Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada (bloomberg.com) 330
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via Bloomberg: The H-1B was created in 1990, part of an immigration overhaul signed into law by President George H.W. Bush that also created the EB-5 investor visa -- the subject of a fracas involving Kushner Cos. seeking Chinese investment -- and the diversity lottery, which Trump has attacked. Today, an estimated half a million H-1B holders live in the U.S. No one tracks exactly how many ditch their skilled visas for the permanent residency Canada offers, but during the first year of Trump's presidency, the number of tech professionals globally who got permanent residency in Canada ticked up almost 40 percent from 2016, to more than 11,000.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
I've always been confused by this (Score:5, Informative)
One thing I can say: Companies stopped training once they could rely on the H1-B visa program. One more thing, I know two or three people who were laid off and replaced by H1-Bs, which is supposed to be illegal.
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The 85k number is NEW per year. They can stay for 7 years before they have to renew. I know several that are coming up on 10+ years. That is how you get to the several million. The current system depending on which country you are from it can take many years just to get the green card then a few more to convert. One guy I know did it all in 4 years. He was not from india. Another guy who sits next to him is coming up on 9 years trying to get a green card. Another guy I knew spent 3 years trying to g
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There's a correlation vs causation issue going on here. Companies didn't stop training because of H1-B's; they stopped training because higher numbers of college degrees floating around turned a ton of industries into Employer's Markets. H1-B's sped the process up, but this shit started before that. We have flooded job markets, few alternatives like manufacturing, and executives insist on boosting stock and getting their raises no matter what.
End result is a lot of qualified people competing for the same
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Isn't Canada also in America?
No, Canada is in North America, or if one wants to refer to the superset continent, Canda is in the Americas. Not America, which is an alternate way of saying 'the US'.
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From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
In some countries of the world (including France, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Greece, and the countries of Latin America), America is considered a continent encompassing the North America and South America subcontinents,[23][24] as well as Central America.[25][26][27][28][29]
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And even more often, right.
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Both sides of can play the same game [merriam-webster.com]
Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll probably be modded down into oblivion for having a contrary opinion but I wish the USA would just get it over and annex Canada and Mexico already. Once people get over the knee-jerk reaction and actually think about what this would mean
Unless you get their permission first (and you can't), what it would mean is war on at least two fronts, and probably more. Even assuming the USA can beat both countries militarily (and then occupy them successfully, despite a complete lack of moral legitimacy), it's unlikely the rest of the world would stand for the USA going full-Lebensraum on its neighbors and allies.
At the very least, it would be extremely destabilizing, since every other major country would take it as signalling "open season" on their neighbors. Any semblance of diplomatic infrastructure more refined than "me want, me stronger, me take" would be destroyed for the forseeable future.
It's unlikely the benefits of "a unified currency" would outweigh the drawbacks of "endless war".
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Re: But... (Score:2)
You kidding me?
Canadians would roll over and apologize to any invading American forces. The type of people who would put up a fight are the guys who live up in the bush. Fought with a bunch of them in Iraq.
Then again, put them in charge and they'd probably welcome not having to watch their country get ruined by idiots like Trudeau.
You'd have a real insurgency by cartel forces down in Mexico. The only way to win there would be out right genocide.
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...having a unified currency, logistics, roads, units, language, military, border, etc. would provide numerous long term benefits...
Which units? US or SI?
Which language? English, French, or Spanish?
...(Some) Americans are pretty hypocritical about immigration considering they hijacked the land from the native Americans...
There's also the fact that about 99% of their ancestors were... that's right... immigrants.
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> Which units? US or SI?
What a concept! Nah, that would never work
> Which language? English, French, or Spanish?
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..., while they complain endlessly when they see a mere fraction of the immigrants America sees annually.
Somewhere above someone posted figures showing Canada has double the annual per capita immigration rate than does the US (1% vs 0.5% respectively). However, they misstated the Canadian population as 30 million vs. the actual number of 36.3 million, so the actual immigration rates are closer.
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Well, depending on the situation we have either a Governor General or the queen. The GG is "viceregal in absentia" so they (as an office) cease to exist when the monarch is present.
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Re:But... (Score:4, Funny)
That sounds like the beginning of a joke.
Not a choice... (Score:3)
Brain Drain is coming (Score:5, Interesting)
My company does power and HVAC systems engineering for buildings. There is and has been a significant shortage of people in this field over the years (it has always paid less than high-tech and finance, and to really succeed you need the same personality and skill sets). You can't just increase pay, because the fees you can receive do not support paying someone straight out of college $85k/year, plus dedicating significant resources to training. It becomes a 2-5 year investment (more on the HVAC side).
I had always been biased against the international masters students, as I generally found that they lacked some of the creativity that is required in our field. I have since been proven wrong, with two great hires recently.
Unfortunately, unless they can have their PE and be paid $91k after 12 months now, they will not be eligible for an H1B. General wages start at $55-65k first year, $60-70k second year, and $68-85k third year. So, they will leave...
This isn't smart policy. I understand the need to prevent companies like us using H1Bs to have someone work for $55,58,62...k and deprive good jobs for citizens, but keeping bright *young* people is a huge benefit. Instead, we hire and train people apuntil their F1(?) education expires, and they go home for a better job.
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Again, speaking specifically to my field, the challenge is you lose the young ambitious people to other industries right out of school, which inherently limits your remaining pool. You then lose another 20-35% mid-career to either be with the kids, or go into sales or similar “related” field. Much of what you are left with are people that can execute, but lack management or creative thinking skills... and people that simply never really could do the job.
The field is also plagued with boom and bu
If you know it's comming (Score:2)
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My company does power and HVAC systems engineering for buildings. There is and has been a significant shortage of people in this field over the years
Please describe your company's mentorship/training programs to address this shortage...
(it has always paid less than high-tech and finance, and to really succeed you need the same personality and skill sets)
Yeah right, being an HVAC technician requires the exact same skill set as a career in finance and/or high-tech.
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Not a technician... an engineer. There is a significant difference in skill sets. A technician in the field for decades might be able to follow a procedure quite effectively, but they struggle with defining problems.
The cream of the crop in my field are traditionally from architectural engineering programs. These are kids that learn a great breadth of knowledge about how buildings and construction work. That is the skill set that is attractive to a number of other industries. Working at Deloitte or one of
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I worked finance for a decade. It was filled with physicists, mathematicians and engineers. And in one case, a classic French poetry critic.
In any event, it remains the largest collection of smart people I've seen, and that includes university research departments.
First to leave other countries as well. (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone is looking to move up to do the best for their family. Indians to America. Syrians to Europe. Americas to Canada. Americans to Europe. The people first to move are the well educated with the capital to make such a move.
I have my MS and my wife has her MD. As a whole we've debated what countries would be best for our kids and their kids. Universal health care, fewer school shoots, treating mental health like a mental and not judicial problem and a host of other differences. Yeah, it reflects our politics. But it's pretty apparent the US isn't going to be what we want for our grand kids and their grand kids.
And you can save your breath, yelling at people on Facebook hasn't done anything either. I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion, I want to live with people, like those in Canada or the Nordic states that share my opinion.
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Everyone is looking to move up to do the best for their family. Indians to America. Syrians to Europe. Americas to Canada. Americans to Europe. The people first to move are the well educated with the capital to make such a move.
Meh, that's a load of bullshit. They're extremely disproportionally young males allegedly under 18, the expendables of the family and not really educated for anything. Their mission is to anchor themselves as "children", get some menial work to send money back to their family and apply for family reunification. They might be doing it for the family's good but they're almost all a huge money sink on the receiving nation. Only those truly blinded by ideology manage to think otherwise.
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I want to live with people, like those in Canada or the Nordic states that share my opinion.
Please, describe the immigration process for moving to Canada [canada.ca] or "the Nordic states" [norskbloggen.no] permanently... It doesn't appear you can just "decide" to immigrate to any country you choose.
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Go to Google. Type "Emigrate to [country]". They all have their own nuances.
With a MS in engineering and an MD we both qualify as skilled workers. She additionally speaks French, or enough to qualify for points. We also have more than enough saved up to meet the requirements of countries that have 'savings' requirements.
Re:First to leave other countries as well. (Score:4, Interesting)
In Canada, speaking French requires fluency at a grade 12 level, unless you're from an undeveloped county. You also have to be able to write at the same level for it to apply. MD's are hard capped in Canada, and if you're using that as a basic you *must* take residency in the province or territory you're assigned to. You also must retake various tests to gain the right to open a practice in the province you're assigned to. That means, you might have your heard and dreams set on Toronto(ON) or Vancouver(BC), but you might be assigned to far northern Alberta with 3hrs of sunlight in the winter and 21hrs of daylight in the summer and be 12hrs from a city larger then 8k people for up to 5 years. You'll also have to re-take engineering certification tests here in Canada.
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We're intelligent enough to have made it through med school and engineering school and you think we haven't been doing our due diligence in researching giving up our US citizenship?
Please, continue to go on about all of the issues that may come up.
open a practice
She's not in private practice. There are more doctors than outpatient. Underserved communities in Canada look a lot like the underserved communities in the US.
your heard and dreams set
God no. For the same reason we don't go to NY, California, or Seattle. We honeymooned around Georgian Bay
Re: First to leave other countries as well. (Score:3)
You may have missed it, but my comment had links to the immigration requirements for Norway and Canada - my point remains, it isn't a matter of crossing the border, showing them your impressive US degrees, and they welcome you with open arms.
The Canadian gov't tells doctors where to practice, for example. I encourage you to go into Mexico and apply for permission to just work there, let alone live there as anything other than a vacationing guest - they don't want you, they don't want to import workers, they
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Grandparents, cousins, family. The same reasons holding most other people back from leaving.
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Same situation in the UK now. Brexit, a hostile environment and poor economic prospects. Engineers are leaving, and there is a sense of urgency because the future is so uncertain.
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fewer school shoots
The death rate from school shootings in the US is ~20/year. (For comparison, the school-age population is 64,000,000.) That's above the crushed-by-vending-machine death rate (~3/year), but below the killed-by-dogs death rate (34/year), and far below the texting-while-driving death rate (6,000/year). (All figures for US only.)
If the risk of school shootings is a serious factor in motivating you to move to another country, you should be *far* more motivated to move to a country that lacks mobile phones.
(Nu
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Read the usernames. Nat all members of the 10100 Digit (binary) UID Club are the same.
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A mistake I've maid to The other member of the club is a right dickhead.
Re: First to leave other countries as well. (Score:2)
Re: First to leave other countries as well. (Score:2)
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Wrong. Medical decisions are triaged by government, and they can and do refuse medical treatment for people. On top of that healthcare is fully rationed depending on a persons need for it. There's a court case at the Supreme Court of Canada right now about a guy being denied treatment, and the only other effective option he was given was medically assisted suicide despite his desire to live.
Re: First to leave other countries as well. (Score:2)
Please provide evidence that God and all those other things you mentioned are correlated with better mental health outcomes. My opinion is that belief in God is evidence of a mental health issue just as much as a belief in fairies or unicorns would be.
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It's quite plausible that certain socially-acceptable delusions could benefit mental health. A church can provide an effective tight-knit support community and increase social contact. Or perhaps belief in a loving God and promised afterlife acts to shield people from the depressing apathy of the universe and their own inevitable cessation. The beliefs need not be actually true to be beneficial. They just need to be common enough that society won't reject them as crazy.
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Well, in "non-heathy" environments, belief in God is reportedly correlated to happiness:
https://www.psychologytoday.co... [psychologytoday.com]
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And you can save your breath
You really didn't read the whole thing?
You seem like high income individuals, you cant afford your own?
We absolutely can afford our own. But we can't guarantee our descendants will be in the same financial situation. If they don't end up in the same high paying jobs we want them to be able to get health care.
Universal health care means government run health care which means you have bureaucrats making decisions.
Yeah, because the capitalistic "Are we sure curing people is long term profitable" is working so well.
trashing God, morality, the bible, religion, respect and loyalty to our country, personality responsibility
Oh fuck off. Northern Europe is mostly agnostic and doesn't seem to have the issues the US has. The most religious regions, the South, seems to have the most issues
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On average, about 50 people are killed by lightning in the US each year. So far in 2018, 28 people have been killed in school shootings in the US.
Ah, but how many people are killed by lightning in schools each year?
leaving California too (Score:3)
And in other news, California is experiencing an exodus. [cnbc.com] And it's mostly the middle class that's fleeing progressive California.
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Re:leaving California too (Score:5, Interesting)
With one of the highest rates of income inequality and poverty in the nation, it looks like California is becoming a state of ultra-wealthy tech overlords and their foreign slave labor. Yeah, anybody with a choice doesn't want to be part of such a dysfunctional social structure. And the irony is that these people still blame conservatives for the massive inequality, racism, and poverty in California.
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Right, they're leaving because of progressive policies. Absurdly gigantic housing cost and traffic nightmares (=lots of time wasted) can't possibly have anything to do with it.
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The latter are consequences of the former.
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What won't be so good is that for percentage point that the middle class population drops, taxes or deficits will go up several percentage points. And if you own a home, improvements in traffic go along with substantial drops in the value of your home.
Not news (Score:2)
We knew that engineers would leave. The question is whether the jobs are leaving with them. I don't think I see that trend.
Merit-based Immigration (Score:4, Interesting)
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system.
So fifty years after Canada implements a merit-based (AKA points-based) immigration policy America-hating Americans attack President Trump and his administration as being anti-immigrant [forbes.com] by proposing a similar immigration program. (Apparently the only good immigration program is one that increases the absolute number of immigrants admitted into the country annually...)
Re:Merit-based Immigration (Score:4, Informative)
Australia and NZ also have similar systems, but progressives in the US claim that it's racist for Trump wanting to have it as you pointed out. But they'll laud the immigration system in all three countries as great. Considering the absolute shitshow going on up here in Canada right now? There's a lot of angry people, and you're hearing a lot of "maybe Japans immigration system is better."
Canada implements H1-B Visas (Score:2)
Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
So Canada has implemented their own version of the H1-B Visa program and took in 5,600 highly-skilled professionals and gave them temporary work permits... Big Deal.
You do know that (Score:2, Informative)
The Real Reason (Score:2)
Engineers are the only talent the USA has to trade for decent NHL players.
The incentive is better beer for the engineers and sex without snow shoes for the hockey stars.
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Have you been paying attention to the politics out of Toronto(Ontario) and federally by the Liberal Party the last few years? The anti-white racism being pushed by both parties, is part and parcel the same being pushed by progressives in the US. Look at it this way, the policies of the Ontario Liberal Party and their actions have likely just killed their party. The Progressive Conservatives have moved into a likely super-majority status in the legislature with an estimated 85-98 seats. The NDP manage to
No single reason (Score:2)
Let's face it: whatever technology lead the US used to have, it's gone, or about to in the coming years / decades. Just reading tech news regularly yields a # of reasons:
* Housing prices in the Silicon Valley area. ;-).
* Anti-immigration views displayed by the current US president (and quite a few of his followers).
* The crazy Republicans vs. Democrats political situation.
* Intellectual property hassles combined with a lawsuit-happy culture (with expensive lawyers as the cherry on top
* Investment
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Just to name a few. Not saying the above is good or bad in itself... But if I were about to run a tech startup, rather than Silicon Valley I'd be looking to move to Hong Kong / Shenzhen area. Or even some lesser known place in say, Eastern Europe or South America, provided enough talent in the field & facilities / suppliers were already there.
Well, that's the problem, they're not, which is why the aburdity of SV persists. And, when things do spread, it will likely be to a small number of equally absurd
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Re: No single reason (Score:2)
I find it interesting that you think Silicon Valley is the epicenter of engineering. The US has plenty of room and talent to sustain several tech hubs. Austin, Seattle, San Diego, D.C., etc.
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Re:They're probably all Democrats (Score:5, Informative)
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world
Singapore is a low-tax authoritarian country which spends little on social programs, spends robustly on their military, executes drug dealers, and they even spank petty criminals.
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And chewing gum is illegal there.
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At least there's that.
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Maybe slightly lower income tax [iras.gov.sg], but wait until they see what ordinance [agc.gov.sg] violations exist, and what the payments are, as well as how often they are cited. Also, no guns [loc.gov].
"Singapore has one of the toughest gun control laws in the world. According to the Arms Offences Act, unlawful possession or carrying of firearms is punishable with imprisonment and caning. Using or attempting to use arms when committing a scheduled offense is punishable with death. The death penalty may also apply to the offender’
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So why did a Canadian engineer recently start at my US-based company? When I asked him about it he said that he was having too much trouble finding work in Canada lately.
Bad HR problems. In both Canasta and the US, people who are qualified are unemployed while I can't find qualified candidates.
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In both Canasta and the US, people who are qualified are unemployed while I can't find qualified candidates.
If only corporations were more open to remote workers versus insisting that people be sitting in the head office between 9am-5pm. That is the main problem I'm currently facing, trying to find work in my relatively small city. Lots of work...as long as I'm willing to move to one of the large cities where the cost-of-living is so high I cannot afford a decent house, much less a nice place to raise my children.
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Remote-friendly places do exist, TELUS is one decent-sized example. It's a hell of a lot easier if it's part of the company culture.
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Not just that, the immigrant engineers are leaving for Canada after the Trump administration decides that they want to adapt the same points based/merit based immigration system. If that's such a horrible concept, why are they leaving for a country that has exactly that?
Also, in the above blurb on Canada, it also states that people have to know either English or French. That's very different from the immigration problem in the US, where people who speak only Spanish come in, w/ no intention of ever lear
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You do know that the US has no official national language, and that Spanish is co-official with English in at least one US state, don't you?
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I was in Southern California. Trust me. That area has an official language. And it's Spanish.
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Re: Oh Really? (Score:2, Informative)
The whole USA was a hostile invasion to begin with.
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> they chose a country that is more difficult to enter legally than the US
Canada has a population of 30 million and brings in 300,000 a year, so that's 1%
The US has a population of 325 million and brings in 1.5 million a year, so that's 0.5%
So Canada is twice as easy to get into, legally.
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Canada has a more attractive system because there is a better path to citizenship and family reunion.
Some people (not just in the US, in the UK too) seem to think that they can just get people in for a few years and then send them home. Good people won't come on those terms.
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If the money is good enough, I'll come. But that's the other problem, the main reason these countries want to import foreign labour is that they want to import cheap labour...
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Read the Vancouver property market situation. Some people have been buying visas from Montreal, moving to Vancouver and speculating on apartment and home prices. At the same time, salaries have been falling.
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> When I asked him about it he said that he was having too much trouble finding work in Canada lately.
Well I can't speak for "that guy", but unemployment in Canada is on its historical low:
http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/canadas-unemployment-rate-declines-to-lowest-in-four-decades
Note that we count our rate differently than in the US, and there's about a 1% difference if we count using the US methods. So this corresponds to something around 4.7% compared to the current US rate of 4.1%
Wait
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Farming too hard in the colonies? Trap a bunch of Africans and bring them over as slaves. . . . Now H1Bs. It's all the same thing.
Yes, when I think about H1Bs coming to the U.S. and getting paid far better than they ever would in their home countries, the immediate parallel that springs to mind is plantations, whips and chains. Ah Maslow, we hardly knew ye.
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Seriously, this is America's original sin. Farming too hard in the colonies? Trap a bunch of Africans and bring them over as slaves.
Not quite.
Africans enslaved and sold other Africans.
The Portuguese, Spanish, French and English bought those slaves then stuffed them in boats and sent them to work in their colonies (the ones that survived, anyway).
When the US was founded as an independent nation, slavery became a hot topic not because the north thought it was bad and the south was racist, but because the governing structure of the country involved indirect representation of people, and slaves were people. Well, three fifths of a person e
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Not that long, the UK's Slavery Abolition Act was in 1833, which supersedes the 1807 law. France was 1976 IIRC. So around 50 to 60 years, which isn't that long in the grand scheme of things.
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Be prepared to go bankrupt if you get seriously ill.
As a well-paid senior (20 yrs experience) software engineer he likely has health insurance coverage from his employer, and as such will likely NOT go broke if he gets "seriously ill,"
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Re:where are these jobs? (Score:5, Interesting)
As a Canadian who lived in the US for ~4 years before returning to canada.. Running back for health care would be hard. after 183 days outside the country they cancel it on you.
"All provinces, except Ontario and Newfoundland, require you to actually live in your home province for at least six months plus a day (183 days in most years) in order to be considered a permanent resident of that province, and therefore qualified for provincial health insurance (medicare) benefits. That means actually residing in your home province and being able to prove it, if necessary, not simply owning a residence there and living in Portugal, Mexico or California for eight or nine months."
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I started making a playlist [youtube.com] of it that repeats it several times, but I'm having trouble being in the same room while it is playing.