Mumbai Bans Plastic Bags, Bottles, and Single-Use Plastic Containers (theguardian.com) 174
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Mumbai has the become the largest Indian city to ban single-use plastics, with residents caught using plastic bags, cups or bottles to face penalties of up to 25,000 rupees (~$365) and three months in jail from Monday. Council inspectors in navy blue jackets have been posted across the city to catch businesses or residents still using plastic bags. Penalties have already kicked in for businesses and several, reportedly including a McDonald's and Starbucks, have already been fined. Penalties range from 5,000 rupees (~$73) for first-time offenders to 25,000 rupees (~$365) and the threat of three months' jail for those caught repeatedly using single-use plastics.
In place of plastic bags.. (Score:1)
Will they have some sort of designated replacement?
Re: (Score:1)
I would assume thicker mil plastic bags are allowed since they are considered multi use (according to the state of California.) That seems to be where these laws go. Next, expect harder to decompose plastic bags rolling down the street and a "use tax" to try and curtail even those (like in California.)
Re: (Score:3)
I really liked the old paper bags. They would easily hold up over multiple uses, and were handy for storage and the like. Back in the 70s many people saved those rather than treating them as disposables (even though disposable was all the fashion in the 70s). You start talking to people who were around in the great depression and they didn't treat anything as disposable.
Re: (Score:2)
So get the thicker plastic bags and only use them once, making the problem even worse.
Re:In place of plastic bags.. (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah! What DID we do before disposable containers? I mean, go back to drinking out of coconuts and shoes?! Or just our hands?!?!
And my disposable fast food containers.....
Paper.
Paper food containers work just fine. So do thicker -and thus reusable- plastic shopping bags. Your disposable pen is actually a quality item with long durability.
Coming from Europe i was stunned by the amount of thin plastic bags the USA customers consume. Walmart happily packs 1 bottle of soda in a plastic bag. Spending $50 gets you home with at least a dozen of useless plastic bags.
I'm used to buying a (slightly thicker) plastic bag for $0.15 that's actually usable several times (and i will, because i'm cheap), and will contain most of that $50 groceries in one bag. Alternatively, i bring my own sturdier bags. Sometimes filled with refund plastic bottles. Once you're used to it, it's really not such a big deal. And yes, we still have those thin plastics for certain goods, like fresh fruit or veggies.
I'm not saying our streets and highways are not littered with trash, cause they are.. Plastic drinking bottles or cans all around, cause people are *ssh*s. But removing those thin disposable plastic bags really does make a difference.
Re:In place of plastic bags.. (Score:4, Informative)
Coming from Europe i was stunned by the amount of thin plastic bags the USA customers consume. Walmart happily packs 1 bottle of soda in a plastic bag. Spending $50 gets you home with at least a dozen of useless plastic bags.
Most people reuse those bags as liners on small trash cans, but I do agree people tend to get a few too many.
Re:In place of plastic bags.. (Score:4, Informative)
Was about to mention similar... these bags more often than not get a second life around the household - as small trashcan liners, to package used cat litter (or any other animal waste), to toss stuff in that the kid has to take to school that day, as a quickie it of waterproofing for a small laptop bag, etc.
I can also agree that you end up with way too many... some stores often use a bag for like 1-2 items (while others cram it full... kind of a crap-shoot, truth be told.)
I much prefer the reusable bags (especially the insulated ones for cold stuff), but usually that's because it's 25 miles to the nearest grocery store, and you end up carrying the same amount of stuff in less bags when it comes time to drag it all into the house.
Re: (Score:2)
Stores used to have cardboard boxes available (ie left over from when they received deliveries)... These were much better for anyone who visited the store by car as they fit together in the back of the car much better than plastic bags which tend to slip around and spill their contents.
Bags are only useful for people on foot who have to carry them.
Re: In place of plastic bags.. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They still have them here. And yes I agree, they're much easier to handle when going by car. I do prefer them when I forgot my shopping bags, especially since I recycle them with the other waste paper I have
I prefer the thin plastic bags for the exact reason that it's easier to carry more in fewer trips. They have loop handles and the way they're designed it ends up being very easy to thread my fingers through the loops of a dozen or more bags. The limit on the amount I can carry in one trip from the car to the pantry is dictated more by arm strength than anything else, because I can load up both hands to the point that I can't lift either of them above my waist. I'm not a weightlifter, but neither am I partic
Re: In place of plastic bags.. (Score:2)
Still do offer cardboard boxes that can be used to carry groceries to the trunk of the car. There is nothing wrong with using paper bags that can be used a few times. Not all pro juice is going to soil those paper bags.
Plastic drinking straws are on their way out with waxed paper straws coming back. Is there any problem to drink a soda pop directly from the edge of the cup without the need of a straw? Let's see if ice cream parlors could make edible spoons.
When there is a will to come back plastic pollution
Re: (Score:2)
I'll add that not only animal waste, but used diapers are also a great thing to use these for.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, single reuse of the worst kind of plastic, the kind that breaks down into small pieces and enters the food cycle.
Banning them at least make people aware of alternatives, such as biodegradable bin liners. The rest of the plastic cycle of stupidity is the same. Ban straws and people may realise lips can do more than just making a duck face for instagram.
But ultimately we as a species are screwed. People can't think beyond what they are told to believe. It's like when my workplace tried to deal with it's
Re: (Score:2)
Even the reduced number we get in Europe is too many to use up around the house. I also prefer proper bin liner bags because as well as being stronger and leak-proof* they are larger so I have to empty them less often.
* Shopping bags have to have air holes in case kids put them over their heads.
Re: (Score:2)
Reusable bags are very common in the US now, despite everyone predicting doom and gloom. Charities send you more bags over time until have more than you need. I do have some old single-use bags from before the ban, but I keep those for use in my small wastebasket in the bathroom. However when I do take my reusable bags to grocery stores in other counties, they will give me odd looks like I'm from Mars.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, but those thick 15c bags need to be used at /least/ 50 times to be the same impact as the thin bags:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/201... [abc.net.au]
Plus, I never use the thin ones once, they're always bin liners or cat litter bags, or dog crap bags, etc. So that means the 15c one needs 100 uses.
I'd suggest that's unlikely verging on the ridiculous.
And the paper containers aren't much better, worse on some measures.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd suggest that's unlikely verging on the ridiculous.
Errm...why is that ridiculous?
I have plenty of those thicker ~$0.15 which are several years old...some are 10 years old. They have been used hundreds of times. Each such bag can be used for a year at least (and in reality, for many years), if you go grocery shopping at least twice a week (lowball estimate, most people visit the supermarket more often), and take the bag with you, that's 104 uses per year. Far from unlikely, and certainly not ridiculous.
Btw, reusing the thin plastic bags in whatever capacity
Re: (Score:2)
It's ridiculous because they get holes in them long before 10 years, and if you do have a 10 year old bag that's just more evidence that you buy a lot more thick plastic bags than you mean to because people forget them or shop opportunistically and don't always remember the bags. Certainly, driving home to get the bags you forgot would be more environmentally costly than a dozen thin ones.
The decomposition speed of plastic bags, both thick and thin, was included in the study.
Oh and your "low ball" estimate
Re: (Score:2)
OK, I realize that may be we are not talking about the same thing, as prices for these things vary from place to place.
You are probably referring to the slightly thicker and bigger plastic bags you would get for free when you buy something at a clothing or shoe store, but for which they charge you some small amount at supermarkets. I was mainly thinking of the much thicker, sturdier plastic bags/sacs. I agree that the former will usually not last for years, while the latter easily will (those are the ones t
Re: (Score:2)
I reuse the plastic bags all the time, from trash can liners to bringing my lunch in one until they fall apart, and its actually fairly rare around here to see them as litter
what does make a shit ton of litter around my area is paper, its freaking everywhere cause people get it bangged in to their head that they biodegrade so that must mean the second it touches the ground it goes poof into thin air
so the problem really is not the material in all cases, its fuckwits that do not understand to not throw their
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
the bags get recycled here as well, and most are some sort of corn base
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah! What DID we do before disposable containers? I mean, go back to drinking out of coconuts and shoes?! Or just our hands?!?!
And my disposable fast food containers.....
Paper.
Paper food containers work just fine....
Milk cartons, paper cups and paper food containers are made liquid-resistant by coating them with (can you guess?) plastic. While not IMPOSSIBLE to recycle, recycling is more difficult/expensive (and not all locales may have the necessary machinery/processes in place). They do not compost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic-coated_paper [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3)
>> What DID we do before disposable containers
Glass
Ceramic
Metal
Paper
Plastic(multi use)
etcetcetc...
Get used to it.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
OK, working on the assumption that this isn't a joke/troll/misplaced irony:
- supermarket purchases were put in paper bags - which were quite large and reinforced - or boxes - of which the supermarket has an oversupply for obvious reasons.
- glass bottles... ever heard of them?
- no, you do not need a straw. No-one needs a straw, ever.
- milk, juice etc came in waxed cardboard cartons that did the job just fine.
- ever heard of a pencil (wood and graphite) or a non-disposable pen?
In more recent news... are you
Re: (Score:3)
Also remember, we actually re-used those paper bags, because they weren't flimsy. Go a bit further back, I can remember one of my grandmothers with a small foldable grocery cart, of which I saw many in use in the neighborhood.
I remember some sturdy melamine type utensils, that you used in car hops (ie, those Happy Days type drive-ins). You didn't take them with you. Today at work we have biodegradable utensils that are cheap.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not my memory of paper bags,at all. lol I can count on one bag ripping or falling apart from some meat liquid and having all those nice groceries on the ground.every trip. I use cloth bags now don't rip they get messy watch them.
In my memory, they got used for kitchen trash sacks. Currently, they still do on the West Coast since most places have composting. Using paper grocery sacks is easier than buying compostable bags.
Re: (Score:2)
A friend with cerebal palsy needs to use a straw because - can't lift the cup to mouth without spilling all over.
But most people don't need straws.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
- no, you do not need a straw. No-one needs a straw, ever.
Tell that to someone who has had their broken jaw wired shut.
But waxed paper straws (or re-usable heavy duty plastic) also work.
Residents caught using? (Score:1)
What about going after the people who make/distribute the bags? If I see someone using (better yet, re-using) an item, that's a good thing. Now you are just going to encourage people to throw them out. In places that won't lead back to them.
When an Indian city is more progressive... (Score:1, Interesting)
than every city in the USA. What are we number one at again?
Re: (Score:1)
Idiocy maybe?
Have fun using your paper straws.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Sending people to jail, and imposing massive fines for something like plastic bags isn't "progressive", it's fascist. This sort of zero tolerance, clamp down hard stuff is insane. It seems like both ends of the political spectrum have gotten less and less tolerant, and more and more aggressive in whatever it is they don't like.
Re: (Score:1)
A glimpse into SJW rule.
Now report to your detention center for an attitude adjustment.
Re: (Score:1)
Reducing waste is fascist?
Have you fucking SEEN the Ganges? That's supposed to be a "sacred" river. It's horrible how much waste is in Indian cities.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The individual penalty is regressive affecting the ones who can least afford it. Do the wealthy do their own shopping? Go out to a fast food restaurant?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
They still poop in the street in that Indian city (this, sadly, is cold-hard fact).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, the law isn't forcing you to do that ... your inability to buy yourself some re-usable grocery bags is.
My wife and I have a stack of them, folded up and kept inside one of them ... when we go for groceries, we bring the bag because otherwise we'd have to pay for them. I think we paid about $0.99 each reusable bag, and they've all been used dozens if not hundreds of times, making their co
Re: (Score:2)
The reusable bags make sense when you make a planned trip to the grocery store...
But unless you carry reusable bags with you at all times, they are useless if you happen to make an unplanned trip to the store. That's my biggest annoyance, I usually don't make planned trips and just go when i need something.
Re: (Score:2)
One in your car, one in your bike, one in your office bag, one little one in your pocket. If still not sufficient, grocery stores sell some for a little money.
Re: (Score:2)
Pocket of what? Do you suggest always wearing the same clothes so you dont remember to take the bag?
In any case, my clothes often dont have much pocket space - wallet and phone about fills them so carrying more stuff becomes an inconvenience.
Re: When an Indian city is more progressive... (Score:2)
And you bought these clothes to get an excuse to use more one-time use plastic ?
Or at least bought them in an environment where you were not responsible for indirect cost of using one time use plastic?
Why is your lack of pockets a problem of the world ? Why can't you pay the cost of taking a bag from the car /home/bike for the privilege of wearing clothes without pockets ?
Ever heard of actions and consequences ?
Re: (Score:2)
Only the plastic bags from stores are not one time use, after using them to carry groceries many people then use them to hold trash. If plastic grocery bags are not available then i have to buy plastic trashbags instead, the amount of plastic being discarded is the same but the cost and inconvenience is increased.
Like many of these policies that are supposed to be about protecting the environment, they end up doing more harm than good.
Re: (Score:2)
Like many of these policies that are
Like your policy of wearing clothes without enough pockets that was formulated when such a law did not exist ? And you persist in the policy when the reality , under which the policy was formulated , changes so that you end up generating more plastic waste ?
You are the only one responsible for generating more plastic waste in this scenario - not the "policy". In general there may be policies that end up doing more bad than good, but it is on you this time.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: When an Indian city is more progressive... (Score:2)
Re:When an Indian city is more progressive... (Score:4, Funny)
You REUSE those bags! In europe those were one euro per bag. I get cloth bags send to me by some charities as a thank you give, and those last a very long time. If youre spending 10c every trip to get a bag, you're doing it wrong. There's nothing silly or unusual about the California rules.
Should be 1/2 of their income or jail (Score:1)
That would be more fair.
And, yes, there have been replacements for plastic bags for decades.
Re: (Score:2)
That would be more fair.
And, yes, there have been replacements for plastic bags for decades.
I'm guessing that 25K rupees is way more than 1/2 of the income of many people who live in Mumbai.
Excessive Money Grubbing by Government (Score:2)
"penalties of up to 25,000 rupees (~$365) and three months in jail from Monday."
That is excessive punishment.
This is the government using fines to raise revenues.
Government greed.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope.
This is the level where all people really take the matter instantly.
This is the level that really works.
So it won't really make bucks.
Re: (Score:2)
...and what's a few ruined lives in the process? (seriously - those are some pretty massive-assed fines for the average Indian.)
Even on a smaller scale, now the cost of groceries, take-out, whatever just went up.
Re: (Score:2)
No, it did not. You only think that because you've externalized the cost of disposing of single use plastic on the world/environment. Charge the appropriate fee for proper disposal, and it's likely this would be a money saving change.
Re: (Score:3)
There is no such cost (at least, none worth measuring). There is a cost to not disposing of them, however - letting them litter the streets, dumping them at sea, and so on. Really hard to keep assholes from dumping trash at sea, though.
Re: (Score:2)
The cost is in extracting the oil, refining it, manufacturing the plastic bag/straw complete with printed logo, transporting it to the shop, lining the bin to contain it when discarded, transporting the waste to landfill, dumping it, making the landfill site safe, and then at some point in the future dealing with the emissions from decaying plastic.
It may seem insignificant per individual item, but we are using billions of such items and much of that cost is difficult to directly measure. How much does secu
Re: (Score:2)
The cost per item is still trivial, accounting for everything, as long as the plastic makes it to a dump. No problem there. The real world problems we're seeing are from people who lack the basic decency to throw their trash away in the trash, or to not simply dump garbage at sea instead of delivering it to a dump.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope. This is the level when they pay 10% of the money to the police officer catching them and litter even more.
Stronger punishment rarely leads to higher compliance - more likelihood of getting caught has a far bigger effect. But strength of punishment is negatively correlated with likelihood of getting caught due to corruptibility of agents of law.
What about single-use intravenous lines? (Score:2)
Seattle has talked about banning them. That scares the hell out of me.
How are those not reusable? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've used a lot of plastic bags quite a few times.
I have a Fuji water bottle I bought at an airport that I like the size of, so I've been refilling it for a few years.
Almost anything CAN be reusable if you try. What a shame they are getting rid of some really useful items that took a long time for human to advance enough to produce.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Why not use a faucet filter (PUR, Brita, etc.)? They are rated at 100 gallons per filter and cost a lot less than $25. Also you wouldn't have to carry jugs of water home from the "water and ice" store.
Re: (Score:2)
Or just buy the Brita waterbottle with built in filter.
pet vs PET (Score:3)
The problem is 99.9999999 of the bottles aren't a "Pet bottle" like your's.
They are the trash that line our citie's surroundings.
They're PET bottles, not reusable, not recycled as a matter of fact.
I very much disagree - educational/practical issue (Score:2)
The problem is 99.9999999 of the bottles aren't a "Pet bottle" like your's.
Based on what I have seen I highly doubt the percentage of people re-using light plastic bottles is that low.
The biggest change around that has been airport bottle filling stations. I see people using those all the time when I fly from old plastic bottles. In fact old plastic bottles are BETTER for this when they are lighter, because they compact flat when empty until you are ready to re-fill.
So in India for example, you could have
Re: (Score:2)
>> So in India for example, you could have bottle filling stations all around a city an encourage people to use bottles multiple times
Doesn't work.
In these countries, people don't trust tap water.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is 99.9999999 of the bottles aren't a "Pet bottle" like yours
I assume you meant 99.9999999%. That would mean that only one out of every 1,000,000,000 bottles gets reused. That would mean that out of the 40B bottles used (and not recycled) in the US every year, only 40 of them get reused. Since I personally know a dozen or so people who do this regularly, you've got to be off by a few orders of magnitude.
(Yes, I'm making a pedantic point about your excessive number of nines. Yes, I know you d
Because most people use them once (Score:3)
You have to consider what the majority of people are going to do and not what a few outliers do when you make policy.
Re: (Score:2)
Dunno... BPA would keep me out of doing that. I'll settle for an actual cup.
Re: (Score:2)
how much of that bottle has leached into you so far?
If you are worried about that, fear "reusable". (Score:2)
how much of that bottle has leached into you so far?
As far as I'm concerned this fear of plastic "leeching" into you in any quantity is right up there with anti-vaxxer nonsense.
I've used the same bottle for years, and there is absolutely no change in structural strength or even appearance nor taste in the water I fill the bottle with. So how much of it could possibly have "leeched" into me - not to mention that plastic is wholly inert anyway, and even if I chose to eat the bottle it would simply flow throu
Re: (Score:1)
I have a Fuji water bottle I bought at an airport that I like the size of, so I've been refilling it for a few years.
Based on the water bottles I've seen recently (seriously conference venues: quit with the free plastic bottled water and just put out some glasses and a jug already!) they seem to have move to some sort of super-flimsy plastic that I'd think twice about using more than once for fear of leaks.
Almost anything CAN be reusable if you try.
Agreed. Sadly most people seem to work by the logic that things that are cheap/free (or "just" a container you bought something in) then it should be tossed out. Otherwise we wouldn't need tax incentives, bans etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Based on the water bottles I've seen recently (seriously conference venues: quit with the free plastic bottled water and just put out some glasses and a jug already!)
Glasses at a concert venue? The death toll would be massive. There's a reason most festivals ban any sort of glass container.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is most people don't reuse them. And if you get a plastic nalgene bottle is lasts much longer than a plastic "disposable" one and is much easier to clean.
Re: (Score:2)
I've used a lot of plastic bags quite a few times.
Out of necessity or out of environmental courtesy? One thing we have learnt over the years is that latter doesn't work. The one person who looks after the environment won't offset the other who runs his heater in one room, AC in the other and leaves the door open between them.
Banning plastic bags forces this issue towards necessity. I too had a re-use bag when I go shopping. I have for many years. I also used biodegradable bin liners. Yet when shops started charging for plastic bags years back people though
I don't understand. (Score:5, Funny)
and the threat of three months' jail for those caught repeatedly using single-use plastics.
If people are repeatedly using them, they're not single-use plastics, by definition.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Repeatedly using does not mean reusing the same bags in the context of the topic. There is a difference.
For example, I can repeatedly use pencils to stab you, or I can stab you repeatedly with the same pencil. Still don't understand?
Re: (Score:2)
Dogs? (Score:4, Insightful)
So when you walk your dog - where do you put the poo? In nice breathable paper sacks?
Re: (Score:3)
So when you walk your dog - where do you put the poo?
You let the blue-coated inspector stop you and you happily surrender your full bags to them.
Re: (Score:2)
You let it decompose in the forest, like any other animal's poo.
Re: (Score:1)
Because of additives to dog food now, dog feces just doesn't decompose like it used to. I live in Seattle and have several neighbors that let their dog poop in my front yard and on my porch. There's a lot of dog feces that have been there for over a year that haven't broken down yet.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Biodegradable ones. Shit man put at least some token effort into engaging your brain rather than (literally) shitting on the environment.
I predict ... (Score:3)
...lots of Tupperware parties.
Re: (Score:2)
Or Bollywoodware for that matter
Correction.. Its the whole state of Maharashtra (Score:4, Informative)
I live in Pune, about 120km east of Mumbai and its the same. Its strange not to get straws to drink soda in McDonalds now. But a good change anyways. The country is getting littered way too much.
Re: (Score:2)
I have another idea. Instead of banning plastic and hiring people to patrol, why don't they just hire people to clean up the litter?
priorities! (Score:2)
drinking from a plastic cup can get you 3 months in jail, all the while nothing much is done about the rape problem they have.
Nice. Like it. (Score:2)
Let's see how this plays out. Humanity as a whole needs to move towards zero-garbage. Like, fast.
A doorstep country showing the first world how it is done is a nice thing indeed.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope.
Using and overusing plastic bags is an obvious lack of respect and should be punished.
Re: (Score:2)
Sending someone to jail over a plastic bag (even repeatedly) sounds an awful lot like fascism to me.
You have a wrong understanding of what fascism is.
Fascism is a right-wing nationalism where corporations and government are in bed with each other. That's pretty much the opposite of what we see here.
Were you thinking of "police state", perhaps?
Re:More worried about the container clean water co (Score:4, Informative)
Worse than you think: Some of those rivers get half-burned human (and various un-burned animal) corpses dumped into them on a very regular basis (and if we're talking about the Ganges, we're talking near-industrial-scale corpse-dumping), let alone the massive amount of un/semi-treated sewage.
I guess this little step is better than no step, but yeah, you're right... there are way bigger problems that could be addressed here.
Nigh impossible to address (Score:2)
ashes (Score:2)
You have no clue what gets dumped into the river, do you ? Only the ashes and big bones that do not disintegrate even in a large fire are dumped. A 70 kg human body leaves behind much less than 1 kg stuff to be dumped. Thin / weak people leave a fistful.
For all purposes of hygiene , that part can be licked by babies and nothing much would happen except some nourishment. Calling it half-burned displays your colossal ignorance.
Anyway it is far more environmentally sustainable than burying dead bodies in the g