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United States Businesses China Technology

Tech Group Urges US To Recruit Allies To Take on China, Not Tariffs (venturebeat.com) 186

Posted by msmash from the tread-softly dept.
A trade group representing top technology companies on Monday told U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin that it opposes the Trump administration's focus on tariffs to try to change China's unfair trade practices. From a report: The Information Technology Industry Council said in a letter to Mnuchin that it supports the Trump administration's "Section 301" investigation into China's abuses of intellectual property, but instead of tariffs, it advocates a U.S.-led international coalition to put pressure on Beijing. "Our opposition to tariffs is pragmatic. Tariffs do not work," wrote ITIC President and CEO Dean Garfield. "Instead of tariffs, we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition that can challenge China at the World Trade Organization and beyond," Garfield added. "Numerous countries share the United States' concerns about China and its unfair trade practices. The United States is uniquely well-situated to lead that coalition."
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Tech Group Urges US To Recruit Allies To Take on China, Not Tariffs More

Tech Group Urges US To Recruit Allies To Take on China, Not Tariffs

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  • Draw a Red Line in the sand (Score:5, Funny)

    by tomhath ( 637240 ) on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:56PM (#56407341)

    we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition that can challenge China at the World Trade Organization and beyond

    That's worked so well in other places.

    • The World Trade Organization, and all of its trade treaties, are too corrupt to bother with. International terrorist organizations need to be utterly eliminated, whether they work in weapons or financials.

      • Then there's the little fact that China routinely ignores anything the WTO says anyway...

    • Um, the world would like to respond.
      NO, we have interest in this trade war. While Trump has been tearing up treaties the rest of the world has been signing them.
      Going forward, China is viewed as a more important trade partner than the USA.
      The USA is only4% of the worlds population and effectively stagnant, where as Asia is 60%, and in China the middle class is growing...bigly.
      So in the interest of MAGA, USA first, allow us to say...USA last because we don't want to get caught in this shit storm.
      And as

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Koby77 ( 992785 )

        NO, we have interest in this trade war. While Trump has been tearing up treaties the rest of the world has been signing them.

        Spoken like a true elitist. While you have been signing them, your populace has been growing increasingly discontent at having their standard of living thrown away for the benefit of the international financiers. Prepare for more Brexits, Trumps, and M5S's.

        • Well we are unhappy about US corporations doing the dutch sandwich tax shuffle and paying in effect zero taxes on their profits.

          We are also unhappy about the huge protections the US has for its agriculture sector.

          We went through this trauma 20-30 years ago and have more Market freedom than the USA.

          and over all, we are a much happier people than the USA.

          This trader is all about the USA unwilling to recognise it is only 4% of the worlds population and that China will soon (if not already) over take th

  • If they don't work (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 09, 2018 @12:58PM (#56407359)
    then why does China have tariffs on the US? And why was the slashdot hivemind so pro-tariff a couple of years ago?

  • Yeah, whinning is more likely to work (Score:4, Interesting)

    by losfromla ( 1294594 ) on Monday April 09, 2018 @01:16PM (#56407487)

    I absolutely loathe drumPft, everything about him, from his absurd "hairstyle" to his voice, diction, "policies", etc.

    However, I favor sanctions. We should sanction smartly though to protect our high tech manufacturing industries. So we could be a powerhouse like Germany, which protects its industries. China protects its acquisition of technology, why shouldn't we also work to help our industries?

    This "Tech Group" sounds like they favor inaction and ineffective whining because, apparently, they have more to gain by importing Chinese goods than by helping strengthen the American middle class. Damned blood-sucking corporatist vampires.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "I hate absolutely everything about the guy, but I like what he is doing". Overheard on a bus last weekend.

    • I absolutely loathe drumPft, everything about him, from his absurd "hairstyle" to his voice, diction, "policies", etc.

      However, I favor sanctions. We should sanction smartly though to protect our high tech manufacturing industries. So we could be a powerhouse like Germany, which protects its industries. China protects its acquisition of technology, why shouldn't we also work to help our industries?

      This "Tech Group" sounds like they favor inaction and ineffective whining because, apparently, they have more to gain by importing Chinese goods than by helping strengthen the American middle class. Damned blood-sucking corporatist vampires.

      Please explain what you mean by this? Germany is a part of the EU so they have no sanctions against China.

      • They protect their industries by keeping them in-country. This is done because all corporations have an advisory board made up of rank-and-file employees, who clearly have a vested interest in the company remaining and zero in it leaving. I wasn't trying to imply they had sanctions on China, sorry if it read that way.

        • Re: (Score:2, Redundant)

          by Gojira Shipi-Taro ( 465802 )

          But in this case, the horses have already left the barn. Closing the door now will do nothing to help the middle class.

          • Re: Yeah, whinning is more likely to work (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Type44Q ( 1233630 ) on Monday April 09, 2018 @02:46PM (#56408025)
            We should just keep pissing away our wealth in the way of trade imbalances because it's too late to do anything about it.

            Except it clearly isn't, or the Chinese wouldn't be trying so hard to convince us otherwise.

        • They protect their industries by keeping them in-country. This is done because all corporations have an advisory board made up of rank-and-file employees, who clearly have a vested interest in the company remaining and zero in it leaving. I wasn't trying to imply they had sanctions on China, sorry if it read that way.

          Although I believe that works councils are a good idea your claim seem a bit generous as they are advisory boards only and not unique to Germany. Other countries have a legal right to union representation in the governing board, with the same rights as other board members (limited to a minority of the total board obviously). There are also European Works Councils for companies with employees in more than one EU country.

          • I don't know about other countries' particular configurations, I know that in Germany those boards are in-place as per their Constitution. A Constitution that was put in place and dictated primarily by American and Russian generals after defeating the Germans in WW2. I don't recall if these boards are made up of Union members, I know that at a bank, the gardener can be part of the board. Advisory boards are not ignored if that is what you are implying by saying I am being a bit generous. What I get from

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Thing is, China expected this to happen one day and planned according. It made sure that the US couldn't screw China without screwing itself. It made sure it was mutually assured destruction, while at the same time pushing into other markets that the US is ignoring (like Africa) or pissing off (like Europe).

      • The US more or less ignores Africa because our industry got tired of losing their money to kleptocrats. The Chinese will learn too.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          China is building a lot of infrastructure in Africa. It's working very well for them.

          • The building part always works. It's the getting paid part that doesn't. After the infrastructure is built, the Africans will call the Chinese imperialists and deny them whatever contract terms were promised them.

            The Chinese will get burned, same as _everybody_ else did.

            • You do realize that Europeans came and extracted the wealth of these nations while destroying their society and way of life? The only injustice is that these extractors weren't impaled and burned on a pyre as they arrived. I cannot believe that in this day-and-age anyone with two or more working brain cells can even jokingly put forth that the Europeans got a raw deal, FFS!

              • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

                by HornWumpus ( 783565 )

                And yet, the only nation in Africa that isn't a complete shithole is the one where Europeans ruled the longest.

                Even there, the current rulers can't help themselves.

                • Could it be that they ended up shitholes because their resources were extracted with all benefits going to those who stole the land and resources, leaving the natural population impoverished financially and intellectually? They're coming back and feel that they aren't shitholes but it does take a while to dig out when you have been oppressed and impoverished for hundreds of years. Fuck all the European vermin that went and destroyed literally every society and land that they came upon.

            • Re: (Score:3)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              This started 20 years ago, and hasn't happened yet. Is it possible that we were imperialists and this is different?

              • No.

                As the poster notes, so long as the Europeans held the governments they did OK at resource extraction. He's wrong there was any wealth there to begin with. Dirt becomes ore when you have the technology.

                But since then, it's a 100% money pit. Investment/burn cycles run decades.

                De Beers group is about the only one left making money, because they just pay off the dictators. Even that's ending. They were just extracting sunk costs for a century or so.

        • You think the Chinese just gifts money without doing some due diligence?
  • Yeah they've been saying the same thing about China's Currency Policy. The fact is, there's nothing anyone can do to force China to stop manipulating their currency. Same with trade practices. Other than go to the WTO if China is in violation of a trade agreement and then good luck.

    Tariffs do work, ask Japan.

    • China is not manipulating its currency, how exactly would they that anyway?
      Their currency fixed bound to the US$ since ages.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by bongey ( 974911 )
        Angel you are Chinese, if you are a Chinese citizen you aren't even allowed to speak out against your country. For all we know you are propaganda troll working for the Chinese government. Here you are posting on a chinese site https://ask.helplib.com/java/p... [helplib.com] https://whois.icann.org/en/Loo... [icann.org] . I think the Chinese people are smart, hard working people but the Chinese government has been for some time manipulating trade and currency to benefit their own country that has gone too far.
  • when you have an industry to protect. We don't really. Even the Steel industry is almost entirely recycling at this point. We'd have to completely rebuild our manufacturing base. And even if we do Automation means we wouldn't see very many jobs.

    tl;dr; Barn Door's open, animals are gone.

  • What the US needs to do is get together with the UK and a couple of other allies and create an effective 'hacker' team and ddos the crap out of the palace in Beijing. After which we could do the same to the Kremlin, and maybe the entire country of Syria. It is time we started fighting on the third front in the virtual world, We have the technology, we have the personnel and we certainly have cause.

  • Good results so far. (Score:3)

    by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Monday April 09, 2018 @01:28PM (#56407573)

    Should we be working with our allies to combat unfair trading practices? Of course!
    Should we do so in a calm and collected manner? Of course!
    Was the president warned about retaliation a thousand times before the first tariff? Of course!
    Does he think he's smarter than everyone else and nothing can dissuade him from taking the more perilous actions? Of course!

    This is the bed people have made, it's time to sleep in it.

    • Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries. If the cost differen

      • Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries.

        Wow, what an insightful comment!

        If we make everything overseas, it would eliminate US poverty altogether!

        • If we make everything overseas, it would eliminate US poverty altogether!

          We practically do. We make computer chip designs here, as well as software, medicine, and of course infrastructure. We provide services here. We do technology research and engineering here. Most of the stuff we've ever made is now acquired from overseas, except farming.

          Speaking of farming...

          We used to employ 90% of the workers (at 80-100 hour work weeks) as farmers--down to age 13 (or below). We used to put kids in factories for these long hours, too. Child labor. Remember that?

          Through a long ser

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Koby77 ( 992785 )

        Imports reduce the amount of American labor spent on obtaining a thing (i.e. you work 3 hours for American-made pants, 1.86 hours for the same exact quality of Chinese pants, and more than 3 hours for American-made pants at a higher quality, assuming the American manufacturing industry has equivalent or better experience and expertise in manufacturing compared to China). That reduces American poverty and frees up American labor to do things like build great new technology industries. If the cost differential is more than trivial, it net-creates American jobs because moving and selling all those goods also requires labor.

        But then your $25/hr factory job gets shipped overseas and you can only get a $8/hr job as a bartender, and so your standard of living got worse. And then the retail stores don't actually bother to reduce prices at all; only electronics products have gone down in price (imo due to technological advancement). The price on most other items, from durable goods, cars, healthcare, education, childcare, and housing have skyrocketed in recent years while U.S. median wages actually decreased. Most of the Americans

        • then your $25/hr factory job gets shipped overseas and you can only get a $8/hr job as a bartender

          Depends, really. We create more high- and low-paying jobs over time.

          You are attempting to argue on principals of comparative and absolute advantage. These theories only explain that more goods and services might be produced. But they DO NOT EXPLAIN TO WHERE THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED.

          So, pants cost 1.83 hours of minimum-wage labor if made in China and bought by Americans. They cost 3.0 hours of minimum-wage labor if made in America and bought by Americans. That's your answer of to where they are distributed.

          You also have to realize that trade and technology are roughly the same, in this sense: they both reduce the (local) jobs required to produce a thing, and leave your economy to adjust the labor force by spend

    • The first tariff was decades ago. Imposed by China.

      China's got shit to retaliate with. See the trade balance. They can't put in new tariffs, because they've had them all along. Sure, they tariff pork, which is 1% of the value of China's exports. That's just not going to work for them.

      Also: China's banking system continues to be a mess. US treasuries are the quality part of China's banking reserves. Think about that...they _can't_ say no to a central committee members child. Imaging what those loan port

    • The US economy is much less exposed to exports. China is very much exposed. We simply don't have much to lose. China will lose, bigtime. Retaliation hurts us much less than Trump's tariffs hurt China. That's what this is, a big game of chicken to see who will hurt the most. It ain't gonna be America. In fact, by tariffing soybeans, China may well have shot itself in the foot. China is a huge importer of American soybeans. The Chinese people don't take that kind of price increase well.
      • The rest of the world is going to continue to trade with China.
        While Trump has been ripping up trade agreements, China has been making them.
        While Trump has been pissing people off, China has been talking nicely.
        Chinas middle class is growing, the US is stagnant, the US could be locked out of the biggest growth market there is
        China has rare earth materials the US needs, I guess China can stop selling it to the US to balance trade...

        So while the USA places tariffs on things like Aluminium which will o

  • No one in that region other than North Korea is cool with China. For all of the white progressive derping about "American imperialism," it's rather telling ain't it that even Vietnam is seeking to build a real relationship with us. Let that sink in--a country whose northern half we treated about on par with how the Soviets treated Afghanistan--prefers us to China.

    China is colonizing Africa. Look it up if you don't believe me. There are quite a few million Chinese who have moved there in the last few decades

    • The world is going to bitterly regret not standing up to China and aggressively asserting its interests against them.

      So true. That's why I often post about the US looking after its own interests and letting the world go to hell. No reason to waste blood and treasure when it's not appreciated. Secure the borders and focus on getting our house back in order. The US wasn't perfect by any means, but it could have been much worse. China is going to prove just how true that statement is.

    • No one prevents Europeand or americans to move to Africa.

      Sorry, but to say it pluntly: the time that countries have to react on other countries development, even thinking that they need to react, are over. Over long ago. Half the communist regimes on the world are/were there because the US supported the dictors there before some 'revolution' killed them. That the world is slowly dragging itself out of the shithole the USA put us in is a good thing.
      You had 50 years, actually 70 years, chance to depose africa

    • Vietnam is building a relationship based on the same failed hyper-capitalism that globalists are getting hammered for. Wonder where PayLess shoes gets their entire inventory from? Along with most of the lower priced junk at Wallyworld? Vietnam has been where China farms out stuff even China does not want to do. Same slave labor practices, but less known than it's neighbor. As for Africa, China is already learning the hard way that tribalism and regional conflict based on religion is making a mess out o
  • For something that doesn't work, China sure has made good use of them to build the #2 economy in the world. I think it's more like, "they don't maximize GDP but certainly do sacrifice a small part of it to give a better life to our people." To say they don't work is to ignore the big picture in favor of a single metric - GDP growth - by which all is measured.

  • we strongly encourage the administration to build an international coalition

    Has the author of this memo been in a coma for the last two years?

  • If only there was some way we could create some sort of "Cross Pacific Collaboration"; a coordinated block of pacific countries with free trade agreements and aligned tariff rules. That would be an amazing way to counter China. Too bad nothing like that was ever negotiated...

  • China already losing, soybeans bought by Europe. (Score:4, Informative)

    by bongey ( 974911 ) on Monday April 09, 2018 @02:52PM (#56408053)
    China add tariffs to US soybeans has done nothing but harm China. Europe bought up all beans China would have been buying. LOL https://www.reuters.com/articl... [reuters.com]
    • Yeah, because win/loss is determined by one single factor...

  • I think that this whole tariff circus misunderstands the economic relationship between the US and China. US corporations have exported much of their manufacturing to China, which offers poorer working conditions, more human rights violations, a sufficiently skilled workforce, and good transport infrastructure. These conditions help to drive down the cost of manufacturing and ensure a robust and reliable supply chain for the US market.

    This arrangement is of enormous benefit and profit to US corporations. Unf

  • Seriously, it is long past time for WTO to do the right thing and tell China to quit cheating. They continue to manipulate their money, subsidize and dump on the market. And worst of all, China is now destroying 3rd world nations. Venezuela is a good example. And nation that China works with, comes at a very high costs in the future.
  • All of this was predicted in the early 90s when trade started to be liberalised. Free Trade doesn't work unless the countries trading are of equal or near equal standards of living. Otherwise the richer countries are outsourcing their wealth/jobs to poorer countries in exchange for more lax environmental/worker protections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

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