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United States China Government

US Pressed Chinese Firms To Show One Example of When They Resisted Request For Data From Chinese Government, But They Have Never Done So: WSJ (wsj.com) 70

The latest in the Huawei saga, which is increasing tension between the U.S. and China. WSJ reports about a remarkable event: Confronted with U.S. accusations of cyber espionage, Chinese companies and government officials often accuse Washington of hypocrisy, pointing to allegations in 2013 by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden that the U.S. had been hacking into key Chinese networks for years. Western officials say systems of checks and balances in their countries allow for companies to challenge those demands, unlike in China.

To further highlight that difference, U.S. officials have repeatedly pressed Chinese companies to demonstrate to them one example of a time they resisted a request for data from the Chinese government, but they have never done so, according to a person familiar with those conversations. U.S. intelligence officials have suggested at times that their views on Huawei are informed by definitive examples of malfeasance, though they have so far refused to share such evidence publicly. When the House Intelligence Committee in 2012 published an unclassified report naming Huawei as a security risk, it spoke generally about a lack of trust lawmakers placed in China but steered clear of providing concrete examples of the company being caught engaging in nefarious activity.

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US Pressed Chinese Firms To Show One Example of When They Resisted Request For Data From Chinese Government, But They Have Never

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  • by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @03:24PM (#58016440) Homepage Journal

    But those execs are in the Human Plastic Show right now.

    • by zlives ( 2009072 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @03:44PM (#58016548)

      wow China should totally implement the rubber stamp FISA system, heck just back date some warrants and call it good. Justice is served.

      • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @04:02PM (#58016664)

        TFA is just a long Whataboutism [wikipedia.org] rant. The fact that Chinese firms acquiesce to demands from the Chinese government, in no way whatsoever excuses the misbehavior of the American government.

        The Chinese judicial system is not comparable to the American system. They do not have an independent judiciary, so expecting a company to "challenge" an order doesn't make much sense. They also do not have an adversarial system, with a defense attorney and prosecutor trying to "win" regardless of the merits of the case, with an impartial judge as arbitrator. In China, the judge is often actively involved in the investigation, and will directly question witnesses. Their justice system works completely differently, in both good ways and bad.

        • by Shaitan ( 22585 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @04:17PM (#58016766)

          "in no way whatsoever excuses the misbehavior of the American government"

          This story isn't about alleged misbehavior on the part of the American government. If Chinese companies do not fight government requests then what is to stop the government from gaining access to American trade secrets those companies become privy to including their own trade secrets where the companies are branches of US companies operating in China?

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            If Chinese companies do not fight government requests then what is to stop the government from gaining access to American trade secrets

            Same thing that stops the US government getting access to Chinese trade secrets through American companies: nothing.

            If they haven't been hacked by the NSA yet they can just issue a National Security Letter or some other bullshit.

        • You can criticize "whataboutism" if "whatabout'ed" fault is not committed by yourself (or your own country in this context.) However, if yourself commits the same fault that you use to criticize your opponent, or even worse launching a war on the same accusation, that shows your immoral characteristic -- it's outright evil.

        • It's not Whataboutism, it's just Wot? The headline "US Pressed Chinese Firms To Show One Example of When They Resisted Request For Data From Chinese Government, But They Have Never Done So" tells me I'm supposed to be outraged about something, but it's phrased in such an obtuse manner that I have no idea what it is. Something about China, by the looks of it, and being asked to prove a negative.
  • by shking ( 125052 ) <babulicm AT cuug DOT ab DOT ca> on Thursday January 24, 2019 @03:37PM (#58016504) Homepage
    Sounds like the spin doctors have thrown the old loaded question fallacy against the wall to see if it will stick
    • by Anonymous Coward

      The journalist Alistair Cook pointed this out in the 1970's. It's a linguistic thing. In Mandarin, China is not a geographical space in which the government, people and corporations are separate and distinct actors. China is the government, and the people and corporations are permitted to be extensions of that.

  • I bet AT&T or Verizon can't show a single example of a time they resisted a request from the American government.
    • Apple and FBI. Quite public, too.
      • you so sure that that wasnt theater?
        • Option 1: Giant conspiracy
          Option 2: Feds don't have technical know-how to crack a brand new, designed in Cupertino/made in China phone.

          I'm on pretty firm ground assuming stupidity. I'm on less firm ground assuming hyper-competence.
    • I think an ex-CEO of Qwest told the FBI or someone to go fuck themselves once. IIRC, a year later he was doing time for some "completely unrelated" trumped up insider trading charge or something. Pretty much set the example for everyone else to play ball.

  • by ITRambo ( 1467509 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @03:41PM (#58016528)
    The issue is that Chinese firms directly are owned and micro managed by the Chinese government. The US chooses to avoid electronics that are shown to have been part of China's spy efforts. China will, naturally, downplay this difference as if there is no difference at all. There is. Chinese companies directly assist China in spying on the West. US firms do not directly do so.
  • Please resist your government, but Apple is teh evil for resisting the good ol' US of A

  • What a bizarre statement "U.S. officials have repeatedly pressed Chinese companies to demonstrate to them one example of a time they resisted a request for data from the Chinese government". News flash, China has a communist government. No individual or company has the right to resist the government. Bad things happen to anyone/thing that does try it. Any company stupid enough to try that in China would quickly cease to exist and therefore would not be able to demonstrate anything to anyone.
  • >> Western officials say systems of checks and balances in their countries allow for companies to challenge those demands, unlike in China

    USA to large tech: hey company with whom we have a large contract - we'd like to see details on X. If you can't show us, that's cool, but don't forget we're a big fan of your services...today anyway
    • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      USA to large tech: hey company with whom we have a large contract - we'd like to see details on X. If you can't show us, that's cool, but don't forget we're a big fan of your services...today anyway

      Trump said to dump iPhones for Samsungs. He did, for a couple of months, but has since switched back. This was after the FBI-Apple lawsuits and data requests.

      And unless everyone is lying, not all warranted data requests were fulfilled, either. The companies are even pushing back asking to reveal even more detaile

  • Arguing with my mother, my father, their siblings, their friends (all Chinese descent), I have learned that they can't handle criticism. Over the past 30 some odd years, in practically every conversation which included constructive criticism they've been completely defensive.
    --
    Conversations usually go like this:

    "Why don't my dumplings look as good as yours, can you help me?"
    -Them

    "If you pinch the edges of the dumpling too hard, the contents will leak out because you're overly thinning out the dough sk
  • by misnohmer ( 1636461 ) on Thursday January 24, 2019 @04:29PM (#58016878)

    Working against the government in China is a crime (or at the very least gets you on a bad side of the dictatorial government). Why would any company admit to doing it, even if they did?

  • In the same TFA,

    Western officials say systems of checks and balances in their countries allow for companies to challenge those demands, unlike in China.

    and

    U.S. intelligence officials have suggested at times that their views on Huawei are informed by definitive examples of malfeasance, though they have so far refused to share such evidence publicly.

    In the other news, they will also refuse to share real evidence of Iraq WMDs with the public.

    • In the other news, they will also refuse to share real evidence of Iraq WMDs with the public.

      After the break, we will also pretend that there is evidence of russian meddling.

      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        There actually *IS* evidence of Russian meddling in US elections. I haven't heard of much evidence WRT it being extensive or successful, but it might have been.

        P.S.: There's also evidence of the US meddling in various foreign elections and other policies. Surprise!

  • In China the Communist party wants the crypto and code.
    In the USA PRISM got the crypto.

    The EU makes the same demands on what publishing can be on social media.

    Should a Western brand invest and make its products in China understand what the Communist party will demand.
    Of the US brand.
    From all workers who are good Communists.

    Try a nation with the rule of law and who will support US freedoms.
  • Chinese most likely has them, just like the US does.

"The pathology is to want control, not that you ever get it, because of course you never do." -- Gregory Bateson

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