Bitcoin Hits $10,000 Because Ceilings Are Just a Construct, Man (gizmodo.com) 348
An anonymous reader shares a report: On Tuesday, the trading price of the most prominent cryptocurrency hit $10,000 for the first time. And that nice round number will almost certainly have the kind of psychological effect that brings in new traders. Based on analysts' recent predictions, the $10,000 milestone could be the beginning of the end or just the beginning. Some thought that $2,000 would be the point at which we'd see a reversal of Bitcoin's ascent. Others predicted it would top out at $4,000. Then, $4,000 became the floor. These days, analysts with decent reputations have predicted the cryptocurrency's trading price could go as high as $50,000, $100,000, and even $1 million.
5 bucks (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:5 bucks (Score:5, Funny)
Good grief! You're loaded! It's time to think about hiring a butler!
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Good grief! You're loaded! It's time to think about hiring a butler!
I'll bet the Butler won't take bitcoin for payment.. But that's just a guess..
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I'll bet the Butler won't take bitcoin for payment.. But that's just a guess..
That's what Doge Coins are for.
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I've never had anyone turn me down when I offered to pay them in Bitcoin. Not. One. Person.
Have you tried it with cashiers?
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I do, in fact, have a debit card attached to my Bitcoin wallet.
Did the cashier ring you up in Bitcoin? No? You didn't pay the cashier Bitcoin. You spent Bitcoin. You paid the cashier. You did not pay the cashier Bitcoin.
Re:5 bucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Pure speculation. It is not used (and can not be used) as currency. Somebody is just pumping the price to lure in suckers. Ironically crypto is propably most manipulated market in the world. And people just buy it with no other intention than to sell it later to somebody else for higher price. This can not and will not end well. Remember, value is not generated out of thin air, just transfered from one to another, in order for one person to get a "bitcoin millionaire" there MUST be thousand people who lose 1000$. There is no way around it.
Seems like you can use it as currency (Score:2)
You can't use BTC for everything but more and more I am seeing people and websites accepting BTC for real goods and services. Although it may not technically be "currency" it's close to making no difference.
Re:Seems like you can use it as currency (Score:4, Informative)
Most of those websites aren't really using BTC in the sense that they are actually holding BTC you transfer to them like they would hold the USD you transferred to them. Rather, they've simply set up a conversion as part of the transaction where they receive USD in exchange for the BTC you sent them.
Re:Seems like you can use it as currency (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure there is. I need food *now*, and these might not be valuable enough in the future to sacrifice starving right now.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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And people just buy it with no other intention than to sell it later to somebody else for higher price.
That doesn't describe my Bitcoin transactions at all. Many things cannot be bought easily with Bitcoin. Other things can only be bought easily with Bitcoin. AlphaBay & Hanza are gone, but those were only two heads of the hydra.
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in order for one person to get a "bitcoin millionaire" there MUST be thousand people who lose 1000$. There is no way around it.
Yes, there is a way around it. As more fiat money is created out of thin air, you can have a scenario where everybody can sell his bitcoin for more than he bought it for.
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Re:5 bucks (Score:4, Insightful)
In that case it's the exchange that loses the money.
It's the people that are holding fiat that are losing the value of their money
Re:5 bucks (Score:4, Interesting)
In that case it's the exchange that loses the money.
It's the people that are holding fiat that are losing the value of their money
It's true that if you assume bitcoin is actually worth what the exchange pays for it (and it would be, because some entity is willing to pay for it), then the exchange has not actually lost any value, just exchanged one form of it for another. But from what I gather, GP wasn't counting the value of bitcoin as an actual value. With that assumption, then the exchange is rapidly losing money because they are paying out something of value (USD) for something of no value (bitcoin).
And if you assume, as GP did, that bitcoin is a closed system, and the only way to get bitcoins is to buy them from the exchange (not technically true but for most people entering the market at this point it might as well be), then people are giving USD in exchange for bitcoins, putting money into the market, then it's possible for one person to sell a ton of coins that have gone way up in value, and be paid out all the exchange's USD reserve. In that case, since the exchange can't print more money, they have essentially lost the ability to buy anyone else's bitcoins. At that point the people who still own bitcoins technically haven't lost value either, but as there's no entity (we assume only one exchange in this scenario) that can pay them for their bitcoins, the coins essentially become worthless outside of the bitcoin system.
So in the end I guess it depends on your definition of money. I don't personally consider bitcoin to be money, though it's getting a lot closer. But if it is money, then the exchange never loses value at all, since it's essentially just a money changer. On the other hand, if bitcoin isn't money, then the exchange is almost guaranteed to lose money if the currency becomes more valuable.
As with all things, its just down to a point of view.
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But are you saying that we have had 1000's % inflation in recent years in fiat currencies? Of course not.
No, this process is price discovery. If bitcoin existed thousands of years ago (like gold), it would only have appreciated a little bit in recent years. But because it was introduced just a few years ago, starting at 0, it needed to catch up with many years of inflation.
Re:5 bucks (Score:4, Interesting)
Um... let me simplify.
John has 1 BTC. It's worth a dollar.
Jack wants that BTC and is willing to play John 2 dollars.
John now has 1 BTC worth 2 dollars, but Jill wants to buy it for 10 dollars.
Fast forward through 10, 20, 50 subsequent buyers, end up with 1 BTC worth 10K dollars and rising. Money (as in dollars) wasn't lost, they simply exchanged hands between various people for the same product.
Value was not generated out of thin air, it was a product of the ancient demand/offer balance. As long as people want BTC and are willing to play hefty sums of money for it, its value would increase.
Also BTC can be and is used as currency. It has a slow transfer rate, that's for sure, but it works. Here in my 3rd world country I can buy a variety of legal products with it, such as IT hardware, software and general goods.
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So can horse manure. Is that a currency too?
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Amazingly, yes it is.
Anything can be used as a currency, including but not limited to horse manure. But in order to be a successful currency, it needs to fulfill some other requirements.
The transaction cost is now $75 (Score:2)
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If it's worth $80 with a Bitcoin value of $10K, wouldn't it be a gross of $7995 if Bitcoin hits one million?
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Bitcoin hitting one million would be gross alright.
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The second one is pretty much assured when it crashes, as the Bitcoin blockchain is slow and will get much slower during a crash. 10k/coin just means that people are doing a pump&dump scam. Most people that buy now will not even recover their investment.
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Most people that buy now will not even recover their investment.
I think you're right, but people have been saying the same thing for a long time now and have been mistaken.
Re: 5 bucks (Score:4, Interesting)
They misjudged the size of the pool of fools. The sharp rise of the last few months is a sure sign the crash is near. At the moment, those that have invested are frantically trying to get more to invest, because a $10'000 coin is worth nothing if nobody buys it. But the remaining pool of fools is dwindling fast.
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But the remaining pool of fools is dwindling fast.
I don't know. There are a lot of fools. A sucker is born every minute and all that.
I'm sure the bubble will burst. I haven't the foggiest idea how far we are from that, and neither do you.
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Bitcoin is 100% a bubble and will eventually crash but I'm not so sure that we are near the tipping point yet. It is ridiculously easy to invest in (any fool can create an account with an exchange and buy some BTC), and the pool is vast (anyone in the world with Internet access can theoretically buy in). A lot of people still don't know about BTC and it is only just starting to get some mainstream attention (just because people that visit Slashdot have been bombarded with BTC news doesn't mean everyone else
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I'm just wondering if it will go away completely or not.
No, it won't go away completely: as long as there is one person who still is willing to compute transactions on an old 486 computer, bitcoin will still be around. So even if it's only Satoshi himself in a room somewhere, lit by the light of a single bare bulb..........
More practically, it's the only good option for making payments on things like malware, so it's likely to stay around for a while even if it drops drastically in value in the interim. At current transaction costs, it's only worth using for
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They misjudged the size of the pool of fools. The sharp rise of the last few months is a sure sign the crash is near. At the moment, those that have invested are frantically trying to get more to invest, because a $10'000 coin is worth nothing if nobody buys it. But the remaining pool of fools is dwindling fast.
I'm sure there are a lot of fools who own bitcoin, but I'm also sure that there is hidden wealth being moved around and money laundering. Bitcoin isn't the be-all-end-all money laundering cure, but it is a good addition to any decent money-hiding scheme. And as long as that remains the case, it will have value.
Except as a curiosity ... (Score:2, Funny)
... I don't give a shit about BTC.
I do however, wonder if Lindsay Lohan is in rehab or if Pokemon Go is still a thing.
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... I don't give a shit about BTC.
I do however, wonder if Lindsay Lohan is in rehab or if Pokemon Go is still a thing.
No and No.
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{citation}
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... I don't give a shit about BTC.
I do however, wonder if Lindsay Lohan is in rehab or if Pokemon Go is still a thing.
You can use BTC to buy both Pokémon Go and Lindsay Lohan.
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How many Lindsay Lohan's can I buy with 1 BTC?
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I see what you did there, what with sweeping the spectrum from innocent to matters dark.
Good points.
What does this do to mining economics (Score:2)
I have to admit I've not really kept up on Bitcoin mining economics for some time, but about a decade ago I remember reading a lot about how if you were not using custom ASIC processors to mine you were spending more on electricity than you were getting from bitcoin...
With BTC going up and up it seems like at this point there's no hardware that is not economical to mine on any longer. Is that really the case or has mining at this stage become so compute intensive you still need powerful custom hardware to
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A decade ago? Can you share your time machine? ASICs arrived for mining early 2013.
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Honestly, I remember having the same conversation with my old employer, almost a decade ago. I'm not sure about the exact hardware requirements but it was pretty much something along the lines of what you said. Without the proper hardware, it wasn't economically feasible to mine them as you were paying more in electricity than you'd be making from the coins mined.
So rest assured, you're not that far off. Thing is I probably would've cashed out when they went over $100, let alone 10k. Anyone who wasn't alrea
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It depends on the cost of electricity... Mostly anyway...
If your landlord is paying the bill, mine away my man... If YOU are paying the bill, then you'd better be careful even at 10K/Coin.
I recall that in Venezuela they are mining BitCoin for two reasons.. First, Electricity costs are unnaturally low due to government subsidies so it pays and Second, holding bolivars is a bad idea due to inflation rates so they escape that by holding BitCoin. Of course, all this is now illegal in Venezuela as is trading
That's where I was going (Score:2)
If YOU are paying the bill, then you'd better be careful even at 10K/Coin.
That's exactly what I was asking in a roundabout way, how much would the electricity cost to mine a single bitcoin today?
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at this point there's no hardware that is not economical to mine on any longer.
The bitcoin protocol has a built-in difficulty adjustment algorithm. If there is too much interest in mining (more than 6 blocks per hour found), then the difficulty is increased. If there's not enough interest in mining, the difficulty is lowered. Because the reward stays the same (currently 12.5 BTC per block + fees), the difficulty determines how profitable mine is. At status quo, only the most efficient mine can make a reasonable profit.
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Re: What does this do to mining economics (Score:4, Interesting)
Except for the little detail of: If some miners stop mining, mining becomes easier, making mining more profitable.
The cost of mining is related to the popularity of mining. The profitability of mining is a combination of the value of bitcoin and the size of the mining pool, making it not a simple economic problem.
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I'm still kicking myself.
For not buying early on? Yeah, anyone could potentially have become a millionaire by buying a bunch when it was dirt cheap- on one hand, I regret not being a BTC millionaire now; however, I still think the odds of a scheme like this taking off was pretty low. BTC just beat the odds. If we rewound the clock to 2008 and rolled the dice again, BTC most likely wouldn't be the success it is now.
Bitcoin wasn't the first or last digital currency, it's the one that got the most attention without being completel
DJI - 36,000 !!!!!! (Score:2)
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more akin to the dot-com bubble, IMO
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Well, 23,700 is today on the DOW.
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But the DJI is an index measuring the value of the stocks in companies followed by the index. It represents a weighted value of what owning shares in those companies is worth (oversimplification is simple). This is like people trading commodities and then running the value of the commodity up even though they have no interest in the actual value or usefulness of the commodity -- similar to the oft-referenced tulip situation in the Netherlands, with the pricing being run up by speculators who bought and sold
"Traditional" speculators entered the fray (Score:4, Insightful)
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Maybe this is all a government plot to burn the traffickers, money launderers, and ransomware authors. Lure them deeper into the market, then pull the rug out from under them. :)
aka (Score:5, Insightful)
These days, analysts with decent reputations have predicted the cryptocurrency's trading price could go as high as $50,000, $100,000, and even $1 million.
In other words, they have no idea why it's doing what it's doing.
I'm starting to think "expert" is someone who is physically unable to utter the words "I don't know".
Re:aka (Score:5, Funny)
These days, analysts with decent reputations have predicted the cryptocurrency's trading price could go as high as $50,000, $100,000, and even $1 million.
In other words, they have no idea why it's doing what it's doing.
I'm starting to think "expert" is someone who is physically unable to utter the words "I don't know".
I'm not an expert, but I don't know if you're right.
Re:aka (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't know, and there is a valid reason for it. The market is irrational. The market is as much about emotion as it is about fundamentals, maybe even more so. There will be a correction. The problem is, there are no forces that can take any of the irrationality out of the market. The real panic will happen when the BTC is worth 5 or 6 figures each, and corrects down to three or so. That's when people holding fair numbers of coins will start to panic, and sell off just like everyone else, trying to get any part of the profit they missed when it peaked.
And then you'll see it normalized for a while, perhaps even disappear. People mocked when a guy bought a 20,000 BTC pizza, and now many of those same people are mocking $1000 BTC.
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I'm starting to think "expert" is someone who is physically unable to utter the words "I don't know".
An actual expert has no problems with that at all. But these are "analysts", not experts. The difference is that an expert has some deep understanding and real knowledge of a thing. An "analyst" is a special form of short-term "futurist", i.e. somebody that was on occasion right by accident and is now revered as somebody that can predict the future by a group of morons of variable size.
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$1 million / coin works out to around 10 trillion dollars, assuming half the bitcoins are lost. That's about 1/6 of all the money (most of it electronic) that exists in the world. It's certainly going to suck when all of the money in the world is in a form that is limited to single digit numbers of transactions per second.
This was a reputable person who made this estimate? Reputed for what?
That's not all that's spiking upwards (Score:5, Interesting)
In related news .... the average BTC transaction fee is now at $6 USD, and climbing fast. Could be worse, however. Two weeks ago, it spiked above $19.
Does anyone seriously think that BTC is being used for anything except speculation? It sure isn't being used for "money". You've got people buying BTC using their credit cards, and converting their savings to BTC. It's a classic bubble.
It's gonna be nasty, and when the bubble pops the transaction backlog will be huge as people try to dump their BTC before they lose everything. Transaction fees will shoot through the roof. Boom or bust, the Chinese mining pools will make money hand over fist.
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No, bitcoin is not money. It's digital gold. How much does it cost to transact a bar of gold ?
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The mining-pool will just be as screwed as anybody else. The only ones that will win is those that get out early enough to actually have somebody buy their worthless merchandise. That point may already be in the past. There are indications that actually selling larger amounts of Bitcoin is already difficult.
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So you're saying it might be a good idea to buy some ASICs or GPUs and wait for the crash?
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In related news .... the average BTC transaction fee is now at $6 USD, and climbing fast. Could be worse, however. Two weeks ago, it spiked above $19.
Does anyone seriously think that BTC is being used for anything except speculation? It sure isn't being used for "money". You've got people buying BTC using their credit cards, and converting their savings to BTC. It's a classic bubble.
It's gonna be nasty, and when the bubble pops the transaction backlog will be huge as people try to dump their BTC before they lose everything. Transaction fees will shoot through the roof. Boom or bust, the Chinese mining pools will make money hand over fist.
Even $100 is pretty cheap for a large international transaction. Arguable $1000 is a cheap for certain transactions that someone would want to hide. You won't be using bitcoin to buy a pack of bubble gum, but certain people will use it.
Enough already! (Score:4, Insightful)
this is the fifth story in as many weeks with no more substance than "bitcoin hits $x!". Comments from the fist story can be copied verbatim to all the others, there's nothing new to be said on the subject. Can we please find a more interesting subject to talk about?
If I wanted to know the day price for Bitcoin, I'd use a stock ticker.
This is great insider info! (Score:3)
How can I get in before everybody hears about it?
Didn't happen (Score:2, Interesting)
Question (Score:2)
Ok, I am not well versed in economics but may be someone here can answer these questions :
With roughly 250B$ market cap between the 4 first crypto-currencies, would a collapse of Bitcoin send significant ripples through the "real" economy?
Do we know how much of this value was really invested in the currencies versus how much comes from the speculation?
Re:Question (Score:4, Informative)
If Bitcoin totally collapsed in a short enough time frame (say 2 weeks), it would be noticeable but hardly damaging to the economy at large. Google has $700B as its cap. The SPY ETF from one company that links to the S&P 500 (meaning its a small percent of the total) is ~$250B. A loss of either wouldn't significantly impact the economy*. Bitcoin's collapse would be even more minor.
The primary impacts we would notice would be any highly leveraged hedges that would collapse too and rip out funds from proper investments to cover the losses. Basically people who borrowed to pay interest on loans to buy coins would now have to liquidate stable assets to cover the required payments. If they can't pay, then the lender would need to do the same to cover lost operational cash flows.
It is quite difficult to ascertain between speculation and investment. Society has been trying to do it for centuries to curb bubbles, recessions, in/deflations, gold rushes, etc and hasn't gotten anywhere. Any interventions have resulted in worse outcomes.
* = Thou in Google's case we wouldn't lose the services totally, they would be bought up cheap and serviced by someone else. We would see service degradation and no new stuff, but it would still work.
It's Entertainment! (Score:2)
I bought $500 worth this summer. Won't ever buy more, can afford to lose it all. Having fun watching it go up, expecting it to burst at any moment. Obviously this is a bubble. When will it burst? At this point Bitcoin can't be used as currency as its becoming more valuable that the product you want to buy with it.
In related news ... (Score:5, Funny)
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Parabolic... (Score:3)
Search for "buy bitcoin" on Google's site.
The first suggestion will be "buy bitcoin with credit card."
If ordinary people are leveraging up at 10-20% per annum to buy a currency that's not accepted for most things, you know where this is going.
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Can you remember 1929? Buying stocks on margin using credit? What a mess that was..
At least there won't be a margin call to deal with when this all goes pear shaped.
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Oh, it will crash. Bitcoin is not actually worth anything in real-world terms and the current instability wipes out its usefulness as a currency. The only question is how much more fools can be found and when that supply dries up, the crash comes. The "Greater fool theory" applies nicely, and I expect a few reasonable master's theses will be written about it. (This whole thing is to obvious and predictable for a PhD of reasonable quality.)
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December 10th. That date will be December 10th.
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Gold's isn't useful either. It is also energy intensive to "create" (i.e. mine). It is useful for somethings, but it's limited uses are not the cause of it's price. U.S. dollars are not useful aside from their ability to be exchanged for goods. Dollars were previously backed by gold making their exchange rate fixed. Now it's variable. Bitcoin is not useful, but it can be exchanged for some goods or dollars (and therefore all goods including gold).
One of the benefits of a good currency is it's lack of
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And the Flanian Pobble Bead can only be exchanged for other Flanian Pobble Beads.
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Actually, Gold is pretty useful and will nowhere drop as low as 10% of its current value. The thing is that if the price of Gold drops, it will be used in more places. Gold is pretty good for a number of engineering tasks.
Incidentally, unlike Gold, Bitcoin is now actually worthless. With these severe changes in value, it has no worth as an actual currency, and that was its only worth. When it crashes, it will crash down to zero. The only worth of Bitcoin is that you may still find a greater fool than yourse
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Actually, Gold is pretty useful and will nowhere drop as low as 10% of its current value
Steel is more useful than gold, and is less than 10% of gold's value.
Gold is pretty good for a number of engineering tasks.
Most of these require gold in minute quantities. Gold is heavy and soft, which makes it a poor choice for many engineering tasks.
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Actually, Gold is pretty useful and will nowhere drop as low as 10% of its current value
Steel is more useful than gold, and is less than 10% of gold's value.
You are severely mistaken.
Gold is pretty good for a number of engineering tasks.
Most of these require gold in minute quantities. Gold is heavy and soft, which makes it a poor choice for many engineering tasks.
There are other uses for metals than making hammers from them. But you just demonstrated your level of "insight" pretty clearly.
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B. Gold is useful for some things for which there is no good substitute.
A and B are both true, but A is not true *because of* B.
If it were, we'd be melting down most of the worlds gold for engineering tasks. What's the point of having a valuable resource if you don't utilize it?
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Gold is not useful enough to warrant actually using it. It is much more useful as a store of value than as an hdmi cable. That's why we keep most of our gold in bars or chains, etc, and not in forms related to engineering applications that would make it hard to reextract. Whatever use gold has is surpassed by it's value as a currency, which is why we don't really use it.
Gold would actually become *more* useful (aside from a currency) if it's value dropped to zero.
Incidentally, unlike Gold, Bitcoin is now actually worthless.
I don't think that word means what you th
Re:DIY Cryptocurrency Mining... (Score:5, Funny)
If you want mine your own crypto currency, you need a motherboard with 19 PCIe 1X slots [amazon.com] to plug in 19 GPUs and a couple of 1200W PSUs.
And an extension cord to steal the electricity from your neighbor.
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Not so anonymous anymore.
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Liar.
Current transaction fees and times make the activities you describe impossible.
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Nope, I understand how bitcoin works, and thus I know you're a liar.
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Re:Release the Trolls (Score:4, Funny)
I appreciate your perspective, though it incorrectly assumes that I purchased a sum of bitcoin and now I'm running around daily consuming/burning that bitcoin when it should be left alone to mature in value. You seem to believe that I should have two stacks of currency: one stack of dollars to live life by, and another stack of bitcoin to leave as an investment.
In reality, all the money received from my 9-5 job, my sideline business, and my miners goes into bitcoin. Therefore, I have no dollars left for daily life. I have a constant stream of finances going into bitcoin, and some coming out of bitcoin in the form of commodities and services needed to live daily life. This model ensures that my entire budget increases in purchasing power as rapidly as bitcoin increases in value. All I have to do is ensure that the stream of finances going into bitcoin is larger than the stream coming out of bitcoin and my nest egg grows at an even more rapid pace than if I only used bitcoin as an investment.
To quote yourself, "when it increases in price this quickly then you are retarded" you would be retarded to NOT put every dollar you have into bitcoin.
Re:Release the Trolls (Score:5, Informative)
I really hope you are not serious mate!
When guys doing similar enough to what you're doing now encountered 29-Oct-1929 a fair portion of them jumped out of windows...
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At this time, Bitcoin is completely worthless as a currency as that needs stability. You are not only a liar, you are a scammer trying to do a pump&dump.
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At some point in the past, 1 bitcoin could only buy 1 slice of pizza. Today, 1 bitcoin can buy a brand new motorcycle.
At some point in the past 1 dollar could buy 10 movies tickets. Today 1 dollar can't even buy you 1 movie ticket.
Bitcoin sounds like a pretty awesome currency to me. Each to their own I suppose.
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Yes. And all the deniers have a transparent motivation: They have Bitcoin and are lying through their teeth in the hopes of driving it even higher.
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There are no market forces behind Bitcoin as it has no value. The only value it ever had was as currency. With its lack of stability that is gone. There are just a bunch of fools that hope to sell to greater fools before the crash comes.
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