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The Almighty Buck Transportation Businesses

NYC Votes To Set Minimum Pay For Uber, Lyft Drivers (arstechnica.com) 134

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: On Tuesday, New York City's Taxi and Limousine Commission voted to set a minimum pay rate for Uber, Lyft, and other on-demand ride-hailing drivers. The new rate will be set at $17.22 after expenses, or $26.51 per hour gross. New York is believed to be the first city in the nation to implement such a pay floor. Four months ago, the Big Apple also imposed a cap on the number of such vehicles in the city. The Independent Drivers Guild, a local affiliate of the Machinists Union, advocated for the change. Meanwhile, Uber has already put out a statement saying that increased driver earnings "will lead to higher than necessary fare increases" and that the new rules do not adequately take into account "incentives or bonuses forcing companies to raise rates even higher." "Today we brought desperately needed relief to 80,000 working families. All workers deserve the protection of a fair, livable wage and we are proud to be setting the new bar for contractor workers' rights in America," Jim Conigliaro, Jr., founder of the Independent Drivers Guild, said in a statement.
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NYC Votes To Set Minimum Pay For Uber, Lyft Drivers

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  • by sexconker ( 1179573 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:49PM (#57750498)

    Uber and Lyft are dead if their drivers actually get paid. Currently, drivers for both Uber and Lyft make negative money if they have to pay for fuel or vehicle maintenance.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      since each drivers costs are variable, how can they even begin to measure this?

      oh, right, I forgot...ignoring overhead. key to the Uber/Lyft business model from the beginning.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        $26/hr seems really high for just driving a car. Is that rate only applicable while a passenger is inside? Meaning their average hourly rate is actually lower?

        • $25/hr gross... in Manhattan?What are you; a high-functioning retard??
      • taxi system + cell phone plan reimbursement!

    • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:17PM (#57750634)

      Currently, drivers for both Uber and Lyft make negative money

      How do we all know you are lying? Two ways:

      1) What idiot would work for a day for negative money? Yes there remains tons of Lyft and Uber drivers. Therefore, you are lying.

      2) Every Uber or Lyft driver I have talked to (and I talk to all of them) make a fair amount of money, most of them love the job because it's a way they can make extra money and they get to choose when and how often to work. They can easily control for higher rates by choosing to work mostly during peak times where surge pricing nets them a lot more. Therefore, you are lying.

      Drivers make not make much at times but all of them are savvy and now how to work the system so they are doing much better than "negative money".

      If you want something approaching negative money, try being the owner of.a once valuable taxi license...

      • by sexconker ( 1179573 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:29PM (#57750678)

        1: There are plenty of idiots who work for negative money. They do so because they don't realize that they're paying for the increased maintenance and wear on their car. The cost is externalized to the point that they don't realize it exists.

        2: They are stupid and / or lying. Go ahead and look up any internet article on the subject. Further, taxi medallions are hugely profitable. Buying into one after Uber / Lyft came into the scene and eschewed all the laws would have been moronic and a huge loss. But actual owners of those medallions are still making obscene amounts of money.

        The only way to "work the system" is to get a ton of tips (Uber didn't even let people tip via the app for the longest time, and were shamed into allowing it), or drive for both Uber and Lyft at the same time and pickup double / fake fares when Uber / Lyft are handing out free rides to customers. This was a huge scam recently, and it was reported even here on Slashdot.

        As usual, you don't know shit. Now I see why that AC troll goes around posting all that shit about you.

        • They may not make much, but the drivers DO make money. How about some links asshole to prove your points. OH wait, your just an asshole and can't be expected to back up your claims.

          https://www.marketwatch.com/st... [marketwatch.com]

          â Uber drivers typically collect $24.77 per hour in passenger fares.
          â From that, Uber takes $8.33 in commissions and fees, about a third of all passenger fares.
          â Vehicle expenses like gas and maintenance cost drivers about $4.87 per hour, Mishel determined, even after tak
      • by Anonymous Coward

        Most people aren't good at calculating hidden costs, or costs too far in the future. For example a friend drives Uber and has been putting an additional 30k miles on her car. When I asked if she had figured that into her costs she said no, because she would eventually have to get oil changes, new tires, brakes, etc. eventually regardless. I told her yes, but she has to do it three to five times sooner and more often. I also mentioned that the mileage is causing her car to depreciate faster, and none of that

        • by Anonymous Coward

          The IRS has already figured this out "on average".Look up whatever the current IRS mileage reimbursement rate per mile is. At the end of your day driving for uber/lyft subtract the total miles driven x whatever the IRS reimbursement rate is from the total fares you made for the day. If the result is a negative number you are loosing money driving for uber/lyft. Obviously this IRS rate isn't exact if you are driving your ford excursion to drive for uber/lyft you are pissing away that much more money per mile

          • by Anonymous Coward

            BTW the current rate for 2018 is 54.5 cents per mile. If you are driving around an average of 40 miles each hour, picked up 4 fares that neted you $40 in "wages" from uber/lyft that hour, you just threw away $21.8 on wear/tear/consumables for your vehicle. Then add in the fact that in a few years when you vehicle is no longer eligible to drive for uber/lyft cause of age you will be getting significantly less for it as a trade in to purchase your new car due to all the extra mileage you have racked up over t

            • by torkus ( 1133985 ) on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @08:38AM (#57752214)

              Oh AC...you so silly. But let's work out the math here.

              Even just taking the start of what you wrote: You drove for 1 hour, grossed $40, netted ~$20 and are ahead of the $17 minimum in TFA.

              But also, that's the write-off which typically is higher than actual cost and DOES INCLUDE the vehicle cost/depreciation/fuel/etc. The whole point of that rate per mile is the actual, total cost to be driving the vehicle. Lets break that down a bit:

              For 12k miles it's $545/month.
              For 24k miles it's ~$1100
              For 48K miles (typical for a full time uber/lyft driver) that's $2200
              Now, $2200 is your IRS approved cost write-off. If your actual costs are lower, it's more money in your pocket. Working backwards from there:

              4k miles / 25mpg * $3/gal fuel = $600. This depends on your vehicle and gas prices but uses current fuel and 2016 MPG numbers. A prius will be less.
              $20k - average price for a 3 year old car or ~$400/month over 5 years - actual depreciation will be *less* than this of course
              $200/month insurance - varies significantly by location, but even doubled this is easily viable.
              That leaves a full $1000 a month for maintenance which is overkill so your tax deductions will net you ~30% back on whatever of this you don't spend. Conservatively, that's at least a few grand in your pocket per year.

              So after working all that out, you're still making $40k per year including full depreciation of the vehicle in 5 years and all maintenance/fuel.

              • by dasunt ( 249686 )
                Isn't the mileage a below-the-line deduction? So it is effectively less paid in taxes - assume 25% tax rate (federal), that's spending $2200 and saving $550 in taxes. So if you spend less than the difference between those two numbers, you come out ahead.
      • by Agripa ( 139780 )

        1) What idiot would work for a day for negative money? Yes there remains tons of Lyft and Uber drivers.

        If the cost of not working is even more negative money, then it may be acceptable for a time.

    • you shouldn't be in business. If I want to keep your argument going we could just go back to company towns and defacto slavery. After all, you're free to sign a contract with the coal mine or starve, right? It's not like the economic is becoming a monopoly [google.com] or anything, right?
      • A wage is fixed, regular payment. Uber doesn't pay a wage; the job isn't designed as full-time work. There are lots of jobs that aren't. That's why they're gigs.

        What should the hourly rate of a paperboy who works 14 hours/week be? Or a wedding photographer? Or a drummer who only plays on weekends?

        • by torkus ( 1133985 )

          What should the hourly rate of a paperboy who works 14 hours/week be? Or a wedding photographer? Or a drummer who only plays on weekends?

          Actually, this is relatively straightforward to look up. The concept of the gig economy is based on small increments of committed work (e.g. single ride) vs. larger, and typically time-based, commitments of a normal job (e.g. 2 hour shift). Gigs are also typically infrequent, irregular work.

          There's a grey area when gigs aren't gigs anymore...such as when you're driving 40+ hours a week. Uber wants to keep considering it a gig because that benefits them immensely, but the reality of the situation requires

      • How do you define a "living wage"?

        Should employers have to pay enough for someone to live where they work? What about a corner store on the upper West side of Manhattan where rents could run six, seven figures annually?

        What if the job you need doing isn't worth that much? What if you could use help at your business, but it's only worth $30k/y to you and you live somewhere where a "living wage" would be $45k/y?

        What about part-time workers? Do they get a living wage despite working 20 hours a week

    • by BankRobberMBA ( 4918083 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:09PM (#57751018)

      I have a good friend driving for both in NYC. He is driving a 4 or 5 year old car (he bought it I think 2.5 years ago). He makes about $50,000/year driving. He has a part time restaurant job, as well.

      He bought the car specifically to drive for Uber (and later started Lyft). He has been paying extra on the car. It is nearly paid off now. The car has paid for itself, including all maintenance and insurance, and gas. The money left over paid part of his rent (he only rents a room, but still pays too much). The remainder of the rent and his other expenses are covered by the restaurant gig.

      In another year he will have the car free and clear and will (probably*) still be making money with it. In the meantime, he has had use of the car for a couple of years. This is not negative money.

      *: Don't get me started on Uber's long-term survivability.

      • I have a good friend driving for both in NYC. He is driving a 4 or 5 year old car (he bought it I think 2.5 years ago). He makes about $50,000/year driving.

        You didn't mention how many hours he's working for that money. If its 40 hours a week * 52 weeks he's grossing $24/hr, which is close to the proposed floor.

        A few comments:
        The regulation is assuming a net after expenses of $17.22, which is $35K/yr pre-tax (at 40hrs/week). That's not really livable in NYC.
        From https://careertrend.com/how-ma... [careertrend.com], a typical NYC cab driver
        - drives 12 hours/day. At that rate before expenses your friend would be grossing $16/hr
        - drives 47K miles/year, of mostly rough city stop/s

        • I know he's not driving 40 hrs. He was driving crazy hours when he started, but slowed down to something reasonable when he saw he was gonna be ok on money. Not sure how many hours he's doing now.

          As far as this regulation, I don't really have an opinion. I was just responding to the poster who said they are making negative money.

        • by torkus ( 1133985 ) on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @09:00AM (#57752326)

          I don't think you live in NYC...

          $35k/yr definitely isn't livable in NYC, but at the same time is totally is. It takes a different approach and many people in NYC accept that (or get NYCHA housing and live for almost free).

          The $17/hr minimum is considerably (+24%) higher than the NYC minimum wage of $13/hr set about a year ago.Guaranteeing that wage to someone working a highly flexible, self-directed job with effectively no boss is actually ... strange. Well, until you realize the taxi commission is working to destroy uber in NYC and get their control back.

      • He makes about $50,000/year driving. The money left over paid part of his rent

        So after expenses it doesn't even cover all of rent? I know rent is high in NYC but $50k only pays part of rent? Or are you confusing gross revenue with net profit (income)?

    • by brunes69 ( 86786 )

      I use Uber every time I travel for business.

      The price for the ride is irrelevant because it is expensed to the company. I don't use Uber to save me money, I use it because it works, its reliable, and its an app I know and understand and works in most major cities worldwide. I do not have the time or patience to install local taxii ride-hailing apps for every city I visit. Uber works everywhere.

      Do not underestimate how many of "me" there are. Business users - who really do not care much about the price - are

  • by Bradmont ( 513167 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:49PM (#57750502) Homepage
    In other words, "paying our workers a reasonable wage is not necessary."
    • In other words, "paying drivers that much will make our service affordable to many of our riders."

      In Pete's words, "For crying out loud, butt out. If drivers are being paid too little, they'd stop driving. Just how dumb do you think the drivers are?

      • by Kaenneth ( 82978 )

        visit /r/uber on reddit and see for yourself.

        Using uber is risking your life:

        https://www.nbcnewyork.com/new... [nbcnewyork.com]

        https://www.reddit.com/r/uber/... [reddit.com]

        • Oddly enough, your first example doesn't even involve an Uber driver. So I'm not sure what the point is.

          And the provenance of the second example is...questionable. Wow, two guys fighting. Were either or both Uber drivers? No telling, really. Yeah, it was so asserted by the poster, but so what? I can take a pic of my nephews fighting and call it a fight between Uber drivers (or an Uber driver and a Secret Service agent, or an Uber driver and a Russian gangster, or an Uber driver and a waiter at the lo

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        This isn't about helping the drivers. It is about limiting competition with the taxi racket.

        • by torkus ( 1133985 )

          This isn't about helping the drivers. It is about limiting competition with the taxi racket.

          Exactly this. People outside of NYC don't realize what power the TLC used to hold over the city...it's withered greatly since the advent of Uber but they still wield enormous power and are trying to retain back some of their former glory. Today, a taxi strike is not nearly the crippling threat it was 20 years ago.

      • In other words, "paying drivers that much will make our service affordable to many of our riders."

        Wouldn't the service be less affordable if drivers were paid more?

    • " reasonable wage" reasonable according to whom? Drivers are obviously willing to work for their current pay, who does the government need to but in?
      • Yeah, same for those kids in overseas sweatshops. Who's to say that it's cruel and inhumane?

  • So I can go out and buy a brand new Porsche 911 and Uber will have to cover my costs plus pay me a minimum wage? SWEET!
    • So I can go out and buy a brand new Porsche 911 and Uber will have to cover my costs

      Sure, up to $9.29 an hour. That info was in the summary (although it did require subtracting the pay from the gross.)

  • Uber has already put out a statement saying that increased driver earnings "will lead to higher than necessary fare increases"

    Necessary for who? In Uber mind, not for the drivers, obviously

  • This was advocated by the _Independent Drivers Guild_, a local affiliate of the _Machinists Union_....

    How does that even happen? Kind of a strange combination of interests, is it not?

    • Machinists operate machines. Cars are a type of machine (esp. when they were a new invention). Bigger unions usually mean more power.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      Unions sometimes have weird affiliations. For instance, when graduate students at the University of California organized, they formed a local of the United Auto Workers.

      Student workers reach agreement with UC [dailycal.org]

      If you enjoy watching a big liberal-on-liberal cat fight, there is nothing better than Union vs. University.

    • In many languages, the term for train driver is the same word as "machinist." It probably went from a train engine drivers' union to driving other vehicles.
    • Machine Shop is the place that makes a custom part to fix a commercial truck or trailer. They also have the press that is needed to replace wheel bearings. A Machinist is a person who operates the specific machines in Machine Shops.

      All the mechanics with commercial customers either have a machinist on staff, or are the customer of a machine shop.

      Taxi companies have their own auto mechanic shops. And independent drivers are often associated with an auto shop, and they may have the same owner.

    • by kqc7011 ( 525426 )
      When I was a millwright in a factory I was a member of the International Machinists and Aerospace Workers Union and not a member of the Millwrights and Machine Erector's unions or another union that has millwrights, the United Brotherhood of Carpenters. It all depends on which union does or did the organizing.
  • Are you paid for your time that you say you are available and waiting for someone to need a ride? What about time spent travelling to the pick up point?
    • Only if you're an employee. In this case, you're just a really under-informed independent contractor bidding on losing propositions.

  • by Gamer_2k4 ( 1030634 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:21PM (#57750646)
    So ride-sharing companies pull out of New York, and taxi companies are back in business. It's no surprise to me why they voted for this.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Not necessarily. It might just cause an increase in rates that customers still pay because they prefer it to taxis. It might cause a decrease in riders and therefore a decrease in drivers.

      If they did cease operations, it might actually reduce congestion.

  • Next up: Uber and Lyft must only employ drivers who own electric vehicles.
  • Headline should instead say, "NYC voters to set pay for Uber, Lyft drivers to zero". Because if Uber/Lyft withdraw, that's exactly what it's going to be.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I was sick and tired of being robbed and abused by the state and every action they take has a negative side effect that they NEVER take into consideration. They selectively discriminated against me and others in my line of work as well because we didn't have a lobby at the state house and it resulted in a 7% reduction in my earnings. This is suppose to be for the good of the "poor", but in reality it'll end up negatively impacting people. I put up with this shit for a few years before I left and moved somew

  • Would seem fair if both taxi and uber drivers got minimum wage. Usually, Taxi drivers (vs. owners) get skrewed worse than Uber ones, which is why they end up driving Uber.

  • The citizens of NYC are not voting
    The elected representatives of the citizens of NYC are not voting

    The voting is being done by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who have allegiances to the taxi and limousine industries.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    The drivers also need 401k plans, medical and dental plans, paid vacation and sick leave, profit sharing, pensions, etc.

  • by cats-paw ( 34890 ) on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:42AM (#57751494) Homepage

    Maybe somebody will finally explain to me why:

    1 uber and lyft are, absolutely, taxi companies so why don't the cities simply slap the same regs on them as what are on taxis ?

    2 ok, for some reason 1 doesn't apply. then taxi companies shouldn't exist.

    uber/lyft are taxi companies, either regulate them as such or just do away with the idea of taxi regulation.

    why do they keep treating them separately ??

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Because in NYC (and maybe other parts of the US), there's a difference between a taxi (unbooked/street-ordered) and a limo (pre-booked). Taxis are colored/marked in certain ways and pick up riders when called from the sidewalk. Limos (or any pre-ordered/booked such service) are ordered via phone calls. They can't pick up people off the street if flagged down and don't wear taxi markings. (Conversely, however, taxis can be called for pickups.)

      Uber and Lyft are using apps to make prearranged orders for a

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Because its not the regulations thats the issue. Uber could easily comply with if given a chance. I mean have you been in a cab in NYC recently?

      The issue is the Taxi medallions. They limit the supply and allow for higher prices to be charged. Thats all this is about in the end.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The original theory was that taxis which pick random people up off the street are different to services that are booked over the phone, which at a minimum collect and identifying phone number and probably payment details as well. Booked services also don't clog up the streets with waiting taxis in busy areas.

      Before sat nav existed taxi drivers had to have very good knowledge of the city too, especially for mazes like London. Booked services could in theory plan the route before hand with a map so the requir

  • This is clearly impractical. If you're driving for a ride-sharing company, how many rides are you taking? Where are you working? Do you drive efficiently or inefficiently? How can this map to any particular wage?

    Some drivers work for both Uber and Lyft. How do you prove they are refusing rides for one service, because they are currently transporting someone for the other service? Or do they get double the minimum wage?

    This looks like an attempt to force ride-sharing services into the taxi service model, whe

  • Aren't these drivers independent contractors? As Independent contractors, they are not entitled to a minimum pay because they aren't paid by the hour or a salary. They are paid on a per ride basis making it piece work. If I offer one dollar to independent contractor to make me something that takes one hour to make, that person makes one dollar per hour. If a company offers an independent contractor 50 dollars to do something, and it takes that person a week of 10 hour days to do that thing, that person made
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Firstly, why is taxi and limousine services dictating how ride sharing works?

    Secondly this service operates differently than they do, how can they demand a minimum wage? That's not even how this works.

    How can they demand such an astronomical rate? Look that's great for the driver, but you cant just monkey around with business models and the market in that way, if they don't want to drive Uber they DONT HAVE TO. Then the system will adjust itself to what people are willing to get paid and willing to pay. Cl

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