score:2)
Expecting spike in sales of "iPad Micro" (Score:2)
Define a cell phone? This is a serious question.
Imagine a city that has created a metro wide WiFi network for all the poor poor people in the city to read books, get the weather, and take college courses from home. Now imagine this same city is arresting drug dealers, pick pockets, and petty criminals based on their cell phone location data. A cell phone is required to have accurate location data for 911 service. Removing the SIM card will still allow a phone to call 911 and get it's location. Presumab
Re: (Score:2)
The average criminal isn't going to do that. Frankly, if they were as smart as you say, they would just leave the cell phone at home while committing crimes.
Re: (Score:2)
Imagine a drug dealer getting caught for selling drugs. In the case the cell phone records are used in the conviction. This drug dealer goes to prison and while there runs into someone that's smart enough to hide his tracks well but caused enough trouble that significant resources were used to catch him. This white collar criminal is now teaching the drug dealer in prison how to not get caught again by not carrying a cell phone but instead using a different device to communicate.
Sure, they can leave thei
mandate warrants (Score:5, Informative)
Of course warrants should be mandated. Without monitoring and checks, the victims of police have little or no protection or legal recourse. To prevent abuse the police should be monitored and checked constantly in every way feasible while on the job. Here are just a few of the recent examples of police corruption and abuse.
- In Denver, the police are stealing cars [reason.com].
- In New York, police handcuffed and raped a teenager. [independent.co.uk] Then over a dozen other cops threatened the victim [huffingtonpost.com] to prevent her from reporting the crime.
- Police steal more than criminals. [coyoteblog.com]
- In Utah a cop who assaulted and arrested [nydailynews.com] a nurse for objecting to his inappropriate demands to draw blood from a suspect.
- In Los Angeles a cop was caught by his own body cam [cbsnews.com] planting drugs on a suspect.
All searches recorded (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think there should be a high bar for being able to search mobile tower records, but there should be a bar.
Specifically, I think any search must first be lodged with the judiciary with full details as to the scope of and reason for the search. And telephony providers should have full audit trails of what searches were performed so it can be verified that the searches complied with the scope.
The ruling needs to address all location tracking (Score:2)
The ruling needs to say that a warrant is required for the government to access location data, no matter who or how it was collected.
As long as the companies aren't forced (Score:2)
Note Stringray devices are a different story.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I was getting a lapdance from a one-armed stripper
Alas, if only the deciding case was a serial lapdance recipient instead of a serial armed robber.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I've been in the vicinity of a strip club in Rantoul, Illinois
Let's say there was stripper murdered behind the strip club. So the police check the phone data, and 1000 people were in the vicinity. Then a few days later there is another murder behind another strip club, and another 1000 people were in the vicinity at the time of the murder ... but there is this one guy that was at both places. The police might want to talk to that guy.
Requiring the police to get a warrant may slow this process down by several minutes.
If police want information from a goddamn phone, they need to get a goddamned warrant.
This isn't about getting information from a phone
Re: "in the vicinity" (Score:3)
" This isn't about getting information from a phone. It is about getting information collected by a cell tower. They want info from the phone company, not from you. "
Have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Curious if your logic works the same way if we change the mechanism a bit.
Do you think the police need a warrant to peruse through your credit card statements at will or perhaps take a look at your bank accounts whenever they feel the need to ?
Online habits perhaps ?
After all, they want info fr
Re: (Score:2)
Do you think the police need a warrant to peruse through your credit card statements at will or perhaps take a look at your bank accounts whenever they feel the need to ?
You created that information. You did not create the location information that the cell phone company measured.
The bottom line is this: If you want identifying or detailed information of any kind on an individual, then a warrant shoud be required.
I see you rob a bank. Should the police have to get a warrant before I tell them what you were wearing, what the license plate number of the car you were driving was, or perhaps even your name and address if I recognized you? That's "detailed information" on an individual.
The bank has cameras. Should the police be required to get a warrant to get copies of the video from the bank you robbed, or ca
Re: (Score:2)
Requiring the police to get a warrant may slow this process down by several minutes.
It might prevent this from happening at all, but I think that's what you were actually trying to convey. Your scenario might be "fishing", but a more relevant scenario would be narrowing the field down to half a dozen suspects and then asking if any of them was in the vicinity during both events -- which would be more likely to be approved for a warrant, were one to be necessary.
It would be like needing to get a warrant before questioning the valet at the club about seeing any of the suspects being there
Re: (Score:2)
Even if it were an undue burden, so what?
I'd rather a few guilty parties go free than police have unfettered right to violate people's privacy. Making police dot all the i's and cross the t's reminds them that they're EMPLOYEES of the public, nothing more. Humble, restrained cops are a good thing.
Re: (Score:3)
So basically, what you're saying is, "If you don't want your phone calls eavesdropped, you should not use a device that broadcasts them over radio frequency."
If police should need a warrant to listen in on phone calls, they should need a warrant for location information as well. Remember, this location information is between you and the phone company.
And why is it such a horrible burden for law enforcement to obtain a warrant in the firs
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
So basically, what you're saying is, "If you don't want your phone calls eavesdropped, you should not use a device that broadcasts them over radio frequency."
That would be what I say. It's pretty obvious. If you want to keep a secret, don't transmit it via the public airwaves in a way that anyone who wants to can listen in. I think that's a pretty common sense attitude to have. Unfortunately, we have precedent from morons who thought their analog cell calls were guaranteed to be private despite being able to be received by UHF TV sets. That led to 47USC302 that mandates frequency blocks on radios over parts of the cell bands.
People who transmit their voice usi
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You can get a warrant for a wandering dementia patient. Look up the Silver Alert.
I know what you can do. I know how cellphone forensics works. I deal with SAR. Most companies won't require a warrant, though, just a signed statement from an official party.
What can be done is irrelevant to the point. The point is, time matters for some situations, and being forced to get what shouldn't be necessary is a waste of time that endangers a life.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
People who transmit their voice using radio should be educated that they are doing that, not coddled into thinking there is some magic that turns the insecure medium they are using into a secure one. And people who carry devices that they know can be used to track them whereever they go should learn to live with the natural result of their decision, not have artificial legal protections put in place to allow them their convenience while avoiding the results of their decisions.
And people who radiate heat should know that it could be used to track them even through curtains and walls?
I don't think so. There's something known as "a reasonable expectation of privacy". When lawmakers in the 19th century talked about "a walk in the woods" having an expectation of privacy, I'm fairly certain that they didn't mean that you should be free to track their location.
Unless you deliberately broadcast where you are, you should have the expectation that no-one is triangulating traffic the av
Re: (Score:2)
And people who radiate heat should know that it could be used to track them even through curtains and walls?
Hmm. Already discussed and ruled on. Did you choose to radiate heat or is it an inevitable result of being alive? Next.
There's something known as "a reasonable expectation of privacy".
Yes, there is. "Transmitting my voice by unencrypted radio signals and receiving unencrypted radio signals in return" should yield no expectation of privacy to a reasonable person. The reason why legislation was enacted to "protect" such ignorant people was two-fold: first was to protect the profits of the cell phone companies* because second it was being proven beyond a shadow of doubt tha
Logic (Score:2)
Which is why the police don't need a warrant - you ALREADY AGREED TO SHARE THAT INFORMATION.
I disagree.
Police need a warrant to wiretap a land line. I see no logical difference in what our civil rights should be required of them merely because the signal is carried over radio waves. These days the phone will be tapped at the central office anyway so it's not like they have to do something differently. If they have reasonable grounds to suspect someone of a crime then it shouldn't be hard to get a warrant.
Re: (Score:2)
Police need a warrant to wiretap a land line. I see no logical difference in what our civil rights should be required of them merely because the signal is carried over radio waves.
If this were an analog cell call that can be easily received by radios and TVs, using the public airwaves, then why should anyone need a warrant to listen? You choose to transmit a radio signal in my airspace, I should get to listen to it.
But that's not the issue here. The issue is location data, which is not transmitted by radio, even though radio is involved. Is this different than the police knowing the phone number of a landline caller and using a simple reverse directory to find the address? No, not
Re: (Score:2)
The courts have thrown out that justification when people used it to descarmble signals they picked up out of the air
"Descarmble" [sic] is not what I was talking about. Analog cell calls were not scarmbled, they were in the clear, and could be picked up by TVs of the day.
And the courts have never been wrong. Of course.
Re:"in the vicinity" (Score:5, Insightful)
I would take the side they don't need a warrant for the cell tower triangulation data if the phone company is willing to part with it.
If no warrant is required, then how is the phone company supposed to know it is a legitimate crime investigation, and not some cop trying to track down the guy dating his ex-girlfriend?
Many people assume that getting a warrant is an undue burden. Most jurisdictions have judges available or on-call 24/7, and a judge can review and issue a warrant in a few minutes if it is clearly justified.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:"in the vicinity" (Score:5, Informative)
I happened to recently read a couple of insightful articles by law professors about this specific case.
The first article made the very good point that a positive law rule covers a lot of this. In other words, if a regular private citizen couldn't normally get the information, then the Police should need a warrant to get it. [washingtonpost.com]
The second writer says he disagrees, but mostly makes the point that just using that standard isn't enough, because sometimes there are other factors which would go into a "reasonable expectation of privacy". [washingtonpost.com]
Personally, I'm hoping for a bright-line test for the police to come out of this case which lets everyone know that the police can't go through data people normally don't have access to. I'm not holding by breath, though.
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. And getting a warrant requires (or at least is supposed to require) someone testifying as to the proof of probable cause UNDER OATH.
"...and no warrants shall issue, but upon PROBABLE CAUSE, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION..."
And what that means, or should mean, is that someone is in court, either in person or over the phone, swearing to the facts, under oath, under penalty of perjury.
Part of the point of getting a warrant, is that some cop is so sure of the facts that he's willing to put his ass o
Re: (Score:2)
Warrant to search phone company records for triangulation data not so cut n' dry.
They are required to get a warrant to do something like attaching a GPS tracker [theatlantic.com] to your car. I fail to see the difference between that and scraping nearly-as-good-as-GPS location information from a 3rd party which would bring the need for a warrant into question.
Re: (Score:2)
I really don't see how that passes muster though. If the phone company wanted they could record your calls and turn them over as well because of the third party rule, but that was decided when we were far more reasonable about privacy rights.
Re: (Score:2)
And phone companies are often subsidized by government,
Not just subsidized - all of them receive their corporate charter from government. In telecommunications, they rely on government-created and enforced rights on parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. Verizon is just as much beholden to the US government as the East India Company was to the UK - I don't think you can really separate them.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You misspelled "privileges"....
Re: (Score:2)
And phone companies are often subsidized by government, which means they are always willing to part with it, no matter how legally irrelevant.
Many phone companies have a written policy of releasing customer data only when legally compelled to do so.
Re: (Score:2)
Many phone companies have a written policy of releasing customer data only when legally compelled to do so.
I believe the issue is how they behave when they get a request that isn't necessarily 'legally compelling'. I have a personal policy of turning over anything that I'm legally compelled to turn over, but that doesn't mean that I blindly comply with every request just because it comes from a government representative.
Re: (Score:2)
They didn't release any information about you. They released information about their towers.
Re: (Score:2)
they "accidentally" capture 10,000 records
So they charge one person with a major crime and 9,999 with aggravated mopery with intent to gawk.
Re: (Score:2)
The lesson is to always buy mayo if you're buying other ham and cheese sandwich stuff.
But I never put mayo on my ham and cheese sandwiches. I'll put on onions and mustard but never mayonnaise. If I buy a sandwich, and it happens to have mayonnaise on it, I'll eat it happily but I don't put it on myself. To me mayonnaise is for french fries and tater tots. I don't even have ketchup in my house, except maybe some packets I save from when I grab a burger and the person packing the bag tosses in ketchup without asking. If someone stops by to eat and they want ketchup then I offer those pack
Re: (Score:2)
Of course then they interview the store staff that was on the schedule for the date/time of your receipt and/or the time your cellphone was in the area.
Pragmatically if you're going to do something illegal leave the phone at home*, if you need a phone use a burner that was not activated at your home, is always turned on and off in the location of a mall, or other high population area**.
Now, this takes discipline, something most bad guys lack in spades... so no worries.
The bad guys with the proper skills and
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, in civilized countries, there IS an expectation of privacy in business records. The EU actually has data retention limits that require deletion of such data after a specific time period. Location data is also considered personal, not strictly a business record.
If someone used cell location data to (say) stalk a celebrity, would the "business record" argument fly? What's wrong with cops having to ask a judge for a warrant? Why should police be given any more power than they need?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I remember when call records were the property of the calling/called parties. Not the phone company. There was a statement in the customer agreement to the effect that the telephone company would access these records for the purpose of billing and resolving technical problems. Otherwise, they had a fiduciary duty to protect it on my behalf. I think this changed around 1996 with some fine print in a telecom bill. Now they are the property of the phone company. And the phone company doesn't really give a shit