Norway Island Wants To Be World's First Time-Free Zone (cnn.com) 164
Sommaroy, an island in northern Norway that means "Summer Island," wants to become the world's first time-free zone. CNN reports: On this island in West Tromso, north of the Arctic Circle, the sun doesn't set from May 18 right through to July 26, a full 69 days. The locals, having endured the long polar night from November to January, when the sun doesn't rise at all, make the most of these precious months, with no regard to conventional timekeeping.
Now they want to make it official. Islanders gathered at a town hall meeting to sign a petition for a time-free zone and on June 13, Hveding met with a Norwegian member of parliament to hand over the locals' signatures and to discuss the practical and legal challenges of the initiative. Islanders hope to be free of traditional opening hours and to introduce flexibility in school and working hours. Fishing and tourism are the main industries on this island with a population of little more than 300 people.
Now they want to make it official. Islanders gathered at a town hall meeting to sign a petition for a time-free zone and on June 13, Hveding met with a Norwegian member of parliament to hand over the locals' signatures and to discuss the practical and legal challenges of the initiative. Islanders hope to be free of traditional opening hours and to introduce flexibility in school and working hours. Fishing and tourism are the main industries on this island with a population of little more than 300 people.
Time free zone (Score:5, Funny)
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Eliminate clocks altogether? (Score:3)
So, is the idea not to use clocks at all, or everyone just to set their watch the way they prefer? How exactly do you arrange (to take their example) school start and end times) with no common frame of reference?
Re:Eliminate clocks altogether? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Eliminate clocks altogether? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thus it argues to follow an arbitrary 24-hrs-per-day rhythm doesn't make much sense.
It's not really arbitrary, it's one revolution of the planet not a count of times its got dark even though for the most part it might as well be. Setting their own time scale is one thing but what happens when they need to align something with the outside world? Boat departures and arrivals for example. Are they going to convert their new time to world time? They'll have to. Seems like a needless hassle to me.
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If we really did define a day to be one revolution of the planet for practical purposes then there would be about 364 1/4 days in one year and most parts of the world would see themselves slowly shifting between nocturnal and diurnal each year.
Yeah, that's why we have leap years and daylight savings. The sun isn't exactly overhead everywhere at 12 noon and it doesn't have to get that dark, we live on a globe so it's impossible for it to be the same every where. What's important is everyone knows what time it is and what units are in play. Otherwise how are you supposed to organise anything but the most basic activities?
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That's not what I mean. We have leap years because the year length isn't an integer number of days, which is not what I'm getting at. The earth takes about 23 hours and 56 minutes to rotate completely. We have chosen not to make this our calendar day because what matters for practical purposes in the day/night cycle, which has a slightly longer period of about 24 hours.
My point is, that our choice of day definition really is about light and dark, which is has a different period length on some parts of
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I don't know what they are planning either but people handle differences in time between the source and destination just fine. When I went to London, England it was six hours "later" than what I thought it should be after getting off the plane because the city is further east. Going home after my vacation I spent a bunch of time in the plane but when I arrived it was almost the same time as when I left London. Lots of people adapt to time zones easily.
Before there were time zones cities would set their time
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I don't know what they are planning either but people handle differences in time between the source and destination just fine.
Yeah they do but that's all plus or minus from a reference 24 hour time frame. Say its 9pm your time at 5pm my time and we arrange to meet at 7pm. Online I guess but as long as we know whos 7pm that is the other can adjust accordingly. The say the circadian rhythm is closer to 25 hours so say they set their clocks to that, assuming an hour is still an hour, how is that going to match up? It's drift until it's practically useless. That would be fine if it was only them using it but they are hoping to bring p
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On the mainland, where they have clocks, it would leave and arrive back at the normal times.
On the island, there would be no posted times. Just sit and wait. It was often done that way in the olden times, before printing presses and telephones made the dissemination of schedules easy.
When my town was first founded, the only business in town was a ferry across the river. When did it run? Whenever the ferry operator and a customer were at the crossing at the same time. Fire one shot in the air for regular ser
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but you need it to be arbitrary (Score:5, Insightful)
but you need it to be arbitrary. it's not like you go to school in the "morning" in any western country nowadays. and look, what about if you have some official business at the city hall? you just go there and wait until it opens? get locked up for rowdy drinking and wait .. 5 weeks until it's tomorrow?
look, it's just a tourist attraction thing, but I would reckon tourists wouldn't care much for waiting 20 hours to check in into the hotel because the staff just decided it was time to sleep right now.
and yes I have experience endless nights and endless days at the polar circle.. a clock still works wonderfully for timekeeping. it's more than necessary as you can't just look up and see that "okay it's not dark yet so the grocery store is still going to be open" - you have to use the frigging clock. same story if you go do some work on the fields or tidying up what batches of forest you have - you can not just work until the sunset.
if the shops start to be closed at random times, that's just going to annoy even the locals eventually. sure it's not important to _them_ if they go to sleep at 2 in the noon, that's just fine, but if they want to somehow make sure that the shop is open for at least some time before they're due to go out on a fishing trip again then they in fact would like to know when it is open and when closed.
otoh, just switching the times would be fine. I would be fine with a system where in the near arctic region the regular workday would start at say 3 o clock in the morning and you would be out of the office at around 11 am and go to sleep at 17-18 pm again. at least then it wouldn't be frigging dark when you go to work and when you come out of work for almost half the year..
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it's more than necessary as you can't just look up and see that "okay it's not dark yet so the grocery store is still going to be open
Yes you can, and you can pinpoint local time with minimum half an hour accuracy, if not more.
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When the sun rises and sets each day, yes, you can. When you're well north of the Arctic Circle, like the town in this article, not so much unless you remembered to bring a sextant with you.
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One must be pretty dumb if he does not know where east and west is.
And without a compass, a sextant would not help yo much :P And high north / deep south a normal compass does not work ... so, what are we going to do? We are lost!
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it's more than necessary as you can't just look up and see that "okay it's not dark yet so the grocery store is still going to be open Yes you can, and you can pinpoint local time with minimum half an hour accuracy, if not more.
But they are talking about getting rid of time. So when its light for 6 months straight are you expecting the store to be open for 4 of them? And say you can pinpoint your local time to the exact moment. If the people in the store aren't working to that time then how is that even relevant? The point is you need some kind of way of keeping time everyone is working to otherwise no one can organise anything.
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If you read TFA it's clear that they don't want to do away with the concept of time itself, merely the rules fixing opening times and other regular events. They claim they have been ignoring them anyway and this would just formalize what is already happening.
Re:but you need it to be arbitrary (Score:5, Insightful)
If you read TFA it makes nothing clear. It doesn't say word one about rules fixing opening times, so obviously it made nothing clear to you either. It claims that this change will somehow enable people to keep whatever hours they want, but doesn't say anything at all about how.
I think it's not only a publicity stunt, but a dumb one. The residents will still have to know what time it is in Greenwich (so to speak) because they are not self-sufficient.
Getting rid of time zones or DST makes sense, they only complicate the situation. But pretending time doesn't exist is laughable at best. You can want to do business at any hour, but your non-local suppliers won't play along.
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From TFA:
"Islanders hope to be free of traditional opening hours and to introduce flexibility in school and working hours."
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I note that the word "rules" appears nowhere in that quote, nor "laws", "regulations", etc. It would appear that the only thing holding them back is... Them.
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Due to the additional confusion intentionally sown here, it is quite understandable why someone would assume laws and rules and regulations would be involved, and personally I think that was completely intended.
I agree that's most likely, although I suppose there's a chance that there's an error in translation from some uncredited source.
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From TFA:
"Islanders hope to be free of traditional opening hours and to introduce flexibility in school and working hours."
Unless it's ingrained in Norwegian law that schools HAVE to be on from 9-3 or whatever and stores HAVE to be open these times then why can't they just do that already? And if they are why the big song and dance. That's not really a time-free zone, that's just, what, a dynamic schedule?
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I wouldn't be surprised if the law does mandate certain opening times for schools. They have really good child care and education services, and really good provision for working parents, which means it all has to be on an integrated schedule.
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Still have to have fixed hours regardless. You can't have Timmy show up at 10 a.m. to school, but Jimmy only shows up at 1 p.m.
You need an agreed on time for everyone to show up. Same for stores and customers. It can't be arbitrary or you'll simply lose all your patrons.
IE : it's not clear exactly what they propose.
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Sure, fixed time, just not necessarily in sync with the rest of the country.
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I haven't been in the situation of living in the darkness for an extended period of time. I would have thought that having a routine such as regular shop openings, school at a certain time, etc would help deal with situation. As the days start to blend into one wouldn't the routine help to differentiate them apart. The routine puts markers into the darkness (or daylight in the summer) that dawn and sunset normally do for us.
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look, it's just a tourist attraction thing, but I would reckon tourists wouldn't care much for waiting 20 hours to check in into the hotel because the staff just decided it was time to sleep right now.
Yeah, what supporting statements are available in TFA are (as expected) quite vague and very handwave-y. This was the main one:
"There's constantly daylight, and we act accordingly," says islander Kjell Ove Hveding in a statement. "In the middle of the night, which city folk might call '2 a.m.,' you can spot children playing soccer, people painting their houses or mowing their lawns, and teens going for a swim.
"To many of us, getting this in writing would simply mean formalizing something we have been practi
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And yet somehow, other places like Resolute, NVT(pop 200-300)and Alert, NVT(population 50) have done a perfectly fine job with even longer periods. The winter sun is 105 days long, and the winter night is around 90 days long in Resolute. I've worked there during the midnight sun, and one of two things happen. You either get used to it, or you crash out after a couple of weeks because you're staying up for 30-40hrs at a stretch. Most people who are there on a temporary basis use aluminum foil on their wi
Re: Eliminate clocks altogether? (Score:1)
(-40ÂC x 9/5) + 32 = -40ÂF
Finally, a Celsius temp Americans can understand.
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Easier trick: (C x 1.8) + 32 = F
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Even easier: use Celsius, you stubborn morons!
That's like asking them to use metric for measurements. Absolute madness! Doing so would stop the man-made crater project on mars.
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You might actually find that the US has the best record in the world at landing on Mars.
Also, we do use metric measurements. We use both. Sorry if that is too hard for you, but the different systems have different advantages and are well-suited to different tasks.
Most Americans go to public schools. All public schools teach measurement using mostly metric. Kids grow up and realize, oh shit, that's only better for certain things. A meter is too large a unit for estimation at the human scale, and a centimeter
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Going by your UID, you should remember the cases where that didn't happen. Hence man-made crater project.
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Right, so if you got that far into understanding that I'd be aware of that, why not just weigh it yourself right then? What if my comment presumed that that is exactly what we were talking about?
What if me remembering that is the only reason to point out the actual history of landing success? How else would I know to say that?
Did you consider, if we have the best record of landing there, then perhaps it is foolish to single us out for ridicule over a specific historical failure? Perhaps pointing to "landing
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That's an awful lot of whining because you got upset over a joke man. The reality is, having grown up in Southern Ontario, back prior to the early days we learned both metric, US-Imperal and UK-Imperial. Enjoy the days of having to do double or triple conversions on products.
Here's a useful bit that'll help you out, if you value your product being sold...don't get it made in China. And if your ass is so bent out of shape over a joke, that's either the autism speaking or you were one of the people involved
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There are various systems of units called "imperial" and US standard isn't one of them.
It is purely your own bias that leads you to presume that that term would be correct.
Oh, and by-the-way, autism is a medical disorder. You seem to think it is something you can ridicule to feel important? What a pathetic prick you are.
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Your appointment for whenever is confirmed.
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I'm not sure how one would schedule a dentist appointment in a time-free zone?
Your appointment for whenever is confirmed.
300 residents. Your appointment is either on the mainland, or is right away after you make the phone call, depending on if the service is provided locally.
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That's great except schools need teachers and pupils to be all present at the same time to function. Therefore you need time to do it. Even if the school would prefer to shift start and end to account for circadian rhythm or whatever it still needs to inform people when they're supposed to turn up.
A village of 300 residents might not have the same sort of school system as most other places. It would not surprise me if they use an online curriculum and have local staff available to provide assistance should students need it, but where much of the education is as-you-go.
If that is the case, then having staff that work in shifts where the school doesn't really close might work fine, since there are presumably so few students that it wouldn't cause chaos for attendance and other record keeping. This ki
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As I understand it, the idea is to keep the regular clock and time, but basically decouple living rhythms and more specifically and legislation that is based on 24h cycles. So schools need not necessarily be open for X hours every 24 hours, starting at hour Y, but they could be open for 5 hours, then close for 12 hours and open up again for the next school "day". Similarly it makes no sense for stores to be closed at "night" when your day doesn't really have any darker periods.
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We're genetically programmed with a ~24 hr circadian rhythm. Screwing with that causes problems [nih.gov].
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Maybe not; time zones are not continuous.
Time-Free Zone (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know the specifics, but somehow, I just know Janeway is to blame for this.
Re:Time-Free Zone (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know the specifics, but somehow, I just know Janeway is to blame for this.
It's a Norwegian island damnit, not a holodeck simulation.
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How do you know? How would you prove it?
Spoiler: Nobody has solved this in 3000 years of trying.
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I don't know the specifics, but somehow, I just know Janeway is to blame for this.
Didn't we tell you? No questions before she's had her coffee, dammit!
In a coincidence, I just watched Voyager Endgame last night.
Logistic/legal/governance headache (Score:3)
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Seems like a lot of logistics on behalf of 300 people.
If they hadn't made such a fuss about this . . . would you even been aware that this place existed . . . ?
Fishing and tourism are the main industries on this island with a population of little more than 300 people.
Well, there's your answer right there . . . now some tourists of the bizarre will be looking to visit the "Island without Time".
Hey, so how do you reserve a table in a restaurant, without time . . . ?
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You don't reserve restaurant tables in remote places with 300 residents.
Even not-very-remote towns with thousands of people might not have a single restaurant of that sort.
In my medium city, almost any restaurant you call will accept a "reservation" but there aren't any reserved tables, it just means there is a post-it note next to the telephone that says "Res PRK 5pm 6p." And if there is a line waiting when they get there, they can probably talk somebody into skipping to the front because they have a "rese
Re:Logistic/legal/governance headache (Score:5, Funny)
Their clocks already had an unfortunate 'accident' after a visit from Dali. They're just changing the law since they actually have no idea what time it is anymore, especially on days that start with 'blue'.
Truly time-free is a LOT harder (Score:2)
The logistics of being literally time-free from a physics perspective are immense. About the closest you can get in our universe would be to accelerate the island to as close to the speed of light as possible relative to the rest of us. However, even then time will progress normally on the island and it would only appear frozen in time i.e. time-
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Bars have time limits to stop people from drinking themselves to death. Because human nature.
They'll still need a system.
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Nope. "Survival of the fittest" only happens during a rare selection event.
The vast majority of the time, people drink themselves to death slowly enough that they had children first. Or even during.
Pointless gimmick (Score:2)
Re:Pointless gimmick (Score:5, Funny)
Don't judge.
If you lived in a place with months of darkness every winter, and months when the sun never sets, you'd go batshit crazy too.
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24 hour shops have been a thing for a while now, it's not an out there concept and even if it doesn't get dark a day is still a day.
In my country a normal shop cannot operate continuously around the clock. If we wanted to do 24-hour shops, we'd need the law changed so, without phrasing it this way because we are well below the arctic circle, we'd have to do something similar to these people (ask the government for a change of regulations). Not doing so would mean penalties.
When people live in places with wildly swinging day/night cycles, you have to have a lot of flexibility. And people have adjusted to the cycle swings for a long long time, without pretend eliminating time. How on earth commerce could function with no time is ludicrous. So it's a publicity stunt.
But to your point of business hours dictated by law, I lived under a fairly extreme version at one time.
When I was a young'un, the town I lived in had a whole raft of business hour restrictions. The wildest one w
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In my country a normal shop cannot operate continuously around the clock. If we wanted to do 24-hour shops, we'd need the law changed... Not doing so would mean penalties.
Why not ask your government to grant basic individual economic freedom to business instead?
It doesn't work like that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Then the next year they decided to give us the same time zone as the italians. Since it's 75 deg south, there's not much difference in sunlight at midnight or midday... Yet it did. We figured that the coldest moment of the day (-50C, remember) was now in the middle of our morning, when we were scheduled to do most of our outdoor construction activities ! So we naturally shifted forward our schedule, getting up in late morning, eating lunch in the middle of the afternoon, and working late at 'night'. The end result was the same as the previous year !
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Since it's 75 deg south, there's not much difference in sunlight at midnight or midday... Yet it did. We figured that the coldest moment of the day (-50C, remember) was now in the middle of our morning, when we were scheduled to do most of our outdoor construction activities !
And in North of Norway, it matters as well. When it is warm, say 25 C and up, it is usually in the afternoon, as I guess it is all over the world in the temperate zones/subarctic zones. The midnight sun up there doesn't warm you or give you a tan, it is just nice to have and encourage you to stay up all night. Which is what it is all about -- at least for me. When I moved from that area to the south of Norway, I was shocked to learn that during the summer, when it got dark, people actually went to bed! /Jon
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This is exactly what's wrong with DST. People like to keep their phase relation to the Sun, no matter what the clock says. For example, business hours have gradually shifted from 8-16 to 9-17 and even 10-18, because "12 noon" isn't.
So you're saying that on this island, it's either noon or midnight? That'll work well.
Y'all are trying to impress some sort of logic on a publicity stunt.
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TFTFY (Score:2)
Norwegian Island Wants To Be World's First Time-Free Zone...
I realise that headlines have their own silly grammar that was born of space restrictions on newspaper pages back in the age of print but there is no need to use it unless it is absolutely necessary and in this case it wasn't.
I don't have time for this (Score:2)
The Land that Time Forgot (Score:3)
They should not do this for too long or they will en up like those poor guys:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0... [imdb.com]
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uhhh.. (Score:2)
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I've considered a sort of "night society" where we operate round the clock, and employ people on either end of the shift. People who sleep during the day, people who wake at night. You go out and your day is night, your night is day. It's dark.
It would help cut down on traffic.
First? (Score:1)
That would include turning back time...
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Time-free is inconvinient, compare weeks (Score:2)
Maybe there is no difference between 3am and 2pm for these people but the same can be said everywhere for the days of the week.
There is absolutely no difference between a monday and a sunday. We just decided that mondays will be work days and sundays won't be. It is convenient, families can be together on sundays, and people can work together on mondays. And nowadays, I don't know any single country that doesn't have the standard 7 day week, even though it is a completely artificial construct. Soviets exper
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We just decided that mondays will be work days and sundays won't be.
The most common schedule for factory workers where I live is 4 days on, 3 days off, 10 hours a day. Days off rotate through the week.
Many small stores are open Tuesday-Saturday.
Just a PR stunt (Score:2)
From the article:
"To many of us, getting this in writing would simply mean formalizing something we have been practicing for generations," he says.
So they already are a time-free zone by practical measures. Continuing, we see a glimmer of truth (bolding added):
Fishing and tourism are the main industries on this island with a population of little more than 300 people.
That's a pretty small place. My high school, tiny by American standards, was bigger. With 300 people, you aren't going to have many schools, stores, or restaurants to support the locals. But you might need a fair number for visitors. Continuing on ...
Will the islanders succeed in their efforts? It's already paying off in a publicity boost, which could well be the primary aim of the campaign.
Ah, so now we understand the real motivation. It's a PR stunt.
Good to go (Score:1)
Logical (Score:3)
It makes perfect sense to free them from government-mandated things like opening and closing times.
I would opine that government mandated open/close hours are pretty silly to begin with, but I'm not European...they seem to welcome government meddling in the most trivial details.
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There really aren't any government mandated opening and closing hours for anything apart from pubs (and, at that, not in all EU countries). Any shop or business can open and close at whatever time they like. Same with schools.
The "9-5" day is more by tradition than anything else. No laws there.
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From TFA "...Islanders hope to be free of traditional opening hours and to introduce flexibility in school and working hours."
Why would they need to appeal to the government at all in regard to working hours then, if it's just 'tradition'. You don't need sign a petition and hand it to the government to break tradition.
2019 (Score:1)
unix time (Score:1)
I see (Score:2)
Employee: "Boss, when can I go home?"
Boss: "After dark"
Interesting (Score:2)
It's an interesting one. A few things need to be considered here:
- some (most?) jobs would allow for flexible working, so long as there is some overlap for things like meetings. So it would allow people to work at whatever part of the 24 hour day suits them, within reason.
- shops being open only a certain times when people are awake at just about any time doesn't make sense either. So allow shops to open and close when it suits the people who work there. Maybe some can open 24 hours if they have the sta
All they need ... (Score:2)
Internet Time (Score:2)
I am surprised nobody has yet pointed to the (absolutely failed and, it seems, forgotten) proposal by Swatch in 1998 to globally adopt Internet Time, or Beat Time as they tried to market it. According to the Wikipedia entry,
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I don't think I ever even heard of that. I was probably too busy trying to configure sendmail in 1998.
Sommaroy (Score:2)
Re:Idiotic (Score:5, Funny)
Tourist: So what time does the tour start? Islander: (While sniffing paint) What's time?
Meeting to establish time free zone
....
When?
Re: asynchronicity (Score:1)
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But that does beg the question: what do those people do for the 300 days it's dark? Just hibernate, eat or have sex?