Some Students Say Having To Speak in Front of the Class is an Unreasonable Burden For Those With Anxiety and Are Requesting Alternative Options (theatlantic.com) 513
An anonymous reader shares a report: For many middle and high school students, giving an in-class presentation was a rite of passage. Teachers would call up students, one by one, to present their work in front of the class and, though it was often nerve wracking, many people claim it helped turn them into more confident public speakers. "Coming from somebody with severe anxiety, having somebody force me to do a public presentation was the best idea to happen in my life," one woman recently tweeted. According to a recent survey by the Association of American Colleges and Universities, oral communication is one of the most sought-after skills in the workplace, with over 90 percent of hiring managers saying it's important. Some educators also credit in-class presentations with building essential leadership skills, and increasing students' confidence and understanding of material.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
It scared the crap out of me, but I came out of my shell with encouragement from some kindly teachers.
It's a rite of passage because in life, we have to be brave about many things. Not just big stuff like warfare and hurricanes, but life choices and eventually confronting mortality (put it off as long as you can).
We need to raise people to overcome their disadvantages, not revel in them. We can be compassionate and help them do so, but they need this ability to be brave and we need them to have it.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed. Standing in front of the class is a problem for people, as they want people to like them; they need to learn the comedien's trick (Thank You, Dethklok): hate the audience.
Death metal helps (Score:5, Interesting)
Not just with standing in front of the class, but with dealing with humanity in general. Or technology, really.
Re:Death metal helps (Score:5, Interesting)
Public speaking is an important skill, but it has nothing to do with, say, math. So should a kid get a bad grade in algebra because he gets nervous in front of a classroom?
Martin Gardner [wikipedia.org] turned down all invitations to speak, and said that he never felt comfortable speaking to a group of people.
Seung-Hui Cho [wikipedia.org] suffered from selective mutism [wikipedia.org], which caused him to be bullied by other students, and humiliated by a teacher who threatened to give him a failing grade if he wouldn't talk. On April 16th, 2007, he murdered 32 of his classmates.
Re:Death metal helps (Score:5, Insightful)
Communication of Math is part of doing Math. There can be exceptions for world-exceptional practitioners (think Perelman), but that is it. The rest must develop reasonable communication skills or they are not Mathematicians. Any scientist or engineer can be expected to be able to communicated meaningfully with an audience. Also, getting a degree serves to extend your skills and abilities and, in particular, should allow you to find ways to work around limitations you have (and we all have some). If you are successful at getting there, no matter how (that is up to you but you can ask for help) then you deserve that degree. If not, you do not.
The only other alternative is to start handing out meaningless degrees. This is a slippery slope. Eventually we will have people that cannot read or write getting literature degrees or people that have no understanding of Physics getting engineering degrees. That must not happen. It also would be a huge disservice to these people, because lowering the bar for them does not encourage them to find a way to solve their specific problem. And on the ethics side, if we start allowing people with specific problems to get degrees easier, would we not be obliged to give advanced degrees to stupid people? They cannot help that either and it can be seen as a legitimate disability.
Re: Death metal helps (Score:3)
He did however give plenty of recorded interviews, and he apparently did public magic performances in his youth. So yes, he did speak in public, despite his dislike of it.
Re:Death metal helps (Score:5, Insightful)
"Knowing" is a super important thing for any person. "Demonstrating" that knowledge is often the key to success and if you can't speak publicly, you can't demonstrate.This is why we also teach handwriting and grammar in schools.
Re: (Score:3)
Death metal helps
Death metal...is that mercury or lead?
Re:Death metal helps (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, it's real life. If you can't stand in front of your own class and talk, then how do you expect to get through the rest of life? There aren't that many jobs where you can just hide in a corner and not interact with others.
I am not very social around strangers. I can be but it takes some effort. When I was job hunting once I was having trouble. One manager eventually said "we liked you, but you didn't seem interested in the job". First feedback I ever got from an interview. At that point I changed tactics. At the next interview I acted like a different person. When they asked "do you have any questions for us" then instead of saying "no I think I'm good" instead I gave them some questions I came up with beforehand. Things got better at that point and I got a job not long after (not great but it was getting me in the door). After awhile, that way of acting became natural so that it's not really an act anymore. Being engaged with the person you're talking to really makes a huge difference.
Re:Death metal helps (Score:5, Insightful)
Having a mental illness is real life too. Yes, disability means you are unable to do certain things.
I have a disability. It sucks, I wish I didn't, I wish I could do an the stuff I can't do because of it. And the most frustrating thing is when people say stuff like "maybe if you just tried" or "you need to get over it".
I know you mean well but it's not something a person can just push though. Maybe instead of just throwing kids in at the deep end they could have classes helping them understand and maybe overcome their issues, if that's possible for them.
Re: (Score:3)
There are laws against the thing you suggest.
Opting out of something in a class requires documentation from medical professionals and 529 or IEP plans. If you opt out with those, there are privacy laws. If you opt out without those, the documentation is a 0 on the assignment and your grade suffers.
And the statement 2 above about this being a mental illness issue is a straw man poll. This isn't about mental illness or developmental delays, those people in school if diagnoses have 529 plans or IEPs. This
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Interesting)
I have an anxiety disorder. Well, technically I have a sensory processing disorder which overloads my brain which then causes my mental state to break down to severe anxiety. I have had the problem since birth. This makes me incapable of handling just day to day life let alone stress. Things that are slightly stressful for normal people are nearly completely impossible for me (eg. going to the doctor).
Anyway, I did all the public presentations. I even took speech specific classes in college where I was giving speeches 3 times a week. I didn't like it. It didn't get easier and it didn't better my life in any way. I wouldn't do it again.
Back then I didn't know something was wrong with me so I forced myself to do a lot of stuff like take speech classes. I never got the help I needed as a kid or even adult which was really hard on me but I kept pushing myself. Turns out I was just making myself worse because this wasn't something I was doing wrong but instead something is physically wrong with me. I finally started getting treatment at 40 years old but honestly it's a bit late and there isn't anything that helps much.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, I don't think you're an exception since you have a disorder. You found out something about yourself. By going out and forcing yourself to take the classes and give speeches, you discovered that it not only didn't help, but you wouldn't do it again.
You would never know if you could work yourself out of it till you tried. BUT you tried, and you're a better person for it. It helped you on the road to get some treatment as you say at 40.
But, if you hadn't gone through that trial, would you have had the insight to get help? Who knows. I think what is important is people need to push through some discomfort to find out who they really are.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It scared the crap out of me, but I came out of my shell with encouragement from some kindly teachers.
There is a pretty big difference between not wanting to do something and someone with an anxiety disorder experiencing panic attacks. Claiming your own experiences are somehow relevant for people who have real neurological disorders is exactly what people are referring to when people talk about the stigma of mental illness. Would you tell someone who is paralyzed to try walking? No and you shouldn't tell someone experiencing depression to think happy thoughts because it worked for you, nor should you tells
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Really? I've had a decent career without having to give presentations to hostile audiences. Some smaller, less formal stuff, sure, but but what is being described here.
Not everyone needs every skill they are taught in school throughout their career. It doesn't make those skills unimportant to learn, because if it did there would be nearly nothing worth teaching. Also I don't know how old you are or how far into your career you are, but if you are only in your 30's or 40's you might not have even reached the point in your career where presentations become more common.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
If you cannot get the panic under control or work around it, then you should not get that degree, as you are disabled to the point of being unqualified. That is not a value judgment, but holding that degree is an assurance by the institution you got it from that you have certain skills. And public speaking is part of that.
The only other alternative is starting to hand out meaningless toy degrees to people with various problems. That would be really bad. So I am all for providing help to people affected, but if they cannot hack it despite the help, they must not get that degree.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Informative)
I had panic attacks in Junior High, and near break-downs at times. Still, I forced myself to suffer through the presentations, and the participation.
I got better at holding in the stress until after school, and breaking down when no-one was around.
By the time college came around, it clicked that if I can hold back the break down, for hours, and then have it later -- when all the stimulus was gone, it was just me wanting it to happen. Not entirely sure how it came about, but I didn't feel the need to have my head fry over it anymore.
I still hate it with a passion, and get stupidly nervous, and self-conscious, and pretty much every other aspect of it. But, the actual overwhelming breakdown doesn't happen anymore. I just grin and bear it. And can give 2hr presentations at work. And can speak in meetings. And otherwise fake being extroverted.
If I weren't forced to suffer for 4-5 years to learn how to control it, I doubt I'd have such a good career, doing work I enjoy, and be able to travel from client-site to client site around the world.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, on high-school level there is also a pedagogic problem with students being able to bypass requirements in this way: It teaches them that they just need the right kind of problem or "victim" status an they can get away with not trying hard. This way we get incomplete and problematic adults.
Re:Bravery (Score:4, Insightful)
We need to raise people to overcome their disadvantages, not revel in them. We can be compassionate and help them do so, but they need this ability to be brave and we need them to have it.
I couldn't agree more. That's why I despise those who take the opposite tack and play up their disadvantages looking for extra rights and privileges.
Re:Bravery (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed.
There are no free passes in life, and no participation trophies.
If you get a free pass on giving class presentations through your whole school career, how do you think you will fare the first time you have to give a powerpoint presentation at the office?
You can't live your life in a bubble.
You're God Damn Right (Score:4, Insightful)
While I was going to College one of the best things I ever did for myself was get myself promoted to a supervisor on the front end of the grocery store I worked in. Yeah, it was constant panic attack for me for a while but within an admittedly lengthy period (most people wouldn't have taken as long and I was put on discipline a few times for making mistakes due to my nerves and was literally almost fired) I had that shit nailed and coming out of that I am far more well adjusted. After that experience I intentionally put myself through my rate of panic attacks drop to record lows and nowadays I literally just don't get them. In fact, for some absurd reason people generally regard me as an extrovert nowadays.
Now trust me, it fucking sucked ass initially but honestly I regard that move as equally valuable as the degree I got going to college. Also, don't get me wrong here, there are people that have very legitimate psychological issues well above and beyond what I used to have and my trial by fire experience might even be harmful for those types. Ultimately though, those people really are the minority and most shy people just need to force themselves out of their shells.
Shy people: The simple fact is you'll be far happier forcing yourself out of your shell. It will be awkward hell at first but humans are inherently social creatures. Ultimately, we need social contact to thrive.
Also, your sex life will probably be better in the end.
Re:Bravery (Score:4, Insightful)
It scared the crap out of me, but I came out of my shell with encouragement from some kindly teachers.
It's rare that I agree with you, but I do on this one.
I to was scared half to death by standing up in front of the class. Thinking back that was one of the aspects where my teachers didn't suck. But basically I had to do them, no choice. Then I had to do a few more. I left school with a mere strong dislike of public speaking, but no longer terrified of it.
I had to do more at university. Then, eventually it became a non-negotiable part of my career path. Fortunatly by that stage I was merely nervous rather than terrified. Then my career progressed and I had to speak in front of a variety of audiences, small and large repeatedly.
The prospect of speaking no longer terrifies me. Not only that but I'm actually pretty decent at it this days. Perhaps the adage that if you try something enough you'll stop sucking is true. I sometimes enjoy it now, depending on th eexpected audience. I still get a surge of adrenaline, but those times when you can capture the hwole audience leaves me on a real high.
We need to raise people to overcome their disadvantages, not revel in them.
There's a curious thing in the zeitgeist at the moment. Generally there's been a great improvement in awareness of various things like mental conditions etc. I think this is a god thing, on the whole. However, an awful lot of people have kind of glommed on to it and in some cases it almost seems to be seen as a virtue to be able to claim some obscure condition as your own.
We can be compassionate and help them do so, but they need this ability to be brave and we need them to have it.
Yep. I 100% agree. The compassion part is important. If people had been arseholes to me out of the gate it would have never got me here. Also, some people inevitably will have medical conditions which prevent this, and we should be mindful of that.
Almost everyone hates public speaking off the bat. But most people can learn to not hate it and be decent at it. And most peple need to be pushed out of their confort zone in order to improve. Being able to talk to an audience is a very useful skill in and out of the workplace.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
OMG!!! This is not about standing in front of your classmates and speaking.
It's about building the confidence to succeed in life and society. How is this
any different than asking for a date with someone? Or, when they're older,
interviewing for a job in from of a team of people who are going to evaluate
you mostly based on your presentation? Schools should be doing the opposite
and continue to challenge these babies (male and female alike) until they grow
some...
CAP === 'ringing'
Re:Buddy of mine had the opposite (Score:5, Insightful)
Who said anything about liking public speaking? You don't have to like it, you just have to *do* it. One of those life skills that, unless you never have to interview in your life, is going to come in handy no matter how much you hate it.
Re:Buddy of mine had the opposite (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. If we all limited "work" to only things we like, not a lot of it would get done. An academic degree is a sign that you can read and write documents and that you can present things in front of people. For some degrees, that is the most important final job qualification. You must be able to competently do it. You are not required at all to "like" it. And yes, I know what anxiety looks like. You may be tripping sweat and shaking while doing this. You still need to be able to do it and that can only be achieved with practice. If you later go for a career where you have to do this only rarely, not a problem at all.
Re: Buddy of mine had the opposite (Score:5, Insightful)
>A meaningless kind of role-playing. ... and you just described 90% of high school. The entire environment is horribly artificial, and generally manages to completely miss the point of even the education. Knowledge rots without usage, and it's a rare class that teaches you the skills to effectively use that knowledge outside of class.
I am sorry nobody challenged you to make your presentations worth the time to listen to, much less prepare. I seriously doubt you had any presentations that were literally regurgitating classroom content, where a little independent research couldn't have added a great deal of additional information and classroom merit (and maybe even improved your grade). I had some teachers early on that made it clear that was the *point* of giving a presentation, and never encountered one in all my years that objected. I was shy and pretty much always hated having to give presentations, but at least I learned early on that the point was to practice conveying information, wish I had caught on earlier that it was also about engaging the audience. If you can engage an initially utterly indifferent classroom audience about an arbitrary topic... that's a skill set that will serve you well whenever you need to convey information or influence decisions. Sort of throwing you into the lion's den on that front, but it's a large enough audience that you can probably interest at least one or two enough to pay attention. Probably help if there were an explicit speech-giving course squeezed in there at some point.
Re:Buddy of mine had the opposite (Score:5, Interesting)
I had to present my grad school research to a smallish group of people once. So I got up there and did all the typical smooth talker thing, the opposite of how I really am, hand waving, always sounding confident, etc. Afterwards they shook my hand and said it was a good talk. When they left I then told my prof that I was nervous since I hadn't prepared as much as I should have and was winging most of it. She blew up and told me I wasn't being professional, yada yada yada. But it worked. I can still pull out that character and put on a good handwaving show when I need to, or even when listening remember to ask relevant questions to make up for the fact that I wasn't paying as much attention as I should. It's a useful skill.
(Later the prof was upset I hadn't signed up for a local conference, and she said "it doesn't matter if you're interested in the topic or not, you need to get out there and schmooze!" Good advice that's better to learn earlier than later.)
Re: (Score:3)
Honestly, if you've got to your Junior year in high school and still hate public speaking then you're going to hate it for life.
Just one data point to the contrary, I hated speech class in high school though I don't remember if I took it junior or senior year. I definitely didn't want to be up in front of the class talking about anything. Now I enjoy speaking at conferences, provided that the topic is in my area of interest and expertise.
I would say that I started enjoying public speaking sometime after college.
Re: (Score:3)
Honestly, if you've got to your Junior year in high school and still hate public speaking then you're going to hate it for life.
I hold myself up as a counter example.
I hated public speaking in secondary school (Junior year is same as lower 6th in teh UK I think), and I certainly wasn't fond of it by that age. These days, I both like it and am decent at it. The education I got in school did take it from bloody awful to merely bad. The intervening few decades sanded off a good bit of the remaining badness.
If
I have math anxiety (Score:5, Funny)
I have history anxiety.
I have grammar anxiety.
I have science anxiety.
I have PE anxiety - in spades.
Can I just go home now?
Re:I have math anxiety (Score:5, Funny)
I have grade anxiety.
Give me an "A" or I'll cry.
Re:I have math anxiety (Score:5, Interesting)
I have grade anxiety.
Give me an "A" or I'll cry.
More seriously, tests, reports, and lab projects are huge stress-inducers, often prompting even more anxiety than oral presentations. Should passes be given for tests, reports, and projects? School is about learning things that are not already mastered and are usually challenging, which causes stress, anxiety, and frustration in most people.
If there is a true need to excuse students from major requirements, then the grade report should reflect the excuse. If the excused activity doesn't affect grades, then the activity can be considered optional. However, if grades are affected, then giving full credit for an excused activity directly penalizes other students. In that case, the choice is no longer solely whether to excuse a student but rather whether to penalize the excused student or to penalize the other students.
Re: (Score:3)
Reasonable accommodations are made for tests. Extra time, etc. The purpose of a test i to assess knowledge. If someone doesn't speak English, giving them in a test in English is pretty useless.
True, reasonable accommodations can often be extended without impeding the development or teaching of the core ideas. However, if the class is an English class, then testing in any language other than English defeats the purpose of the test. If the class is a communications class that teaches oral communication, then testing in any other media defeats the purpose of the test. If the class is a basketball skills class, then testing without a basketball defeats the purpose of the class.
Re: (Score:3)
That is essentially where things go to if we allow this. And we will get a lot of "victims" that are basically free-riders in addition. In the end, grades and degrees become meaningless, to the detriment of society as a whole.
bubble wrap (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:bubble wrap (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I have social anxiety, but I actually found that public speaking is far easier (only after doing it) because you already know what you're going to say, and you have more control over the interaction. Additionally, it's an opportunity for people to get to see a side of you that you that they wouldn't necessarily see in daily interactions.
Re:bubble wrap (Score:5, Insightful)
No, the students are correct to question and challenge the requirement. "We" should be able to explain to them why it is important, how those who are poor at this can learn to improve, and how/what kind of assistance is available to those who experience extreme discomfort.
Throwing a label at these students only buttresses their suspicion: those adults who claim authority do not know crap.
Re: (Score:3)
"We" should be able to explain to them why it is important
Life will put you infront of people. Learn what that is like now rather than at your first job interview.
Done. Can I label the fragile flowers who challenge everything because it doesn't suit them yet?
Re:bubble wrap (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
You win the internet for the day!
Next Up (Score:4, Informative)
"Stop forcing people to interview in front of employers and give them a choice not to".
Learning should include uncomfortable situations.
Kids are addicted to phones (Score:4, Interesting)
Having to get out of your mom's basement (Score:2)
Can nanny state bring all life and make it happen there?
It's for real (Score:5, Interesting)
I have an opposite fear: Sometimes I have to sit in an audience while someone who knows diddly squat about Open Source gives a speech about it (or even a keynote), and I would really like to engage them right in front of the audience and point out all of their mistakes, but in general that doesn't work for the audience. I just hate to sit through those things. About my most productive response was to write this [firstmonday.org] in response to a completely clueless speaker.
But how did I become a speaker? I had a neurological deficit resulting in a speech impediment and coordination problems. Throughout 1-12th grade, I took at least 10 years of either instruction from a speech pathologist or year-after-year enrollment in the school's rhetoric class (which wasn't really addressing a problem in speech pathology). So, any fear of audiences was beaten out of me.
Most people hate and fear being in front of an audience. For some, the solution really is for them to one-on-one with a teacher. But for most, the solution would be early instruction that makes them more comfortable with the situation. The sink-or-swim method of just putting them in the front of the room is probably not the right way.
Re: (Score:2)
So, any fear of audiences was beaten out of me.
See? Definitely the right approach [youtube.com].
it's part of the purpose of education (Score:2)
Part of the purpose of a formal education is to push you out of your comfort zone -- to have you try things that you wouldn't normally be inclined to do. My concern is that if schools pander to kids not wanting to give presentations, that entire skill set will wither away. We're already raising a generation -- a couple generations now, I guess -- of kids who are disinclined to interact with other humans. I don't think encouraging that is a good idea.
Re: (Score:3)
Are you forcing the athletes to do calculus in front of the class?
Are you forcing a couple of geeks to get up the front and juggle?
Then what the fuck is this bullshit where you penalize the introverts that tend to be the ones that actually DO everything while the extroverts talk to each other about it?
discriminatory presentations (Score:5, Insightful)
Just when you thought... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Just when you thought the snowflake generation couldn't possibly get any softer... they pull some shit like this.
Says every generation as they get older and wiser, looking at their offspring wondering "Why won't they listen?"
Why is it that I keep hearing my parents talk when it's my mouth that's moving? Why is it that the looks on my kids faces seem to mirror the thoughts I had when my parents tried to impart their life knowledge by saying similar things?
Somehow I figure the young will grow up eventually and will be saying the same things to their kids, in about 20 years..
And in related news... (Score:3)
Some other students say that having to clean their room and do homework before playing video games is an unreasonable burden for those with phat loot to grind.
Seriously, I hated speaking in front of the class, being forced to do it made me a better person.
Communication skills are critical in today's world, public speaking is a part of this and it's a vitally important skill. You need to learn that others rarely judge yourself as harshly as you do - everyone else is wrapped up in their own lives. Those that judge you don't matter and those that matter don't judge you. The sooner you realise this, the better your life will be.
How about putting them on stage? (Score:2)
Seriously, with those lights, you can't see anything when you're up there. Any anxiety should be drowned out by the effort you expend keeping your pupils from shrinking down to nothing.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow the snowflakes... (Score:4, Insightful)
how I dealt with it (Score:2)
Carlos Mencia called it (Score:2)
This test is too hard! (So we lower the standards)
There are 2 elements to consider (Score:3, Interesting)
There are 2 elements to consider here:
1) A students score in an academic subject should not depend on their public speaking comfort and performance. Think about that. It makes good sense. Why does your science research project mark depend on 'eye contact' and not saying 'um' ? That's as ridiculous an grading a mathematics assignment on your singing voice and fashion sense.
2) Public speaking, and speaking in front of others is an important life skill and students need to learn how to do it; and should not be excused from doing it, even if it makes them uncomfortable.
Reconciling this really shouldn't be that hard. Separate the academic marks from the public speaking/presentation marks. Your science mark is what you know in science. Offer separate classes in public speaking and debate etc. Still HAVE the science presentations though, but apply your science presentation "presentation performance" mark to the other course. So no matter how badly you blow the presentation performance it doesn't affect your science mark; that's graded on the content you hand in.
People with anxiety will struggle in this 2ndary course; but at least it doesn't affect their academic marks. I'd say this 2ndary course should be mandatory -- public speaking is an important life skill that people need to do, but i extreme cases could be excused.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
A large part of science and engineering research is being able to convey your findings to other - through written papers and presentations. Why do you think there are so many conferences? Why do you think events like TED talks are so popular?
If you cannot communicate your idea, it doesn't matter if it is the most brilliant thing ever. Being a presenter and writer is an essential part of the job.
Perhaps they're starting too late (Score:2)
When debating was offered at school to our grade 5 and 6 kids, we jumped at the chance to shove them in at the deep end. They were nervous and unsure of themselves, but we persisted. We helped them with the debates, we practiced with them. Now in high school, they are both confident public speakers and are able to structure their own debating material. It's easy to spot the newbies from other schools.
Everyone needs to develop a few callouses before hitting the big world. Perhaps the parents of anxious child
This is why (Score:2)
As a teacher, I hate presentations too (Score:3)
First, I was very uncomfortable with presentations when I was in school. I even dread the "Introduce, and say something about yourself." If I am a subject expert then I am fine with presentations; if I am not presenting as a subject expert then it is still painful, we are talking cold sweat and strong stress indicators level of painful. I will frequently choose to not go to events and meetings where I will be forced to speak. So, yes, I do understand.
Secondly, having students speak is boring. I really don't want to listen to the same thing over and over again.
However, it is in my state curriculum and I am required, by the district, to have a public speaking component in all of my classes.
One time I made a mistake, A student said, in class, "What happens if I don't get up and speak?"
I told him that he would get a zero on that portion of the overall score. He replied with "Oh, Ok, I'll take a zero." It was infectious, all through the room as I called on students the response when it was their turn was to say "I'll take a zero too." This was done in a cheerful tone. They felt, and stated to others that they had outsmarted me, all they had to do was take a zero. I heard about this from another teacher because several students were laughing about it in her class.
At this point they receive a zero and they wait in the office. Do I like doing it? No; but I am required to have a public speaking component in all of my classes. That is non-negotiable.
Why send kids to school at all? (Score:2)
Betteridge... (Score:2)
...doesn't even know where to start with that ridiculous run-on headline.
Why cripple people (Score:2)
Sorry, but in real life you are eventually going to have to speak to others, even if it's just your job as a McDonalds register.
You are doing no favors by shielding people from talking to others. It may be rough but you have to at least try, otherwise go find a cabin in the woods and live out your days - in that case skip the classes as you'll not need them.
Up.. Get up there and talk (Score:2)
Seriously, just do it.
I was *extremely* awkward and shy in High School/College and *HATED* public speaking. It's still high on my list of things I look for to NOT have as part of my job description. I am seriously bad at this kind of thing, but the fear of it it doesn't control me.
I was forced to do this in High School and College so I KNOW that I can do a presentation to a group, even a group of strangers. Where I still actively avoid such duties, but I'm not paralyzed with fear when doing such things i
Learn to deal, better now than later. (Score:2)
... students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options ... a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" ...
Can't wait until he/she tries this at a job ...
But, more to the point... While I appreciate the difficulty presentations and public speaking may pose for those with anxiety disorders, people and life aren't always going to accommodate you. Learning to handle situations like this in a relatively consequence-free environment, like school, is to your benefit.
I blame so-called 'social media' for this (Score:2)
Social Media connects people and brings people together!
BULL-FUCKING-SHIT.
All so-called 'social media' does is let you pretend to be 'social', while in reality it's giving you every excuse to not be social at all. Text on a screen, or even pictures on a screen, over the Internet is not a substitute for actually interacting, live and in person, with other people.
I also blame smartphones being used by children and teenagers for this. 'Texting' someone is also not being 'social' in any real sense, it's just another excuse to not interact with people in live set [slashdot.org]
You got to be F'ing kidding. (Score:2)
I have gym class anxiety, please change my C into an A.
I have testing anxiety, so, I should automatically pass the bar exam. I know of an attorney whom received 2x time on the California bar because he had testing anxiety, so that is almost an automatic pass.
We are raising a bunch of snow flakes that they are entitled to everything. There is free tuition, just not for dumbasses or double dumbasses.
I am triggered because you were not offended at what triggered me.
I peed ... (Score:2)
... down both legs when I had to give a speech in front of a class and the goddam subject was chosen for me.
I lectured in college about computer stuff and, because that was my wheelhouse, and I could answer questions on the fly or simply admit that I didn't know, I did well.
Later on I taught computer science on campus to adults after hours.
I even testified in court, drawing a scene and relating the facts and felt right at home.
I figured out what the problem was: When I was forced to make shit up, I did no
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ADA/reasonable accomodation (Score:3)
In the U.S. we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, which I'm sure applies here. Schools have to make reasonable accommodations for disabilities.
A student/parent should be able to ask for a reasonable accommodation if public speaking is likely to trigger some serious negative outcome, legitimately CAN'T reasonably perform the task (e.g. severe speech impediment, etc.) etc.
But this seems to be asking for more. That it makes a student "uncomfortable" doesn't rise to the need for reasonable accommodation.
I wonder how many of these students have no problem at all making YouTube Videos, live-streaming on their favorite social platform, or entertaining their friends in person with their latest misadventures?
Maybe a remedial program to "bridge" these "skills" to the valuable skill of public speaking...
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Bingo. The tweets referred to in the article mention that this should only be for "diagnosed anxiety". Unfortunately, we live in the real world, and in the real world, a parent that is persistent enough can ALWAYS find a doctor who will diagnose their kid with anything.
An all too common example: when i was young, I was extremely out of shape, so physical education was problemati
Things you have to explain (Score:3)
If you can't stand up in front of me and explain why I should hire you, maybe you should apply at McDonalds.
If I interview you part will be explaining something to me with a pen and a whiteboard. Communication skills are non-negotiable.
...laura
Treat the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
I've become accomplished at public speaking, but I understand where these students are coming from. Part of it is that some students are just facing too much stress, and having to speak out in class is just too much especially since some of these students don't really have the skills to deal with the stress.
Yeah, it's a fact of life _later_ in life. But there's no reason to be harsh on everyone who has a fear of it and make them go up right away. How about instead have counsellors for students to help them deal with these issues, and let students speak in class when they are ready. Sometimes, throwing someone in the deep end is actually too much.
Gradual assistence (Score:5, Insightful)
If somebody has trouble in that area, perhaps special classes or work-shops can be provided whereby the student works their way up: speak to progressively bigger groups/crowds for progressively longer times rather than dive into the deep end on Day One.
We all have weak areas that we probably need special classes and/or assistance with.
I've seen no definitive evidence that traumatizing children makes them better adults, and perhaps has a net negative impact. Barring clear evidence for either side of the cowboy-vs-coddle debate, I believe my suggestion is reasonable and common-sense. However, it does require resources that poorer students and/or districts cannot afford.
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Keep in mind that this has been normal practice for generations and generations, and nobody's traumatized by it. It's just a learning experience.
This is a necessary requirement (Score:5, Insightful)
Any scientist or engineer must be able to clearly and correctly explain things in front of an audience, even if that audience is larger. If somebody has anxiety (a serious mental condition, no argument) then they must find a way to still be able to do presentations to a group and interact with that group during and after the presentation or they will not be able to fulfill the requirements for the qualification they are aiming for. Sorry, no exceptions. You can't do it, you are not qualified.
I am all for helping them finding a solution or a workaround to the anxiety, but the presentation skills are a hard requirement.
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Have you never heard about Plato's tale of the cave? Part of the work of a teacher is turning some (not all, some) of the lazy people into hardworking ones, with a combination of curiousity-inducing and forcing. It's not easy to do, and admittedly, that was why I was a bad teacher at the time (at some point, I realized I just prefer to let the lazy ones fuck themselves up and only have fun with the ones who want to learn).
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That work should have already been done in K-12. If you come to university and you're lazy, it's best if you go try to become a YouTube star and let the rest of us get on with it.
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Not even university. At the community college I work for I often ask myself in meetings "are we working with adults in college or are we going to treat them like it is grade 13 and 14?"
What is sad is that we have dual enrollment students - juniors and seniors in high school who are completing half or all of an AA degree by the time they finish high school, real college credits not AP courses. Often times, they are more on the ball and in with it than the "traditional" students. Most older folks who are w
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Those students will always be more on the ball. The traditional students are a mix of people without the money for a university (so are probably working) and without the grades/motivation (so will always be behind). The high schoolers there are a mix of highly motivated individuals who work hard as hell and are excelling academically, and the just plain smart kids who may not work as hard but breeze through the work. The first two groups will have very few people who compare well with the second (and mos
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> I know it really upsets you anti-SJW people, but the truth is
I AM the kind of person you are trying to white knight here.
You just need to shut the fuck up.
Re:It's fine (Score:5, Insightful)
What if those great thinkers became the great thinkers they were because they were pushed into uncomfortable situations constantly from a young age?
Had they been allowed to retreat into their shells and play gameboy (or insert era appropriate menial diversion here) would they have amounted to anything?
Struggle is what leads to character, maybe a bit of social anxiety is actually a gift.
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The operative part of this is "from a young age". It's not really that hard to figure out who's for real and who's bullshitting. I mean, the first time a student's grandma dies, it's one thing. By the third or fourth time, there's something else going on.
You'd be surprised how much can be learned just by observing and simply speaking to a student. After all,
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"You can see a lot just by looking" - Yogi Berra
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You can never go wrong with a little Yogi wisdom.
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Social anxiety is not a terminal diagnosis. If people have severe social anxiety we should help them with treatment so they aren't crushed by it. The only "penalty" would be withholding the skill and experience necessary to help them overcome or at least better cope with their social anxiety.
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Yes, there will be lazy-ass bonespur children who just use this as an excuse to get out of a difficult assignment
But laziness is not why people feel reluctant to present, it's anxiety. A lot of people (myself very much included) just need that push to actually do the presentation, and then figure out that it's not quite as horrible an experience as anticipated; but if given the option we'd just as soon not do it in the first place. Of course everyone is different, but it seems to me this is not about recognising difference as much as it is about helping people to overcome their fears and gain skills that will be reall
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Re:It's fine (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, isn't âoeExposure therapyâ commonly used as a behavior therapy to help treat anxiety disorder?
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I know it really upsets you anti-SJW people, but the truth is it's not that hard to make accommodations for students who are made up a little differently from the rest of us. Some of our most brilliant authors, scientists, mathematicians, etc were people who had crushing social anxiety and it would be a damn shame to penalize them so early in the game because of it.
There is a difference between penalizing them and helping them deal with their anxieties; because once they get in the real world it will penalize them for not having that skill unless they have a specialized talent to rely on. If they don't, the may find they've plateau in terms of upward mobility in a job. With proper help that anxiety can be overcome in many cases; but part of it is practicing and doing it. I say this as someone who has overcome those types of challenges and makes a living talking in fr
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That's all I'm saying here, and I'm being excoriated for it.
Not at the higher-ed level. You see it in K-12, but not so much above that.
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I puked multiple times in grade school and even my first year of college when I had to do public speaking. I did finally get over it and through repetition I don't even get nervous anymore. Having anxiety about public speaking isn't unusual and attempting to face and overcome it isn't unreasonable.
It's not fine (Score:3)
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Speaking to other humans and public speaking can be two very different things.
I love all these supposedly-educated people coming here with, "I had to get over my discomfort speaking in front of the class, so students with serious anxiety disorders need to do so too".
Didn't anyone in school every explain the difference between anecdote and evidence?
A little math, a little science, a little English (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to me in middle school and high school we teach everyone a little bit of math, a little bit of science, a little bit of English, a little bit art, etc. Some people enjoy math and are good at it. Some people don't like math and aren't very good at it. People who don't like math shouldn't major in math at a university, but I think it makes sense for everyone to learn a little math, a little English, etc. Everyone should have some basic competency.
Same with making a presentation - not everyone enjoys doing that, and like it's good for everyone to learn a bit of math, it's probably good for everyone to do a couple of presentations and gain a tad bit of very basic competency. Most jobs will require a presentation at some point, every job will require taking a deep breath and and doing something you're not 100% comfortable with. Asking for a raise sure does, at most any job. Some basic competency in doing presenting, and a little bit of experience doing something that isn't easy, seems like a really beneficial thing.
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When you think about harm, you are ignoring one thing: frequency. Frankly, I'd rather be beaten up once than having to hear every day, for 6 years, "loser" by everyone around me, and that is the power of bullying in schools. While I agree with you that making a fuss out of every time a kid swears at another is stupid, constant psychological pressure is something that has an effect. If armies can use this to manipulate their soldiers and countries can use this to manipulate their citizens, then children can
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Maybe you should go read a little bit about John Nash, and the accommodations that were made for him.