The US is Facing a Serious Shortage of Airline Pilots (cnn.com) 428
An anonymous reader shares a report: The national security of the United States relies on a healthy airline industry. That requires modern reliable airplanes -- and highly skilled pilots to operate them. However, the United States has a shortage of pilots right now, particularly at the regional airline levels. According to the Federal Aviation Administration, there were about 827,000 pilots in America in 1987. Over the past three decades, that number has decreased by 30%. Meanwhile, during this period, there has been a tremendous increase in the demand for air travel. The International Air Transport Association predicts that, over the next 20 years, air travel will double.
This is a classic case of low supply and high demand. This mismatch has created a perfect storm that could wreak havoc on the US airline industry over the next decade. The somber news is this shortage is going to get much worse. I have not only studied and researched the airline industry since 1978, but I also was a pilot for 19 years, before going back to academia in 2006.
In the 1970s, when most of today's airline pilots like myself were growing up, piloting for an airline was considered a prestigious career. The job offered not only high salaries and nice schedules with many days off, but also a respected position in society. In the early 1990s, pilot salaries approached $300,000 in today's dollars for some international pilots. What's more, during this time, the military had a steady and consistent demand for pilots. A young aspiring aviator could go into the military to receive all of his or her flight training. Once these pilots had fulfilled their military commitment, they were almost guaranteed a good job flying for a major airline. Today, this is no longer the case. The career of the airline pilot has lost its luster.
This is a classic case of low supply and high demand. This mismatch has created a perfect storm that could wreak havoc on the US airline industry over the next decade. The somber news is this shortage is going to get much worse. I have not only studied and researched the airline industry since 1978, but I also was a pilot for 19 years, before going back to academia in 2006.
In the 1970s, when most of today's airline pilots like myself were growing up, piloting for an airline was considered a prestigious career. The job offered not only high salaries and nice schedules with many days off, but also a respected position in society. In the early 1990s, pilot salaries approached $300,000 in today's dollars for some international pilots. What's more, during this time, the military had a steady and consistent demand for pilots. A young aspiring aviator could go into the military to receive all of his or her flight training. Once these pilots had fulfilled their military commitment, they were almost guaranteed a good job flying for a major airline. Today, this is no longer the case. The career of the airline pilot has lost its luster.
Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
I know, that's crazy talk.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Funny)
Here's a thought: they could try paying pilots decently, and giving them reasonable work schedules.
I know, that's crazy talk.
The starting wage for a pilot at a major carrier is $70-80 an hour with the ability to have a contractually guaranteed minimum of 70-80 hours a month. Pilots with seniority can easily makes $250k in a year before bonuses or profit sharing. Regionals currently pay about $50-60k yearly plus sign-up and retention bonuses. The issue isn't the pay or the work rules. The issue is requiring 1000-1500 hours of flight time before you can get an ATP certification which is a requirement to work for a commercial passenger airline. Before the changes after the Colgan Air crash you only needed 250 hours to be an FO with a regional carrier.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
$50-60k/year is garbage for a skilled technical field that requires travel 100% of the time. Pay the pilots more and the shortage will go away. Also, the airlines should start paying for training programs if they really want pilots - just like other industries need to train operators for manufacturing plants, IT staff, or maintenance workers.
why train when they can get an 100K student loan (Score:2)
why train when they can get an 100K student loan to cover it.
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You can't get student loans to cover it. Student loans are only for education, not experience. You need 1500 hours of experience. That cost is on you.
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and, unless the Military paid for it, that cost is quite expensive.
You want to see ludicrous ? Go price what it will cost to be a commercial helicopter pilot.
Re:why train when they can get an 100K student loa (Score:5, Funny)
coming soon, we must increase rates... also more h1b pilots needed....
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coming soon, we must increase rates... also more h1b pilots needed....
I know you were being sarcastic, but yes, this will require airlines to increase rates. Pilots aren't a huge part of an airlines labor force, but if airlines are forced to invest in training/apprenticeships to bring new pilots into the system, and to raise pay to make it a more appealing career, that will raise their costs, and they will seek to pass it along to their customers.
Since deregulation, airlines have been a very low margin business, so they don't have lots of ability to absorb the increased cost
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Hmm...have you heard about all the foreign plane crashes past few years?
From everything I've read, at many foreign airports, especially where H1-B's would come from....they are a chaotic mess, not something we'd want to import "here"....that and language barrier between them and control towers.
Re:why train when they can get an 100K student loa (Score:5, Insightful)
> h1b pilots
Other countries don't have shortages because they get paid a lot more. Why the hell would anyone want to get a visa to be a pilot here?
Re:why train when they can get an 100K student loa (Score:5, Insightful)
why train when they can get an 100K student loan to cover it.
100K isn't going to get you enough flight time to fly charters and is only a drop in the bucket towards the 1500 minimum hours to be an ATP. Especially when a small twin engine is going to run you $150+/hour and a flight instructor another $80. It's going to take YEARS to accrue enough flight time and at least $300K in flying expenses.
By my rough calculations you will blow a quarter of a million dollars in flight time and at least 5 years of living time before you can manage to land a charter pilot gig at about 800 hours. Then, it will take you another 5 years of being a busy charter pilot to get you near 1,500 hours, but you will be destitute trying to service your debt on that salary. Once you get to 1,500, you have the option of taking a ATP job with a feeder airline, flying awful routes in shoddy old aircraft for another 5-10 years before you can land a job at one of the majors, with 15 years experience and about 3,000 hours of time.
The pilot gig is not a comfortable one. You got to really love what you do to live like a pauper working the night shift away from home until you are 35 or older.
Re:why train when they can get an 100K student loa (Score:4, Interesting)
Charters are going to take pilots that have turbine time and are type rated. FEW charter companies will touch you under 3,000 hours, and none will foot the bill for type ratings or check rides until you actually are their employee. That's on you. You *might* get some time flying specialized cargo or short passenger runs, but that's not going to be a regular paying job. Being a CFI would be much better for that, but that means you have to find a bunch of students with money, and all those PIC hours will mostly be single engine non-complex.
Flying piston aircraft for charters or cargo is a low probability because there simply isn't enough of that kind of thing going on here in the states. Nobody flies piston aircraft for cargo or charter, not anymore. Turbine gigs for cargo are even more limited. Why? FedX requires an ATP rating, UPS is similar and they fly nearly ALL the freight out there now.
Flying banners is an option, but there are not that many hours available for that as there are few places where this happens much. Where I live, they fly banners about 2 months out of the year because of the weather. Competition for these hours is going to be fierce because there are a LOT of guys with 500 hours dying to get PIC hours for free.
All in all, it's *really* hard to get enough PIC time without significant amounts of debt.
Personally, I think Airlines would be advised to supplement such business activities to get pilots enough hours to get their ratings, say supplement cargo businesses for low volume and unusual routes. Maybe they could supplement flight training schools or individual students and build a feeder program designed to get pilots hours built up at less cost to the students. Maybe provide promising pilots other working positions with suitable hours and access to low cost flight schools to allow them to quickly build hours and move into meaningful flying work sooner and faster.
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Yes, because hiring inexperience pilots to fly their $100-400 million aircraft sounds like an extremely good investment to me...
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Informative)
That is for 80 hours a month. Our normal work jobs in the us have us ordinary folks working 160 hours a month.
The hourly rate is well into the normal 6 figure if working full time.
Higher pay and benefits may help, but I expect the crazy hours, and being away for home on long day stretches factor in too. What is the point in making a lot of money if you are living like homeless bum, because you are never home.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
Those 80 hours a month are flight time. That doesn’t take into account the time preparing the flight, the time on the ground between flights, and the time finishing up after the last flight. That brings you pretty close to the amount of time “ordinary folks” work, and then that doesn’t even take the crazy schedules into account. Early shifts, late shifts, weekends equivalent to weekdays,...
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
Also worth noting that an airline pilot has huge responsibilities. It means you can't afford not to be in perfect condition to start flying. And that's hard to keep up with all these irregular schedules.
There is a moral responsibility and written rules. For example, there are mandatory health checkups, zero tolerance for alcohol, etc...
There is on-call duty too, where you have to be ready to get to the airport within an hour or so.
It used to be a demanding but rewarding job. Today, it is still demanding but less rewarding.
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Pilots get to rush to a company sleep facility that is like a crappy motel. Probably has several people sleeping there, but coming and going at all hours so that nobody really gets good sleep.
Pilots don't get to party with alcohol.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Informative)
That is for 80 hours a month. Our normal work jobs in the us have us ordinary folks working 160 hours a month....
I'm a regional airline pilot and work well over 160 hours a month for between 80 -100 hours of flight pay. I have worked many 14+ hour days where I only get 4.5 - 5 hours of pay. The rest of the time is aircraft swaps, delays, maintenance, weather, time between legs (airport appreciation), ready reserve, etc.
The only reason people work for low pay at a regional is the carrot of being able to move on to a legacy airline such as Delta, United, America, etc and being able to earn a middle-class living. But there's no clear path to a legacy carrier. Some promise flow through, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. You apply and hope to get invited for an interview and maybe a job. When the economy goes down the tubes, a lot of legacy pilots wind up back at the regionals and take a 70% pay cut to just keep flying. I'm considering going to Asia as a plan B.
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time between legs (airport appreciation)
I "appreciate" my time in airports too. The air is always bitterly cold and life sapping dry. There the vending machines are constantly empty, the coffee is overpriced, and if the shops have fruit for sale its over ripe. There's always a TV to watch for entertainment, where you can choose from CNN, Weather Channel, or Arrivals and Departures.
When the economy goes down the tubes, a lot of legacy pilots wind up back at the regionals and take a 70% pay cut to just keep flying. I'm considering going to Asia as a plan B.
I hope that you choose to stay but I wish you clear skies wherever the winds take you.
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Unfortunately that is no longer a thing
Sorry, flight attendant poontang.
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$50-60k/year is garbage for a skilled technical field that requires travel 100% of the time. Pay the pilots more and the shortage will go away. Also, the airlines should start paying for training programs if they really want pilots - just like other industries need to train operators for manufacturing plants, IT staff, or maintenance workers.
But that's $50K a year for half-time work and when you only need to drive to work a few times a month (assuming you're doing long-hauls with overnight stays), you can live well outside of expensive cities.
That makes the pay more attractive.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, while it is half time work, most of your other time is spent somewhere you probably don't really want to be in yet another cookie cutter hotel room with only the contents of your suitcase.
In other words, a lot like being at work.
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But that's $50K a year for half-time work and when you only need to drive to work a few times a month (assuming you're doing long-hauls with overnight stays), you can live well outside of expensive cities.
That makes the pay more attractive.
Long hauls are the most desirable routes, and routes are usually bid according to seniority. A captain on an A-320 flying Detroit to Hong Kong has a very different work life than a first officer on a Bombardier regional jet working for a feeder airline, flying Chicago to Iowa City to Fargo to Duluth.
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But that's $50K a year for half-time work and when you only need to drive to work a few times a month (assuming you're doing long-hauls with overnight stays), you can live well outside of expensive cities.
That makes the pay more attractive.
Long hauls are the most desirable routes, and routes are usually bid according to seniority. A captain on an A-320 flying Detroit to Hong Kong has a very different work life than a first officer on a Bombardier regional jet working for a feeder airline, flying Chicago to Iowa City to Fargo to Duluth.
PEDANTIC ALERT!!!!
There is no way an A320 would ever be assigned to a Detroit-Hong Kong route. The range isn't there, and it isn't ETOPS certified.
The distance from Detroit, MI to Hong Kong is approximately 12,620 km. The typical range of an Airbus A320 with 150 passengers is around 6,100 km.
Any captain scheduled to fly such a route should look for a transfer immediately, not matter what the pay is!
Since you're being pedantic, the A320 does have ETOPS-180 certification, which AFAIK is sufficient for DTW-Hong Kong.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroo... [airbus.com]
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Who the hell trains IT staff? Where do I sign up?
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
If the power supply in a production server catches fire, best practice is to schedule a meeting to determine whether DevOps should fix it, or whether the software team can issue a software patch to correct the issue.
The result of the meeting will be that the software team should rush out an untested patch which will set the redundant power supply on fire as well.
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My advice, look up the word "shortage." You're only arguing there is no shortage.
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Because there IS NO shortage. If there was actually a shortage of pilots then flights would have to be cancelled. No cancelled flights due to lack of pilots means no shortage. If it gets to the point when there is an actual shortage, THEN it will be a competitive advantage to pay more. Paying more NOW is a competitive disadvantage.
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Cancellations happen due to short term unpredictable things.
For long term predictable factors there's no need to cancel, because you wouldn't (and couldn't) schedule it in the first place.
work 'em to death, it's cheaper... (Score:5, Insightful)
Better to make the pilots we have work more hours for the same pay.
No possible downside to that.
Re:work 'em to death, it's cheaper... (Score:5, Funny)
Nah. Better to make the pilots we have work more hours for the same pay.
Can't. The FAA put a piloting limit of 1000 flight hours per year, to limit pilot fatigue.
that meddling government, always taking profit away from businesses just because "safety". People should be allowed to fly unsafe airlines if they want to save some dollars, it's their right.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
It is not a right to fucking crash airplanes, you moron. That right is reserved for only the US Government when we need an impetus to attack the world nonstop and coincidentally, to strip citizens of their rights.
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Taking a cue from the trucking industry. Pay peanuts so there's an incentive for drivers to stay on the road longer than they're legally allowed to be. (Sleep? Sleep is for chumps.) Nobody in management ever pays the price for what goes wrong.
Better yet, DON'T take any advice from the trucking industry. They are also experiencing a shortage of workers. They have been for years but, in recent times, this shortage has become acute enough that it's starting to affect the logistics chain for many companies and even prices for some items in your local store. Companies are responding with 5-figure signing bonuses but it's like closing the barn door after the horse already escaped. The problems in the industry have been allowed to fester for far too lo
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We need self flying planes. Oh wait we already do. Pilots work for 15 minutes at takeoff and 15 minutes at landing. The rest is autopilot.
Not even close, but let's assume that's true.
They are getting paid to be on call. Its very much like being a Fireman.
If you want me to be ready to put out those fires 30 minutes of every day then you have to pay me to sit on my thumbs for the rest of the day or I'll go find something else to do. My time is money. For someone with training as a pilot makes them very valuable for a lot of non-flying jobs. Airline pilots often have a college degree in mechanical engineering or something similar so they can get a jump on the technical training they'll see in flight school and lo
Cost of pilots, cost of tickets (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay the pilots more and they will find they don't need pilots because nobody is flying on their airline as the tickets cost more.
What fraction of the price of an airline ticket is the price of paying the pilot? Quick back of the envelope calculation: somewhere around 1%. I'm guessing that a 1% change in ticket prices won't make much of a difference.
Re:Cost of pilots, cost of tickets (Score:5, Informative)
Something tells me that they'd never even bother to ask the passengers whether 1% would put them off flying. According to one pizza chain, paying their employees a livable minimum wage would result in pizzas costing something like $0.17 more and the CEO claimed he'd have to lay people off because a wage increase was going to do the company in. Does anyone doubt that the airlines' C-level execs knee-jerk reaction would not be anything but screaming and shouting about government regulation?
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:4, Interesting)
So is it better to pay pilots and raise ticket prices?
If there really is a pilot shortage then ticket prices are going to rise anyway because there will be a limited number of flights that can be operated by all airlines combined.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Informative)
If there really is a pilot shortage then ticket prices are going to rise anyway because there will be a limited number of flights that can be operated by all airlines combined.
True but what will really happen is airlines will shut down flying unprofitable or marginally profitable routes in order to concentrate on the profitable ones. There will be fewer planes (but they'll always be full instead of partially filled) needing fewer pilots. I'm not saying this is good for the average customer. I'm saying this is what will happen. I used to work at at airline so I know how they operate. They know exactly how profitable each flight is. Triage will mandate they cull money-losing routes first since they only exist to feed people to more profitable routes. Next will be the marginal routes for exactly the same reason.
Starting pay [Re:Here's a thought:] (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a thought: they could try paying pilots decently, and giving them reasonable work schedules.
I know, that's crazy talk.
The starting wage for a pilot at a major carrier is $70-80 an hour with the ability to have a contractually guaranteed minimum of 70-80 hours a month.
So, why does the first hit on my google search for "starting pay for airline pilots" say "Starting Salaries. A regional airline pilots in the U.S. typically starts out making an hourly rate of $20 – $50 per hour, or about $20,000-$40,000 per year, depending on the airline, type of aircraft, and the pilot's experience level. [pea.com]"
with the ability to have a contractually guaranteed minimum of 70-80 hours a month.
...and, as the very same page on my google search helpfully tells me, "The average airline pilot logs 75 hours a month in the air and sometimes up to 150 hours per month performing ground duties like simulator training, maintaining records, performing pre-flight inspections, flight planning and traveling to and from hotels and airports."
...
Re: (Score:2)
...and, as the very same page on my google search helpfully tells me, "The average airline pilot logs 75 hours a month in the air and sometimes up to 150 hours per month performing ground duties like simulator training, maintaining records, performing pre-flight inspections, flight planning and traveling to and from hotels and airports."
...
Any simulator training that an airline pilot receives is paid on top of whatever flight time they have for that month (and must adhere to the same FARs as flight time such as 30 in 168). Pre-flight is about a 30-minute process, most flight planning is already done for them, and maybe an international pilot would spend about 3 hours combined going from cockpit to hotel room and hotel room back to airport. If a pilot is spending 150 hours in a simulator they are getting a type rating or qualifying on a new
Multiplication [Re:Starting pay [Re:Here's a...] (Score:2)
Explain your maths please, $20 - $50 is $40,000 - $100,000 for 40 hour weeks, so hows $40k at $50/hr work at 150 hours a month of whatever on top of flight time? Anyone can find random numbers on the Internet, but if they are not coherent...
I don't understand the question. The math is trivial.
$20 per flight hour, times the legal FAA maximum of 1000 flight hours per year, comes to $20,000/year. $50 per flight hour, times the legal maximum of 1000 flight hours per year, comes to $50,000/year.
What part of that did you need to be explained?
Re:Multiplication [Re:Starting pay [Re:Here's a... (Score:5, Informative)
AC versus NBC News. Fight! [nbcnews.com]
"A portrait of these hourly pay scales becomes even more pathetic when you consider that regional airline pilots, who are paid only from the time the airline leaves the gate to the time it arrives at the destination, only are on the clock on average about 21.5 hours per week."
"They have a minimum pay for time on duty at some airlines, like one hour of pay minimum for every two hours on duty, and one hour of pay for every 4-5 hours away from home,' Darby says. 'These rules are often not in effect at the smaller airlines, and are always guaranteed by the larger major airlines' union contracts."
Oooo... half-time pay, if you're lucky. Color me jealous.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Insightful)
Trust CNN to run a "conversation" article about supply and demand devoid of actual economics.
First, the author starts by blaming deregulation and the related advent of lower cost airlines. Then the author continues by blaming regulation for artificially limiting supply, i.e. the 1500 hour rule. Finally, they author proposes his preferred solution of Airlines creating their own flight academies (trying to increase supply of pilots again), for which the author conveniently is a teaching assistant for the academy he proposes as the solution to the problem. Is he trying to get a better job with the school, but they need more students?
If you've been following along, you might notice government regulations made air travel more expensive until it was finally loosened and airlines could compete on route and price instead of other "benefits" most customers didn't actually want to pay for. As a result, lots more people are able to fly to travel. (P.S. This is a good thing)
Not content with that, the government then comes back later and severely restricts the supply of airline first officers, taking the existing requirement of 250 hours (commercial pilot) and multiplying it by 6 to 1500 hours (ATP pilot). Overreaction to one incident, anyone? The first fatal crash in 3 years and they multiply the requirements to be an airline pilot by 6x?
The best part of the Wikipedia article on the crash [wikipedia.org] is the description of the regulatory solution, "Although it did nothing to address the specific causes of the crash ..." Basically the pilots weren't paying attention to the instruments, according to the flight recorders, then the reacted "not according to their training" to the resulting stall.
So the 1500 hours ATP requirement didn't even do anything to solve the problem of the crash which prompted it (both Colgan flight pilots had more than 1500 flight hours). That's pretty typical of this sort of regulation.
The demand side is fine (we want people to fly!), so how about we take the dramatic step of just fixing the regulations causing the supply problem? Something like, oh, only requiring 250 hours to be a first officer (commercial pilot's license) and keep the 1500 ATP hours for the Captain? That way someone can get experience as an airline pilot while getting paid? Simple supply fix, undo the overreaction in regulations which is causing the supply problem?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
As a result, lots more people are able to fly to travel. (P.S. This is a good thing)
Why is that good? I say it is bad. How do you know which is correct?
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Revealed preference. Without someone stopping them, people fly more.
2. Safety, comparing similar length trips using alternative modes of transportation.
What are your reasons why it would be bad?
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Is that all true as stated, or is the "$70-80 an hour" back-calculated by taking the annual salary and dividing what it would be for a 40 hour week? Because by your numbers, pilots with seniority make less than the starting wage.
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Interesting)
While your statements are factually correct they ignore several critical pieces of information that leaves readers with the wrong impression.
The $70-$80 is for flight hours, not hours worked.
You will spend as much time commuting and on preflight and postflight tasks as you will flying.
You will be on standby for a lot of the non-working time as well, where you can do little else.
Starting at a major carrier is a mid-career job, not a start of career job. You won't get this job until you have been in the industry for 10 to 15 years.
Another semi-random note: The pilot experience requirements would not have changed the Colgan crash. The captain had 3379 hours and the first officer had 2244 hours; both were well above the proposed new minimums. I use as a basic standard for good legislation that if a new law is created in response to an incident, the incident must have been prevented if the new law had already been in effect.
Re: Here's a thought: (Score:2)
Near most of the major cities $60k is just above poverty level.
Minimum wage up poverty lelvel up inflation up. Average wage is down massively
30 years ago my father earning 60k a year could get a house, two cars, a boat and his wife didn't have to work but made things easier.
To reach that same level now requires 120k and all college debt being paid.
My wife will being paying her college debt off right about the time our yet to be born kids go to college. Nursing school sucked and since she is already employe
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:4, Interesting)
The issue is requiring 1000-1500 hours of flight time before you can get an ATP certification which is a requirement to work for a commercial passenger airline. Before the changes after the Colgan Air crash you only needed 250 hours to be an FO with a regional carrier.
Today, many "fresh" pilots (those with a CPL and 250 hours) need to get a CFI and train other pilots in order to get the required experience. That's nothing else than a ponzi scheme. Once they have 1500 hours, they are eligible to fly at the airlines, but by that time they're "too old" and "too demanding".
Not to mention that a few years ago it was still very common to have young pilots pay to fly. The industry created the problem itself.
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> . I had to give up before completing my multi-engine rating even back in the 1980s because of the cost.
Me too, albeit in the 90's. I recently went over to the local regional airport and noticed that the hourly wet price on a C150 rental had well over doubled since I was doing my license. Inflation during that period was about 50%. Older planes, higher insurance and gas costs are killing the low end of the industry.
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1000 flight hours charitably will cost $200,000 at $200/hour plane rental cost. For a Piper Arrow. For a smaller Cessna, half that. That's still not an insignificant investment. Oh, and every pilot is one busted medical away from being unemployable. Potentially forever as pilot.
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Here's a thought: they could try paying pilots decently, and giving them reasonable work schedules.
I know, that's crazy talk.
That's almost the sort of talk you'd expect if there was a pilot shortage, but it is so far from reality that there obviously isn't a shortage, just a bunch of whiny companies.
If there was a shortage, they'd be offering free training and guaranteed work schedules.
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Here's a thought: they could try paying pilots decently, and giving them reasonable work schedules.
I know, that's crazy talk.
Paying more would help, but not enough. It's nearly impossible to get trained and enough flight time when you have to borrow to pay for it. Even getting enough PIC time to fly small cargo routes is nearly impossible, and that is just the first step.
I know of a service that flies banners near where I live. They require you have nearly 500 hours and a commercial rating just to do that part time. Even flying charters takes more time than that, and YOU will be paying for your type rating and minimum hours.
T
Re:Here's a thought: (Score:5, Interesting)
Also people who have flown their tours in the military likely have families at that point or want to become astronauts, politicians, or all of them.
Most military pilots have enough flight time to go right to a major airline, skipping the regionals. Worst case they are in their late 30s-early 40s, are making 6 figures within 3-4 years, and have a guaranteed 25-year career. Part of the issue is the pool of military pilots is shrinking as well with the adoption of more multi-purpose aircraft and UAVs.
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What we need to do is give the pilot's job to robots.
regional airlines pay very low (Score:3, Informative)
regional airlines pay very low
Re:regional airlines pay very low (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:regional airlines pay very low (Score:5, Interesting)
Whenever there's an article about a shortage of X, it's usually because the pay/conditions of X are terrible, nobody wants to do it FOR THAT WAGE, and thus there's a shortage. But the hope is that somehow this shortage will etiher drum up business for schools/certification, remove regulations that prevent unqualified people from doing the work, or otherwise prevent having to take the revenue that is lost to profit and use it for employees. Really hard to give a flying fuck.
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Especially right now because it's difficult to find someone to pilot that fuck.
Top Gun 2 will boost people into the milltary (Score:2)
Top Gun 2 will boost people into the milltary
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Your math might be suspect; a war would cause a lot of pilots to be recalled, even ones whose service would otherwise have already been finished for years.
Training increases related to a war would likely focus on unmanned aircraft.
Talk about a no-brainer issue (Score:5, Informative)
Airline pilot used to be a prestige job which for a system airline could be a lifetime career. Starting pilots now make $24 an hour, which is slightly higher than a Walmart greeter:
http://fortune.com/2014/03/03/... [fortune.com]
Think about that the next time you roar down the runway on your way somewhere.
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Airline pilot used to be a prestige job which for a system airline could be a lifetime career. Starting pilots now make $24 an hour, which is slightly higher than a Walmart greeter: http://fortune.com/2014/03/03/... [fortune.com]
Think about that the next time you roar down the runway on your way somewhere.
Your article is about 4 years and $26 per hour out of date [endeavorair.com].
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We should note though that the $50+ figure is based on limited hours. If we're comparing it with other jobs, we'd want to compare against a 2080 hour work year which sees their pilots earning about $29/hour.
$29/hour for highly skilled employment with unsociable hours and lots of travel is not high. Add to that the very high training cost.
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Software developer ... ... ... ... (probably not in the US, though)
Doctor
Lawyer
Teacher
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Show me other part-time jobs that pay $50 an hour.
Strippers, I mean exotic dancers. And dental hygienist apparently, my cousin’s wife gets paid that much as a dental hygienist but she has to string together work at three dental offices to make it a full time job.
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It may turn out that even though they're only getting paid for that many hours, the actual time commitment is much higher.
Other part time jobs only use up part of your time; this is a part time job that uses up all your time.
It isn't like you can work a typical second part time job from a random airport hotel. All that time is taken up by the job.
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It isn't like you can work a typical second part time job from a random airport hotel. All that time is taken up by the job.
Fun Fact: Many pilots have side-jobs (actually, for some pilots senior enough that they can sit reserve and not fly while still getting full pay, "pilot" is their $200k a year side job). They might be away from home 3-5 days at a time (sometimes as long as 9 days for some international trips) but then they could be home for the next 2 weeks straight. plenty of time to have another career. Many own another business of some type.
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that was when it was all ex navy and air force pilots who were at the top of their HS classes and went to one of the best colleges in the world and had 20 years experience flying planes
Re: Talk about a no-brainer issue (Score:2)
...when it was all ex navy and air force pilots
If you ever get a chance to meet a bunch of carrier aviators... and then get to meet their 'not-so-cool, calm & collected' fundie/Southern fratboy counterparts - i.e. Air Force fighter pilots - you wouldn't even risk mentioning them both in the same sentence.
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...when it was all ex navy and air force pilots
If you ever get a chance to meet a bunch of carrier aviators... and then get to meet their 'not-so-cool, calm & collected' fundie/Southern fratboy counterparts - i.e. Air Force fighter pilots - you wouldn't even risk mentioning them both in the same sentence.
Is it really true that while the other branches of the military have their recruits qualify at the rifle range Air Force pilots have to qualify at the driving range?
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Starting pilots now make $24 an hour, which is slightly higher than a Walmart greeter:
Pilots have nicer uniforms.
If they're that desperate (Score:3)
If they were that desperate they would be training pilots themselves.
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If they were that desperate they would be training pilots themselves.
They are. Jetblue has an ab initio program and other major airlines are following suit with similar programs.
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This is the answer.
Every time someone bemoans that there aren't enough X or the X they have aren't good enough, there are two questions to ask: 1) Are you paying people enough to want to do that job?/are the working conditions so shit that nobody wants to do that?, and 2) What are you doing to lower the barrier of entry for people who want in?
Almost always the problem is that the organization complaining is trying to be cheap.
Getting started is horrendous (Score:3, Insightful)
And then you're still just a bus driver in the sky. Passengers certainly treat it as such, in no small part due to the airlines treating the passengers like cattle. Honestly, I think the whole US air industry is just fucked.
Thank Sully (Score:2)
I imagine when small markets no longer have air service the political pressure will repeal the 1,500 hour rule with something logical.
Paying $200,000 for an ATP to work for the regionals is like paying $200,000 for a BS in Poly-Sci to work at Mc Donald’s.
But, senior pilots are paid very well with good benefits. They (like Sully) are the ones that caused the problem, for no improvement in safety.
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Which is not necessarily in the best interests of the country, and certainly not in the best interests of the communities that will lose air service. It comes out to about $4/passenger-flight-hour to improve pay for regional pilots to one that is sustainable with the 1,500 hour rule. The safety improvement can be better made at a lower cost... but regulation is trumping capitalism.
Get rid of the 1500 hour rule... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the major's fault... (Score:2)
...because they've pushed huge chunks of their route coverage onto regionals that pay very little, all in the name of Profit!
By pushing it all on the regionals, the majors have lowered expenses, and also push away some of the responsibility.
What's the result? Worse service.
Keep at it, Legacy Carriers. Keep diggin' that grave.
Not a secure future. (Score:5, Funny)
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You are spot on. Pilots will increasingly become IT workers - babysitting the data paths in the cockpit to ensure all the users are happy.
There will always be a market for special mission pilots - slurry bombers for fire fighting, off-airport operations for remote delivery/rescue, etc, but, those are very small markets.
Shortage of pilots willing to work for POOR WAGES (Score:5, Informative)
There is no shortage of pilots for those $300K/year jobs. Period.
There is a shortage at the 36K - $40K per year level - especially now that you need 1,500 hours which takes a fair bit of time to get (and $$). Add in quality of life issues at that pay rate - yes there is a shortage.
Put all the regional pilots on mainline contracts. Pilot shortage would go away pretty quickly.
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Exactly this. The options are many, all they need to do is pay enough in some form or another to make the expensive training worthwhile or pay for the training while the new employee is on a training salary.
This is nothing more than the overpaid "financial geniuses" not just cutting expenses to the bone, but cutting out part of the bone too now complaining that it's hard to walk on a broken bone.
Rather than planting, they ate the seed corn.
The russians did it (Score:2, Funny)
We dont have enough pilots because of the russians
an artificial shortage (Score:5, Interesting)
I just visited with a former US Navy pilot who's been flying for Frontier for the last 20 years. He hates it. Even in some major airlines, pilots are often treated poorly, have poor schedules, and are expected to have no life. This leads to a high rate of "AIDS" - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome. Pay has been increasing, but quality of life isn't.
If you work for an airline, regional or major, you have to establish 'seniority' before you can gain any sense of a normal schedule or choose a base of operations. Until you've establish seniority, a pilot is at the whim of the company. If you change companies, you give up seniority and start at the bottom all over again.
Federally Regulated Indentured Servitude. What a rewarding career choice. Not.
The real issues are the MBA mentality, and innovation and competition limiting FAA regulations. The airline industry and the FAA have been in bed together for decades to create regulations that go far beyond safety, and in reality limit competition and innovation. Profit and protecting the status quo comes first, everything else comes second. As a result, the US has seen a real decline in the pace of innovation in aviation. Other markets have seen dramatic increases in innovation, service, and safety. Aviation, not so much (except in safety). Yes, we have more efficient engines, better avionics, and more advanced materials (787 Dreamliner, etc.), but these innovations are in increasingly niche markets.
General aviation special interest groups like EAA and AOPA are starting to chip away at the FAA/Airline industry monster: Basic Med [aopa.org] is helping hobbyist pilots keep their medicals and continue flying smaller aircraft safely. And, the recent FAA Part 23 regulation re-write [aopa.org] is helping revive general aviation engineering and production in the United States. These are drops in the bucket, but hopefully this trend continues.
Stop Right There (Score:5, Insightful)
The national security of the United States relies on a healthy airline industry.
No, it doesn't. That's absurd. The military flies its own shit.
The economy does, sure. But that's a self-correcting problem (as long as you actually let it self-correct).
If there's a shortage of pilots, then raise fares to either lower demand or hire more pilots to fill demand.
Cost (Score:5, Insightful)
A pilot's license doesn't make someone an active commercial pilot. I work with a bunch of guys in their 60's who in their youth were hobbyist pilots that would just go and fly for fun out of local airfields. ALL of these airfields are now gone, and the cost to take up a small plane just isn't feasible for a hobbyist anymore.
No Shortages, Or Surpluses (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no such thing as a shortage, or a surplus. Those two things only exist within a price point, at a specific point in time. With enough money, you could buy ALL the pilots. I am pretty sure the very last pilot would be very expensive. Then, after a few more years, there would be even more pilots, and then they'd be even more expensive. Eventually this would stabilize, as even if there were one extremely rich person with all the money, not everyone could be a pilot. Some people would have to grow food, and work on airplanes.
This article seems to miss an important point - regional airlines choose not to pay as much for pilots, so they will feel a 'shortage' at or below their preferred price point, for a specific time period.
This is perplexing because pay is so low (Score:2)
This is perplexing because the pay is so low and pilots have to pool their housing.
Views on jobs.... (Score:2)
I hear other jobs have the same issue, loss of job image, after certain poeple enter the employ.
A recent one turned on his advisors, and on his people, taking a murderer's word over theirs' on international television. That is one job that will never look as special as it did the day before that mindless fool was voted in. Not involving transportation, but it did have a lot lives on the line.
I have to admit, however, that job did start coming up short on good people that wanted to fill the role properly, a
Obvious solution (Score:3)
We're going to need a bigger boat^h^h^h^hplane.
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> $22,500 per year,
I helped two of my neighbors with their taxes a couple of years ago that are pilots for a regional Delta affiliate, and I can confirm the pay is low. Both made around $24k a year. They didn't have to work that much since Delta is severely limited by SEATAC's terrible design that limits capacity (which is supposed to be helped by an upgrade in 2020), but that's still not much money to live off of in the Seattle area.
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Flying a plane takes little skill [IMHO -- I am a pilot :=].
Flying a plane into a building DOES take a bit of skill (and stupid as fuck).
LANDING a plane safely is a completely different beast. It's not easy...
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"Fly? Yes. Land? No." -Indiana Jones