Tech Press Rushes To Cover New Linus Torvalds Mailing List Outburst (zdnet.com) 381
"Linux frontman Linus Torvalds thinks he's 'more self-aware' these days and is 'trying to be less forceful' after his brief absence from directing Linux kernel developers because of his abusive language on the Linux kernel mailing list," reports ZDNet.
"But true to his word, he's still not necessarily diplomatic in his communications with maintainers..." Torvalds' post-hiatus outburst was directed at Dave Chinner, an Australian programmer who maintains the Silicon Graphics (SGI)-created XFS file system supported by many Linux distros. "Bullshit, Dave," Torvalds told Chinner on a mailing list. The comment from Chinner that triggered Torvalds' rebuke was that "the page cache is still far, far slower than direct IO" -- a problem Chinner thinks will become more apparent with the arrival of the newish storage-motherboard interface specification known as Peripheral Express Interconnect Express (PCIe) version 4.0. Chinner believes page cache might be necessary to support disk-based storage, but that it has a performance cost....
"You've made that claim before, and it's been complete bullshit before too, and I've called you out on it then too," wrote Torvalds. "Why do you continue to make this obviously garbage argument?" According to Torvalds, the page cache serves its correct purpose as a cache. "The key word in the 'page cache' name is 'cache'," wrote Torvalds.... "Caches work, Dave. Anybody who thinks caches don't work is incompetent. 99 percent of all filesystem accesses are cached, and they never do any IO at all, and the page cache handles them beautifully," Torvalds wrote.
"When you say the page cache is slower than direct IO, it's because you don't even see or care about the *fast* case. You only get involved once there is actual IO to be done."
"The thing is," reports the Register, "crucially, Chinner was talking in the context of specific IO requests that just don't cache well, and noted that these inefficiencies could become more obvious as the deployment of PCIe 4.0-connected non-volatile storage memory spreads."
Here's how Chinner responded to Torvalds on the mailing list. "You've taken one single statement I made from a huge email about complexities in dealing with IO concurrency, the page cache and architectural flaws in the existing code, quoted it out of context, fabricated a completely new context and started ranting about how I know nothing about how caches or the page cache work."
The Register notes their conversation also illustrates a crucial difference from closed-source software development. "[D]ue to the open nature of the Linux kernel, Linus's rows and spats play out in public for everyone to see, and vultures like us to write up about."
"But true to his word, he's still not necessarily diplomatic in his communications with maintainers..." Torvalds' post-hiatus outburst was directed at Dave Chinner, an Australian programmer who maintains the Silicon Graphics (SGI)-created XFS file system supported by many Linux distros. "Bullshit, Dave," Torvalds told Chinner on a mailing list. The comment from Chinner that triggered Torvalds' rebuke was that "the page cache is still far, far slower than direct IO" -- a problem Chinner thinks will become more apparent with the arrival of the newish storage-motherboard interface specification known as Peripheral Express Interconnect Express (PCIe) version 4.0. Chinner believes page cache might be necessary to support disk-based storage, but that it has a performance cost....
"You've made that claim before, and it's been complete bullshit before too, and I've called you out on it then too," wrote Torvalds. "Why do you continue to make this obviously garbage argument?" According to Torvalds, the page cache serves its correct purpose as a cache. "The key word in the 'page cache' name is 'cache'," wrote Torvalds.... "Caches work, Dave. Anybody who thinks caches don't work is incompetent. 99 percent of all filesystem accesses are cached, and they never do any IO at all, and the page cache handles them beautifully," Torvalds wrote.
"When you say the page cache is slower than direct IO, it's because you don't even see or care about the *fast* case. You only get involved once there is actual IO to be done."
"The thing is," reports the Register, "crucially, Chinner was talking in the context of specific IO requests that just don't cache well, and noted that these inefficiencies could become more obvious as the deployment of PCIe 4.0-connected non-volatile storage memory spreads."
Here's how Chinner responded to Torvalds on the mailing list. "You've taken one single statement I made from a huge email about complexities in dealing with IO concurrency, the page cache and architectural flaws in the existing code, quoted it out of context, fabricated a completely new context and started ranting about how I know nothing about how caches or the page cache work."
The Register notes their conversation also illustrates a crucial difference from closed-source software development. "[D]ue to the open nature of the Linux kernel, Linus's rows and spats play out in public for everyone to see, and vultures like us to write up about."
Of course... (Score:3)
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Of course they got it wrong. The 'tech press' aren't about technology. They're about imposing politics onto those who develop it.
Re:Of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
If they can't be bothered to get such a basic, well known acronym correct, then I have to wonder about their technical chops. When 'tech' journalists do this, it is almost always a dead giveaway that they do not know much more than the average joe and should not be taken seriously. This has been understood for decades now. zdnet has always been laughable. It's just that a lot of other sites now share this condition and have joined it at the bottom feeding table.
You're ignoring the fact that the press jumps all over anything that doesn't conform to certain narratives, probably because you agree with them. They wait with baited breath for someone on their watchlist like Torvalds to commit a 'violation' they can point and screech about like the chuckleheads they are.
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The error seems more like a 'clerical' typo/editing error than a substantive technical knowledge error. First, the word "Express" appears twice in "Peripheral Express Interconnect Express" which just reads wrong even if you knew nothing about the technology. Second, the "C" in PCIe is completely unexplained in "Peripheral Express Interconnect Express".
Copy editing has gone the way of the Dodo bird in today's freelance, quick to Internet world of reporting except in the best institutions (for example, error
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If they can't be bothered to get such a basic, well known acronym correct
You said it right. Acronym. Look at all the 'C' in the word "Express". Clearly they don't know what they are talking about. Personally I think we should fire all humans and only let robots write. That way no one will every make *a mistake* again.
By the way why are you so easily trigered by a mistake?
Re:Of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that if you read the whole thread, Linus Torvalds seems to be right both about the page cache and about how Dave Chinner's mischaracterised it.
At some point you have to step up and point out when someone is not telling the truth, politeness be damned.
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I think Chinner is correct. His argument is that in certain causes where you have gigabytes per second of bandwidth to the storage device and certain types of heavy workload, it makes more sense for the application to manage caching than for the OS to try to do it.
The OS can only make certain guesses at what is worth caching. Typically data is read sequentially or in blocks, so read-ahead cache or reading entire blocks to reduce command overhead and latency makes sense. But not for some workloads like say d
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Applications that benefit from self-managing the cache, already do self-manage the cache. Any database systems have mechanisms to control the caching including the device cache and they already use DirectIO calls. Having a load of kernel code to avoid the page cache to benefit Chinner's applications that can't be bothered to implement their own strategy is a bad call for the majority of cases which is what Linus is rightly concerned about.
And all Chinner does is point Torvalds to the CoC instead of actually
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Except that if you read the whole thread, Linus Torvalds seems to be right both about the page cache and about how Dave Chinner's mischaracterised it.
At some point you have to step up and point out when someone is not telling the truth, politeness be damned.
You will read through the whole thread, and you will reach the conclusion everyone else who has done so has reached: Chinner is right.
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At some point you have to step up and point out when someone is not telling the truth, politeness be damned.
True. And if you're an adult and a professional, you should have the skills and the self-control to do so politely. It's really not that hard, especially in a non-real-time text medium where you can take all the time you need review and edit your message before clicking "send".
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It has nothing to do with the CPU caches. It's all about the OS extending the scope of reads or queuing reads in idle time that then turns out not to be idle after the read has already started.
OMG, SO ABRASIVE!!!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
He obviously needs to go!
But seriously, anyone outraged at this has definitely never dealt with other adults in any collaborative environment.
Torvalds looks like he is getting concerned... (Score:2)
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I lost a lot of respect for Linus when he basically went silent during the systemd infestation of Linux.
He didn't, actually. Dbus (a major part of the systemd axis) was banned from kernel. Still is.
Re: Why didn't he stand up against systemd? (Score:2)
You ever think the distro you chose might be at fault? Or maybe you didn't install it properly because you didn't know what you were doing?
I've never personally setup systemd. Maybe it's a pain in the ass. But lots of great software is a pain in the ass to get setup. That's why we have distros.
Linux is right yet again (Score:4, Interesting)
Chinner insists that "The world I work in..." [lkml.org] is different than the general purpose world the linux kernel is made for.
If he wants to make specialized implementations for his "world" then he is free to fork the kernel and keep going. Otherwise we can't change the general case for everyone because one person who maintains a niche filesystem wants his specific case solution to apply everywhere.
If he was right about the general case, cache would be an obsolete technology to be thrown to the wayside of the past.
Re: Linux is right yet again (Score:2)
While XFS isn't as ubiquitous as ext, it is hardly niche.
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Well then, the file system needs a cache vs direct I/O configuration flag. And then let the user tune the system for the particular application and/or underlying hardware.
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I find these psychopaths super-creepy. (Score:3, Interesting)
You know .... the kind that never swears and always has a fucking smile on his face, and is creepily calm. Who confuses that with maturity.
You *know* he's gonna be he most evil manipulative scheming backstabbing psychopath ever.
Torvalds is a HUMAN. Humans are like that. All of them. The more they disguise it, the worse it becomes!
The more open and upfront they are the more trustworthy they are.
That's why you Americans are so creepy to us Germans and Scandinavians. And why we seem "too" direct and offensive to you.
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None of the people involved in this dispute are Americans.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Chinner is correct (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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No argument about the tone. But after reading the post, I don't think Linus clealry mispresented the original post. I also do not think the post was intended to shut Chinner up. The post was intended to express disagreement with the idea that the page cache is "rapidly becoming a legacy structure that only serves to slow modern IO subsystems down". And I tend to agree with Linus that this statement is nonsense.
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...the idea that the page cache is "rapidly becoming a legacy structure that only serves to slow modern IO subsystems down". And I tend to agree with Linus that this statement is nonsense.
Ya think.
Ida Know... (Score:2)
I am not an expert, but from what I read...
Linus said that if all the IO [on the file?] is DIO, the page cach will be empty, and therefore have little effect on performance.
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intended to have only one result: To shut Chinner up.
Seems more like, call him out for repeating a blatantly stupid and incorrect claim about caching. Note: the filesystem he works on, XFS, is a big rambling clusterfuck that doesn't use cache efficiently. See a possible connection?
Now that they own him, IBM needs to put this guy on a short leash.
Re:Chinner is correct (Score:5, Informative)
Just because Linus wrote it argumentatively doesn't mean anyone was fucking hurt like politics would try to make people think.
Funny, I remember 30 years ago someone making almost exactly the same argument about "light" physical abuse. Anyone should be able to take it if there are no lasting bruises...
The inability of men (and a few women) to control themselves has been used as a weapon of intimidation and bullying since we first evolved. Over the millenia, we've gradually lowered the bar on how out-of-control we'd tolerate: murder, then heavy violence, then ,relatively recently, "light violence" have all been forbidden.
We're now taking another step, the deliberate use of verbal assault as a vehicle of dominance is no longer tolerated in most workplaces. (And I think brutal language followed up by an ad hominem attack qualifies).
I'll admit I'm a little amazed at how many people are defending this sort of abuse. But then I remember people defending "light" domestic violence after the laws made it a crime.
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You've got one hell of a logical fallacy.
Just because the line of "what's acceptable" has been moved from the past, doesn't mean the line should continue moving forever.
Or should we continue forever where you're expected to preface every sentence with a disclaimer acclaiming how much we love the person before every sentence?
The goal is getting work done. If people are being screwed, that's a problem. But if people NEED to be told to STFU to get work done, then THAT'S the way it should be. The goal is output
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For a real world example of the line moving too far? The !@$@'ing Rotherham rape scandal. Over 1000 children raped because police were too afraid of SEEMING racist to their peers.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ro... [wikiwand.com]
They cared more about appearing civil than they cared about the goal at hand: _stopping children from being raped._ And real human beings are forever scarred for it. Just because the cops lived in a culture where civility mattered more than plainly citing the facts.
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Chinner did not suggest that caching should be abandoned
I am not sure how you can read this rant differently:
That's my beef with relying on the page cache - the page cache is rapidly becoming a legacy structure that only serves to slow modern IO subsystems down.
To me that very much suggests the page cache should be abandoned.
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Legacy? (Score:2)
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The O_DIRECT thing really is a horrible kludge that breaks the very concept of a file system, and Linus Torvalds has bitterly complained about it in the past (it seems that it was somehow forced upon him)
Right, it was Oracle. A pox upon them. I would be perfectly ok with just deleting O_DIRECT and Oracle can fuck themselves.
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Yeah. Imagine all the dick swinging and arguments at Boeing over the MCAS system design. But once the decision was made, everyone must put on their happy face for the press and outside world. Or else.
Bad Words Ohh My (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh my god someone used a bad word when debating open source software. What will we ever do.
What makes a discussion or mailing list effective or welcoming has very little to do with how blunt people are or if they call bullshit or say something is stupid. Yes, there are some people who are put off by that conversation style but there are people who are put off by every conversation style. Plenty of people find faux cordiality unpleasant.
As anyone who has spent any time in academia knows it's just as easy to be deeply dismissive, exclusionary, insulting etc.. while maintaining the pretense of collegiality. Some of the most judgemental and spiteful things I've heard said have been delivered using academic language which an outsider might not recognize as anything but the most mild criticism.
What matters more than bluntness or crude language is how likely participants are to carry grudges, whether people expand disagreements outside of their original contexts.and whether they hold off on harsh criticism until they know the recipient understands the ropes and will see it in context.
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The rule is pretty simple. Treat others how you wish to be treated. When you come off as an asshole people will just stop dealing with you.
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Perhaps the problem isn't using a bad word but not understanding the point before going on an immature rant?
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Linus is no longer an underdog, but rather a physical embodiment of the establishment. As such, his words wield power. Public displays of demeaning speak and actions towards 'everyday folk' thus harms the recipient and disgusts the audience, similar to seeing a puppy getting kicked.
eloquent profanity is an art (Score:3, Insightful)
right on Linus Torvalds you tell them what you think, and if they dont like it then they can GTFO & FOAD
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Except this is the head guy driving the XFS project, which a lot of people use, which attracts a lot of money and commercial development to Linux. Telling him to GTFO and FOAD is going to harm Linux. Linux is bigger than Linus now, and as developers we should expect better, and as users we should want better.
Linux *really* needs a kernel module compat. layer (Score:2, Offtopic)
What Linux (or at least, Android) *desperately* needs is a way to optionally create binary kernel modules capable of working (or at least, progressively limping in compatibility mode) on at least a few successive kernels, instead of catastrophically breaking every. single. time. even the most trivial change gets made to the kernel.
Yes, it would be awesome if all kernel modules were open-source.
No, Qualcomm is never going to let it happen. And US consumers have close to zero market power over Qualcomm, becau
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I hope you understand that this is only an issue when somebody is trying to game the GPL license by shipping binary modules. A universally hated practice, kernel devs and users alike. Or in other words, fuck you Nvidia.
Actually closed source is pretty good (Score:2)
The only person I have encountered with Torvald's issues was an obvious psychopath, who only had his job for historical reasons.
Sound familiar?
Change the leadership (Score:2)
Linus had long created a hostile, deconstructive development environment. It is time that the developer community start to move Linus to the periphery so that constructive discussion can become the norm.
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It's been deemed EC10: CONDEMNED. Take your prozium, comrade.
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Why did my mod points run out yesterday???
Nothing to add because this post is correct in every respect.
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Torvalds was both an Asshole and wrong.
Wrong for calling out the obviously brain damaged claim ""the page cache is still far, far slower than direct IO"? Excuse me sir, it is you who is wrong, and obnoxious to boot.
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You are quoting out of context.
And: obviously direct IO is faster if stuff is not in the cache. And it is easy to find use cases where the data *I* need is basically never in the cache.
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People who are wrong don't suddenly realize their mistake when they are subjected to belittling of any kind. Instead, they become more defensive, and dig in
Torvalds is not an asshole, he's at worst annoying. An asshole is someone blows smoke in your face. Torvalds is just strongly defending his position and seems to have a natural language limitation of dynamic range when trying to voice his disagreeance.
I've never had issue with these types of people. I find the best way to deal with them is to prove them wrong. If they dish it out, they can take it. Once you've established yourself as being capable, they start to listen to you. I actually enjoy these kinds
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You sound like the biggest bitch I've ever seen on slashdot.
1) why is Linus wrong? At the end chinner admits he made a mistake.
2) Linux told him why it was wrong.
3. This isn't the first time chinner tried to pull this shit. Linus told him before.
So please, with your all knowing amazing social team/skills, tell us, in your infinite lefty social ways, why Linux wasn't correct in what he said. About the cache.
Yah, this. Exactly.
Re:What happened to manliness? (Score:5, Insightful)
I really hope the summary ommitted much worse things Linus said, because this is bullshit. (Proudly did not RTFA)
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2, Interesting)
Its Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the fact that Linus says he's more self aware these days suggests that he knows it.
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"legitimate godhead". Seriously?. No. Linus is very knowledgeable and talented but he's not a "God" with respect to Linux or anything else. Don't confuse designated leadership with god-like abilities. Your mocking is ironic given that, in fact, Linus didn't build Linux on his own. Is often the case in technology a single individual is given all the credit for a team effort.
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Linus is very knowledgeable and talented but he's not a "God" with respect to Linux.
Linus is not a god, maybe, but he is godly. If you don't understand that then you just haven't been paying attention. For example, google "linus bug hunt".
Linus is also reportedly good in bed, as a typical god ought to be. Something about that wetsuit...
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Hero worship is a dangerous thing in science and technology. It can seriously impair one's technical judgement.
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Calling Linus a godly hacker is simply stating a fact. My condolences if you lack the tools to understand why.
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I'm sure you think that anyone who disagrees with you "lacks the tools" or has some other imagined flaws. Calling someone "godly" is obviously an opinion and thus could never be a fact.
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Really? Which distro was created entirely by Linus without any help with the kernel or GNU libraries?
We are discussing history which has nothing to do with "the rules". But you misunderstand - I've never had any interest in contributing to Linux.Thus there is no "door" for me.
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:3, Insightful)
Being an asshole when it doesn't benefit you shows a lack of restraint, which is definitely a form of weakness.
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2)
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2)
subjectivity is overrated (Score:2)
Actually, just because a single word is commonly employed to encompass a wide range of meanings doesn't automatically make it a subjective construct.
Alex Vermeer: Unpacking Suitcase Words [alexvermeer.com] — October 2009
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2)
I've noticed that many brave assholes like to mod down...
Anything you've supposedly "noticed" would quite obviously have to be pure projection.
Any other blatant irrationalities you'd care to share?? ;)
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Having the traits listed is not the same thing is being an asshole.
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Let's get this in perspective. Chinner is one of the more obnoxious serial assholes on LKML, so when he makes some flat out dumb ass stupid and potentially misleading claim and Linus whacks him for it (politely and logically in 99% of the text, the one well deserved outburst excepted) it's not easy to get really weepy about it.
This is way different from the old-time muggings of innocent victims that used to be a regular and accepted thing on LKML.
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The term "asshole" was around a long time before even Millennials' parents were born. Perhaps you are too young to remember
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What's with the Millennial fetish? The term "asshole" was used as a stronger synonym for "jerk" for many decades at least.
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Says obnoxious anonymous coward.
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:5, Insightful)
Racism wasn't related to "race"
Literally a contradiction in terms.
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:4, Informative)
Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
Bias is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.
You're confusing racism with bias. Not everyone is racist, but nearly everyone has bias. It is important personally to know your bias through self-awareness, and compensate when it matters. Socially, it is important to recognize racism, and it is important to not be seduced by racist propaganda, and then it is especially especially important not to repeat racist garbage. Try not to frame yourself that way.
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If you think SJW's can be triggered, wait until the unicorns and the rest of the imaginary creatures hear about it.
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What Linus said about C++ suggests he's not always acting confidently, but sometimes defensively. He could have confidently stated that as the leader of the Linux project he simply decided that C was a better choice. But instead he went on a rant about how terrible C++ was.
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:3)
A social cue is an interpersonal hint.
A social queue is a line where people wait to talk to someone.
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No, a social queue is where people in a line talk to each other while waiting in an orderly fashion to access some resource (which could be a person they want to talk to).
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Big business will rue the day it allowed social justice beachheads on its turf. It's already happening to companies like facebook and google.
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Manliness in Western culture has been defined well enough via the Code of Chivalry. Bravery (e.g. to stand up to bullies), piety (i.e. modesty and tolerance) and manners. Other cultures likely have similar variants, e.g. the Samurai code.
I'd disagree.
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Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2)
You don't see the irony in stating "neighbors" is wrong but "neighboring tribes" is ok? Aren't the members of neighboring tribes - by definition - your neighbors?
Re: What happened to manliness? (Score:2)
Vikings did this shit for hundreds of years. They only stopped because it became so successful that they essentially dominated European royalty for the next 500 years.
Re:What happened to manliness? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually he never directly called him incompetent, and you have misrepresented what he said. Instead it seems more like Torvalds is calling him dishonest. Even that seems more like a call to cut the crap and stick to facts in the debate rather than actually saying that he is, at his core, a liar.
I can only guess that you either failed to read the comment or perhaps it is due to some agenda you have. Directness gets things done. I work with someone who is just like this, and I have to admit it can be trying at times. Despite the somewhat bruised "feelings" I might get at times we often rapidly come to a conclusion because we aren't wasting hours on eggshells tip toeing around someone's bruised ego.
Chinner standing up for himself is exactly what needed to happen, and after a bit more back and forth I'm sure they'll resolve this matter without the care bear patrol coming to his aid.
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Teachable moment: It may be that "Linus fucking failed" and that would be attacking the argument, not the person.
Being careful to attack the argument in a ferocious way, and avoid attacking the person. That helps keeps the focus on the facts and moves the discussion towards the truth.
Linus did fail in that he tried to take a swipe at the person ("anyone who thinks caches don't work is incompetent"). But he's trying. He runs a huge, central-to-how-the-world-runs project. He's gotta
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Linus did fail in that he tried to take a swipe at the person
When the person keeps coming back with the same bullshit argument again and again, at some point it is he himself, all by himself, that has made it personal, himself being the person.
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"avoid attacking the person"
There's a golden rule, treat others as you would have them treat your self.
Linus fucking failed at learning that rule, so he gets a healthy dosage of a reminder every time I see him fuck up. If he expects his bullshit to set others straight, then it is not unreasonable for me to assume the same thing and act the same way towards him.
See how that works?
Re: Linus knows jack shit about caches/buffers (Score:2)
My contributions to tech? I work on raw silicon. I program the machines that make your solar panels at high speeds. I design new machines that produce higher quality silicon wafers that run Linus' crap.
What do you do?
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"So, where's your OS which scales from watches to basically all the biggest super computers listed?"
Sitting in under 1.3MB of data, directly in hard ROM, based from 32-bit MenuetOS .Linux can NOT work in our production facility, been tested and it simply does not have the immediate network-wide direct IO that we require (in other words, when we scan a barcode, EVERY MACHINE ON THE NETWORK instantly knows. Not possible with Linux, tons of VMs in a single system, or any other config you can think of.) Too muc
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"At least you were bright enough to reply anonymously, Khyber."
Except I never reply anonymously, you fucktard. Unlike you, I have the gonadal fortitude to put my identity behind my words. What about you, you cowardly fuck?
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"Where the hell did you come out from?"
Obviously a better school that teaches one how to speak proper English. From where did you come?
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Funny words coming from a faggot with the name "PenisLands." You took all of, what, 5 seconds to quit jerking it to child pornography to write that?
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I've been there w.r.t. outsourcing.
However, by spewing vitriol you force the other person to be come defensive and there's little valuable exchange after that.