The People of Ohio Can Now Pay Their Taxes in Bitcoin (qz.com) 149
Starting this week, businesses in Ohio will be able to pay taxes in bitcoin through a new platform, OhioCrypto.com, a first in the US. From a report: For many enthusiasts, part of the appeal of crypto has been the very fact that these currencies are not backed by governments. That makes it harder for politicians to manipulate currencies to their own ends, they say. But for the same reason, states have sought to sideline cryptocurrencies, comfortable to dismiss bitcoin as a passing fad. So Ohio, and its treasurer Josh Mandel, see embracing them as a way to signal that the state is tech-savvy and forward-thinking. "I do see [bitcoin] as a legitimate form of currency," Mandel told (paywall) the Wall Street Journal.
BREAKING: OHIO BANKRUPT, Treasurer fleeing on foot (Score:1)
They better be cashing out the picosecond those BT transactions go through...
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Wallets are free, criminals already do this with cell phones and ID's and coin wallet thefts, so that's probably exactly who. And given that addition to the volatility... Gov's could lose a lot of money real fast. Taxpayer money. That'd be bad.
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A lot of places that embraced bitcoin quickly are already discontinuing it or not supporting it anymore.
It's never really been stable enough to be used properly as a currency. A currency that hops around in value up and down every few days isn't a very useful currency- it's an investment vehicle not a currency.
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Just when you thought it couldn't get worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I assume this is to associate wallets with real identities and then nail them with taxes.
Oh, you day traded crypto and made $10k in 2017, well, we'd like our cut of the shorterm capital gains.
Re:Just when you thought it couldn't get worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh no, people have to pay the taxes they owe. I'm so sorry for you.
Fuck assholes who think "it happened on a computer, so it's totally different". Fuck the people who think that means they can patent 100 year old things done on a computer. Fuck the companies that think they can ignore safety regulations because they're booking hotel rooms on a computer. Fuck assholes who say "I'd don't owe taxes because I made my money on a computer"
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Fuck assholes who say "I'd don't owe taxes because I made my money on a computer"
I prefer this version:
Fuck assholes who say "Everybody else can pay my share of the taxes because I made my money on a computer."
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I tend to agree with you.
My point is that everyone is ragging on the treasurer for allowing this, when to me it seems like an intelligent way to capture revenue that is due.
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Most likely reality, a major Ohio business douche buried himself in worthless bitcoin and paid off a lobbyist to push this through so that bitcoin can be dumped. Watch out citizens from OHIO you are about to get butt blasted by speculative bitcoin trades, wow, I can't see how the SEC can accept it, in terms of the security of the assets of a state. The state can buy fuck all with the bitcoin and will become a major holder and seller, basically selling down the value of the asset it buys or hoarding it to to
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Man.
Bitcoin caused all that shit?
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Only if you also think using any public infrastructure is trespassing, sending your kids to a public school is fraud, and are ok with us checking your tax return before sending police or firefighters to help you if you need it. Don't want to pay taxes, move to Somalia. Those of us who understand that a society is stronger if we pay for certain things jointly can stay here without you.
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Or Tennessee [nbcnews.com]...
Re:Just when you thought it couldn't get worse... (Score:5, Insightful)
Then stop using the publicly funded internet, thief.
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It's a response to someone saying that the purpose is to link people to bitcoin wallets to enforce tax laws. These are usually put forth by someone who thinks that is a bad thing. That's where it came from. According to the poster I was responding to, he thought it was just the government being clever. So, it may have come from "tone over text" issues.
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We have a winner!
Sure, that transaction is anonymous - until it's associated with a real-life ID. And then EVERY transaction you've ever made is now 100% traceable. Oh, we see you sent a few thousand dollars to some account in Kazakhstan in 2014, what was that for? Oh, and you cashed out a few coins in December 2017, but no mention of income was made. And why were you sending Satoshis at a regular clip in 2015 until now, to a recently-convicted oxy dealer?
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why do you think a single transaction tells you much about past ones?
If you dont know how bitcoin works; why post nonsense?
Hint: it doesnt work that way
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> I can now look at all transactions with that wallet and see what you did.
What is a "wallet" in your mind? Do you realize that there is no such thing as a "wallet" on the public part of the blockchain ?
There is no way to start from a single address and determine which other addresses belong to a wallet or not.
Modern wallet software will not re-use any addresses, so its generally not possible to determine much of anything much else about the person or wallet beyond that one single address.
There are foren
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BTC is somehow different, you can get and spend it in fairly anonymous ways and you can pay your OH state tax with it.
I'm not sure what you mean by the rest of your post though.
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They can't. That's why they ran for office. Their screwups cost everyone else a lot of money and destroy lives, but they usually get off with little more than a slap on the wrist most of the time.
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It doesn't natter why someone runs for office.
What matters is that people elected them.
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cannot comprehend how mind-bogglingly stupid [some/most] politicians can be
Can you spell out what you mean? I'm assuming you mean your comment to somehow apply in the context of crypto currency, but past that I'm not clear what point you're making.
Not stupid, cunning (Score:2)
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They will learn the details from the audit.
Foreign currency triggers gains/loss when converted to USD, I don't see why bitcoin would be any different.
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Bitcoin is (nominally) a currency, so do capital gains actually apply to changes in its value?
GBP, EUR, CAD, AUD, and JPY are actual currencies. If you buy them, and later sell them at a gain, what do you suppose happens?
If you guessed that you incurred a tax liability you'd (probably*) be correct.
Why do you think a gain on BTC is any different?
*Always consult your tax advisor.
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How do they know your basis?
You are required to tell them that when you fill it in on your tax form. The only way to obscure this would be to deliberately lie on your tax form and the penalty for doing that is going to be a lot, lot worse (probably jail) compared to just "forgetting" to declare your Bitcoin transactions.
Also, if US currency was deflationary would the government be allowed to collect capital gains taxes on your bank account?
No, provided it is a USD bank account because 1 USD will always be worth 1 USD and since the US government requires the buying and selling price of property to always be given in USD then there will never be a change
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It's worse than you thought.
The voters:
1.) Voted for those asshats or
2.) Voted against and lost or
3.) Didn't vote. [this is the majority vote]
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"The NSA Worked To “track Down” Bitcoin Users, Snowden Documents Reveal" https://theintercept.com/2018/... [theintercept.com] (March 21 "2018)
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how Bitcoin was created to fight corruption
And to what extent has it succeeded at this worthy goal?
Unbelievably stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
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Oh please, Ohio couldn't get any more morally or fiscally bankrupt if they imported a new government from Illinois.
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You actually think they're going hold the payment in bitcoin? They're using bitpay, it's going to converted to fiat the moment the payment is made.
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Mandel did not run for re-election, so he's out of a job in about a month. It may go away right then and there.
Also, this sounds a lot like "you pay your taxes in Bitcoin and we will turn around and convert that to cash". The person paying their taxes isn't going to get a bill for 0.53BTC and then the treasury is going to hold onto them in perpetuity. Everything is going to be dollar denominated and the conversion rate will be on the spot. Today you might need to pay 0.53BTC and tomorrow it might be 0.6
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In any case, the theoretical delay time begins with ten minutes to post to the blockchain and at what cost to both parties?
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I also like the opportunity cost:
"I paid 2 BTC for my state taxes and I'm glad I did, because they'd be worth $10 now if I kept them."
"I paid 2 BTC for my state taxes and I'm sad I did, because they'd be worth $10,000,000 now if I kept them."
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Yep, and the probability of no change at all is within a Plank unit.
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Mandel did not run for re-election, so he's out of a job in about a month.
Sounds to me like when the IT guy gets fired and he changes all the passwords and leaves an open can of sardines inside the aircon vent before they escort him from the building.
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as they would need to be to avoid such a volatile currency blowing up in their faces.
Blowing up how? If you're worried that it'll devalue while they hold it, don't; they'll cash it right away. What else you worried about?
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They'll still be hit with transaction costs that vary creating instability in revenue
Transaction costs are known up front, and I'm sure they'll simply have the payer cover those.
and they still have the potential for loss from second to second with an automated transaction... there'll still need to be a transaction that takes some time and bitcoin value changes constantly. There only really exists a potential for them to lose
You're right that fluctuations may cause transactions to go through with slightly different values than those intended, but you're wrong to say they can only lose. Fluctuations are in general random, and on average will result in neither loss nor gain. And if things are on a long downward slope like they are right now (coming off the "speculation" nuttiness), they can simply add a small additional fee for the paye
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This is almost certainly going to be ruinous for Ohio's bottom line. I highly doubt anyone associated with the Ohio treasury is as involved and up to speed on crypto transactions as they would need to be to avoid such a volatile currency blowing up in their faces.
The problem with Crypto is that is not stable enough to be consider as a day to day currency, as we are still years away from that point to happen.
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Wait.
You're reacting to this story as if every goddam citizen of Ohio owns bitcoin.
I'm a betting man, and I'll wager that there are WAY more people who just don't bother to pay taxes than there are people who own (and will pay using) bitcoin.
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People who don't pay taxes via fiat aren't going to pay using bitcoin.
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Try posting with class. My post is in context. Go back and read up.
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TL;DR
TFS and TFA are about paying taxes with bitcoin. That opens the door for alternatives of paying by fiat or not paying at all.
Keep your eye on the ball. It's the little round thing.
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TL;DR
OK, just kidding that time.
So, you're saying tax evasion, as an option, is off the table?
How does the introduction of bitcoin cause that?
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Ever notice that long-thread response character counts are shaped like an inverted polyhedron in which the base is a polygon and all lateral faces are triangles?
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Manipulation (Score:3)
For many enthusiasts, part of the appeal of crypto has been the very fact that these currencies are not backed by governments. That makes it harder for politicians to manipulate currencies to their own ends, they say.
Who needs the government to manipulate your currency when speculators already do so with tumultuous and unpredictable swings in value every day?
Wait,that's bitcoin's appeal? (Score:2)
I thought the appeal behind bitcoin was supposed to be it's anonymous (really pseudonymous). I thought gold was supposed to be the "I don't trust fiat currency" asset.
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It's not anonymous, but people think it is. It is pseudonymous, but tying pseudoidentity to real identity isn't that hard.
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Actually, when it comes to being anonymous or even pseudonymous it's worse than checks and credit/debit card transactions. Say, I buy 10 kilos of blow and pay with a personal check, a very stupid thing to do. There are laws in place that prevent the local bacon brigade from simply going down to the bank and digging through the books till they find something. They have to go through procedures, get warrants, and have probable cause. Then they narrow their search to specific parameters indicated in the
They aren't taking bitcoin (Score:2)
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And in other news ... (Score:2)
Michigan agrees to accept Beanie Babies as tax payments. Colorado agrees to accept Magic Trading Cards. And in a surprise move, California will accept any baseball card printed prior to 1965.
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When can I pay my taxes in Yapese Rai [wikipedia.org]?
This is a good thing - free from US banks (Score:2)
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tech-savvy and forward-thinking (Score:2)
"So Ohio, and its treasurer Josh Mandel, see embracing them as a way to signal that the state is tech-savvy and forward-thinking."
Like Orange County California, I bet
https://www.investopedia.com/a... [investopedia.com]
Just like Robert Citron, Josh is playing with other people's money. He should get smacked down fast.
This is how bad things have become for Bitcoin (Score:4, Informative)
This story is getting a lot of hype from the BTC evangelists. Of course, the truth is that Ohio is only accepting dollars for taxes. The Ohio treasury is using BitPay to convert BTC immediately into dollars, minus whatever fees are charged for the conversion. Unless you've already had BTC in your possession prior to 2017, what's the point?
The question that BTC evangelists hope you won't ask next is "Who else is still accepting Bitcoin for payments?" Here's a list of companies as tallied last month: https://unblock.net/companies-... [unblock.net]
You might recognize maybe half a dozen names from that list. As a means of conducting day-to-day retail transactions, BTC has dropped off the map. It is rarely even mentioned anymore.
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There are 5 places within 30 miles from my location and all of them are Chinese restaurants.
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Unconstitutional (Score:3)
States can't make any thing other than gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debts. The legal dodge is that the states aren't the Fed or the Treasury, so it isn't they that are making the requirement of transacting in fiat Federal Reserve Note dollars, so the constitutional restriction does not apply. This dodge fails if a state decides to accept something else as a tax debt payment.
Arguably a necessary characteristic of money is being able to pay your taxes in it, for instance the success of Worgl stampscript (negative interest currency) experiment of the '30s came largely from the local government accepting it as tax payment. The local government also issued it, which gave them the reason to accept it. The negative-interest aspect (had to buy stamps to affix to keep a currency note current) led to a huge increase in the velocity of money as people wished to avoid paying the stamps, and also a huge move toward long-term investment as negative interest rates turned the present-value calculation upside down, making money worth more the further in the future it would be taken out, rather than future returns being discounted.
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it sounds like they're not taking bitcoin themselves, they're just willing to connect to a bitcoin-dollar exchange to make your transactions simpler. They only wind up getting dollars.
Perfect timing! (Score:2)
other cynical readings (Score:2)
If there's any practical gap between the nominal value and the cash liquidity of Bitcoin, Ohio had better brace itself for a stampede of Bitcoin payments.
If there's any practical gap, this might be a cynical move on the part of some wealthy Ohio speculator with political connections.
Most likely this is some person who scored a Bitcoin windfall and now wishes to return to an actual cash position at face value, who increasingly anticipates a Bitcoin implosion any day now.
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Ohio isn't taking bitcoin directly, they just have a vendor who will take [they don't care how much bitcoin] and gives them [$ you owe[. Your taxes are denominated in dollars.
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of course, no sane government would take taxes in any so-called cryptocurrency.
it is a fad and scam, and it's running out of gas. don't be a bagholder.
How does it work in practice? (Score:2)
Let say I earned $100k this year. How much do I owe in BTC? Can I play the volatility at my advantage?
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Your side is USD -> Middlemen -> BTC then Ohio is going to go BTC -> Middlemen -> USD. The middlemen in both transactions will be a combination of your banks, and the exchange provider who is commiting to buy and sell at some fixed price at a moment. Increased volatility puts that exchange middleman in greater risk so it doesn't help you.
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They're trolling (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure they did it solely to shut up that guy who always posts that "Bitcoin isn't a real currency because you can't pay your taxes with it". ;^)
Ohio thinks Bitcoin has bottomed (Score:2)
Trump won Ohio in 2016.... (Score:1)
Not ready for cryptocurrency. Or any science at all.
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Just close your web browser. Delete /. from your bookmarks. Use some other community where everybody loves you. How fucking hard is it to work that out?
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1 bitcoin is always 1 bitcoin. It's relation to a basket of goods only exists through the dollar as a proxy. People are still sniffing dollars and everyone gets mad at bitcoin? WTF?
Because if not for 'the dollar as a proxy' you wouldn't be able to trade your 1's and 0's for that basket of goods.
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From a quick google search...
As a noun, a cue is either a signal or a piece of sporting equipment. As a verb, it refers to the act of signaling someone, or the act of striking a ball in billiards games. As a noun, a queue is a lineup of people or other things. As a verb, queue means to line something up or to form a line.
The GP's use of queue seems quite apropos. Though both are acceptable.
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So you and the AC thinks the arguments are ordered, I don't agree.