US Companies Are Moving Tech Jobs To Canada Rather Than Deal With Trump's Immigration Policies, Report Says (recode.net) 444
US companies are going to keep hiring foreign tech workers, even as the Trump administration makes doing so more difficult. For a number of US companies that means expanding their operations in Canada, where hiring foreign nationals is much easier. From a report: Demand for international workers remained high this year, according to a new Envoy Global survey of more than 400 US hiring professionals, who represent big and small US companies and have all had experience hiring foreign employees. Some 80 percent of employers expect their foreign worker headcount to either increase or stay the same in 2019, according to Envoy, which helps US companies navigate immigration laws. That tracks with US government immigration data, which shows a growing number of applicants for high-skilled tech visas, known as H-1Bs, despite stricter policies toward immigration. H-1B recipients are all backed by US companies that say they are in need of specialized labor that isn't readily available in the US -- which, in practice, includes a lot of tech workers. Major US tech companies, including Google, Facebook, and Amazon, have all been advocating for quicker and more generous high-skilled immigration policies. To do so they've increased lobbying spending on immigration.
Not new really (Score:3, Insightful)
That's been going on for some time.
Since the Bush years we often had to deal with tech seminars and conferences where they were moved out of the U.S. because many of the participants couldn't deal with U.S. Customs and Border enforcement. If you weren't a white European you were basically treated like shit and assumed to be a terrorist unless you could prove otherwise.
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US policies forbid anything that even smells of work in the US. I'm a Canadian contractor. If I went to a seminar in the USA I'd be dragged through the shit to prove that it isn't for my business and is only for personal enrichment. Easier to just say no.
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US policies forbid anything that even smells of work in the US
It's the same thing going up that way. Last place I worked had guys sent home because apparently the answered the "what kind of work are you doing in Canada?" question wrong at the border. It got to the point where our company lawyer drafted a hall pass that anybody going to Canada had to take with them.
Re:Not new really (Score:5, Interesting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU [youtube.com] Video on how PERM fraud worked, by creating fake job listings that nobody could possibly qualify for (such as demanding 20 years of .NET experience when .NET had only been around for 5 years) and "publishing" in absurdly small markets.
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Yes, and even if the salaries are within a reasonable margin the flood of additional workers stagnates wages. That is what companies want to avoid, paying tech engineers salaries on par with other fields of engineering.
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There are body shops that hire H1-Bs because they can get them cheap, but there are also plenty of companies who don't. Google, for example, pays all of its technical staff well, where they're from doesn't matter. But the H1-B crunch it's forcing a lot more international hires to be located outside of the US, where in the past they'd be brought in. I know a few who are in the US now on H1-Bs and are going to have to move because they can't get their visas renewed. These are people making $250K to $500K per
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Only the white ones? ...dude, not cool.
Re:Not new really (Score:5, Interesting)
I am well involved in organizing scientific conferences. We organize in the US most of the time but went to Canada last year. And we had WAY more attendees that could not get a visa than any other year on record. In particular north african and middle eastern attendees were the most impacted.
So it may not be true that getting through visa and emigration is going to be easier in Canada than it is in the US. Though I have only the data point of a single conference.
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What field? In my field (machine learning, computer vision) I don't think I've ever read a paper by any author affiliated with any non-Israeli Middle Eastern institution. It's as if nothing is going on there at all scientifically. There's a lot coming out of China (lots of froth, but some outstanding papers, too), a lot less from Europe, recently some good papers from Russia started appearing at a rate of 2-3 per year. Every now and then you see a paper from Israel (they seem to be predominantly focused on
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So much winning here.
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Why not both?
Re:Not new really (Score:5, Insightful)
Please don't try to put the narrative into childish terms
The President of the United States is following policies that have been put together to sound good, and to get a rise out of the conservative base, but that are not tied to effective policy development
In other words, US policy is being transformed to fit conservative bumper stickers
That has had a number of totally expected side effects, which fox new pundits regularly ignore in their own arguments, but which Americans are now faced with
1. Get rid of CAFE standards.
A favorite of 'free market' pundits for years
Net result, elimination of all car production lines as auto companies abandon them for more profitable SUV/light truck production resulting in off shoring of car production and loss of American manufacturing jobs
2. Restore the trade balance, i.e. Sell more products over seas than we purchase
Aggressive conservative pundits love any kind of war so they can flag wave, but ignore the FACT that there will be a trade imbalance as long as the US is the dominant economic power on the planet
Net result people buy even less of our stuff, which they can readily purchase for less in less developed countries. this has affected our primary export of agricultural products, loss of American farms, loss of jobs and increased costs for consumers
3. Keep out them damn immigrants
Favorite source of conservative fear-mongering supported by thinks tanks like CIS
Net result: increased costs for consumers and increased off-shoring of tech jobs (as demonstrated in this article)
So, President Trump has really done us a favor by following the ridiculous policies of his beloved fox new pundits BECAUSE it is really the only way to disprove their bat-shit crazy ideas.
It is just sad that many Americans have to suffer before they can learn they have been mislead
Nice Propaganda (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Nice lie. It's not "get rid of CAFE standards". It's "don't price the working class out of cars". Physics is a bitch, and she doesn't care about your green agenda.
2. It's not about the trade balance; it's about unfair competition and dumping. The Chinese were deliberately, and successfully, dumping to destroy the US steel industry. Jobs are the campaign slogan, but the real problem is national security. Without domestic steel production, our entire economy is completely vulnerable to the Chinese Navy. Just like China and electric vehicles: with only a trivial petroleum reserve, they realize their economy is completely vulnerable to the US Navy or Lloyds shutting down their economy.
3. Keep out the damn illegals. You keep lying and lying and lying, but the republicans are tired of the left-wing importing illegals in the hope of getting more voters. Stop lying. It's not about immigration, it's about illegals. In fact, when you narrow down to groups, it's the progressives who are being hurt the worst, and most aware of the damages from H1B abuses.
It's sad that we're going to suffer batshit insane because so many people like you are incapable of critical thought and unwilling to consider the geopolitical context or listen to your neighbors.
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1. Maybe you do not understand CAFE Standards. Please help me understand how producing more expensive and profitable SUVs (after killing CAFE) helps Americans buy cars, when the net result of CAFE was US companies produce more inexpensive (and economic) cars?
2. Simple economics, if a country has a high standard of living, then countries with lower standards of living can perform work for less. The only way to counteract that is to force the high standard of living people into a lower standard of living to c
Re: Nice Propaganda (Score:3, Insightful)
Funny you should mention "batshit insane"... you seem to believe illegal immigrants can vote, when not even Green Card holders can do that.
Better close your curtains; Hillary Clinton and the CIA might be spying on you while you post!
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Funny you should mention "batshit insane"... you seem to believe illegal immigrants can vote, when not even Green Card holders can do that.
You need not be a citizen to be counted in the census, which is used to apportion state representatives(and electoral votes). And for the last few it did not even ask about legal status, allowing democratic 'sanctuary' cities and states increase their apparent population.
Democrats also consistently vote against any sort of voter ID requirements or any other method that would help prevent non-citizens from either using the name of a citizen to have their vote counted or registering to vote under their own n
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Um, that was Reagan under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, aka Reagan Amnesty [wikipedia.org]
Funny, huh?
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In Nevada it is illegal as an adult to not have an ID on you. They will arrest you as John/Jane Doe. They can hold you up to 72 hours until they figure out who you are. If you are poor or homeless the state gives you a voucher to get an ID. For free. I support voter ID.
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"Stop lying. Stop with the Fox talking points."
Association fallacy
"Just stop. We have heard it all before."
'old news' fallacy
"The evidence, the data says otherwise."
What evidence since you couldn't be bothered to provide any?
Other countries following the US lead with steel tariffs? [theguardian.com]
2016 election results by county [publicbroadcasting.net] and the Census bureau map of hispanic population? [wikimedia.org]
More countries phasing out ICE vehicles, [climateprotection.org] thus dramatically decreasing their demand and profitability?
"This is the worst kind of decision mak
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"3. Keep out them damn immigrants"
Fair point, we shouldn't be keeping out the (legal) immigrants per say. Instead we should be penalizing companies based on their utilization of foreign workers and in that process we should count foreign subsidiaries.
We could do something like introduce the concept of a tax debit which corresponds to a credit and has to paid without regard to anything else in their taxes which raises the net cost for any and all foreign tech workers and contractors (including domestic) to a
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"3. Keep out them damn immigrants"
Fair point, we shouldn't be keeping out the (legal) immigrants per say. Instead we should be penalizing companies based on their utilization of foreign workers and in that process we should count foreign subsidiaries.
Make the CEO of any company caught hiring illegal aliens spew a year in jail for each illegal employed, and the problem will disappear pretty quickly.
cue the apologists wiling how this is not right.
Re:Not new really (Score:5, Insightful)
"Make the CEO of any company caught hiring illegal aliens spew a year in jail for each illegal employed, and the problem will disappear pretty quickly."
The real immigration problem has little to do with illegal aliens and everything to do with legally imported workers to toss Americans out of high paying tech jobs. They distract you with strawberry pickers while they displace 50k six figure jobs a year. It floods the market and stagnates wages. Whether you actually work in those fields or not this kills the economy and drives the economic depression that leads to you pointing fingers at strawberry pickers.
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If white-nationalist twits like you do not like me, then I MUST be doing something right
Funny that you lack any ability to refute my points and head straight to the ad-hominem like falling to your knees in front of a glory-hole
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People bothering to post that who are NOT being paid to do so are the stupidest of the bunch. At least the schills get a potatoe out of it.
They may be stupid, but I'll bet they can spell potato.
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And "shill".
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Many are far more severe including pretty much all of Europe
More advantages (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, the corporate tax rate in Canada is very competitive, and health care premiums are much, much lower thanks to universal single-payer health care. Plus, if your income is in USD but your salaries are in CAD, you get a nice little boost.
Re:More advantages (Score:4, Insightful)
What health premiums?
Re:More advantages (Score:5, Insightful)
As a Canadian, I can confidently state that we do, in fact, have to pay health premiums.
In many cases, they are paid for by the employer, but where they are not, they still exist.
Here in BC, a person can spend up to about $40/month on health premiums.
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I'd gladly pay double, it would still be a giant savings for me. I pay $200 every 2 weeks.
Re:More advantages (Score:4, Informative)
You're ahead of a lot of people in Canada who pay for private health insurance to cover what isn't covered by universal healthcare up here. So, drugs, dental, vision, hearing, any type of medical equipment and so on. None of that's covered, and to be covered you have to be either a senior or on disability. I know people who pay $200/mo, and only get $700 in drug coverage(70% covered) and glasses every 2-years. In bad years, that $700 doesn't last more than half a year for them.
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Aren't drug prices subsidised too? In the UK there is a fixed cost per prescription, about â10. That is usually a month's worth of drugs. You get medical equipment for free too, they will even come and modify your house to your needs if necessary.
What we pay is based in earnings and hard to calculate as it's rolled up with other social security items, but it's affordable and free for those on lower incomes.
Re:More advantages (Score:5, Interesting)
Aren't drug prices subsidised too? In the UK there is a fixed cost per prescription, about Ã10. That is usually a month's worth of drugs. You get medical equipment for free too, they will even come and modify your house to your needs if necessary.
No. Drug prices vary by province, but not by a huge amount. The differences are usually due to distribution costs or pharmacy dispensing costs. Rather instead of subsidizing it, the entire country(all provinces, territories, and federal government) buy for the entire country at a flat rate. The projected costs are based on year-on-year trends for the demand of the drugs required for the amount of users. We don't get our medical equipment free, crutches are $39 at my local hospital if you're wondering.
Most people pay with their supplemental insurance for it, and nobody comes to modify your house. You pay for that, if it's a fundamentally life changing thing like a stroke? You're better off selling your old property and buying something new. You may be covered to have someone help take care of you, but in general your family is the one who's doing all the hard work.
Give you an example from the full rundown, diagnostics, costs, everything. When my grandmother was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer, the first doctor diagnosing was a ER doctor because she coughed up blood. From there it was 11 days to see her family doctor. 39 days to see her specialist. 40 days to meet with the oncologist, 15 days to start targeted radiation therapy. The doctors and oncologist remarked at the fast turn around time and asked if she knew someone "high up the chain" who might have bumped her name for faster treatment. Most people wait double. She was a head nurse, nursing teacher, and had a bunch of other certifications so maybe someone did, but if they did - we didn't know about it.
For her treatment, we drove 51km one-way. Luckily her residence was "far enough away" that the VON(Victorian Order of Nurses - The VON is a not-for-profit care program, and is mainly funded by donations) which operated a hospice, and took patients to the treatment center would take her on. After that treatment, she was cut loose by the system until her care became so bad that family could no longer take care of her. That was around 9 months of pure hell with degrading health, memory, and various bouts of cancer and drug induced dementia of me taking care of her because both my dad and uncle worked between 40 and 50hrs/week and had no room in their houses, or because it wasn't very good to have a person who couldn't keep their balance walk up or downstairs for a bathroom. Her planning a head, before that she put herself on the list for a nursing home. The average wait time is 4 years, luckily or unluckily someone died and because she was already in the "last 6mo of estimated life" they got her in. She was in there for 3 weeks before she took an even harder turn. The hospital had no room for long term care for the last 6mo. Rather it was the VON again, who had space in a end-of-life hospice care facility. That was the last 27 days of her life.
The state of care for end-of-life is pretty shit. It's shit enough that the government offers "escape" programs for people where a nurse comes in for a couple of days so you can bug the hell out, and try not to have a complete breakdown.
What we pay is based in earnings and hard to calculate as it's rolled up with other social security items, but it's affordable and free for those on lower incomes.
You pay pretty much for everything unless you're old age or on disability here. What is considered "critical care" is mostly covered, but there's plenty of people who go financially broke from the secondary costs of healthcare. And the 'safety net' is really your family.
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"Here in BC, a person can spend up to about $40/month on health premiums."
Most Americans would wet their pants to only pay $40/month for health premiums.
Re:More advantages (Score:4, Insightful)
Most Americans would wet their pants to only pay $40/month for health premiums.
BC is an odd province out. If you lived in Alberta, traveling 6hrs to see a specialist or being flown out to a major city is the norm for any type of critical care. In Ontario, traveling 2-5hrs for a specialist is common. $40 sounds great to even those of us in Ontario, especially since most people spend $200-400/per-person in private health insurance to cover drugs alone. That's on top of the money that's already being paid for it via taxes. Figure in Ontario you're blowing around 50% of your income on taxes right out of the gate. And you sure don't see much for it.
But the real question is, how many Americans are willing to wait 2yrs for cataract surgery? Or 4 months to start cancer treatment? Cause those aren't outside a norm in Ontario either.
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But the real question is, how many Americans are willing to wait 2yrs for cataract surgery? Or 4 months to start cancer treatment? Cause those aren't outside a norm in Ontario either.
People in the states already have excessive waits. We have death panels also, they are insurance companies that deny coverage. Plus, don't complain about medication when it's about double or more for the same meds and expensive insurance still has large deductibles and pays only a portion of the cost. It's sad when people have to go to Canada and Mexico for medications and treatments because in many cases paying directly is cheaper than in the states with coverage.
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There will always be the need for some sort of system in place to allocate limited health care resources; demand always outstrips supply. In the US, the queue of first to last is determined by who has the most money, as opposed to who has the greatest need. Up to you to debate which is the better approach.
Like it or not, if you were told to wait 4 months to start cancer treatment, it is because you d
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Yet people have no problem paying it. Something must be working.
People don't have a problem paying it? Strange. I must have missed the last few years when the government banned wintertime electrical disconnection for fear of people freezing to death. Or the numerous charities, food banks, and organizations like the sally ann are being used or broke at not a level seen since 1979-1980. ~10 years ago during the housing crash, food banks were at roughly 1988 levels of use. It was bad, it's gotten worse especially in the last 3 years that wages have stayed flat while t
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That is extremely misleading. There is a very drastic difference between what a worker pays for health care and what they pay for health insurance and you are conflating the two. The Canadian is paying the bottom line figure with no bill when they receive care.
The health insurance $4000/yr will get you right now usually carries a several thousand dollar deductible, has a whole slew of exclusions, and generally only pays at 80-90% on what is covered. Which would put the real costs paid per year in the US at
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As a Canadian, I can confidently state that we do, in fact, have to pay health premiums.
In many cases, they are paid for by the employer, but where they are not, they still exist.
Here in BC, a person can spend up to about $40/month on health premiums.
Back in my day it was $36. Outrageous how much health care increases are! 10 percent increase ... that could buy you a double double!
Is it still $5 for an overnight hospital stay?
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For now... honestly, I'm not holding out much optimism that will last more than 5 or so years.
Don't get me wrong though... I'd love to be proved wrong here. I'm just saying what I think will happen.
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Do businesses cover those premiums for employees?
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Depends on the employer. If you have a full time job that doesn't pay very much, then you might be eligible for free coverage... but you still have to apply for it, and you have to regularly reapply.
The premiums are based on a person's net income and in my view are not cost prohibitive for a person that is earning those amounts, even if their employer doesn't cover them.
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Canada's corporate tax rate is competitive to US companies because you can pay in USD. Which right now slashes 30% off your costs 1CAD=0.71USD right now. But that didn't really help here in Ontario. Now the question is why? Because electricity is expensive, for businesses you're paying around 4x the rate of Michigan or New York. If you were manufacturing the previous government implemented tax rates that were punitive to anything but the service industry, enough so that companies with massive data cent
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Funny, read a story how Canada can't keep tech employees since they get payed a lot less than US employees. I hope the Canadian Tech workers are keeping track of the numbers in the article. This will NOT make it better for Canadian employees, it will drive down wages even more.
It always looks great to economists and investors, but not for employees.
US is making the correct move, Canada is just the new landing spot. Enjoy!
Thanks Obama! (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's hip & trendy to blame Trump for everything under the sun, these movements have been happening for longer than he has been in office. Ex: https://www.geekwire.com/2016/trudeau-speak-opening-microsoft-vancouver-facility/
So that seems to be good news for U.S. workers... (Score:4, Informative)
Seems like, if companies have a lot of demand for workers, and it's harder to reign in foreign workers, that it's good news for legal U.S. workers already here...
Some things may be moving to Canada but even the summary sure made it look as if the tech market in the U.S. was still growing also. Which you'd honestly expect.
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I'm more than happy to let Canada win the race to the bottom. The "disaster" of big west coast tech employers having to *gasp* hire US citizens hasn't kept them from expanding.
When I was at Amazon, it was amazing how fast the story on my team switched from "we'd be happy to hire US citizens, we just can't find qualified people" to "we hired 3 US citizens this quarter, no problem" when we needed 3 people who could apply for top secret clearance. Amazing coincidence, really, how those previously non-existen
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Canadians have been getting pissed off over this the last few years under Trudeau because it's expanded. A company is more likely to claim that they can't find anyone to work a PT job in a fast food joint and then hire a TFW(temporary foreign worker) to cover it, but it hasn't stopped companies that hire skilled trades from pulling the same stuff, or banks doing the same. The problem is that while the Trudeau government likes to claim "unemployment historic lows!" and all the rest, wages have entered a st
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Because nothing was ever bad or getting worse under the right wing party? Because the PM personally sets wage policy for fry cooks?
I didn't know that Harper was Trudeau Sr., who implemented wage and price controls. And then experienced massive nationwide wildcat strikes. FYI, provinces are responsible for hourly wages these days, and it was Wynne(Ontario Liberals), who tried to set the wage policy for fry cooks. That was after her brilliant plan to jump the min.wage from 12/hr to 15/hr in 2 years.
Shit, you can blame Trudeau for winter being cold and summer being hot, space being dark and electrons repelling each other by that standard.
I can blame Trudeau's plan to implement a carbon tax, and bankrupting people over it. But what do I know? Because the same architect who
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No one cares about your time working in the warehouse fatboy.
I can guarantee you I'd weigh a lot less if I had worked at the warehouse!
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You think Amazon only sells consumer goods. That's sort of cute. Uninformed, but sort of cute.
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Not from where I'm sitting. We hire all the Americans we can find, but we just can't find enough who can meet our requirements. We pay very well, have great benefits, etc. Doesn't matter. It's not a problem of finding people willing to work, it's a problem of finding people who can do the job. The only way to get enough good people is to hire globally. If that means more teams have to be based outside of the US, so be it.
If the process continues for long enough that our teams are primarily based outside o
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"When a foreign worker is hired and moves to the US, they're gonna be spending their pay check in the US to buy food, clothes, services, etc."
Minimally. The countries which export these workers run investment programs to give better returns from home. Meaning a huge chunk of their salaries get funneled directly out the US. And then of course there are the workers who send money back to their families. We really shouldn't allow visa workers either option.
Healthcare too (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, if this really is just H1-Bs shifting to Canada I find it really hard to care. I couldn't have gotten those jobs anyway and to be blunt I see very, very little of the benefits from immigration here in America. Without robust set of programs to take advantage of those economic wealth generated it's all just money going to the top. Even small businesses can be hurt since they're left to compete with companies that can hire engineers for less money (though it's debatable whether wage depression brought on by the influx of cheap labor offsets that).
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Doesn't apply to TFW's just a heads up. [www.cbc.ca] And if a company can lie it's way through to get a TFW, you can bet your ass that they will. [afl.org] The best way to think of the TFW program is to think H1B's on steroids. Instead of just applying to a particular sector, or job area. A company can hire a TFW for anything, min wage to highly skilled. Out in Alberta during the big oil rush, at least one company laid off of hundreds of skilled trades(welders, mechanics, pipe fitters, etc) and then hired TFW's as replace
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I don't think Canada messes around with a "worker in purgatory" program like H1-B (where, if you don't follow the employer's wishes, you get let go, and have to return to your home country since it is hard to get another employer to sponsor you on short notice). Canada just allows more skilled workers to become legal immigrants right away.
That is what the US should be doing. When the immigrants get a green card, they then lack restrictions which allow them to be exploited. Allowing them to participate in th
I don't think it's about exploiting them anymore (Score:2)
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So, you live in California, New York, IL?
The rest of the country got a tax cut, actually you did as well, what paid for the tax cut is no longer allowing your city/state to hijack income tax dollars. Since your state/city still hasn't fixed their taxes to no longer attempt to hijack income tax from the feds you should take the issue up with them. They'll just have to cut costs/programs or increase sales/gross receipt taxes instead of pilfering income taxes.
Really that is the best thing. People in New York s
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Funny....My taxes went down due to the tax cuts, and I"m firmly middle class.
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Does that mean you live in one of those HIGH state tax states?
If so, then yes, since you cannot write off state taxes, that likely hits you, BUT , you can address this by getting your elected state legislators to lower the damned overly high state taxes.
I would suggest, maybe you look into incorporating yourself for
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Are you saying over the entire year, including withholding, you paid more federal taxes this year than last...OR, are you saying that due to less being withheld over the year, you had to pay in $400 more than last year at EOY?
There's a big difference....you're tax debt to the Feds should be lower for the fiscal 2018 year, but you may be paying a bit more at EOY due to less tax
is it really easier to set up operations (Score:4, Insightful)
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Title says one thing, summary says another (Score:5, Informative)
The title implies that tech companies are not dealing with the immigration policies. The summary says that they are dealing with them, and dealing with them so well that they are hiring equal or greater numbers of foreign workers. Which is it?
Let's look at the article and see:
“Due to a shortage of green cards for workers, many employees find themselves stuck in an immigration process lasting more than a decade. These employees must repeatedly renew their temporary work visas..."
That problem has existed for >20 years. Much of the article reads the same way:
...there aren’t enough skilled Americans...
...US companies are hiring outside the US...
Most of this could have been written in 1995 and nothing would sound different.
But this is slightly different:
Recent immigration data shows the US is issuing fewer total visas to these types of workers than in previous years. This is a result of an executive order Trump issued...
This quote links to an article showing that only 75% of H-1B visa applications are being accepted. But that conflicts with the statement
Some GOOD news:
Take a look at the chart in the article showing which companies are getting their Visa's rejected. Microsoft, Amazon, Google -- 99% acceptance. Tata consulting: 78%. Accenture: 69%. Good riddance! Companies like Tata and Accenture are the real abusers of H1-B. These firms just hire as many H1-B applicants as they possibly can, and then find jobs for them later by promising other companies they can do the same job for less, then offshoring the work later. That's a garbage business model and if that's the only companies having trouble than good riddance!
not my experience (Score:5, Interesting)
As a Canadian working many years as a software developer, while I'm sure examples can be found where this is happening, 99% of the work is still in the U.S. And U.S. employers, as much as they like to complain they cannot find enough developers, are reluctant if not outright 100% against hiring people working in Canada, even with the CAD USD difference.
Just try and convince a hiring manager that you'll get the work done from Canada while the company is U.S. based! I've tried several hundreds of times over the last few decades.
Unless you're willing to move down to the U.S. and be sitting in an office chair at their location 9-5 M-F, you'll never get a call back from HR or the hiring manager.
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But if you move down here, the housing is cheaper than Vancouver and you get paid more in USD, so it's win win for Canadians working in the US.
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But if you move down here, the housing is cheaper than Vancouver [...]
Canada != Vancouver
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I thought we were talking about tech outsourcing? It usually does mean that. Some of my old friends from BC teach at college there in IT and gaming.
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I know Americans are notoriously bad at geography, but take a look at a map and find Vancouver. You'll find that Canada is much larger than 1 medium-sized city. (Vancouver itself is only 600K people while Vancouver + lower mainland is 2.7 million.)
And the cost of housing is through the roof, while the tech salaries are the lowest of all the large Canadian cities. Unless you are born there and have ties that keep you there, the best thing you can do for your tech career is to move somewhere else. Calgary
Corporations will do anything to avoid paying... (Score:2)
the salaries they have to pay to have the best.
So they can't import cheap ass Indians by the gross anymore so they will go to Canada where they can...
Hey! We're The Foreign Nationals Now (Score:3)
We can then get H1B's and abuse the system.
[John]
Mexico seems like it would be cheaper (Score:2)
If they are presumably moving people from India, I would think they could plop them down in Mexico and it would be a lot cheaper. They could...
pay them less that in US or Canada but more than India
have them in the same time zone
only be a few hours or less away by air
minimal employment laws compared to US/Canada
dangle US employment
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If they get out of line, you can hire cartel to make an example of one!
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Also healthcare benefits.
I used to work with an Indian visa worker. He could hardly believe US healthcare expenses. Even with health insurance he could barely afford the deductibles and the stuff the insurance would not pay for.
Healthcare in Mexico is much more affordable.
Top quality Indian talen is not emigrating anymore (Score:5, Insightful)
Then the H1B to green card transition became hard, the waiting lists got longer, and USA was losing its charm for the elite graduates. At the same time, Indian economy boomed, these grads were getting great career prospects back at home. The stream of resumes with IIT BTech has dwindled to nearly nothing.
Let Canada keep them. When USCompanies realize most of them are duds, it will be Canada's problem, bot ours.
H-1B: Theory vs. Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
Theory: "We want the very best developers and engineers from around the world to supercharge the American economy!"
Reality: "Hey, my cousin Sanjay knows Sharepoint. Let's write the job rec so narrowly tailored that we can get him into the country on an H-1B."
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This is how it used to be. (Score:2)
Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, Canada was consider the prime outsourcer for American white collar work. Lots of benefits to this such such as having the same time zone or close to it, cultural similarities, and a lack of a language barrier (eh?).
And honestly, I'm ok with that. I'd like to support countries that are similar in values, culture, politics, and legal systems. Outsourcing work to the lowest bidders ends up supporting at best cronyism and bribery. And at worst totalitarian regimes.
It's called Consequences (Score:2)
The data must flow.
Who'd thunk it? (Score:2)
Gee, if only there were a field of study which tried to understand how people respond to incentives. If only there were only a way to predict if you make something more difficult, you'll get less of it. And that if you make something harder, organizations will use the easiest possible answer (which might not be the outcome you were hoping for).
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You realize that when he said that, the top income tax bracket was a 91% tax. Now it's ~35%. The right solution is raising income taxes on the ultra rich (10M income per year?) to 50% or more, and raising capital gains tax to the same amount to make it so the rich have to give back to the economy rather than buying more private jets.
Re:Wanna Fix It? (Score:5, Interesting)
the rich consume like hell
No, they really don't. The poor consume 100% of their income. That's a big part of why we call them "poor".
The rich consume far less than 100% of their income.
The absolute value of their consumption is higher, but absolute value does not tell you anything about the effect your taxes have on that taxpayer. The percent of their income subject to your taxes does.
All of a poor person's income is subject to your tax, because they're spending all of their paycheck on goods and services. Only a portion of a rich person's income is subject to your tax, because they're not spending all of their "paycheck" on goods and services.
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The way to raise taxes on the rich is to pass the consumption tax, because... the rich consume like hell, and consumption taxes are harder to evade, you have to go beyond simply 1 person lying about their income, to 2 people, the buyer and the seller, both putting themselves at risk for prison on a conspiracy charge, to avoid a consumption tax. The seller, BTW, gets nothing out of such a scheme except that risk of prison.
That's not true. The problem with giving money to rich people is that they don't need it for their daily lives. They already have all the stuff they want. And when they are making 10x, 100x or whatever absurd amount more than the median income, they don't spent it all if they are currently making it. Instead it goes into index funds, bonds, and (often foreign) luxury goods, basically asset bubbles. When you give money to the middle class they usually buy electronics and cars (both exporting to foreign
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Rich people invest what they don't spend and generate economic activity.
Scrooge McDuck style money bin hoarders
I see you missed basic economics in school (probably one of those liberal arts places). Rich people don't hide piles of cash in a vault. They invest it in their own businesses or loan it to people who need it.
And if you DO decide to go after all those evil 'wealthy' investors, keep this in mind: The largest and wealthiest single class of investor in this country are pension funds. So you'll be skimming your 50% off of the retirements o
Re:Wanna Fix It? (Score:5, Interesting)
In 1963, with the income taxes only 50 years old at the time, JFK said, "“The largest single barrier to full employment of our manpower and resources and to a higher rate of economic growth is the unrealistically heavy drag of federal income taxes on private purchasing power, initiative and incentive.” John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963 " He was right.
[Citation Required]
'Cause JFK did slash income taxes.....and there was not a corresponding boom of economic activity.
If you're going to cite his statement, you also need to include the history of what happened when people followed his plan. And it did not have the effect JFK claimed it would.
he little thing about repealing the corporate income tax would have those companies, and all the rest of the companies on the planet at least WANTING to move their operations to the USA where they could operate without having their profits stolen by the gov't.
Only if you ignore that they're spending more money to buy goods and services to pay your consumption tax.
No taxes on the used car.
Your plan does not repeal property taxes. Also, car dealers are offering a service, thus putting them under your consumption tax.
No taxes on the used (existing) house, only taxes if you build a new house
Your plan does not repeal property taxes. Also, there are currently no taxes paid when you buy a house, new or "used" (there are various recording fees). However you did just massively jack up the price of all of the components of the house, massively driving up home prices.
No taxes on the money you make and use for savings
Only if your savings is under your mattress. If you invest your savings, guess what? You're using a service and the tax man cometh.
tuition
....isn't taxed today.
money used to pay your state taxes, car license fees
Were deductible until the Republicans decided to raise individual income taxes to offset a fraction of their corporate tax cut.
because of the lack of at least the Federal gov't tromping thru the door to steal a portion of the business' profits each year.
Instead, the Federal government would tromp through the door to raise the cost of all the goods and services those companies buy.
Money's fungible, yo. Tax income or tax consumption, you're still taking money from the business.
Re: Wanna Fix It? (Score:2)
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Consumption taxes would stagnate the commercial sector.
Claims the commercial sector, which doesn't want to be taxed.
Tax all wealth, the more the better.
Wealth can move beyond tax jurisdictions pretty easily. Consumption can not. Tax what is difficult to hide.
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Try and balance the budget. Between SS / Medicare, and DoD, there's precious little left over to run the rest of the country.
SS is taxes collected over a lifetime of working. It's invested in treasury bonds which have returns that usually don't even outpace inflation.
Medicare isn't even allowed to negotiate drug prices.
DoD spends about what the rest of the world does, combined.
There is no balancing the budget. Start with reducing corruption and legalized bribery in the form of superpacs and "foundations" run by politicians, then we might get reasonable legislation to reduce overhead. Then we can tackle tax reform.
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Because of legal restrictions on the movement of data outside of the US, I now have some additional roles to fill, and my position is more secure than it would be otherwise. The offshore team cannot yet replace me, after all...
While you were thinking up clever fixes, these were continuing to be implemented, as they have been, for decades.
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No thanks. If I want to do my banking or other business with a foreign institution, that's my business. We are approaching an economic Iron Curtain as it is.
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I wonder how many are "native" Canadians? I worked with several Russian H1B holders (and Green card) who first went to Toronto, Canada waiting for permanent work in the USA. They then worked as contractors on jobs or entered the lottery, or filed for H1B after successful contract work.
But my last company hired a whole batch of graduates from a tech school in NS and gave them all H1B. The whole class. It was part of a special program, the school helped cross train them in specific tech and we hired the
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An alternative explanation is that they're perfectly legal but they get sick of hearing frothing fat fuckers like you and they decide it's not worth the hassle.
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in a few shitty companies outsourcing.
Hey Anonymous Coward, here in Vancouver, the large offices of "a few shitty companies outsourcing" include Amazon, Microsoft, SalesForce, Slack and Electronic Arts.
https://www.straight.com/files... [straight.com]
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Those are big and fairly famous. But it doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't shitty, though.