University of Chicago To Stop Requiring ACT and SAT Scores For Prospective Undergraduates (chicagotribune.com) 457
An anonymous reader shares a report: For years, a debate has simmered at the nation's universities and colleges over how much weight should be given to standardized tests as officials consider students for admission -- and whether they should be required at all. A growing number, including DePaul University, have opted to stop requiring the SAT and ACT in their admissions process, saying the tests place an unfair cost and burden on low-income and minority students, and ultimately hinder efforts to broaden diversity on campus. But the trend has escaped the nation's most selective universities. Until now. The University of Chicago announced Thursday that it would no longer require applicants for the undergraduate college to submit standardized test scores. While it will still allow applicants to submit their SAT or ACT scores, university officials said they would let prospective undergraduates send transcripts on their own and submit video introductions and nontraditional materials to supplement their applications.
So it's turning into a community college? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:2, Interesting)
It is wrong to give one testing corporation full power over all young people's future...
If 4 years of University and an Internship work well - that tells a lot more than a few hour long multiple choice test.
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone is made for college.
Not everyone who's made for college is made for a standardized test.
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:3, Insightful)
College is a series of standardized test culminating in a degree. If you can't take one, you can't take the rest. It's a filter.
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Where did you get the idea that college is a series of standardized tests? We're not talking about DeVry here, we're talking about the University of Chicago. Professors write their own tests. Some may use the same one year after year, but those are the lazy ones.
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are limited seats at university. Of course there should be an entrance filter to accept the most viable students.
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That is why most universities have personal interviews, check the students records, Look at other activities and accomplishments....
The SAT and the like tests, are about proper prep, vs actual knowledge and skill. If students took the test cold without prep, then it may be more fare of a test, but for the most part the more affluent students will have hours of SAT Test training, taken multiple practice tests, and prepped for the full test.
When I took the SAT vs the practice SAT, I was pushed back on the le
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:4, Informative)
That is why most universities have personal interviews, check the students records, Look at other activities and accomplishments.... The SAT and the like tests, are about proper prep, vs actual knowledge and skill. If students took the test cold without prep, then it may be more fare of a test, but for the most part the more affluent students will have hours of SAT Test training, taken multiple practice tests, and prepped for the full test.
And all of those other criteria can be biased and highly in-favor of the affluent as well. In fact, most of those things can be far more in favor of students from richer households and can be gamed by those with more time and resources at their disposal. Perhaps for some majors and fields these tests are not useful, but for STEM they most certainly are. There is a considerable amount of research that says they are the best indicators that admissions staff have as things like GPA can be very different things at different high schools (especially when you add in international students from entirely different systems). I think these changes will make it harder for those from poor backgrounds to be admitted and will favor most those from richer families (and to an even greater degree those who are of the right demographic groups).
Creating a system for evaluating students is very very hard. Consider the game theory aspects of trying to reduce the amount of "gaming the system" that those with more resources can do (think Freakonomics). Any set of criteria you come up with (outside of outright quota systems based upon demographics) can be gamed, even standardized tests. The issue is which criteria are "gamed" by the smallest amount and in favor of who are those criteria? And the research that I've seen says its the tests that are the hardest to game as its the one place where everyone truly has a level playing field. Now if a design program doesn't use the SAT or ACT at all, I think that is sensible. But getting rid of it across the entire university seems foolish at best, especially for the STEM departments.
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That depends on the specialization. Devil is in the details.
Sophomore level coursework abandon testing? Sounds more like grade inflation than 'misfit curves', they look a lot alike.
What % of incoming freshman made it to second year? Unless it's in the engineering school neighborhood (maybe 30%), you are looking at _grade_inflation_.
High aptitude, waived? Not in my experience. You get classes waived for actually having done the work and testing out, not just having a talent for it.
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Open book tests are the hardest, by far. Profs take the gloves off. Projects are just long, open book tests.
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College is a series of standardized test culminating in a degree.
The only standardized tests I took in college were the EIT and the GRE. Neither counted toward my degree.
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College Degree Grading rarely uses standardized tests, and for the more modern professors your test scores may only account for about 1/3 of your grade. With Projects, Papers, Presentation, and Participation accounting for the other 2/3 of your grade.
We still have the random professor who will lecture the semester and your grade is based on the final exam. But I havn't personally ran across a professor like that in my undergrad or my masters. Granted I studied Computer Science and Business so most of my c
It helps some of us (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone who's made for college is made for a standardized test.
True but for some of us (like me) the standardized test gave us a way to prove we were smarter than our grades would otherwise indicate. I wasn't a great student. Partly because I'm easily bored especially by subjects I don't care about. But mostly because primary school tends to heavily reward the ability to memorize and regurgitate random facts and my brain isn't optimally wired for doing that. But I could do rather well (generally 90-95th percentile) on standardized tests so even though my grades were mediocre I was still able to get into a very good college.
So some people who are college material don't have good test scores but conversely some people without exceptional grades actually are rather bright and do fine in college. I was the later.
Re:It helps some of us (Score:4, Informative)
So some people who are college material don't have good test scores but conversely some people without exceptional grades actually are rather bright and do fine in college. I was the later.
And you can still take and turn in such tests to support your application, they just are no longer required.
Re: It helps some of us (Score:5, Interesting)
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But mostly because primary school tends to heavily reward the ability to memorize and regurgitate random facts and my brain isn't optimally wired for doing that.
That is entirely incorrect. I can memorize things all day long and regurgitate them back at you for weeks and sometimes months. I could ace every test in every subject and still almost failed out of high school because I refused to do homework. Primary school is geared at being a good little student and completing your homework assignments no matter how mundane or trivial they are. Tests can influence your grades but most teachers emphasize homework over test scores. Even in university some teachers ge
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One of the games these days is to transfer the kid to a _SHITTY_ public school for senior year.
The kid gets straight As senior year and a bonus for graduating from a bad school. But is still prepared for the work.
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Reading about this got
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Slashdot Anonymous Cowards are living proof.
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:5, Informative)
Stanford hasn't required the SAT for some time, and I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a drop in incoming student quality.
Re: So it's turning into a community college? (Score:4, Interesting)
Stanford hasn't required the SAT for some time
It isn't required, but nearly all applicants still submit scores.
The exceptions are mostly "legacy" children of alumni. If an application comes with a $1M donation to the endowment, then nobody is going worry about a silly little test score.
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Stanford hasn't required the SAT for some time, and I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a drop in incoming student quality.
Yes, from what I remember from university, the biggest cause of failing and dropping out was not lack of ability to pass beginning college courses but rather lack of discipline in getting up early and going to classes instead of partying and skipping claasses once on your own and away from mommy and daddy. Standardized tests won't do much to determine that.
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Re:So it's turning into a community college? (Score:5, Insightful)
remedial classes/SAT prep classes cost money, but not everyone needs them.
You can buy a $10 test prep book on Amazon that covers the exact same material as the $5,000 classes.
The only thing the classes provide is a babysitter to make sure you actually do the exercises.
Needs fixing at School-level (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people can afford to give their kids extra resources. Technology, books, tutors, free time. That all helps pass the SAT test.
You need to look at this from a university's perspective though. When I am teaching a first year physics course if the students in the lecture do not have a sufficient background in maths and physics to understand the material then they are wasting their time and money being there. That is the point of having standardized tests: they ensure all students have a sufficient background to be able to cope with the program they want to enrol in.
If society fails to support those from disadvantaged backgrounds enough so that they too can also reach the standards required for university then there is not a lot the university can do without lowering its academic standards and then you end up with a second rate institute whose qualifications are far less useful and whose value to society is far less than it was. If the university intake is not diverse enough for society then, provided the university is applying its intake requirements in an unbiased fashion, that same society needs to fix the problem at the school level.
So, once again.... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Or it could be they've just found (Score:2)
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Re: So, once again.... (Score:2)
SAT and other scores are a direct predictor of success regardless of whether you end up going to college.
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Except, according to TFA, it isn't:
TFA doesn't say that. It says they are unfair to minority and low income students. It does NOT say they lack predictive power.
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As someone who has taught at one of the "hidden Ivies" as well as land-grant schools, I can offer some supported assertions. Yes, in my 25 years of experience, a low-income kid who had to work to get into a school will do better than a pampered legacy admit, 8 of 10 times. Also, I was one of those kids from tough backgrounds and still relish my memories of kicking Omega Theta Pi ass on the reg
Re: So, once again.... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but it's easy for the admissions process to adjust scores for impoverished backgrounds. It doesn't even run afoul of laws against racial quotas if you base it just on poverty.
For students from the top half or so of the economic system, tests are quite predictive. Not enough to use them in isolation, but they correlate better with success than any other individual measure.
The tests are still the most predictive tool, but there are many useful tools.
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SAT/ACT is basically an IQ test, by testing concrete knowledge after years of schooling.
You could google 'iq test predictor of performance' but that would fuck with your worldview and ego.
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Te repeat sibling post a bit: these tests are basically IQ tests. IQ is the best predictor of high school success, colleege succes, and life success (better than wealth of parents), with a correlation of about 0.5 IIRC, meaning it explains about 25% of results. As noted above, tests like this aren't entirely fair for low-income test-takers, for a variety of cultural reasons, but work quite well for the mainstream.
IIRC the next two predictors of success after IQ are wealth of parents, and conscientiousness [wikipedia.org]
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. Yes, in my 25 years of experience, a low-income kid who had to work to get into a school will do better than a pampered legacy admit, 8 of 10 times.
Depends (also speaking from experience). The problem with crappy schools is that, well, they're crappy. Not only do they not teach the subject matter, they fail ot teach all the important ancilliary skills, such as how to study and how to take exams (this is also something that needs to be taught and learned). The problem is that you have really bright kids st
Corruption (Score:5, Insightful)
When we eliminate objective means of measuring performance, we increase our control of the process. We increase our power.
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Why even have grades? Heck, why not just issue college degrees with the high school diploma and skip collegiate classrooms altogether! Think of all the savings!
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Why even have grades? Heck, why not just issue college degrees with the high school diploma and skip collegiate classrooms altogether! Think of all the savings!
Just make sure the degrees are in pictograms; mustn't disadvantage anybody.
Predicted by Heinlein (Score:5, Interesting)
In his book "Friday", Robert Heinlein predicted (in 1982) The California Confederacy voting to grant a Bachelor degree to every citizen graduating high school.
Because someone observed "that Californians with college degrees earned more than those with high school diplomas alone".
When companies are using lack of college degrees (Score:3)
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This is also a bad thing. High schools are often biased about who gets into AP or Honors classes -- it's often a highly subjective application process where kids who teachers think will be successful (i.e. white/asian/rich) get priority.
Far better would be to LOWER the requirements for admission. Start new matriculants in larger classes, maybe partially online. Let those who excel continue. This is essentially the system in many European universities -- anyone with an HS diploma can get into med school,
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" A weighted GPA of 4.4+ ...."
You've just demonstrated one of the more recent scams trying to game the admissions system. GPA's above 4.0 didn't even exit 20 years ago. But since there was a stigma attached to lesser scores and competition to get into university increased they invented ways to get higher than a perfect 4.0. Because everyone's child must be considered excellent even if they can barely read.
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ACT is simply a test of knowledge not ability to learn
It is a test of your ability to learn during high school. Or maybe a test of your willingness. But willingness is also important in college.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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not stupid at all, the tests don't predict what grades a student will get in college. My ACT scores were near perfect, but my Uni grades weren't outside of my major and minor
Re:Pure stupidity (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, and that's because college grades have become nearly meaningless.
Re:Pure stupidity (Score:5, Insightful)
Not graduates in actual disciplines, there will always be demand for those. Graduates in gender studies and social sciences (that have zero to do with science), of course. Those only exist for Big Academia to continue their multi-billion $$$ scam.
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The problem isn't quite as bad in the sciences, but grade inflation and lowering of standards exist there as well.
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Bullshit. Grade inflation predates "diversity" by decades.
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The SAT can determine how white and conservative you are by testing your understanding of written English and Math? So, you're saying that non-whites and liberals are bad with written English and Math? Please go on...
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The pre-SAT test isn't mandatory, though.
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Imagine being an atheist in a Christian school. Now imagine the grades those teachers (who know you loathe them and the idiocy they're shoveling down your throat) will give you. The SAT/ACT is a good counterpoint to a terrible high school career, which is often not the fault of the student.
Perhaps an atheist at a Christian school should have the good sense not to sneer hate at the teachers' beliefs. This is like going to North Korea and protesting oppression in the street then crying about being arrested.
Makes sense (Score:3)
Since most kids/parents have gamed the standardized tests so well, this will probably relieve some pressure on admissions folk to focus on the truly curious and motivated applicants regardless of score. Akin to showing your Gitlab projects to a prospective employer instead of a resume bragging about your umpteen MCSE certs but not knowing how to actually do anything.
Public education fail (Score:5, Insightful)
If anything, that's yet another damning indictment of the US education system.
Here in Denmark, your standardized scores coming out of secondary education (high school, et al) mean everything, and can be relied upon to do so. There are no entrance tests for universities, no essays to write, no customized applications. Your test scores represent you - and it works, because the whole (free!) public education system is good enough, from the ground up.
(Universities here do have non-standard application options for people who want to go that route, or don't qualify for first priority for any reason.)
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The US education system, is indeed, garbage, unless you're wealthy. While we're at it, so is health care and many other indicators of quality of life. The US is a really, really awful place to live if you're not wealthy.
Re:Public education fail (Score:4, Informative)
Good thing then that most Americans are wealthy by European standards. [mises.org]
Re:Public education fail (Score:4, Informative)
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You're repeating the typical fairy tales Americans believe about Europe. Nope, sorry, take it from someone who has been a citizen in both places: things don't work that way.
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Fact is that that is already accounted for in the data I cited. Fact is also that you're comparing apples and oranges in terms of programs and coverage.
Fact is also that, aside from the $PPP comparison I mentioned, there are massive opportunity costs that Europeans pay that you don't even see as an American. For example, nice for you that you can buy yourself into a European program with American money, but many Europeans are excluded from their own universities because of test scores. And many Europeans wh
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Um. It's a lot easier to prepare for a standardized university entrance exam than to re-do four years of high school grades in the US. Imagine going to a Christian high school in the US as an atheist, being told that evolution didn't exist, and getting bad grades when you say that God didn't create the Earth in a week.
Part of the reason why I'm considering a graduate program in Europe is that I'm considering staying in the EU. So ultimately, I might end up giving up my American citizenship since I'm a du
You're kind of glossing over (Score:5, Insightful)
Put another way, what the hell do I care if there's 100 billionaires in driving distance of me if I'm living in a slum?
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Interesting, but it's hard to evaluate that site since it's already digested a lot of the data (for good reason.) It does cite a lot of relevant information, but it's not realistic to expect one to dig through all that to find problems. Also coming from the Mises Institute is a bit suspect for some. Economics is full of bad science and Austrian economics is often the least empirically grounded. However, it does appear to be based on
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I think the use of standardized tests as you describe it is an indictment of the Danish education system. If your schools are so good, why not use those grades for the university application process, not a separate test?
Here in the USA we've found such tests are basically useless. That is why they are falling out of favor. This isn't a watering down of standards or a sacrifice of quality to achieve more inclusion.
Please note, while this may not be the case in other countries, in the USA these tests--SAT and
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Standardized tests allow an outside unbiased evaluation of students.
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Yes, it's well known that anything involving government services is 1000 times better in northern Europe than in the US. That's why people in the US are so down on government solutions to problems -- because government does a horrible job.
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So a person's opportunities and earning power are determined by some exams taken over a few weeks when they are children, and that's it?
Sounds like a terrible system. I really screwed up some of my exams because of a tragedy that hit my family, but was given another chance, went to university and recovered.
Exams are not a good way to measure people. They encourage students to study for them rather than mastering the subject, and they only provide a snapshot of a particular time.
If someone can prove they are
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Sounds like a terrible system. I really screwed up some of my exams because of a tragedy that hit my family, but was given another chance, went to university and recovered.
You can typically re-take tests or defer them a little bit.
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"Diversity" can not be the goal (Score:5, Insightful)
An educational institution's goal is — or ought to be — education.
Whether SAT and other scores help that or not, "diversity" certainly does not. It is a completely bogus goal to pursue.
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An educational institution's goal is — or ought to be — education.
So you agree with this move to stop requiring these standardized tests. There's no evidence such tests aid in education.
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No, I neither agree nor disagree with it. I do not know.
My point was — and remains — that diversity can not by itself be the goal of an educational institution.
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There's no evidence such tests aid in education.
I was rather skeptical of this claim (typically, though not always, something isn't done for no reason at all) so I did some quick Google searches.
I don't believe your claim is true from the following: https://www.applerouth.com/blog/2013/03/11/do-higher-satact-scores-indicate-college-readiness/ [applerouth.com], https://www.lbs.co.il/data/attachment-files/2016/10/34716_Kwon_Jamie.pdf [lbs.co.il], and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3090148/ [nih.gov] which showed among the top results when searching for whether or not these test
SAT is not required, but still expected (Score:5, Interesting)
While it will still allow applicants to submit their SAT or ACT scores, university officials said they would let prospective undergraduates send transcripts on their own and submit video introductions and nontraditional materials to supplement their applications.
It may not be required, but I suspect that most students will provide them anyway. Students apply to multiple universities so they will have the test scores. The students who don't provide them may be at a disadvantage compared to the students that do. These tests exist because it is hard to screen every possible application by watching their personalized video. Objective measures are useful and they won't go away.
How do they evaluate students? (Score:5, Insightful)
In the US, we have no national education standards. In many states, we have no state standards. The quality of schools and what is taught in schools varies wildly from district to district, and even school to school, due to wildly unequal funding. With no standards, how are they going to compare students?
+100 (Score:2, Interesting)
From the High School I graduated from, most students came out with at least two or three AP classes under their belt. I completely passed out of my college's chemistry and English requirements. Most of us got decent SAT/ACT grades and were accepted into decent universities.
My wife is getting interns from another local "magnet" high school for kids who show aptitude in science and math (my wife's an engineer.) These are seniors in a magnet school, and they can barely use a desktop computer, nor form cogent s
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I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.
Way back when, we used to joke in the US that teachers would grade papers by tossing a pile of them down a staircase. The ones that landed closest to the top got the best grades.
So maybe the teachers can just toss all the students down the stairs, and evaluate them by where they land . . . ?
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I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.
Most high schools give students grades in courses they've completed. They'll judge students by high school transcripts.
Yes, the quality of high schools varies across the many local school systems. University and college admissions offices know this. Why do you think they don't know this and can't include that in evaluation of a transcript?
History shows the best predictor of student success in college is not these test scores, or application essays, or anything other than high school grades.
When it comes to
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I don't understand how they're going to evaluate students.
Somehow we manage to do it in Canada.
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The two minute video presentation. Duh. Totally evens the playing field.
To be fair, this is the first good use of the "4K Video 'Creator'" job class I've seen. If I needed it, I could see dropping $(ProVideoGuySideGigMoney) for 25hr of a pro video guy, maybe $100 per re-edit for differing colleges. Just a new variant of wedding planner / house revamping guy / life coach.
Read: Another bunch of flakes who should be on a 747 to the sun.
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For getting into university without an exam?
Communist China did that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] "The university entrance exams were cancelled after 1966, to be replaced later by a system whereby students were recommended by factories, villages and military units, and entrance exams were not restored until 1977 under Deng Xiaoping."
China just filled its university system with Communists until 1977 no matter their educational ability.
After 1977 the stu
The absurd cost of college (Score:3)
Re:The absurd cost of college (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone is willing to join the military and volunteer to murder, be murdered, or come back crippled or ill from fighting for Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil, or Aramco. Let's not kid ourselves -- most wars in the last 70 years haven't been for "country." they've been to make big corporations money and to preserve their lines of income. War is a racket.
Far better for one's children to go to Europe, where they can take advantage of cheaper tuition, even for foreign students.
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Your post reminds me of this quote: “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Cen
Careful... (Score:2)
Undergraduates sometimes surprise you - some of the brightest may have no creative imagination, some of the dullest may have great entreprenurial instincts. An interview can sus that in minutes, but if it's not PC to 'select', then hey, up the intake and note the 'survival of the fittest' in the first year. Waste of time for those unsuited, who could have been told ab initio, were it not for PC
Translation (Score:3, Insightful)
Using test scores meant they had to admit too many Asians and whites. Getting rid of test scores makes it easier to discriminate against Asians and whites.
I like what some CUNY schools do... (Score:2)
I like what some CUNY schools do. You can take up to a certain number of credits as a high school grad who either:
(1) passed the CUNY entrance exam
(2) passed the Regents (an exam that everyone in NY state has to take to graduate high school)
The bar for this kind of non-degreee/probationary admission is fairly low, and but you "prove yourself", you can apply for regular admission.
race to the bottom (Score:2)
In other words ... (Score:2)
... enrollment is declining, revenue is down, so lower the barriers.
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With writing skills like that you might get accepted now!
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having the ability to learn is what the test can find.
Having the wealth to pay for expensive test prep courses is great. That student can take in information.
Recall such information and use the skills learned on different questions during an exam in the time given.
The people who created the test prep courses had skills. The students who took the test prep courses had skills.
The people who passed the exams showed they had
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"What's with this US obsession of distinguishing people into black, white, and asian?"
Because there are fortunes to be made in the US grievance industry.
Video Interviews have nothing to do with race (Score:5, Informative)
And it's been shown that people with black sounding names are much less likely to have applications reviewed. Mr D'Andre's name is likely to hurt him. If anything the video will be to his advantage. You're parroting a false talking point that comes out of right wing think tanks whose primary goal is to distract you from real economic issues with a persecution complex. Time to get woke my friend.
Wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Again, right wing talking points and wedge issues. We're all completely missing the point, which is that the 1% have cut funding to education so they can pocket the money as tax cuts while using cheap foreign labor to avoid paying for an educated workforce.
Every, and I mean everything, is always about the economy. If you and I weren't getting so screwed by wealth inequality you wouldn't give 2 shits about this. Because you wouldn't be at every other working stiff's throat for the scraps left by the billionaires. Face it, you've been had, again.