How Your Returns Are Used Against You At Best Buy, Other Retailers (nbcnews.com) 201
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Wall Street Journal (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source): At Best Buy, returning too many items within a short time can hurt a person's score, as can returning high-theft items such as digital cameras. Every time shoppers returns purchases to Best Buy, they are tracked by a company which has the power to override the store's touted policy and refuse to refund their money. That is because the electronics giant is one of several chains that have hired a service called The Retail Equation to score customers' shopping behavior and impose limits on the amount of merchandise they can return. Stores have long used generous return guidelines to lure more customers, but such policies also invite abuse. Retailers estimate 11% of their sales are returned, and of those, 11% are likely fraudulent returns, according to a 2017 survey of 63 retailers by the National Retail Federation. Return fraud or abuse occurs when customers exploit the return process, such as requesting a refund for items they have used, stolen or bought somewhere else.
Amazon.com Inc. and other online players that have made it easy to return items have changed consumer expectations, adding pressure on brick-and-mortar chains. Some retailers monitor return fraud in-house, but Best Buy and others pay The Retail Equation to track and score each customer's return behavior for both in-store and online purchases. The service also works with Home Depot, J.C. Penney, Sephora and Victoria's Secret. Some retailers use the system only to assess returns made without a receipt. Best Buy uses The Retail Equation to assess all returns, even those made with a receipt.
Amazon.com Inc. and other online players that have made it easy to return items have changed consumer expectations, adding pressure on brick-and-mortar chains. Some retailers monitor return fraud in-house, but Best Buy and others pay The Retail Equation to track and score each customer's return behavior for both in-store and online purchases. The service also works with Home Depot, J.C. Penney, Sephora and Victoria's Secret. Some retailers use the system only to assess returns made without a receipt. Best Buy uses The Retail Equation to assess all returns, even those made with a receipt.
charge back when best buy fails will change there (Score:2)
charge back when best buy fails will change there ways
Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:4, Informative)
Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:4, Insightful)
A charge back because a store refused to abide by their printed and posted policies is a valid reason for a charge back. I can tell you that American Express fully supports this as long as you show what the store policy is and that you attempted to return in good faith within the terms of the store policy.
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Except that doesn't happen.
When you get flagged by TRE, the retailer tells you this is the last return they'll accept from you for X amount of time, and you're given a number to check on the TRE site that lists your returns and your status in the system. If you have beef with any of it, you can bitch at TRE (and they'll ignore you / laugh at you).
Future returns will not be covered by policy, you'd have to get lucky and get a manager to approve and override. (They can't actually override the TRE piece, but
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Depends on what constitutes abuse. If I buy a camera and test drive it for a week, then decide I want to return it, is that fraud? The way this article reads, the retailer wants the sale to stand regardless of how I may feel. If they are willing to go to court to go around their policy, it just makes me not want to but from there.
The system tracks patterns to find serial abusers who buy things with the intention of returning them later. For example, someone will buy one in store and one online (Amazon, eBay) for a cheaper price, then return the online item to Best Buy once it's delivered to them. Or scalpers who buy a ton of X item and resell it at inflated prices, then once the market for that item dies they return their unsold stock to the retailer.
When you get flagged by TRE as being a serial returner, you are told by the merch
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Pretty much ANYTHING is a valid reason for a chargeback, as long as you've made an attempt to resolve the issue, the CC company has a list and refusal to refund IS specifically listed.
The best thing that Best Buy can do with this list, besides inserting it in their corporate rectums is actually refuse purchases using this list, they're not required to sell to everyone, although such list could also bite back (hey there's an awful lot of black people on that list, that's racism, good luck in court Best Buy).
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Pretty much ANYTHING is a valid reason for a chargeback, as long as you've made an attempt to resolve the issue, the CC company has a list and refusal to refund IS specifically listed.
A reason to open one, sure. A reason to prevail? Nope. Your credit card issuer will contact the payment processor on record and get in touch with an actual human at the retailer and tell them about the dispute and they have X days to respond and contest. If they contest, the credit card company won't willy-nilly side with the buyer. They look at the details of the transaction and the dispute and if it's too messy they'll wash their hands of it and you'll have to go to court. If it's not too messy, they
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Indeed it is. Which is why you're a moron to compare it to someone who paid money for a product and is trying to get money in a return for said product.
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Indeed it is. Which is why you're a moron to compare it to someone who paid money for a product and is trying to get money in a return for said product.
If someone is abusing the system of returns and returning something that they have used and not in good faith purchased in the first place (always intending to return- as a large number of returns indicate) then they are committing fraud themselves.
I fully support stores implementing these rules as long as there is plenty of wriggle-room for legitimate returns.
They guy who buys a suit, wears it to a wedding and then returns it... then buys a big screen TV to watch the super bowl and then returns it afterwar
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Returns are a cost of doing business - and consumer protection laws in civilized countries. Barring mind-reading powers (which would be creepy AF anyway) there's no way to know if the guy returning the purchased tux is a cheapass avoiding a rental fee, or if the pants really did ride up in the crotch. And as prices are always set to maximize revenue, the "Best Buy rental program" doesn't cost you the consumer a dime. BB could magically eliminate it entirely (and shoplifting, and employees "forgetting" to
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Returns are a cost of doing business - and consumer protection laws in civilized countries. Barring mind-reading powers (which would be creepy AF anyway) there's no way to know if the guy returning the purchased tux is a cheapass avoiding a rental fee, or if the pants really did ride up in the crotch. And as prices are always set to maximize revenue, the "Best Buy rental program" doesn't cost you the consumer a dime. BB could magically eliminate it entirely (and shoplifting, and employees "forgetting" to ring up each others purchases) and you wouldn't see prices go down by a nickel.
So you're saying if stores reduce returns from "11%" to "5%" you DON'T think their costs will go down? Disagree with you there. It might not make a huge difference, but stores that compete on prices lower their prices as much as they can to still maintain a profit - retail runs on very low profit per item- they rely on volume to make profit- volume increases by getting prices as low as possible.
If fraudulent returns weren't costing them money they wouldn't care about fraudulent returns. Fraudulent ret
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Oh, their costs may certainly go down, but not your cost as a consumer - they will simply pocket the difference. Which is the idea in the first place.
Prices are determined by the what the market will bear, not what the cost is for the business.
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Ah, a corporatist with a grotesque sense of entitlement. Still, nothing wrong with you that ten years of honest labor wouldn't fix. They even have camps for that.
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Nope, both VISA and MasterCard have official rules for ALL their brand cards. It's the deal you take when you agree to accept MC/Visa cards as a merchant.
Obviously they can sue, unless the merchant has already gone through a binding arbitration with the CC. Typically though as a merchant, it's your loss unless you can prove fraud and in small claims showing up with an army of lawyers typically is not very pleasing to the judge.
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I had a T-Mobil SIM card and a month's worth of service which I asked the retail associate would work with my Nexus 5 phone. They told me it would. There was no "all sales final" posted near the register or on the merchandise (there is on Verizon's stuff). It didn't work on Google Voice and the store wouldn't give me a refund.
When I did the charge back, I explained I was "refusing acceptance of the sale" which is a specific legal criteria you can use to void a commercial sale. This is very different fro
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Once the optional step of goods being inspected, delivery is accepted by the buyer and payment is made (which is understood to happen concurrent
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All states (except Louisiana) have merchant-ability laws that override any in store policies. These state laws vary on the state, but the basics of each one are mostly the same: If a product is sold as being able to do X, then it must do X. If it doesn't do X, then the buyer is entitled to return the product, regardless of what the return policies are.
For example, let's say there is a store selling sheets. Their return policy says "no returns on sheets once they are used", which is pretty typical. Thro
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Depends on the reason (Score:3)
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Refusal to give a refund is not generally a valid reason for a CC chargeback. For one thing, you still have the merchandise you paid for.
Most reputable credit card companies will issue the chargeback and have you send in the product to them.
Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why we can't have nice things (policies). If someone's purchase doesn't meet their legitimate, reasonable expectations, fine, return it. But there are many who know up front that they'll be returning it later, or expect to go through multiple returns so they can cherry pick the best of the best. Fuck 'em. Such abuse only ends up costing everyone else more, and I have an issue with funding reprobates.
Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the problem with big companies. There is no respect from either side.
Big companies don't care about you, and in return people don't care about the well being of the company. The gap is so large that executives forget that customers and low rank employees are people not just profit making machines. And in return, customers who abuse the system don't seem to realize that by doing that, they hurt the small people (like other customers and employees) more than executives.
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Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:4, Interesting)
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Back in the 1970s, for a while Target had a policy that so long as it was an item Target carried, you could return it to Target for a refund -- no matter where you bought it, because they figured they could just put it on the shelf and resell it. Needless to say this didn't last very long.
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They must have started doing it again, then, because I did use it once (unwanted gift and Target actually had what I wanted, but it cost a little more, so I walked out the door poorer than I went in) but very shortly thereafter started requiring receipts.
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Fuck Serial Returners (Score:2)
Not to mention many of us can barely be fucked to return an actually broken item. The hell of standing behind these assholes in line and then jumping through all the hoops put up to block their abusive behavior is just not worth it for me. Do I have the original credit card, do I have the receipt? Is the warranty card in the box? Aw jesus fuck unless you do this regularly you don't even know if you'll successfully return the piece of shit when it's finally your turn at the counter!!
I also hate people who
Re:charge back when best buy fails will change the (Score:4, Insightful)
To quote the GP, your purchase didn't meet your legitimate, reasonable expectations by having dead pixels. The return/exchange was fair.
Re: charge back when best buy fails will change th (Score:2)
Yup, same here. Not as much as you but 5-10K for a new building I was working on and they wouldn't return $70 worth of cables. I can get decent service online, so now I do.
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I dunno about anyone else (Score:5, Insightful)
I always assumed this was the case? And it's not really unreasonable is it? Like, some people are going to take the piss, and it's not ridiculous that the company would keep track of customers that are causing them costs.
I'm the last person to be an apologist for big business, but this seems fairly reasonable to me...
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If denied, request a Return Activity Report (Score:3)
It IS a credit reporting system because data may be shared across retailers. If this is the case you absolutely have the right to view and send a written request for review al
According The Retail Equation's page to request a Return Activity Report [theretailequation.com], retailers using the service are supposed to give a transaction ID when they refuse a return.
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The problem is that I don't want to know that I can't return it when I go to return it. If the retailer isn't going to take it back then run the checks when I go to buy the item(s) and inform me at the time of purchase. Then I'll make the decision to buy it or not based on the fact that I can't return it. But as things stand I'm making a purchase, a contract, with the understanding that I can return the item according to the store policy. The store should not be able to change that policy when I go to make
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Sounds like you wasted your own time more than anything.
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Online is losing money hand over fist (Score:3)
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In Europe returns have to be free, except for postage in cases where there is nothing wrong with the item. If there is something wrong with it then the retailer pays postage as well. It's the law.
Overall it's a good thing. It protects consumers from being fleeced by things not matching the description or high shipping costs discouraging them from returning faulty items. Even when the item isn't faulty, the basic idea is that the consumer should have an opportunity to inspect it in person and reject it.
Anoth
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>Another useful protection is that you don't have to return faulty items in
>original packaging. Some retailers used to screw people that way,
>especially with packaging that can't be opened without destroying it.
Back in another century, I got a great deal as a developer: Ehman sold me a 17" B&W monitor, with a staggering 1024x768 resolution, for just $600 including controller, instead of $900.
Eventually it had a problem, and I called. "Oh, just stuff it in its box and send it back."
OK, aside f
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Us retail 4.5% profit last quarter. (Score:3)
Last quarter Amazon's US retail operating profit was 4.5%.
Not bad for mass-produced merchandising. (Compare Walmart at 3.28%)
DogDude simply spoke without knowing what he was talking about, talking out of his ass. We all do that sometimes.
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"How Your Returns Are Used Against You" (Score:5, Insightful)
So, basically, if you try to take advantage of the system, they'll call you on it. Not seeing the problem here. Sounds like someone trying to manufacture outrage as though the stores are trying to screw you over, but it sounds like they're just trying to protect themselves against a somewhat common type of fraud.
Or am I wrong here? If so, maybe someone can explain. I rarely shop retail these days, and I rarely return items.
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As anyone who has ever worked retail will tell you, there are a lot of entitled assholes who over estimate their own cleverness. People will try to return a rusty grill they've gotten years of good use out of, and then get angry when the poor schmuck at the register expresses skepticism that they bought it last week. charred burger remains and all (regrettably, that's not a made up example).
Problem is, plan B for these societal dregs is to throw a temper tantrum in the middle of the store in the hopes that
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And what's objectively wrong with their position? If the store will give you a refund if you do a song-and-dance, why not! It's the capitalist way.
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It reminds me of when I used to pay for some items by check and I had a check declined. I'd never bounced a check, and I had more than enough money in my bank account to cover the purchase. I asked why and was referred to Telecheck. I didn't realize that check purchases were being tracked, and I did a bit of online searching. Then I called up the store for more information and the manager indicated I should actually call a different company who was responsible instead of Telecheck. They declined the ch
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If that happens, leave the item in the store (with proof if you can) and do a chargeback and let the CC company negotiate with the business as to whether they are being reasonable. If you do too many of *those*, then you'd have a problem. The CC companies already do act as a check against businesses trying to screw you and not following their own policies, I don't expect that to change as it's not in their interest.
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Well, I for one have exactly zero confidence this won't eventually (if not currently) be used to deny entirely legitimate returns as they push harder to reduce costs-- eventually that will result in increasing improper denials. "Oh sorry, you've exceeded your return quota of 1 item every 3 months, so this must be fraudulent as that's excessive."
I doubt that. I agree with the OP, that this is an attempt to stir up outrage for clicks. The stores have an incentive to keep fairly open return policies, as such policies are in high demand. Companies only have liberal return policies because they're attractive to customers, not because they have to. The challenge is to draw a line where the return policy doesn't make the store victimized by crime and fraud. The fact that practically no one has heard of this system reflects on how rarely it flags people (
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Well, I for one have exactly zero confidence this won't eventually (if not currently) be used to deny entirely legitimate returns as they push harder to reduce costs-- eventually that will result in increasing improper denials. "Oh sorry, you've exceeded your return quota of 1 item every 3 months, so this must be fraudulent as that's excessive."
Stores don't want to go too far because then they will lose customers to other stores that don't have such policies. It's a fine line stores have to walk. They want to catch people abusing the system (because they don't make a profit from them) but they want to keep customers who they do make a profit from.
If you don't abuse returns, I doubt you'll ever have anything to worry about. Remember- 30-40 years ago a lot of stores did not have such generous return policies as they do now. Stores had to adapt b
Re:"How Your Returns Are Used Against You" (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is not taking advantage of the system, the problem is that many people are unaware of their rights and these lists are typically turned abusive rather than stopping actual 'fraud'. It's easy to end up on the list because you returned a number of high value items and you otherwise don't frequent the retailers for high value items.
On the other hand you can always initiate a chargeback on your credit card. AutoZone once attempted to refuse me a refund. Sold me a set of wipers where one wouldn't fit and they wouldn't take it back because "store policy" (I opened the package and only then noticed that they sold me the wrong length for one side). I told the manager: sure, I'll just contact my credit card company and get the purchase voided. Instantly changed their tune.
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It's based on a number of factors. How much you buy, how often you buy, how often you return and what you return. If you're constantly returning stuff, yes you'll end up
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This has two edges, though . . .
I have no serious doubts that Lowe's' computers have noticed my return patterns, and the frequency.
But it's high returns in the pattern they want: buying a safety margin on products knowing I can bring back the extras.
Frankly I suspect that I could return past the period, etc., moreso than without the history . . . they *know* I'll be back soon for another gaggle of stuff.
hawk
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The problem is that people have gotten on the list for returning a single item or having the clerk screw up a return on their order. This system has been going on for at least half a decade.
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well if you get stuffed with 3 bad items in a row you're stuck with it.
despite the policy.
despite the items actually having been bad.
they score that or not? item actually having been bad? if yes, then sure, why not, bb could do that internally too. but they're denying returns anyways if they feel like it and their quota needs it. that's the real problem with customer service these days.. damn quotas.
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> well if you get stuffed with 3 bad items in a row you're stuck with it.
The last days of the VCR . . . the things had gone *so* mass-produced that even the major brands were sketchy.
I don't buy "product assurance", but for my last VCR, I simply accepted the price of the object +$20 as the two-year cost of having some VCR or another.
If memory serves, it was the first one that died as the tracking failed and went out of range. The one they replaced it with died following the tracking playing the tape it
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> Or -- a guy lied to the reporter about what he actually did.
>Both are plausible.
As a former criminal defense attorney, I can assure you that no-one *ever* lies about what they did. No sirreee.
Prisons are full of innocent people, well over 99%. Just ask them. And the ones that pled guilty only did it because their lawyer screwed them. Really. :)
hawk
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There are many sides to this (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone who is super picky, and has a problem with everything they buy, and returns a lot of stuff is a customer to be avoided
If I was a seller, I would blacklist them
Someone who has real problems with stuff not working right should be able to return it
What if you're just tech savvy (Score:2, Interesting)
I also use a Phillips Air Floss. Works great, but the motors die like clockwork ever 12-14 months. I bought the extended warranty and return it to the store. If you don't want
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return whatever they didn't like or didn't fit rather than make the appropriate decisions before the purchase
Yeah, that can be a problem, but there are times it's entirely appropriate. My wife buys most of her work clothing from a retailer that doesn't have a store less than six hours away, because they sell the lines she likes (and that she knows fit well). Trying it on at the store isn't an option. She returns probably half of what she orders, usually the day after it arrives. Maybe they shouldn't want her as a customer, but based on how they treat her, I'd say they're pretty damned enthusiastic about her busine
I think the bigger thing folks are missing (Score:4, Interesting)
TL;DR. We need to consider the effects of large sets of cheaply available consumer data being easily traded among the few retailers that are left.
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Well, you say that figuring out how this can be abused is an exercise for the reader. So, let's see here... Worst case scenario that I can think of: they start selling defective products and refusing to accept returns for them. That's not a new power though, they can do that right now. The reason why they (mostly) don't do this right now is n
How can you return a stolen item? (Score:2)
I would expect that you need at least a receipt and that should usually include the device serial number. Or is there some defect in the way this is done in the US?
Re:How can you return a stolen item? (Score:4, Interesting)
you steal an item from a store. You hang around outside the store, looking for dropped receipts that have your item listed, and usually was not paid for with a credit card (as the store will either refund the card, or only offer store credit), then you take your stolen item and the receipt inside and get your refund.
Or, you hang out in the parking lot looking for a dropped receipt with a big-ticket but small physical size item on it, you go inside, slip the item from the shelf, make your way back to the front of the store and head for the customer service desk and get a refund on the device you didn't even steal since you never left the store! (this is fraud however, still illegal of course).
Or, you steal items at one store location, then go to another store location and try to get a refund without receipt. Then be a complete asshat when they refuse until a manager caves and gives you money cause he's a spineless coward too stupid and scared to do his job properly and call the cops. (this last one is a constant source of irritation to a friend of mine working in retail)
Oh, and no, device serials are not always (or often) printed on purchase receipts in the US. That's why 2 of the above work yet the major US retailers still aren;t doing it.
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Interesting. That would not be possible in any place in Europe I know.
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Some electronics do have a window through the package where you can view/scan the serial number without opening the box. In my experience, stores usually only scan it if the customer is buying an extended warranty.
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I'm a bit surprised they'd do that, honestly. I think the customer expectation is that you need the receipt, but it's also fairly common for stores to accept returns by crediting the credit card that was used for the purchase (after having looked up the purchase from the card number). I've never heard of a cash return without the receipt (and sometimes the receipt has to indicate the purchase was in cash, if it were a CC they'd refund that instead).
If a store refused no-receipt returns for cash I think nobo
Depends on the store... (Score:2)
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Interesting. Thanks for the info. Would not work in any European place I know.
Scanning IDs? (Score:3)
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CAC/PIVs (federal military/civilian IDs) have mag stripes, so maybe the person above is a service member.
The stripe is blank at issue though and is reserved to be optionally encoded for facility access.
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My California driver license has one and a few places will ask me to pull it out of my wallet in order to swipe it. I believe my green card also has one. I never thought of demagnetizing it ... after the Equifax breach I'm not even sure why I would bother.
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Machine Learning Failure? (Score:4, Informative)
It seems the retailer inputs driver's license number and address, or scans the barcode if it has one. That's how one is tracked. Retail return policies generally have a catch-all "we can refuse any refund for any or no reason at our discretion" clause, which is used in this case. It seems The Retail Equation (TRE) presumably uses machine learning fraud-detection systems, like a credit or debit card company uses, only you can't call them to force the transaction through, so you're just stuck with no way out. Given that returns are a cost-center for retailers, this is a 'feature' rather than a bug. Getting flagged means no returns to that store for 365 days, and you only find out after you've bought your merchandise; so if you bought clothes unsure if your spouse likes how they look, or if they'll be comfortable, then you're SOL if not. TRE has been around for several years, their website says 1999, and I found complaints about them online dating back to at least 2011.
TFA gives an anecdote of a guy who was blacklisted from his first return... before he even made it. So he was allowed zero returns from Best Buy before being banned from returns. Apparently, it triggers so rarely that there haven't been enough complaints about false positives to cause retailers to ditch the system. In my experience, customer complaints can cause a company to loosen its return policies to the point of letting pretty-obvious fraud through, although larger companies are probably less likely to care. I guess the moral is, shop at smaller stores if you're not certain you want something, and check the return policy.
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That's nice but it isn't the subject at hand - customers who are trying to return a product but the store doesn't want to return the money in exchange for said product.
Pay cash... (Score:2)
Not Walmart (Score:2)
Recently bought a TV at Walmart and had to return it because the screen was broken out of the box. They refunded that in case and took down zero notes of any kind about who I was. Paid with a card. They refunded me cash.
So I got the same model TV again and eventually returned that one because I didn't like it. Again, they just gave me back my money and took no info.
Walmart USED to ask for ID and all sorts of crap. No more.
Over one in ten sales (Score:2)
TFS says
Retailers estimate 11% of their sales are returned
More than one out of every ten sales are returned? That's not correct.
And, why would they need to *estimate* ?
So is there a market for tech rental? (Score:4, Interesting)
I get the outrage, like everyone else it's hard not to think of this as a blacklist designed to rip off customers and with all the Kafkaesque elements you'd expect from an opaque, privately run blacklist.
That being said, if a big part of this is tech "rental" -- buying an item for limited use and then returning, why not approach this as a business opportunity? Create some business model where people can more or less rent these items (purchase minus restocking fee) and where each iteration of sale-return results in a declining, "open box" selling price?
If this "problem" is big enough that it's worth the pure overhead cost of running a blacklist of abusive consumers, it sounds like there's a way to run to use that overhead instead towards basically renting these items to abusive customers.
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Refuse to sell (Score:2)
Can we do this on Ebay, please? (Score:2)
Seriously, Ebay needs to improve their return policies. There are too many flippers on Ebay these days.
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Great fun for the one that got the returned pair next. You should be ashamed for yourself.
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Ah, ok. Then I retract my statement.
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Re: Great way to defraud customers (Score:2, Funny)
Not only that but he said the next choice away was 1200mi in Seattle. Do maps in Alaska not have Canada on them?