Admiral Charges Hotmail Users More For Car Insurance (thetimes.co.uk) 345
One of Britain's biggest car insurers has admitted increasing premiums for drivers who apply using a Hotmail account. From a report: Motorists seeking cover from Admiral could be charged $45 extra if they use certain email addresses. The insurer said some domain names were "associated with more accidents" than others, raising applicants' risk profile. Figures from the Association of British Insurers to be published today show that the cost of car insurance has increased by more than a quarter over the past three years. Admiral said that hundreds of factors were used by underwriters in setting car insurance, with riskier motorists paying more. Issues included the age of a driver and their postcode.
WTF!? (Score:5, Funny)
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WTF changed 3 or 4 years ago in Britain? Major insurer closed? Change in liability laws? Lucas electric reopened?
25% in 3 years? Was it being artificially held down?
Re:WTF!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently the issue is mostly that modern cars have really fancy bumpers. A bumper that includes a bunch of camera equipment, and range sensors, and all kinds of other fancy gadgetry costs a lot. That means that fender benders cost a lot to repair now, when they used to be trivially cheap. It also means that fender benders tend to get reported to the insurer now, when they used to just be ignored.
Re:WTF!? (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems to be particularly worse in Europe. A minor scrape to a bumper while parking is cause for police reports and waiting around, whereas in the US a note with contact/insurance info under the wiper (or just a pile of cash obscured by a note) is the standard response.
Re:WTF!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe because in Europe (hell, probably all over the world) the standard has become to not leave contact info but a mocking note instead.
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That's not the America I live in.
SOP seems to be to drive off and hope you were unnoticed.
Re:WTF!? (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm...I guess the last few times I came out in the parking lot, to see one side or the other of my caved in by someone pulling out and hitting me, that the note just must have blown off the windshield...
Man, these days, I wonder if drivers are getting their licenses out of a box of Cracker Jacks or something....NO ONE can seem to drive these days. And the worst offenders, seem to be the ones driving the largest trucks and SUVs.
I drive a small 2 seater sports car. And each time I've come out to see the side of my car caved in (one time side view mirror also ripped off)...it was from parking next to a large truck.
Ok, maybe they weren't paying enough attention and didn't see my car, but surely they felt the impact while they turned out of the parking space and were scraping the full length of my car...??
These folks have NO fscking clue where they are in space with relation to their truck/car.
These days, I see it VERY often with pulling up to the line at a stop light.
Rather than pull all the way up to line, more and more of these Bozos are at least almost one car length away from the line.....like they stop when they see the nose of their large truck at the line, which is NOT near the line.
Even if they see me pulled way ahead of them to the line, they don't move.
In New Orleans, where we have neutral grounds (medians as others call them) on almost all roads...if making a left turn, you have a limited number of cars that can fit....and these assholes are keeping at least 1-2 cars from being able to wait for the lights to change and complete the left turn.
Its like no one taught them how to drive and judge where you car is in space.....
I won't even get into who none can seem (especially LARGE trucks/SUVs) to fscking PARK in between the lines, nor do they realize the swinging the door open full force when getting out, *might* just cause it to hit the car parked beside it....
[/rant mode off...going to get a cool drink]
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Rather than pull all the way up to line, more and more of these Bozos are at least almost one car length away from the line.....like they stop when they see the nose of their large truck at the line, which is NOT near the line.
I started seeing this in California a few years back - blew my mind. Often room for a whole extra car in front of them - are they seeing an invisible car I'm not, or something? For some reason I don't see this problem in Texas - must be because the truck is just an extension of one's self.
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I know someone who does this. She thinks it will save her insurance in the case of a rear end collision. She won't get pushed into the car in front of her.
She doesn't understand how demand lites work. I've stopped trying to convince her that the right move is to pull up once the car behind her has come to a complete stop.
Convinced she's a great driver...because she once drove a cab...but wanted to argue that cars fronts don't drop when the driver hits the brakes...never even heard of weight transfer.
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In what country do they have the police budget for that? Not here in Norway at least unless there's injury to a person, it impedes traffic or there's suspicion of drunk driving. Accidents are only property damage you fill out a form together with separate forms in the back if you disagree on what happened, check license plate and ID the file it with the insurance. If the other driver is not there, most people bail. Some pretend to give contact info and bail. Some give contact info and leave. Some hang aroun
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In the UK car parks are usually designed to damage your car. The spaces are too small, the turns difficult and there are hidden obstacles everywhere.
I've noticed that in some other countries they avoid those things and all the cars look immaculate.
Re:WTF!? (Score:5, Interesting)
The note I found under my wiper said "So there are 5, no 7 people standing around watching me write this note. A couple of them are nodding approvingly, probably because they think I'm writing my name and insurance info. Sorry, that's not going to happen but I hope the rest of your day goes better."
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Bumper covers have been about half (in terms of $) of all bodywork in America for decades.
Aren't most backup cameras etc in the tailgate/trunk lid?
3 years represents what % of the English car fleet? I know they junk cars in the UK when still almost new. Weird laws...not as bad as Japan.
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Bumper covers have been about half (in terms of $) of all bodywork in America for decades.
Yeah... it's kind of ridiculous. What we should have is a few laws to encourage vehicles be designed with inexpensive bumpers, E.G.:
(1) Every car shall provide a highly-visible exposed bumpers in good condition covering the front and rear of the vehicle for the purpose of absorbing the shock of a low-speed collision, damage caused to a vehicle with missing or faulty bumpers shall be the responsibility of the owne
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It's not simple backup cameras here, it's cameras for lane keep assist, or adaptive cruise control, or ...
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Also, junking cars in the UK when they're young is nothing to do with weird laws, it's to do with being on an island surrounded by salt water. A car that makes it to 150,000 miles in the UK is close to a miracle, because everything will have turned to rust by then.
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Maybe that shot shouldn't go on a part of the car that is meant to be sacrificial.
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A bumper that includes a bunch of camera equipment, and range sensors, and all kinds of other fancy gadgetry costs a lot.
Last time I ever had a bumper fixed at the body shop it was $1000, with no equipment in it.
A replacement camera piece of the approximate resolution used for backup cameras is about $50, and range sensors are even less expensive.
I gotta call BS on this. If there are added significant costs, then it's something else other than the relatively inexpensive electronic parts.
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Yea. I scraped the back bumper and broke the tail light cover.
The tail light "assembly" would be $300.
The bumper would be $300.
The molded plastic "spoiler" attached at the bottom of the bumper would be $400.
I said "excuse me?"
So I bought the tail light assembly online for $150 and replaced it myself. The bumper remains scraped as a reminder of how ridiculous car parts are.
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VWs are just _terrible_ these days.
The first step to replace the brake master cylinder on a new 'bug'? Remove front bumper. No bullshit. It's like the old bad jokes about English cars, but true.
Even my German cousin has VW on his 'never again' list. If you know any Germans, that should tell you just how shitty VWs are.
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That's what they get for paying to much for a Neon.
WTF is a 'serious fender bender'?
Some cars have always wrecked 'more expensive' than others. BMWs have high insurance because they are totaled by hitting falling leaves.
I doubt the cars are being replaced quick enough to justify a 25% premium increase in 3 years. Also question why the insane increase is only in the UK.
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They are desperately trying to find ways to predict which customers will cause what insurance claims so they can avoid the ones that will actually cost them money while offering favorable rates to those that will just keep paying without ever having an insurance claim. That's the business they're in.
That can (and does) take very bizarre forms. Like this one.
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The real question is (assuming their risk-analysis people aren't just chasing butterflies) -- what mechanism would correlate Hotmail accounts with a statistically greater risk of loss?
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close, but not quite.
It's a matter of getting each to pay its own way. They're *quite* happy to take a high-about customer, as long as premiums cover average losses.
Insurance compares (in general) don't actually make their money by charging more premiums the the claims cost, although they make a tiny bit there (something like 1 of premium,iirc).
Rather, they make their profits from having use of the money between pay-i and pay-out--and do quite nicely from investing this way.
hawk
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They are desperately trying to find ways to predict which customers will cause what insurance claims so they can avoid the ones that will actually cost them money while offering favorable rates to those that will just keep paying without ever having an insurance claim. That's the business they're in.
The problem with widely different rates depending on risk is that it makes insurance less attractive.
If, as the insurance companies seem to want, they can calculate the risk very accurately and set the premium accordingly, so every customer pays in more than they get paid out, then customers will be better off putting the money in a savings account and taking up a loan if an accident happens before the savings account is big enough.
The whole insurance principle is based on not knowing. It's gambling. You
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There are some factors I could expect to go on here.
Hotmail popular from late 1990's to the early 2000's. As a free Web Service to check emails. So... Statically we can get the following generalization of the person.
These are GENERALIZATIONS they are expectation.
1. Their age: The Hotmail user is probably over 40 years of age. Being the service is over 20 years old, and most people getting into it, do so in around their 20's or Later, possibly in their late teens. (Only an unpopular geek (at the time) woul
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I have a Hotmail address. It's the one I give out when ordering stuff and to businesses that ask for one. I expect it to get spammed. ...and a work email for work stuff ...and an email provided by my ISP, which I hardly ever use.
I have a gmail address for personal stuff
(and four or five throw-away email accounts for stuff I don't want connected with me)
I'm not sure why any of these addresses show me to be more or less likely to make an insurance claim. Thankfully, my insurance company doesn't have my emai
Re:WTF!? (Score:5, Funny)
What other metrics could the browser measure to determine your risk as a drive?
- Running Windows XP
- Browsing with IE6
- Referrer header is xhamster.com
- Mouse cursor judders around due to shaky hands
- Enters name and address in all lower/uppercase
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It could well be that the sort of person who doesn't bother to maintain their computer is the sort of person who doesn't bother to maintain their car, and therefore does indeed have a greater likelihood of getting into an accident, or having an accident be more costly.
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I think the country has their head up and locked. I tried to register for the Times so I could read TFA. They told me to enter a valid email address. Their form wouldn't accept my .net address as valid.
if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:5, Informative)
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Now do the same based on gender, race or religion... sit back and eat popcorn.
Re:if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:5, Insightful)
It is fair and just to charge young men more for car insurance, it's just actuarial reality.
It is evil and wrong to charge young women more for health insurance, actuaries are sexists.
I thought this had been long covered...
Re:if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullshit. Gender affects risk, but can only be used to charge men more.
Explain why in life insurance it's OK to use gender (to charge men more)?
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Health insurance and car insurance are very different, because there is no "driving safe" or "not driving" that will prevent you from getting sick. But of course you know that. You're just a troll. Sad!
That is completely untrue. Certain ages, sexes and probably even races participate in activities that may cause more bodily injuries or other health concerns than what others do. Statistics isn't racist, it's just a probability, and they have to charge on the likelihood that something will happen so they can have the money to pay out if it does happen.
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When I can change gender and race at whim by signing up with a new one, you have a case.
Religion... ok, I give you that one.
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Gender, check.
Race, One negroplasty please.
Do dolphins get insurance discounts?
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If the actuarial prediction is accurate, it's accurate. Doesn't matter if you think it's fair.
Re: if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:2)
I didn't make a blanket statement, Mr Engrish. I said they do, I did not say they all do.
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At first glance I feel like this is horrible and unfair, but if they ran the numbers and for some reason hotmail users have more accidents then it's only fair they charge more for hotmail users.
"Some reason" is the key here. What's the causal link between accidents and email domain? It's one thing to say behavior X decreases driver attention therefore car crashes are more likely therefore your rates are going up. But to just hit up customers based on coincidence? Causation really does require correlation but not the other way around.
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They don't need to establish what the causation is, only that there is a reliable correlation. With a reliable correlation, they can predict more accurately who will get in an accident, and that's all that matters.
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Welcome to having a tiny sample size, and hence huge error bars. This doesn't show that there's an issue with using correlations as predictors, it shows that there's an issue with trying to find correlations in tiny sample sizes.
Re: if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:3)
That is only if you're trying to scientifically draw a link between two things for some other intent (I.e.. to treat a disease, or to model the climate.) Financial matters beyond economic decisions don't need this, they just need to be able to make predictions. Investors use similar methodology to try to predict stock prices, and it mostly works.
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It must be the sheer stupidity or cluelessness of hotmail users.
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If all I have to do to reduce the risk of having an automobile accident is change my email addresses then I'm all for it.
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They would have been smarter to target people with Instagram/Snapchat accounts that are more likely to take selfies and pictures while th
This is a bit too random (Score:2)
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So, you want to set prices purely based on that driver's past performance, fair enough. That means you need to find all the premiums you're currently charging people who've had no accidents, average them, and charge that to all those people. Great.
However, for a fair proportion of those drivers who were in low risk categories according to statistical analysis, you've just put their premium up significantly. Those drivers will all go to another insurer who is still doing statistical analysis of risk. Now
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Re: if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just being politically correct. The reality is, certain demographics are just more likely to get into accidents, such as teenagers, and if you as an insurance company just assume that no driving record means perfect driving record, then you're either going to be insolvent or you're going to have to raise everybody else's rates.
The mathematics here are amoral.
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charge people who get in more accidents higher premiums
They do, which is why if you have an accident that isn't your fault you often find your premium goes up. You can then charge this increase to the at-fault party, although their insurance company will likely resist.
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You can also sue the at fault insurer (typically in small claims) for diminished resale value. A wrecked and fixed car is worth less than an unwrecked car.
In America you will win, but they will make you take them to court. The insurance companies don't want people to know this is possible.
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You can also sue the at fault insurer (typically in small claims) for diminished resale value. A wrecked and fixed car is worth less than an unwrecked car.
In America you will win, but they will make you take them to court. The insurance companies don't want people to know this is possible.
Depends on the company. Mine sends me a dimished value claim form to make a claim.
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A lot of US states specifically ban reclaiming loss of resale value. Corruption through-and-through.
Re:if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:5, Funny)
Or, they could just... you know, charge people who get in more accidents higher premiums. Just a thought.
Life insurance should work the same way. They should only charge more to people that die.
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Which they already do..
If you've recently made any claims your insurance premiums will be MUCH higher (and you are required to disclose this information)...
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They do that too... In two ways. One, they increase the premiums for people who have accident claims, but additionally, they offer discounts for people who have had a history of not getting into accidents. When get auto insurance for the first time, you are always going to come in at the baseline for your demographic, which is reflective of the number of claims and the cost of those claims by people with assorted factors in common with yourself (although this is the first time I've ever heard of them u
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Yes, but they *also* incorporate other statistical analyses into determining your premium. Common ones that predict higher claim rates include:
Are you male (illegal in the UK now, but was a good predictor) ...
Are you under 25
Do you live in certain areas
Do you drive a modified car
Do you drive a cheap car with a powerful engine
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No one asserted that there's a causation here. They only asserted that there's a reliable correlation, which can be used as a predictor.
Re: if they have more accidents then that's fair (Score:2)
You're not buying anything; auto insurance is a legal requirement which currently exists primarily to ensure that innocent parties will be covered for their losses.
Of course they can never predict how much you're going to cost them because your costs aren't necessarily dictated only by you. If tomorrow you get t-boned by an uninsured driver who ran a red light, there's not much you could have done to avoid that accident. They still have to pay for your losses, so you're "costing" them even though you did
What about Yahoo! (Score:3)
Did the insurance company dismiss applications made by users of Yahoo! email on account of being mentally unfit?
Article Locked/Apply to all Microsoft Products? (Score:2)
As I'm writing this, I can't read the whole article unless I give my contact information so I'm going to wait for somebody to post another link.
I'd love to see the analysis behind the rate increase for HotMail users - I'm guessing there are other factors that come into play that causes them to use HotMail (maybe an extra/missing chromosome?). Personally, I don't know of anybody I currently correspond with who use HotMail (checked my contact lists) but maybe this is something that is different between North
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Could it say something about people who use Microsoft products?
This.
They are already overpaying for second rate crap.
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I think their junk mail scanning is pretty good, I check my inbox maybe twice per week and I usually have less than 10 unread emails. Not bad for a hotmail account that has been active for approximately 25 years. I haven't used it for personal communication in around 20 years.
Maybe Hotmail Users Email while Driving? (Score:2)
Could there be a lot of Hotmail users, who have been thrown through the windshield from an accident, that have been found still clutching their phones with a half finished email?
If that's the case, then I don't have any issues with them getting higher insurance rates.
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Could there be a lot of Hotmail users, who have been thrown through the windshield from an accident, that have been found still clutching their phones with a half finished email?
If that's the case, then I don't have any issues with them getting higher insurance rates.
They claim they use hundreds of metrics to determine insurance rates. Just how far down that rabbit hole are you willing to allow them to go in order to justify gouging the consumer? Sexual orientation? Eye color? DNA sampling?
Hilarious (Score:2)
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Take it a step further. Have an email address for every company you deal with (password safes make it easily manageable). That way you can actually see which companies sell your address and to whom and when. It's actually pretty fun to see which are the worst offenders.
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Do you know a password manager that will automagically signup for new throwaway emails? (I'll do the captcha if needed)
That would be a useful feature.
Could it cost more to deal with Hotmail email? (Score:2)
I'm trying to think of why that's the case - maybe more Hotmail accounts are used as source addresses for spam and more effort is required to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I tried to search on this but couldn't find any current articles/references commenting on this.
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the cost of doing quotes for all those fake hotmail accounts that people are explaining above? :)
Before Comdex exploded, conventioneers were complaining that the casinos were gouging them on room rates, which were higher than other times of year.
No, they weren't;t coughing. Aside from the fact that *every* hotel charges by demand for that day/week, in this case, the casinos were *not* trying to get higher room rates for them. Rather, they were trying to keep those folks away, as they (as a group) neither
black box (Score:2)
As long as they hide the criteria in a block box and call it "AI", they should be fine?
I mean we "don't know" why AI makes the decisions it does, right?
Thiny veiled age discrimmination? (Score:3)
Who has a hotmail account? Who would create a hotmail account. Older people have them, of course. I would suggest that even older people might have an aol.com account.
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> Who would create a hotmail account.
For me, it depends. If it's for something I anticipate using on an ongoing basis, I have a 'commercial email' email account on my own server and I just add another alias to it (so I know which company sold me out when I start getting spammed).
If it's a one-off, I use a Hotmail throw-away and let Microsoft deal with the spam.
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This.
The actuaries have the database team do a sort of cartesian product across a bunch of data (location, distance to work, type of vehicle, age (of driver and vehicle), driving/ticket history, income, apparently email address, etc.) to look for patterns.
I could easily see over 100 variables going into pricing.
For the record, actuarial education.
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MSN Messenger was really big in the UK particularly with under 12s - messenger was the chat app of choice. My 19 year old and 11 year old have hotmail addresses for that reason. Don't forget the xbox factor as well. That was cut in 2013 so there are still a lot of 18-30 somethings using hotmail addresses. Older people with fixed lines (and stability) tend to use ISP given addresses or their work accounts. Not the defacto e-mail address they ended up using from playing games or chatting with friends.
So
Umm... (Score:5, Informative)
Thiny veiled age discrimmination
You do know that age is already a factor in calculating insurance prices, right?
Must be some AI behind this (Score:2)
AOL (Score:5, Funny)
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Hate to think how much more they'd charge someone with an AOL email address, then.
They're all probably over 60 and not driving much anyway.
Time to buy a new domain name... (Score:2)
"Admiral said that hundreds of factors were used by underwriters in setting car insurance..."
Apparently hundreds wasn't enough to avoid fucking over customers with an email address.
Time to go see if FuckYouAdmiral.com is available, for email correspondence of course.
Can't believe this isn't illegal. This is like a gas station charging red cars 10 cents more per gallon.
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Can't believe this isn't illegal. This is like a gas station charging red cars 10 cents more per gallon.
No it's not. An insurance company's costs are tied to risk. Higher risk customers cost them more. So either they run the numbers and charge people based on their risk, or they don't run the numbers and charge everyone equivalently and the low-risk people are subsidizing the high-risk people. They've run the numbers, and it's come out that Hotmail users are higher risk.
A gas station's costs are in no way tied to the colour of a car, and would be no basis upon which to charge different prices.
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Can't believe this isn't illegal. This is like a gas station charging red cars 10 cents more per gallon.
No it's not. An insurance company's costs are tied to risk. Higher risk customers cost them more. So either they run the numbers and charge people based on their risk, or they don't run the numbers and charge everyone equivalently and the low-risk people are subsidizing the high-risk people. They've run the numbers, and it's come out that Hotmail users are higher risk.
Oh, they've run the numbers? Nothing like hiring your own auditor. They are using hundreds of metrics, and yet an email address is suddenly deemed a valid one? This opens up an endless rabbit hole of relentless greed. Their parent company touts a 48% increase of revenue over the last 5 years raking in over 7 billion, so let's stop bullshitting about costs as if they're hurting. This isn't about charging certain customers less; this is about gouging customers for more.
How far are you willing to let the
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How far are you willing to let them go to tie your wallet to their risk? If they determined that sexual orientation was a risk factor, should they be allowed to charge more for the LGBTQ+ crowd? How about eye color? DNA screening? Discrimination, or merely risk mitigation?
I think it's entirely possible to draw a line in the sand where it makes sense for costs to be spread around collectively. Drawing the line at protected groups seems like a pretty good place to start. No need to invoke the slippery slope argument.
As an aside, my province banned the use of gender (and maybe age, I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure) in setting insurance rates. It was great for me at the time (a 17-year-old male), but in general it sucked for everyone else because their premiums went up to c
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Their parent company touts a 48% increase of revenue over the last 5 years.
I wouldn't be surprised if that has more to do with financial markets than premiums. Insurance companies are highly invested in securities. Five years ago happens to be the end of the Great Recession.
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(No, it's a myth [insurance.com])
As compared to...? (Score:2)
Let's ignore the obvious correlation is not causation argument for a brief moment, and skip to the other major plot hole in this story: To whom are they comparing these reckless Hotmail.com users? What e-mail service represents a lower incidence of automotive accidents?
Reading below the fold in that article (which requires registration -- but not confirmation of that registration, so any fake e-mail address will do fine) seems to reveal that this was a simple a|b study, comparing Hotmail.com users to Gmail.
C'mon, look at who they target (Score:2)
Insurance business model (Score:2)
Hotmail is a Microsoft product... (Score:2)
...and they heard Microsoft crashes more? Badabump.
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...and they heard Microsoft crashes more? Badabump.
Yes. iCloud.com users get a discount, with Mac.com getting an extra one do to their advanced age.
actuarial reality or prejudice ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Statistics have no greater financial significance than in insurance. Anal-ists pour over the numbers and draw conclusions that can make or break a company. Your age, origin, location, marriage status and more can put you in a category of higher or lower risk. But there are considerations more surprising than you see in TFS...
A major US insurance company offered low cost premiums to 'qualified' drivers. Many of the qualifications were publicly available, but there were some that were never spoken of. One of these secret rules given to agents was that any prospective client wearing boots was to be disqualified. Agents didn't know why this rule, but had to follow it.
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hotmail.com is more affluent?
Maybe they're just older, as they give out 'live.com' these days, I thought.
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Well, there's nothing wrong with that, other than it appears that that attitude correlates strongly with higher car accident rates. It's worthy of higher rates exactly because there's a correlation that lets the insurance company predict that you'll cost them more if you exhibit that behavioral pattern.
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What if someone has *no* driving record because they haven't driven before?
That means they have no history of either safe or unsafe driving, but also they have no experience of actually driving.
Also car insurance is not just about driving, it also covers the car when it's not being driven - eg against theft, or someone hitting it while its parked etc so the location the car spends most of its time can have an affect on the likelihood of it being stolen or vandalised.