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Education

University of Chicago To Stop Requiring ACT and SAT Scores For Prospective Undergraduates (chicagotribune.com) 457

An anonymous reader shares a report: For years, a debate has simmered at the nation's universities and colleges over how much weight should be given to standardized tests as officials consider students for admission -- and whether they should be required at all. A growing number, including DePaul University, have opted to stop requiring the SAT and ACT in their admissions process, saying the tests place an unfair cost and burden on low-income and minority students, and ultimately hinder efforts to broaden diversity on campus. But the trend has escaped the nation's most selective universities. Until now. The University of Chicago announced Thursday that it would no longer require applicants for the undergraduate college to submit standardized test scores. While it will still allow applicants to submit their SAT or ACT scores, university officials said they would let prospective undergraduates send transcripts on their own and submit video introductions and nontraditional materials to supplement their applications.
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University of Chicago To Stop Requiring ACT and SAT Scores For Prospective Undergraduates

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  • by SmaryJerry ( 2759091 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:45AM (#56789548)
    Taking and passing a ln SAT test sure does cost a lotbof money /s
    • by Anonymous Coward

      It is wrong to give one testing corporation full power over all young people's future...

      If 4 years of University and an Internship work well - that tells a lot more than a few hour long multiple choice test.

    • Lot of money? The SAT itself is cheap -- remedial classes/SAT prep classes cost money, but not everyone needs them.
  • So, once again.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:45AM (#56789550) Homepage Journal
    ....we cater to the lowest common denominator......
    • by Ichijo ( 607641 )
      Testing won't detect all substandard students, nor will it catch only substandard students. There will always be false positives and false negatives. So it isn't quite the panacea you think it is.
    • that SAT scores have no bearing on graduation rates.
    • No. Once again it's show that the US high school system is now so shite that even US school systems don't want anything to do with it anymore.
  • Corruption (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:46AM (#56789558)

    When we eliminate objective means of measuring performance, we increase our control of the process. We increase our power.

    • Why even have grades? Heck, why not just issue college degrees with the high school diploma and skip collegiate classrooms altogether! Think of all the savings!

      • Why even have grades? Heck, why not just issue college degrees with the high school diploma and skip collegiate classrooms altogether! Think of all the savings!

        Just make sure the degrees are in pictograms; mustn't disadvantage anybody.

      • by mi ( 197448 ) <slashdot-2017q4@virtual-estates.net> on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:13AM (#56789716) Homepage Journal

        In his book "Friday", Robert Heinlein predicted (in 1982) The California Confederacy voting to grant a Bachelor degree to every citizen graduating high school.

        Because someone observed "that Californians with college degrees earned more than those with high school diplomas alone".

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:46AM (#56789564)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • not stupid at all, the tests don't predict what grades a student will get in college. My ACT scores were near perfect, but my Uni grades weren't outside of my major and minor

  • by theskipper ( 461997 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:57AM (#56789626)

    Since most kids/parents have gamed the standardized tests so well, this will probably relieve some pressure on admissions folk to focus on the truly curious and motivated applicants regardless of score. Akin to showing your Gitlab projects to a prospective employer instead of a resume bragging about your umpteen MCSE certs but not knowing how to actually do anything.

  • by Jezral ( 449476 ) <mail@tinodidriksen.com> on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:00AM (#56789640) Homepage

    If anything, that's yet another damning indictment of the US education system.

    Here in Denmark, your standardized scores coming out of secondary education (high school, et al) mean everything, and can be relied upon to do so. There are no entrance tests for universities, no essays to write, no customized applications. Your test scores represent you - and it works, because the whole (free!) public education system is good enough, from the ground up.

    (Universities here do have non-standard application options for people who want to go that route, or don't qualify for first priority for any reason.)

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by DogDude ( 805747 )
      If anything, that's yet another damning indictment of the US education system.

      The US education system, is indeed, garbage, unless you're wealthy. While we're at it, so is health care and many other indicators of quality of life. The US is a really, really awful place to live if you're not wealthy.
      • by ooloorie ( 4394035 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:27AM (#56789812)

        The US education system, is indeed, garbage, unless you're wealthy. While we're at it, so is health care and many other indicators of quality of life. The US is a really, really awful place to live if you're not wealthy.

        Good thing then that most Americans are wealthy by European standards. [mises.org]

        • by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:39AM (#56789918)
          Income adjusted for purchasing power isn't the only metric when making such comparisons. In most European countries, people don't pay through the nose for health care aka "insurance." They often don't need two cars, due to availability of public transport. University tends to be cheap -- nearly free -- in many countries. Disposable incomes may be lower, but a lot more things are paid for by taxes than in the US, where it's sink-or-swim, on your own.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by ooloorie ( 4394035 )

            You're repeating the typical fairy tales Americans believe about Europe. Nope, sorry, take it from someone who has been a citizen in both places: things don't work that way.

            • Facts are that health care is expensive in the US -- I have family in Europe who thinks that US costs are crazy. University? I'm looking at graduate programs in Europe now -- they're 20-25% the cost of those in the US, and that's as a foreign student.
              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                by ooloorie ( 4394035 )

                Fact is that that is already accounted for in the data I cited. Fact is also that you're comparing apples and oranges in terms of programs and coverage.

                Fact is also that, aside from the $PPP comparison I mentioned, there are massive opportunity costs that Europeans pay that you don't even see as an American. For example, nice for you that you can buy yourself into a European program with American money, but many Europeans are excluded from their own universities because of test scores. And many Europeans wh

                • Um. It's a lot easier to prepare for a standardized university entrance exam than to re-do four years of high school grades in the US. Imagine going to a Christian high school in the US as an atheist, being told that evolution didn't exist, and getting bad grades when you say that God didn't create the Earth in a week.

                  Part of the reason why I'm considering a graduate program in Europe is that I'm considering staying in the EU. So ultimately, I might end up giving up my American citizenship since I'm a du

        • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @02:15PM (#56791204)
          the whole "wealth inequality" thing. When it comes to quality of life America isn't even in the top 10 [weforum.org].

          Put another way, what the hell do I care if there's 100 billionaires in driving distance of me if I'm living in a slum?
        • Good thing then that most Americans are wealthy by European standards.

          Interesting, but it's hard to evaluate that site since it's already digested a lot of the data (for good reason.) It does cite a lot of relevant information, but it's not realistic to expect one to dig through all that to find problems. Also coming from the Mises Institute is a bit suspect for some. Economics is full of bad science and Austrian economics is often the least empirically grounded. However, it does appear to be based on

    • by mcmonkey ( 96054 )

      I think the use of standardized tests as you describe it is an indictment of the Danish education system. If your schools are so good, why not use those grades for the university application process, not a separate test?

      Here in the USA we've found such tests are basically useless. That is why they are falling out of favor. This isn't a watering down of standards or a sacrifice of quality to achieve more inclusion.

      Please note, while this may not be the case in other countries, in the USA these tests--SAT and

      • by Cyberax ( 705495 )
        School grades are not an unbiased indicator. Teachers might dislike certain students, there can be parent pressure on teachers to give their children better grades and so on. And don't forget the possibility of straight out corruption as well.

        Standardized tests allow an outside unbiased evaluation of students.
    • by Kohath ( 38547 )

      Yes, it's well known that anything involving government services is 1000 times better in northern Europe than in the US. That's why people in the US are so down on government solutions to problems -- because government does a horrible job.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      So a person's opportunities and earning power are determined by some exams taken over a few weeks when they are children, and that's it?

      Sounds like a terrible system. I really screwed up some of my exams because of a tragedy that hit my family, but was given another chance, went to university and recovered.

      Exams are not a good way to measure people. They encourage students to study for them rather than mastering the subject, and they only provide a snapshot of a particular time.

      If someone can prove they are

      • by Cyberax ( 705495 )

        Sounds like a terrible system. I really screwed up some of my exams because of a tragedy that hit my family, but was given another chance, went to university and recovered.

        You can typically re-take tests or defer them a little bit.

  • ultimately hinder efforts to broaden diversity on campus

    An educational institution's goal is — or ought to be — education.

    Whether SAT and other scores help that or not, "diversity" certainly does not. It is a completely bogus goal to pursue.

  • by MobyDisk ( 75490 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:09AM (#56789694) Homepage

    While it will still allow applicants to submit their SAT or ACT scores, university officials said they would let prospective undergraduates send transcripts on their own and submit video introductions and nontraditional materials to supplement their applications.

    It may not be required, but I suspect that most students will provide them anyway. Students apply to multiple universities so they will have the test scores. The students who don't provide them may be at a disadvantage compared to the students that do. These tests exist because it is hard to screen every possible application by watching their personalized video. Objective measures are useful and they won't go away.

  • by DogDude ( 805747 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:10AM (#56789698)
    I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.

    In the US, we have no national education standards. In many states, we have no state standards. The quality of schools and what is taught in schools varies wildly from district to district, and even school to school, due to wildly unequal funding. With no standards, how are they going to compare students?
    • +100 (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      From the High School I graduated from, most students came out with at least two or three AP classes under their belt. I completely passed out of my college's chemistry and English requirements. Most of us got decent SAT/ACT grades and were accepted into decent universities.

      My wife is getting interns from another local "magnet" high school for kids who show aptitude in science and math (my wife's an engineer.) These are seniors in a magnet school, and they can barely use a desktop computer, nor form cogent s

    • I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.

      Way back when, we used to joke in the US that teachers would grade papers by tossing a pile of them down a staircase. The ones that landed closest to the top got the best grades.

      So maybe the teachers can just toss all the students down the stairs, and evaluate them by where they land . . . ?

    • by mcmonkey ( 96054 )

      I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.

      Most high schools give students grades in courses they've completed. They'll judge students by high school transcripts.

      Yes, the quality of high schools varies across the many local school systems. University and college admissions offices know this. Why do you think they don't know this and can't include that in evaluation of a transcript?

      History shows the best predictor of student success in college is not these test scores, or application essays, or anything other than high school grades.

      When it comes to

    • by hipp5 ( 1635263 )

      I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.

      Somehow we manage to do it in Canada.

    • by mckwant ( 65143 )

      The two minute video presentation. Duh. Totally evens the playing field.

      To be fair, this is the first good use of the "4K Video 'Creator'" job class I've seen. If I needed it, I could see dropping $(ProVideoGuySideGigMoney) for 25hr of a pro video guy, maybe $100 per re-edit for differing colleges. Just a new variant of wedding planner / house revamping guy / life coach.

      Read: Another bunch of flakes who should be on a 747 to the sun.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Re "how are they going to compare students?"
      For getting into university without an exam?
      Communist China did that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] "The university entrance exams were cancelled after 1966, to be replaced later by a system whereby students were recommended by factories, villages and military units, and entrance exams were not restored until 1977 under Deng Xiaoping."
      China just filled its university system with Communists until 1977 no matter their educational ability.
      After 1977 the stu
  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:17AM (#56789740)
    will do more to weed people out than anything else. I'm paying $11k/yr for the 1st 2 and $16/k for the last two for my kid. If her grade were poor I could risk that. She'd be off to a life in Walmart.
  • Undergraduates sometimes surprise you - some of the brightest may have no creative imagination, some of the dullest may have great entreprenurial instincts. An interview can sus that in minutes, but if it's not PC to 'select', then hey, up the intake and note the 'survival of the fittest' in the first year. Waste of time for those unsuited, who could have been told ab initio, were it not for PC

  • Translation (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kohath ( 38547 ) on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:26AM (#56789804)

    Using test scores meant they had to admit too many Asians and whites. Getting rid of test scores makes it easier to discriminate against Asians and whites.

  • I like what some CUNY schools do. You can take up to a certain number of credits as a high school grad who either:
    (1) passed the CUNY entrance exam
    (2) passed the Regents (an exam that everyone in NY state has to take to graduate high school)

    The bar for this kind of non-degreee/probationary admission is fairly low, and but you "prove yourself", you can apply for regular admission.

  • The UofC initiates yet another race to the bottom.
  • ... enrollment is declining, revenue is down, so lower the barriers.

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