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United States Businesses China The Almighty Buck Technology

China Surveillance Tycoons Lose Billions From Threat of US Sanctions (bloomberg.com) 125

Posted by BeauHD from the cause-and-effect dept.
schwit1 shares a report from Bloomberg: The billionaires behind Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology Co. and Zhejiang Dahua Technology Co. have watched their combined fortunes sink by more than $8 billion since March 2018 as shares of both companies sank on speculation of potential U.S. sanctions. The losses deepened on Wednesday after reports that Donald Trumps administration is considering blacklisting the surveillance giants, in part because of their alleged role in human rights violations.

Hikvision Vice Chairman Gong Hongjia, whose fortune peaked at $13 billion in November 2017, is now worth about $6 billion after the stock fell as much as 10% on Wednesday, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. Dahua Chairman Fu Liquans net worth has dropped to $1.9 billion from $4.3 billion in March 2018. Hopefully the same happens to U.S. surveillance tycoons.
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China Surveillance Tycoons Lose Billions From Threat of US Sanctions More

China Surveillance Tycoons Lose Billions From Threat of US Sanctions

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  • It's all just on paper? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward

    It sounds like we're talking about "wealth" just on paper here. It's not a real loss, as it wasn't a real gain on the first place. It was just a fluctuating accounting value, not something tangible. It may not even have been possible to realize the full value. Selling shares would increase the supply, thus decreasing the share price for subsequent share sales.

    • Re:It's all just on paper? (Score:5, Informative)

      by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:14AM (#58641188)
      It is paper wealth. Also, "surveillance tycoons" is presumably part of the ongoing anti-China propaganda, they make security cameras, and in fact are the #1 and #2 security camera makers in the world. The US relies extensively on Hikvision and Dahua security products, so who knows what they're going to do if they ban them. Possibly switch to dubious third-party devices made in some back alley in Shenzhen.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by rot26 ( 240034 )
        What makes it propganda? Do you have some evidence that it's untrue?

      • Re:It's all just on paper? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by timholman ( 71886 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:26AM (#58641252)

        The US relies extensively on Hikvision and Dahua security products

        Just about everyone in the security camera business relies on Dahua or Hikvision to supply optics or electronics. Companies such as Amcrest and Lorex use rebranded Dahua cameras and components throughout their product lines. If not from one of those two companies, then from some other Chinese manufacturer. That also includes equipment sold by Ring, Nest, and Wyze.

        Yes, the government could afford to pay the much higher costs for domestically manufactured security cameras, but the average consumer wouldn't be able to afford them. The result would be very undesirable; surveillance asymmetry between the government and its citizens. They would be able to watch us, but we'd have no way of watching them.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
          Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Every brand you mentioned there are replicated garbage. There are honestly few camera makers which are secure. If ypunwant secure you go with US or isralie made cameras. Sure they're not as cheap but they are secure. Also have you seen the night time quality of the chineese garbage? Fucking horrid. Check it oit sometime.

          • If ypunwant secure you go with US or isralie made cameras. Sure they're not as cheap but they are secure.

            A couple of serious questions:

            1) How do you know they're secure? I've been researching some home security cams and I'm curious about this.

            2) Any brand names you'd recommend? I know of plenty to stay away from, but which brands and/or models would you recommend?

            • I said the 2 I personally would trust above or below, but in this thread. And I've heard the ubiquity ones are alright but have never played with any. And some of the basic tests are "Does FW upgrade reset factory password." -- probably the biggest there. Whether SSL is current "secure" or depreciated. You know the normal server security tests. Also nice to see if they will phone home after you turn NAT services off. I still suggest buying good cameras and setting your own NVR up if you are on this site you

        • They would be able to watch us, but we'd have no way of watching them.

          I'm building my own open source DVR/home camera system*, but no cameras in the living areas.

          If do they manage to get a backdoor into my system and want to look at the weeds in my side yard or the inside of a darkened garden shed, it's not life and death to me.

          (Yes, of course I'd prefer they didn't but I'm willing to take the risk for what I get out of it.)

          *Zoneminder and cameras that use the OpenIPCamera firmware (https://github.com/openipcamera)

      • Or start making them in America (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:34AM (#58641300)

        There are now two, and maybe even three at this point, generations of Americans who don't seem to realize that America used to produce much of its own goods.

        Members of these generations, apparently including you, just can't seem to comprehend that American individuals and American companies could manufacture goods in America, and then sell them to other American individuals and American businesses in America. You seem to think that all manufactured goods have to come from across an ocean.

        Equipment like this could be made in America. It might not be as cheap as similar equipment imported from somewhere with lower manufacturing costs due to lax regulation, but it could still be available.

        Tariffs and similar economic tools can be used to deal with differing employment, environmental, and other standards between jurisdictions. If a regulation would apply to the manufacturing of a good made in America, it's reasonable to ensure that equivalent regulation applies to goods manufactured elsewhere and imported into America. If such regulation isn't applied externally, at least tariffs help bring some normalization to the situation, preventing external manufacturers from benefitting from their reduced standards.

        It's unfortunate that many Americans have trouble comprehending that America could manufacture goods, and could do so without compromising the quality of the goods or the environment.

        • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          lol and what pay these "americans" more than a few cents and hour and give them healthcare and shit
          lol get out im not paying another 500$ for my iphone camera it already costs more than my car
          im entitled to these devices and i dont care if slaves make them as long as i can be a dog or an angel on insta

        • Re:Or start making them in America (Score:4, Insightful)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @09:04AM (#58641480) Homepage Journal

          Equipment like this could be made in America.

          Yes, but only by robots.

          Forget about cheap CCTV cameras. There is too much price pressure, unless you plan to also ban imports from every other country with lower labour costs. Instead, concentrate on making stuff that is high end or more difficult to make, where you can compete on quality and on service/support.

          You can't turn the tide back, but it will carry you far if you go with it.

          • Equipment like this could be made in America.

            Yes, but only by robots.

            Let's not conflate the terk-er-jerbs issue with the security issue.

            Forget about cheap CCTV cameras. There is too much price pressure, unless you plan to also ban imports from every other country with lower labour costs.

            Maybe that's a good plan. Or, instead of banning anything, we should place tariffs on goods imported from places where workers are mistreated, or paid less than a local living wage.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              Or, instead of banning anything, we should place tariffs on goods imported from places where workers are mistreated, or paid less than a local living wage.

              Or enjoy low priced, high tech goods, help those workers improve their quality of life, and concentrate on making even more high end stuff yourself.

              • Guess you don't care about your fellow citizens first. There are plenty of people that would like a manufacturing job. Even if most of the manufacturing was done via automation, there would still be manual jobs required.

                But hey, fuck those manual jobs that citizens could use. Let's take care of the rest of the world first.

                Higher price? Unless the buyers have attitudes like yours. I am sure they would understand the price increase is due to domestic workers. You know, their fellow citizens.

          • Forget about cheap CCTV cameras. There is too much price pressure, unless you plan to also ban imports from every other country with lower labour costs.

            Yup.

            When you can buy something like a Foscam R2 or an Amcrest 841 for about $50, there's no way US manufacturers will be able to meet or beat that. Each of those models delivers a lot of bang for the buck; I don't see any way in hell that a US manufacturer could produce comparable equipment for a similar price. I don't know if they could do it at double the price even with robotic assembly lines.

            The Wyze V2 cams are $14 on eBay and they're actually a hell of a nice little camera. It's a US company, but all

            • If we imported the raw materials and built the same stuff here, we would be providing jobs to people here. That would increase our tax base and put more money into more consumers' pockets. With more money being circulated in the national/region/local economy, you will see growth.

              Right now, we have dirt cheap products because China doesn't pay their workers crap and the work environments are terrible.

              We should want things to be made as local as possible. You want your neighbors to have jobs. They will spend

              • The status quo is USA buying cheap products made by slaves in China. Do you really feel that's okay?

                Do you feel that's okay?

                You must, because you're buying products from China. Why do you support slave labor?

        • Sure, but you also have to consider raw materials. I don't believe there are any rare earth mining operations in the US at this point that produce the raw materials necessary for making most of this type of electronic equipment. While we could certainly make and assemble them here, most of the materials necessary would have to come from... guess where... China! China right know mines somewhere in the 90s percent of all rare earth material used in manufacturing, around the world, not just for the US. While t

          • Don't you want your tech waste to be properly cleaned up? Letting the Chinese destroy the environment so they can sell us crap doesn't sound great for either country.

            We could buy raw materials from China and produce things here. It does make more sense to produce stuff over there, but unless they are willing to adopt western safety and wage standards we shouldn't be so indulgent. Really no different then indulging the middle eastern kingdoms for their oil despite the fact they have slaves and treat their wo

        • That's not the job of America, though. The job of America is to bring wealth to the rest of the world. Make Asia rich, make South America rich, conquer the Middle East for its resources, and pour money into other countries. That the American working class is harmed is just a neat side benefit. They're unreliable voters, as the 2016 election proved.

        • Members of these generations, apparently including you, just can't seem to comprehend that American individuals and American companies could manufacture goods in America, and then sell them to other American individuals and American businesses in America. You seem to think that all manufactured goods have to come from across an ocean.

          We could, but... there aren't infinite Americans.

          Let's say we can make 1 airplane or, with the same invested resources (i.e. labor-hours), 1,000 cars. China can also make 1 airplane or, with the same invested resources, 100 cars. Together, with some resources, we make 2 airplanes and 1,100 cars.

          Okay, move all the Americans off the airplane factory line and have them make cars. China makes the airplanes. Now we have 2,000 cars made in America, 2 airplanes made in China, and we trade. That's 900 more

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by HiThere ( 15173 )

          The problem is that making factories isn't quick or cheap. And the skills required to make factories have migrated off-shore, so they'd need to be relearned, which isn't quick or cheap.

          The recommendation that the factories be rebuilt is a good one, but don't expect the jobs to come back. The next generation of factories will be highly automated, and provide only a few, very high tech, but few, on-going jobs. And some low-paid service contractors to do things like empty the garbage...but not many of those

        • My first reaction to Chinese tariffs was the same. Why not Made In The USA? What happened to the glory days of American Manufacturing? When we led the world and competed against the German machine during WWII? We were the best and the brightest. Bring back our jobs, bring back the American dream - sounds simple right?!

          Unfortunately, the globalists slowly but irreversibly sold us out; the gold standard has been abolished in favor of trade agreements and floating currency. Americans are said to be "a

      • Their cameras are garbage though compared to american brands.

        Source: I install and configure them...

        • Can you name some American brands that work well and are familiar with? Serious question, I'm in the market for some cameras and would prefer American product.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by Highdude702 ( 4456913 )

            Unfortunately i cant off the top of my head, im currently working with provision-isr cameras which have great quality and arent that outrageously priced. Everyone turned to the chineese knock offs about 4 years ago so i havent got to play with many decent ones lately.. provision-isr is israile and are accredited as secure by i believe DoD, i just checked one of my suppliers pages for the brand i fell in love with, ICrealtime. They are outnof florida and iirc they manufacture domestically, as i said i havent

    • Re:It's all just on paper? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Shark ( 78448 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:27AM (#58641268)

      I suspect a part of that 'loss' is the cushion of money they're sneaking to places like Vancouver [scmp.com]. China is clamping down pretty hard on asset transfers, which is what makes things like crypto currencies and even jewlry rather popular with its well-to-do. Expect a lot of them to plan a one-way 'business trip' when the going gets a bit too tough in communist utopia.

    • Agree, the stock market is not the true definer of wealth. There are solid reasons why the nominal valuations of securities in total should be much higher than the collective economic output of the companies involved. But that isn't meant to be considered real wealth. If this guy went out and tried to sell his $16 billion one day, he would wind up getting far far less than that total in real currency. Which is how it should be. Neither of these tycoons lost anything, at best you might say the companies lost

    • "It's not a real loss"

      Tell that to all the people whose 401k drop in bad times.

      I'm just thinking, if I were Trump and(via policy) made an individual lose $7B in perceived wealth, I'd be very nervous for myself and my family forever. People that have that kind of money and lose that kind of money do not take it well. And that's just the big fish that got burned. You know there are thousands of underlings that have also not fared well due to this.

  • Don't forget EU (Score:3)

    by Shaitan ( 22585 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:09AM (#58641156)

    Their surveillance tycoons need to lose wealth too!

    I'm not exactly crying for the guy who is now worth a mere $6 billion.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • I am glad you are not going after the US survceillance tycoons. Because that would be bad. Mmmkay?

        We're talking about manufacture here. Are you talking about manufacture? No. I think you're grinding that idiotic Bolshevik axe of NSA and other TLA surveillance.

        Now, back to brass tacks: Who are our surveillance manufacturing tycoons? I can't think of any, because China is the king of the cheap camera, which other peeps re-brand and integrate into their "product"

        So again, name me some American surveillance manufacturing tycoons. Go ahead, I'll wait.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Shaitan ( 22585 )

        TFS mentions both US and China already. I mentioned only the EU because it was the only one left out.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      And Israel. For some reason many of the worst privacy-violators are based there. Something to do with the legal jurisdiction perhaps.

      • I figure it has to do with the close relationship with the USA. Much of our mutual involvement is military in nature, some of which has to do with R&D. Intel has long been a military supplier, and they have a big facility in Israel as well. Development can be done there where it's far from the eyes of the American taxpayer (or congresscritter) but then it can be be brought back here without problems with ITAR.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Shaitan ( 22585 )

          All a bunch of evil bastards. On the bright side I hope these tariffs last a minute. First I'm making a killing with the uncertainly they are causing in the markets. Turmoil = opportunity. The longer they last the more of our trade and labor ships to Mexico on the heels of freshly renegotiated deals. That is good for the people of Mexico and reduces the border and immigration concerns in a more healthy way. If enough of our trade interests shift there we may well end up going in and busting up the cartels a

  • Those poor people (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I'm starting a Patreon campaign for them so they can continue to afford their multiple superyachts and mansions. Who's with me?

    All snark aside, how screwed up is our world that someone can lose $6B and still have more money than whole countries worth of people will earn in their entire lifetimes?

  • I mean it's not like they're going hungry now. Sure, 1 billion is the bare minimum to survive these days but... oh wait....

    Also they only lose the money if they sell now. If they just wait until it all blows over then nothing will be lost at all.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • If their companies lost money, why? Did they lose business?

        If they lost business, how many workers do they have that they no longer need? Oh sure you can manufacture like 10,000 per worker...and you have 100,000,000 fewer units demanded... so workers are now idle and getting paid. The price per unit has to go up--no, wait, just fire those workers. We can't fire 10,001 workers because then we wouldn't be able to make enough units to meet customer demand (we'd have to pay someone overtime...).

        Oh, and

  • GoFuckMe (Score:5, Funny)

    by AndyKron ( 937105 ) on Thursday May 23, 2019 @08:34AM (#58641298)
    Only worth six billion dollars now. Damn. Should we start a GoFundMe campaign for that poor fellow?

    • You are a fucking moron.

      China is coming for us whether you roll over like a little bitch or not.

      China is making it clear that if we do not let them control the economy their way, they will do their best to make everyone suffer.
      China is currently way over inflating their value and currencies. They are no where near as strong as they make everyone believe. They have to play hardball or the thin veneer that is their farce will come down hard. Right now, I don't even think War with China is even avoidable...

      • I love you too :*

    • Apparently you haven’t noticed, but his “get tough on China” bit seems to have pretty broad support from both sides of the aisle.

      It may very well be the *only* action of his to enjoy such support...

  • Damn! And I thought I would make my fortune in Dental Floss.

  • After all, they're losing that money for sharing their voyeurism with the wrong spies.

  • Oh dear, now I'm only worth $6 billion? How will I be able to buy shoes for my poor starving children?

    Oh, wait- I'll just buy them the whole shoe factory.

    Whew- I was worried there for a moment!

  • Good (Score:2)

    by MrKaos ( 858439 )

    Really good.

  • Could this be the end of the Chinasaurus.

    wait for it...

  • ``Hopefully the same happens to U.S. surveillance tycoons.

    You mean like the folks running Facebook, Google, etc.?

  • Oh NO! China will be able to tell which of our people we are already spying on, maybe, if every security company that uses their stuff sucks at their job and hasn't spotted it calling home or being able to be contacted trivially.

  • It isn't about china or their human right violation. If it was, Saudi Arabia would be on the top of the target for repeated terrible violation. But it isn't , the US is schumy with S.A., now the issue is that the US thought china was backward technologically and simply slept on their ears. It turns out that in spite of all the copy outcry (cry me a river what do you think the US did in the 19th?), part of china is indeed innovating and doing a better product than the US. e.g. the kerkuffle against huwai is
  • is how they claimed not to know how their technology is being used. As if they weren't part-owned by the Chinese Government that's using it to track everyone.

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