Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Firefox Android Businesses Google The Internet

Firefox and the 4-Year Battle To Have Google To Treat It as a First-Class Citizen (zdnet.com) 319

Web monoculture is well and truly alive when Google cannot be bothered to make a full-featured cross-browser mobile search page. From a report: It has been over five years since Firefox really turned a corner and started to morph from its bloated memory-munching ways into the lightning-quick browser it is today. Buried in Mozilla's issue tracker is a bug that kicked off in February 2014, and is yet to be resolved: Have Google treat Firefox for Android as a first-class citizen and serve up comparable content to what the search giant hands Chrome and Safari. After years of requests, meetings, and to and fro, it has hit a point where the developers of Firefox are experimenting by manipulating the user agent string in its nightly development builds to trick Google into thinking that Firefox Mobile is a Chrome browser. Not only does Google's search page degrade for Firefox on Android, but some new properties like Google Flights have occasionally taken to outright blocking of the browser.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Firefox and the 4-Year Battle To Have Google To Treat It as a First-Class Citizen

Comments Filter:
  • Anti-Trust (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:13AM (#56914694)

    Sounds like a good case for an anti-trust suit.

  • by CaptQuark ( 2706165 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:14AM (#56914702)
    I thought the days of delivering different content depending on the brand of browser was over. I guess some companies still think it is OK to provide different content to different platforms.

    --
    • Tor Browser conspicuously features duckduckgo.com as the preferred search engine.

      Microsoft provides search services for Duck Duck Go, so much that Bing's results are commonly identical. Firefox can and should promote Bing in all of it's guises.

      The startpage.com search engine appears to be based in Europe, and seems to continue to outsource to Google although this branding was recently removed from the home page.

      It is Firefox that should demote Google to a second-class citizen, immediately opening an incogni

  • Firefox is best browser i have ever use. But need some improvement like use Language translation option. So, we can read all language articles, news, and more things. Add this feature to firefox.
    • by Curtman ( 556920 ) *
      I used Firefox for years before switching to Chrome. Recently I decided to give it another try. On my MacBook the battery longevity goes to somewhere about half of what it is without Firefox open, and it becomes uncomfortably hot. On Android I get warnings about Firefox draining my battery and finding myself locating a charger several times a day. I'm not sure what is going on there, but I'm highly disappointed. Everything else about the browser is great, but it's a showstopper.
  • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:17AM (#56914712)

    It was bad 10 years ago, when pages were “best viewed in Internet Explorer”. The fact that nowadays it’s Google Chrome rather than IE doesn’t make it any less bad.

    Code your web pages using web standards, guys. Then, if things are broken in a particular browser - submit a bug report.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:19AM (#56914718)

    And I don't miss anything. Use ixquick, duckduckgo, searx. Don't use Google, period.

    It takes some time to get used to (with no tracking, the search engine knows less about you, that means you've got to think a bit more about your search terms), but who wants to degenerate into some kind of jellyfish attached to Google? Remember: their business model depends on this happening, whereas your sanity depends on this not happening. Google and you are not allies!

    • whereas your sanity depends on this not happening.

      Too late. Google not only owns my soul, but now-a-days actually IS my soul.... and sanity's overrated anyway.

  • by RyanFenton ( 230700 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:37AM (#56914754)

    ...In the same way Trump is getting 'respect' from Putin. Trying to imitate your competitor absolutely and completely is no way to help either of you. The only thing you're going to get in return is mild amusement from your competition, and an audience confused about what you're even trying to offer them.

    Killing plugins/statusbar/etc. was basically sabotaging everything that made Firefox hold an advantage. Trying to compete as a Chrome clone, just makes it useless as a choice.

    I'll stick with Firefox 56 until a new browser based on that version takes off.

    Ryan Fenton

    • Killing plugins/statusbar/etc. was basically sabotaging everything that made Firefox hold an advantage. Trying to compete as a Chrome clone, just makes it useless as a choice.

      A chrome clone? Let me know when chrome supports noscript, and then let me know when it supports noscript on mobile.

    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      I've switched to waterfox, best of both worlds, 1 of about 25 plugins stopped working (image-zoom).

  • by swell ( 195815 ) <jabberwock@poetic.com> on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:39AM (#56914764)

    Does anyone get respect from Google search? I search for two words, word1 and word2, and right there on page 1 of the results are many that don't include one of the necessary words. Farther down are words that are similar but wrong. And, still on page 1 of the results are finds that include neither word. Some results have oriental characters and no English at all.

    Google says there are 52,200 results. I click on the last page and it says "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 300 already displayed.", except that there were less than 200 hits, very few of which matched the criteria.

    Google used to inform users of the size of each web page in the results. A search result that was 10K bytes might be a good hit, but a search result page that was 4MB was probably a spam page with a long list of random words.

    Much additional information was available about each search result that is now denied us. Those of us who haven't forgotten know that the information is available. Google has simply decided not to give it to us. After all these years is there no competitor that can replicate the original search engine and give Google some competition?

    • Google used to inform users of the size of each web page in the results. A search result that was 10K bytes might be a good hit, but a search result page that was 4MB was probably a spam page with a long list of random words.

      Sadly, these days it's not too surprising for a page to actually be 4MB.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:17AM (#56915060) Homepage Journal

      Google does this because the old search engines that didn't do it were all crap and died off.

      Google understands synonyms, acronyms and related concepts. It understands multiple languages and offers translation services so that you can too.

      Turns out, that is better than just vomiting out the results of a database query on the search terms in almost every case.

      Where it tends to fail is when someone tries to subvert it by using 1998-style search terms, e.g. "WORD1" AND "WORD2". Maybe they need a retro mode. Or try one of the following terrible search engines instead:

      http://www.excite.com/ [excite.com]
      http://www.aliweb.com/ [aliweb.com]

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Google understands synonyms, acronyms and related concepts

        No it bloody does not! It has a serious case of Dunning-Kruger when thinking about the subject. Google search mostly returns a pile of utter garbage, unless you want to buy a fashion item on Amazon (I presume - I don't buy fashion items, and don't use Amazon).

        A cage full of deranged hamsters could probably return better results using systemd.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Can you provide an example of a Google search that produces "utter garbage", and ideally another site that gives better results or at least some idea of what you wanted.

    • Does anyone get respect from Google search? I search for two words, word1 and word2, and right there on page 1 of the results are many that don't include one of the necessary words. Farther down are words that are similar but wrong. And, still on page 1 of the results are finds that include neither word. Some results have oriental characters and no English at all.

      I face the same struggles with Google almost every day. You CAN get better results. Put the terms that you need an exact match for between double quotes. Type allintext: at the beginning of your terms to get hits that contain ALL of your terms. I've noticed lately that Google is starting to ignore these to some extent; but results are still far, far better than if you give them carte blanche to use their thoroughly inept mind-reading algorithms and their laughable thesaurus entries.

      Much additional information was available about each search result that is now denied us.

      You can get back some of

  • We wouldn't (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Vinegar Joe ( 998110 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:42AM (#56914772)

    Be going thru this bullshit if Microsoft had been crushed in court like it should have been in the late 90s.

  • by xack ( 5304745 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @01:46AM (#56914782)
    Chrome should never have been allowed to gain a dominant market share. But Firefox conceded market share with dropping XUL and its numerous UI “experiments” too. Google should be forced to have a “browser choice” screen on Android to give other browsers a chance.
    • by t0y ( 700664 )
      Firefox's market share was already bad enough before XUL was dropped. If anything, you could argue that keeping XUL for that long took market share away.
      • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @04:06AM (#56915188) Journal

        Realistically I think Firefox lost market share because every time users searched for something with the default search engine they were offered a 'faster' browser. And google also advertises chrome outside of the internet, advertising works. Are there any polls on this that don't just poll techies?

        • I tend to agree with this too.
          I never really used Chrome so I don't know if at any point it was much better than Firefox. I think it used to be a lot faster than the fox but I still think that the omnipresent publicity may have helped a great deal in making Chrome the majority browser.
        • by Kjella ( 173770 )

          Realistically I think Firefox lost market share because every time users searched for something with the default search engine they were offered a 'faster' browser. And google also advertises chrome outside of the internet, advertising works. Are there any polls on this that don't just poll techies?

          I think it's be very hard to get a representative poll on why the whole Internet went one way or the other, but it's not like Firefox was the vastly superior option that got buried by Google's marketing. It was one huge monolithic process with memory leaks and if you ran a number of extensions - supposedly the big advantage - it could be absolutely terrible. And one bad page causing a lock-up or a bug could kill your entire session. I'd been using Firefox since it was the Phoenix like version 0.6 or somethi

        • What you say may be true for some. The only thing pushing me away from Firefox is Firefox itself. The ONLY reason I am using it right now to post this is because noscript still seems to work. If it did not, I would be on the sickeningly invasive Chrome.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Most Android devices don't ship with Chrome as the default browser, precisely because Microsoft was punished for trying to make it a requirement of shipping Windows with PCs. It's up to the manufacturer, and lots of them do include different browsers.

    • Chrome should never have been allowed to gain a dominant market share. But Firefox conceded market share with dropping XUL and its numerous UI “experiments” too. Google should be forced to have a “browser choice” screen on Android to give other browsers a chance.

      But ... but ... "Pocket"!!

  • Whined about it on this very site for a solid 5 years. Really really loved a lot of things about it, infact almost everything except performance, it's woeful when you load it up with many many tabs (chrome, is not like this)

    Sadly, they fixed the performance issue, by destroying all their plugins and switching plugin types, so I've stopped using it.

    As for mobile systems, well that's sad too. Firefox is awful on mobile, just the interactivity with opening a tab. I tend to hold down "open in new backgroun

    • by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @02:39AM (#56914954) Journal

      Sadly, they fixed the performance issue, by destroying all their plugins and switching plugin types, so I've stopped using it.

      No they didn't destroy all the extensions and many of the popular ones are long since back up and running. Noscript for example.

      As for mobile systems, well that's sad too. Firefox is awful on mobile, just the interactivity with opening a tab.

      works for me (tm). and it's the only way of getting Javascript-free browsing on android that I know of.

      • by AbRASiON ( 589899 ) * on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:19AM (#56915070) Journal

        Tab me plus is critical for me, utterly critical, took 3 Chrome plugins to replicate it, but it's behaving as intended now.

        Firefox it's unstable and Alpha, for the new plugin framework

        Firefox mobile is atrocious, I do not know how you use this at all, as stated the sensitivity and hold down time, click detection for opening the context menu on a url is AWFUL. Chrome leaves it for dead on mobile.

        I suspect Firefox is to be gone in the next few years, sad. I loved it very very much and was a die DIE hard supporter for a very long time, but too little, too late.

        • Thank god for dark mode on FF.
          Google and others, WHITE SUCKS

          White websites are shit.

          Its so yahoo 1999.

          Yeah - slashdot too, ugly as fuck as its white - great with plugin making it dark.

          White is ass shite ugly.

        • Tab me plus is critical for me, utterly critical, took 3 Chrome plugins to replicate it

          So you're going to just leave us all hanging?

          This is just like the TV series Firefly, except with shiny silver foxes.

        • Tab me plus is critical for me, utterly critical, took 3 Chrome plugins to replicate it, but it's behaving as intended now.

          Were you able to get multiple rows of tabs on Chrome? That's the feature I miss most after Tab Mix Plus got axed by the new Firefox "improvements".

        • All I can really say to this is that clearly not everyone feels as you do. Firefox is my daily driver on Android, in part because I'm able to use little things like uBlock Origin and Dark Background And Light Text.

          The click and hold for context menu has always worked just fine for me, and without any indications of how it's "AWFUL" (Too slow? Too sensitive? Too large a detection area? Too small a detection area?) it'd be hard for someone to fix it.

          I do pop into Chrome for some things, particularly things th
      • F-Droid has a browser implemented with the system Webview that disables Javascript by default, and gives you a one-button enable.

        Privacy Browser [f-droid.org] does not offer extensions, but it does have a few more useful features, including blocklists and Tor integration.

        I hope that you find it useful.

  • Seriously, even the threat will have Google doing anything to accommodate. They have a business model based entirely on a search monopoly. They'll put a lot of effort into keeping it.
    • Or click on ads and don't buy anything. There is that option. And no, it's not click fraud.
      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        Ads don't need to be clicked to be effective.
        A big part of advertisement is brand awareness, they just want you to know that their product exist. That your actually buy stuff through the link is just icing on the cake.
        There are also different way advertisers pay for ads: per click or per impression. For the second one, clicking doesn't matter, advertisers just pay just to be visible, and bogus click won't change anything. For the "per click" pricing, bogus clicks may decrease the value of a click to compens

  • Sigh. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ledow ( 319597 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @02:46AM (#56914978) Homepage

    User-Agent headers, and browser fingerprinting in general, are the worst idea ever made for the web.

    Seriously, put up standardised content. If it doesn't display, either you code is not-to-standard, or their device is. Guess who suffers? The party who skimped on their implementation (i.e. you because your website doesn't work for your customers, or them because they can't get on standard websites that others can).

    The second we said "Okay, so what are you accessing it on, so I can fix my rubbish site to take account of your particular quirks", we lost the point of the web.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      https://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/

    • Browser fingerprinting is big business. Tor Browser constantly throws warning dialogs for sites using the canvas element in attempts to uniquely identify your machine.

      Tor Browser also warns you not to maximize it, as your monitor size is also useful tracking information.

  • by ytene ( 4376651 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:18AM (#56915064)
    One of the big issues with restrictive access to web content concerns video. There are so many sites [MSNBC, CNN, Top Gear, others] where Firefox simply doesn't work, yet pretty much everything on YouTube does.

    I think this is simply a case of lack of support for HTML5 standards. Well, that and the fact that it also locks out the non-Windows, non-Mac community.

    Good to see that all those tax dollars we put towards anti-trust protections for citizens are well spent...
  • by Anonymous Coward

    And once again history repeats itself. Microsoft stole the crown of evil from IBM back in the late 80s-early 90s, now Google has conclusively stolen the mantle for themselves by doing the exact same anticompetitive bullshit.

    I wonder who the next one will be, and how long it will take Google to stop being evil (a point which IBM have already reached; Windows 10's slurping shows that MS aren't there yet).

  • by LaughingRadish ( 2694765 ) on Monday July 09, 2018 @06:30AM (#56915488) Journal

    Does anyone remember how Microsoft played similar games with DR-DOS by deliberately making their programs crash, complain, or do strange things when said programs noticed that the operating system was DR-DOS rather than MS-DOS? It's the same thing but with different players.

  • Relevant XKCD (Score:2, Insightful)

    by The123king ( 2395060 )
    Relevent XKCD [xkcd.com]
  • Stop being a d*ckhead Google, fix your shit.

Wherever you go...There you are. - Buckaroo Banzai

Working...