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California Voters Embrace Year-Round Daylight-Saving Time (sfchronicle.com) 279

Californians warmed to the idea of year-round daylight-saving time, approving an initiative that would urge state lawmakers to junk the annual springing forward and falling back. From a report: With 43 percent of precincts reporting Tuesday night, Proposition 7 was leading 61 percent to 39 percent. It's a long way from here to year-round daylight-saving time. First, the Legislature would have to approve it by a two-thirds vote. Then Congress would have to allow California to deviate from standard time when most of the rest of the nation shifts to it.
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California Voters Embrace Year-Round Daylight-Saving Time

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  • by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:02PM (#57607574) Homepage Journal

    Let's get real, it's highly probable that both Oregon and Washington State will follow suit. Just easier.

    • How is it easier than just abandoning DST entirely?
    • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt AT nerdflat DOT com> on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:29PM (#57607762) Journal

      That will be problematic for Washington, where for a period of about 10 weeks in the winter, sunrise already doesn't happen until after 7:30AM, and up near the Canadian border it doesn't rise until after 8AM... having DST in effect year round pushes that sunrise to after 8:30 AM and as late as shortly after 9AM. Peak morning rush hour commute time is 8:00 AM which means that more people will be getting deprived of having sunlight exposure at all early in the day, which is a very critical aspect of maintaining proper melatonin levels and having a healthy sleep cycle. This, in turn, is going to cause a sharp uptick in the number of health disorders related to inadequate sunlight exposure and/or restful sleep... having that extra hour in the evening might be convenient, but does not convey the same health benefits as exposure to sunlight shortly after waking up.

      But hey.... gotta love those unintended consequences, right?

      #eyeroll

      • by Strider- ( 39683 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:32PM (#57607786)

        As someone who lives in Vancouver, BC, I’m all for sticking with DST year ‘round. While it means that the morning commute will be dark, it’s dark already. Sticking to DST year ‘round means that i’ll At least have some dusk and natural light for the drive home, or even when I’m at home after work.

        • by mark-t ( 151149 )

          BC is even further north than Washington state, and the problem would be even worse where you live.

          Sticking to DST year âround means that iâ(TM)ll At least have some dusk and natural light for the drive home, or even when Iâ(TM)m at home after work.

          I'm not knocking the idea of having some sunlight when you go home or after work, but having sunlight exposure late in the day, after you have been awake and working throughout it, will not have the same beneficial effect on melatonin levels that

          • by Strider- ( 39683 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:39PM (#57608270)

            I’m guessing you don’t live up here. I work a typical white collar, 9-5 job with a relatively short commute (~30 minutes or so).

            Right now, for the months of December and January, working that schedule means that I basically never see the sun except through the windows at work (and when I take a walk at lunch). Sunrise at the winter solstice is roughly 8:39am, and sunset is at 16:26. It’s deep into the dark by the time I get home.

            Sticking to DST means that the sun rises at 9:39, which means it’s no difference to me since I’m already waking up in the dark, but sunset is at 1726, meaning that I at least get to watch it go down as I drive home, and have some dusk as I’m out and about.

            • by mark-t ( 151149 )

              Sunrise at the winter solstice is roughly 8:39am

              Which means that at least part of your morning commute is after sunrise, and you are gaining benefits of exposure to sunlight which helps your melatonin levels.

              And even if you went to work much earlier, why should the preference for having sunlight in the evening be more important than people's health?

        • by epine ( 68316 )

          Sticking to DST year-round means that I'll at least have some dusk and natural light for the drive home, or even when Iâ(TM)m at home after work.

          Small fly in the ointment: your body's response to light exposure at dawn and dusk differs. For most people, half an hour of bright light first thing in the morning helps to entrain a consistent, early sleep rhythm.

          For many people, without any early light, their sleep phase drifts towards the owl pole. This won't stop you from sleeping at your chosen time. But

          • Too bad none of the clinical results line up with that theory. It was mainstream while it lasted, though.

      • by EvilSS ( 557649 )

        Peak morning rush hour commute time is 8:00 AM

        Really? because most places I've lived it's 6:30-7:30 am since most people are getting to work at 8am. Of do you guys not have a lot of traffic up there?

        • by mark-t ( 151149 )

          For what it's worth, Morning rush hours in most urban areas run from about 6:00AM to 9:00AM, with the peak time typically being at about 8AM, where people who needed to be at work by 8 are just arriving to work, and people who work later are often just getting on the road.

          As sunrise in the winter in Washington is usually *before* 8AM (and only after it for a few days when you are practically living on the Canada US border), people who need to be at work by 8AM are still generally getting the benefits of

      • Would also potentially be trouble for the 11 or so people who live in the extreme eastern bit of Oregon near Ontario which are in mountain time. (for whatever reason.)

      • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Thursday November 08, 2018 @03:03AM (#57610656)

        #eyeroll

        That's about the only part of your post that is relevant. The rest of your post comes across the same way as all the other pro / anti DST arguements such as the curtains fading, the cows getting upset and every other bit of bullshit.

        An hour change in the morning won't affect humans in the slightest. You want a healthy sleep cycle? Sleep at healthy intervals. Your "body clock" is not your master and if you for some reason are its slave then get yourself some blackout curtains and sunrise alarm clock and let the rest of the human race enjoy the additional sunshine.

        Sidenote: Only good things come from not having peak hour *during* sunrise. The accident rate is the highest at any point in the day right as the big bright ball crosses the horizon.

    • It is unlikely that Oregon would do so unless the US Congress acts first.

      It would require a vote, and we don't like to vote for shit that doesn't pass Federal muster.

      Like with legalizing marijuana; we voted no on the first few plans, because they didn't match up with well enough with the State/Federal divisions of power. Voters waited for a scheme that can stand up.

      Just the fact, "we can't actually do this yet" will cause many Oregonians who would otherwise support it to get pissed off that it is even on th

    • I hope so! I work on scheduling and time clock software that is hardcoded to LA time but we're based out of Seattle, so this is going to suck. Some of our COBOL code is over 38 years old. I'm still manually fixing employee clock ins that happened Sunday morning during the clock fallback to give them an extra hour of pay. Again, this is going to suck.

  • What the hell is "year-round daylight-saving time" ? Isn't that just "time"?

    Or are they suggesting that California rates it's own time zone now, where they are essentially Mountain Time until spring, when Oregon and Washington join them by moving forward an hour? Because that doesn't get confusing at all.

    Maybe it's time DST just goes away altogether?

    • Re:What the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:15PM (#57607644) Journal

      What they are saying is instead of going with the natural time (noon is midday, and midnight is... well, midnight), they want to keep the shifted time where we get up an hour earlier, so that we have more daylight later in the day after work.

      It's interesting because two issues are being convoluted. One is having to change times twice a year, and the other is it getting dark earlier than people want. The former is a pain in the butt and disruptive, the latter is natural.

      The "right" way to do it is do away with time changes and DST, and simply move schedules an hour earlier. School starts an hour earlier, work starts an hour earlier, etc. But apparently this is psychologically too difficult to embrace so instead we'll just pretend 8 PM is 9 PM, and call "6 AM" "7 AM", so we don't think we are waking up earlier and going to be earlier.

      • Re:What the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:44PM (#57607876) Homepage

        The "right" way to do it is do away with time changes and DST, and simply move schedules an hour earlier. School starts an hour earlier, work starts an hour earlier, etc. But apparently this is psychologically too difficult to embrace

        It's more about coordination than psychology. Maybe software developers are used to flexible hours but retail, healthcare, transportation and a lot of other sectors are tied to the clock. What happens if the school changes but work doesn't? What about contracts that specify working hours? Are stores willing to switch if customers split between early and late? What about rules for overtime pay that kick in at night? There's a million little things that make it easier for a majority to change the time zone rather than change everything else and then those who don't like it can try scheduling things an hour later if they can.

        • Re:What the hell? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by adolf ( 21054 ) <flodadolf@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:51PM (#57608358) Journal

          Nobody's suggesting getting rid of the clock.

          But even as it stands, some businesses are open from 6-2, some are 7-4, others from 8-5, some are 8-4, and some are 10-6 [...]. It seems that we get along just fine with these already-wide variations in operating hours, where the first-shift factory worker's day is half-gone before the shop that is open from 10-6 even opens the doors. This is normal and it works as well as it needs to. Further discussion of this aspect is a really stupid thing to be doing.

          Plenty of us are fed up with the twice-yearly tomfoolery of changing the clocks, though.

          Solar noon happens at the same time every single day of the year for a given meridian.

          If we stop doing DST, then the days just get shorter as winter approaches: The sun comes up a bit later, and goes down a bit earlier. The opposite happens after winter is over and the days get longer. No big deal.

          If you need daylight to perform your job, you're already adjusting your schedule based on the sun.

          The rest of your questions can be answered with "Figure it out once, and then write it down. And then change it later if it seems like a good idea." Just like every fucking thing else in business.

      • What they are saying is instead of going with the natural time (noon is midday, and midnight is... well, midnight), they want to keep the shifted time where we get up an hour earlier, so that we have more daylight later in the day after work.

        So they're saying they want to stop DST and just move to a different time zone.

    • by caseih ( 160668 )

      There has to be a way to name the new time zone they are creating. Thus to separate it from PST, they'll just call it PDT.

      It's only confusing for those living outside of this permanent PDT time zone.

    • Keeping DST means you keep the "pushed" ahead time. Currently, they switch between GMT -8 and GMT -7. Permanent DST keeps them at GMT -7, instead of GMT -8. That means midday (on solstice) will be 1 PM instead of Noon. Sunrise and sunset will be 1 hour later.
      • So, it's Mountain Standard Time year round, same as Arizona which doesn't use DST.

        It puts two issues together - the time change issue and the issue of DST or no DST. As well as allowing the legislature to change the time of DST start and end. That's the ultimate problem with California propositions - they're not written by a committee who has sat down and thought things through, they're often written by a disgruntled person with a gripe who's able to raise money to get it on the ballot. Many of these prop

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      It means that local "noon" will be roughly equivalent to one hour before the sun reaches maximum elevation around that longitude.

      The basic idea is that people are firmly entrenched in the idea of what happens at what particular number is indicated on a clock, moreso than simply adapting to whatever actual time happens to be advantageous.

      i.e. getting to work at "9AM" is an immutable, unchangeable state of the universe, while the actual position of the sun in the sky relative to your location on earth at 9AM

      • Re:What the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by hey! ( 33014 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:06PM (#57608056) Homepage Journal

        I like to have dinner around 6:30 PM. I could wait until each member of my family happened to be hungry and then feed them individually, but I don't. Because we all know dinner is coming at 6:30, everyone times their earlier meals they're ready to eat at 6:30. This is not natural behavior, but neither is it somehow underhanded. It's simply a logistical convenience made possible by the invention of the clock.

        That's pretty much how all non-agrarian work is coordinated: we agree on when we'll show up for work and when we get home.

        The purpose of daylight savings was to give people working industrial jobs more daylight leisure time in the summer. Remember, when it was first adopted electric lighting wasn't something those people would have. They could have got the same effect by telling everyone in your society to adjust their schedule twice a year, but the government doesn't regulate the start and end time of work shifts. It *does* regulate the time standard, making that the simplest mechanism for accomplishing this.

        Daylight savings never made sense in near-tropical or near-arctic regions. Nor is the case for shifting back and forth between standard and daylight savings compelling in a world of ubiquitous electric lighting. You can either stick with standard time, and lose summer daylight leisure time, or stick with savings time year round, getting ready for work in the winter with the aid of light bulbs.

        • You're confusing the benefit of accurate timekeeping for the purposes of coordination with the dogmatization of the INDICATED time taking precedence.

          i.e. is 6:30PM dinnertime because we agreed to have it at the time that will be indicated at 6:30PM today, or is it because dinnertime is somehow inherently 6:30PM?

          The benefit of the accurate timekeeping is that you can all have dinner at the same time -- and that time will happen whether your clock says 6:30PM, 6:30AM, or is marked with random trapezoids ("din

        • Also DST was not implemented to give people leisure time. It was first implemented as national policy by the Central Powers during World War I in a (failed) attempt to save fuel to revive their war effort. The Entente/Allies followed suit since they didn't know if it would work or not but didn't want to risk giving any advantage to Germany and her allies. After WWI most places promptly dropped the practice.

          Then WWII came around and a bunch of countries tried again, hoping to save fuel. It didn't help.

          The c

        • by Osgeld ( 1900440 )

          its dark when I go to work and now that we fell back its dark when I leave so I don't see the sun during the winter

        • the purpose of Daylight savings was to give people more shopping hours. Retailers like it because folks shop less when the sun goes down. We've basically massively inconvenienced ourselves so that sales don't dip a bit in the winter.
      • by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

        Now the clock is somehow more important than actual, physical reality.

        Technology also made this happen. Every time somebody doesn't like the time and changes their rules, every computer on the planet needs a software change. The cost of doing that and the resulting security rules and confusion makes this no longer worth doing.

      • I recall a study that showed that regardless use of DST, people generally organize their lives around evening television schedules.

        • Maybe in the 1990's and before. Nowadays we have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, YouTube, endless porn, DVRs, etc. I think that outside of geriatric wards very few people organize their lives around evening television schedules.
    • Re:What the hell? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:35PM (#57607806)

      No, the headline is sort of wrong. The oficial summary includes "Permits the Legislature by two-thirds vote to make future changes to California’s daylight saving time period, including for its year-round application, if changes are consistent with federal law." So it could mean that the legislature could change DST to happen on different dates as well.

      And I voted against it I think. Permanent DST is stupid, where as permanent abandonment of DST is smarter. I agree that the change in time twice a year is dumb, but permanently being off by an hour and effectively being in a different time zone altogether is dumber. I think it's confusing to people who just want to get rid of the twice a year time change but who don't realize that DST is not the "standard" time.

      Overall this proposition will have zero effect because states can't change these rules unilaterally. However, currently states are allowed to choose to not have DST at all, which applies to most of Arizona, and California probably doesn't even need a proposition for that. Hopefully the legislators are smart enough not to push forward with this.

      • by Nutria ( 679911 )

        where as permanent abandonment of DST is smarter

        You say that until you wonder why the sun is rising at 4:40AM in the summer (in June in Los Angeles, it rises on June 23 at 5:40AM DST), and there's an hour less light in the evening.

        • What's wrong with that. There is a lot more hours of sunlight in the summer than in the winter. It's a balance between those who hate it being dark in the morning an dthose who hate it dark in the evening. It is impossible to please everyone here so it's better to err on the side of common sense.

        • by Jerrry ( 43027 )

          "You say that until you wonder why the sun is rising at 4:40AM in the summer (in June in Los Angeles, it rises on June 23 at 5:40AM DST), and there's an hour less light in the evening."

          So what? Don't like it? Just get up and hour earlier and go to work an hour earlier so you can leave earlier if you want more daylight after work. Don't force everyone else onto your schedule. Or better yet, get a night job and then you can have as much daylight as you want during your non-working hours.

      • by Trogre ( 513942 )

        Fine, just don't call it DST then.

        There is no easy-for-the-masses time algorithm that can ensure the clock strikes 12 noon when the sun is at its highest point over your town every day year-round.

        Therefore, just pick a single time zone that loosely models the above and best fits the needs of the community, then stick to it.

        • And for California, it fits quite well and is balanced in GMT-8 and Pacific Standard Time. Going permanently to DST throws it off by an hour.

    • No, when DST is in effect you are off standard time, the phrase "year round dst" would mean staying on that offset all year. We just went back from that offset to standard time

  • We're a small part of the equations, but this would be a good thing for Arizona residents who make their way to California for vacations on the coast. Our clocks would be synced up 365 days out of the year.

  • The proposition that Californians (like me!) just voted to does not make any Daylight Savings Time year-round. All it does is give the state legislature power to address the issue of Daylight Savings Time.

    Now, it may well end up being that we pick one or the other or maybe just leave it, or it might be that nothing is changed. My preference would be to just keep DST all year round, because it would give me an extra hour in the afternoon to hang out at the beach and maybe surf. For example, today sunset i

    • My preference would be to just keep DST all year round, because it would give me an extra hour in the afternoon to hang out at the beach and maybe surf.

      And how's that going to work for you in mid winter, when sunset is at about 4:30 PM PDT? You can't get extra use from sunshine that isn't there, you know, as the country learned when they tried going to DST year round from 1973-1975.
      • by EvilSS ( 557649 )

        And how's that going to work for you in mid winter, when sunset is at about 4:30 PM PDT?

        He said staying on DST year round, not moving so far offshore that sunset would be at 3:30PM standard time (4:30PM daylight time). Do you even DST bruh?

        • I grew up in California, just like the OP, but recently moved to Colorado, where I just had my first White Halloween. My point, which obviously went over your head, is that if sunset is at 4:30 PDT, as it is in most of Southern California in mid winter, setting the clock forward so that sunset's at 5:30 won't be much help, especially as it gets cold (by California standards, of course) that time of year so that even if there's enough light for surfing it's probably too cold.
          • by EvilSS ( 557649 )

            My point, which obviously went over your head, is that if sunset is at 4:30 PDT,

            Do you know what PDT stands for? Maybe google it.

      • And how's that going to work for you in mid winter, when sunset is at about 4:30 PM PDT? You can't get extra use from sunshine that isn't there, you know.

        Easy, I just start surfing an hour earlier. I mean, why is this so hard that we have to change clocks twice a year?

        I don't expect to be able to legislate the analemma, but we can least stop with the fall ahead nonsense. It's a waste of time and energy and nobody likes it.

        • So you're able to get off of work an hour earlier in the winter? That's nice, but most people don't have that choice. Oh, and by the way, it's "spring forward, fall back" because you turn your clock back in an hour in the fall, not an hour forward. I know that you're from California, but so am I and I never had any trouble keeping that straight.
          • So you're able to get off of work an hour earlier in the winter?

            What is this "work" you speak of? I own my own business and on the few days I actually work, I knock off at lunch. I didn't move to this beautiful place so I could sit in some cubicle somewhere.

            • You're one of the lucky ones, then. Most people spend eight or more hours working on at least five days out of every seven.
              • You're one of the lucky ones, then. Most people spend eight or more hours working on at least five days out of every seven.

                I put in my time as a wage-slave. I'm one of the lucky ones to get out alive.

          • Actually, it sounds like he was from Texas originally so... Now you're off insulting Texans, but maybe you didn't catch it because you're really from Alabama and just moved to California because it's fantastic to be here.

            I would imagine that almost everyone posting here does in fact have the choice to leave work an hour or three early. Because we aren't widget makers or construction workers. Most are salaried employees who can, at the very least, choose their work hours.
  • Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) is the same as Mountain Standard Time (MST). (not to be confused with MT which generically refers to both MST and MDT)

    Seems to make sense to me. Disadvantage is now tech workers in California will have phone meetings to the East Coast that will be an hour off sometimes. Advantage is the harder to schedule meetings with India will be more consistent, as India does not use daily savings (and has a weird half-hour adjustment, UTC +5:30). Frankly the disadvantage is insignificant in

    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      Not a big deal. You already have to look up the time for remote locations. Keeping track of who changes to/from DST and on what date is too much work to handle manually. Calendar apps will do that for you. And on top of all that, you need to account for businesses that keep different hours [pinimg.com].

      • The calendaring apps make reoccurring meetings across time zones a bit weird when one region goes into a daylight savings change and another does not. It usually ends up following the organizer's own time zone, which isn't always obvious to attendees.

  • Or maybe, just maybe, this sparks the rest of the country to follow...

  • ... as long as that stupid time change twice a year ends.

  • DST is a royal pain for most people twice a year. I get that.
    We like to remove pain. I get that too.

    Does anyone remember why we have DST in the first place?
    Can anyone imagine what New York would be like without DST?

    I suspect that we're going to find out.
    And I'll wager that DST will return to New York within three years of being removed.

    I'm sure L.A. doesn't have the same needs as does New York.
    New York is a business city, whereby most people work in offices and in general business schedules.
    Let's say most

  • So Californians will enact year-round DST, which is fun and good, until they realize they're going to spend a couple of months of every year getting to work and school before sunrise, often in cold rainy weather. This is the sort of thing that people living in Seattle or Canada or Norway (and, oddly enough, Spain) may be familiar with, but for most Californians will come as a nasty surprise. I'd love to see the backlash when these voters realize what they've gotten themselves into.

    • Exactly the same sort of backlash Arizona faces, since they already do that? None what-so-ever. Businesses and people can adjust scheduling one time, and be done with it.
  • We all just got through discussing how much the concept of Daylight Saving sucks. So the Gilded State's response is to...make it permanent.. Yeah, right. Now Newsomstan will be permanently out of sync with surrounding states, rather than just every summer.

    This is the state that in earlier proposition drollery passed a toxic chemicals labeling law so draconian that now certain trees have to be labeled:
    https://www.acsh.org/news/2018... [acsh.org]

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