Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Businesses The Almighty Buck United States

America Needs To See Amazon's Tax Returns (theverge.com) 307

An anonymous reader shares a report: Amazon's taxes have become a campaign issue. In last week's Democratic debates, two different candidates (Cory Booker and Andrew Yang) called out Amazon for paying $0 in federal income taxes last year, even after listing $4 billion in profits. Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, and President Trump himself have brought up the same point at various points on the campaign trail, always directed at Amazon. In a CNN interview after the second debate, Bernie Sanders singled the company out as an example of a broken tax code, saying simply, "I'm going to tax them."

"We pay every penny we owe in corporate taxes including $2.6 billion over the past three years," Amazon said when reached for comment. "We've invested $270 billion in the US since 2010 and created more than 275,000 jobs." But there's an awkward truth behind the political back-and-forth: we don't know what Amazon's tax bill really is. Like every other company in America, Amazon's tax returns are private, legally considered to be a trade secret. We don't know which tax breaks they're taking, or how they've structured their finances to avoid various taxes in favor of others. If Amazon says its tax bill was lower because of investments, we simply have to take the company at its word.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

America Needs To See Amazon's Tax Returns

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 01, 2019 @03:46PM (#58857058)

    The poor have no money, and the middle class have no lobbyists.

    It's like taking candy from a baby.

    • Taxes are for those who have made profits in excess of costs. Since we encourage long term investments, we allow you to "carry over" losses because of R&D investment to subsequent years when those investments will provide returns.... Amazon is a campaign soundbite. Nothing more. They are taxes at high rates, but their prior year losses have offset their tax bill. Once they pay that off, they will be paying taxes again.

  • Open the books... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jzarling ( 600712 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @03:52PM (#58857100)
    Any company that receives any form of tax credit, tax break, government subsidy for anything should have to make their tax records public, along the lines of non profit 501(c) guidelines.
    • by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:04PM (#58857570) Journal
      It's kind of pointless here, though. We know how much tax they payed, we know how much they earned, we know what loopholes they used. We aren't going to learn much from "opening the books" here because they are already open enough.

      Instead of calling for Amazon to "open the books," politicians should talk about how they will close those loopholes. Right now it sounds like they won't close them.
      • It's kind of pointless here, though. We know how much tax they payed, we know how much they earned, we know what loopholes they used. We aren't going to learn much from "opening the books" here because they are already open enough....

        Didn't even read the summary, eh?

        But there's an awkward truth behind the political back-and-forth: we don't know what Amazon's tax bill really is. Like every other company in America, Amazon's tax returns are private, legally considered to be a trade secret. We don't know which tax breaks they're taking, or how they've structured their finances to avoid various taxes in favor of others.

      • Instead of calling for Amazon to "open the books," politicians should talk about how they will close those loopholes.

        If that $1 trillion dollar tax cut that was given to the rich last year is any indication, the plan is probably to close the loopholes by removing their tax burden in its entirety.

  • How much have they invested in politicians who bend the tax code for their benefit? That's something that should be openly discussed as well.

    How about businesses be denied certain deductions as they grow larger, until the larger corporations have no deductions at all? For instance, a 1 shop operation that only does business locally gets to deduct it's furnishings but Microsoft & Amazon don't. This way small local businesses get the benefit of a helping hand but a successful multi-national corporation

    • A politician might truthfully answer, "How about we increase the deductions the more they donate to politics?" Nah, who am I kidding, they aren't truthful.
  • by maroberts ( 15852 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @03:54PM (#58857120) Homepage Journal

    Trump wanting to see tax returns of someone who makes a lot of money.

    Wonder who it reminds me of.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 01, 2019 @03:55PM (#58857122)

    I think the reason that Trump doesn't want his tax returns released is because he is committing Tax Fraud.

    Sure, he submits them to the IRS, but they are understaffed (thanks Republicans) and underfunded (thanks Republicans). Meaning, people with resources can rip off the IRS. Like Trump.

    • "I think the reason that Trump doesn't want his tax returns released is because he is committing Tax Fraud."

      Do you honestly believe Trump is the sort of person that does his own taxes ?

      I don't think Trump is the sort of person that does ANYTHING by himself.

      He has people who do it for him.

  • Amazon's taxes have become a campaign issue. In last week's Democratic debates, two different candidates (Cory Booker and Andrew Yang) called out Amazon for paying $0 in federal income taxes last year, even after listing $4 billion in profits.

    Amazon paid what they were obligated by law to pay.

    Don't hate the player. Hate the game and rules.

    • Don't hate the player. Hate the game and rules.

      Bullshit. Plenty of people choose to not play by those rules because they're not sociapaths. You probably haven't ever heard of them because they're not super rich.

    • Don't hate the player. Hate the game and rules.

      These are politicians we're talking about. It's easier for them to hate on the player because they made the rules.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:03PM (#58857182)

    Amazon has operated at a loss for many years, and only recently became profitable. They surely have carryover losses to offset several years of profits. They also invest heavily in R&D, with things like Alexa, AWS, etc. and they get credits and deductions for that. It's not cheating, even if they end up having to pay $0 in US federal income taxes for a few profitable years.

    Nor are they exempt from paying all kinds of other taxes, especially local property taxes on facilities and UI, worker's comp, and FICA taxes on their employees.

    You can look at their 10k and see how much they paid in taxes overall, but not broken down.

    • They got really, really, really big for constantly operating at a loss.

      I think the term "loss" should be used more carefully.

  • Stock Options (Score:5, Insightful)

    by maz2331 ( 1104901 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:03PM (#58857188)

    The reason why Amazon can pay zero income tax is that they permit the exercise of stock options. This is where executives and other employees can buy stock at a rate far below market value, which results in the corporation taking the difference as a business expense, and lowering its tax liability. However, that same value counts as ordinary income (not capital gains) to the person exercising the option and is taxable for them. Note that corporate tax rates are lower than individual rates by about 20 percentage points, so the IRS actually ends up collecting far more money than if Amazon paid the tax directly, it's just paid by the execs who exercise the options instead of the corporation.

    • Not just that (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:42PM (#58857452)
      Amazon, like any major corporation, uses losses, often over month/years to offset profits. We allow corporations to, for example, take a loss from a decade ago and apply it to profits today. Donald Trump got caught doing this in the few leaked tax documents we have.

      Imagine if you could "average" your earnings from when you had a shit job in your teens to now? Or if you just happened to land a good paying job after decades of low pay? That is how the Amazon do.

      Also there's offshore tax havens, and we'd be fools to think they're not being used by Amazon. The "Dutch Sandwich" and the like.

      And all this is before we talk about the much, much lower interest rates large corporations and billionaires get to borrow money at. Most billionaires in America are broke, because they're borrowing money at or below effective interest rates and going into "debt" as a way to avoid paying taxes. Again, something you and I can't do.
    • Re:Stock Options (Score:4, Interesting)

      by magarity ( 164372 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:22PM (#58857672)

      The reason why Amazon can pay zero income tax is that they permit the exercise of stock options. This is where executives and other employees can buy stock at a rate far below market value

      Sorry, no, that's waaaaay too simplistic. Stock options as a benefit are when an employee can purchase up to a certain amount of company stock for a preset price (strike price) within a certain time frame. The strike price may frequently be very slightly under market price when first offered but the idea, especially for executive level employees, is that by the end of the time frame the value of the company has improved so that the strike price is well below market price by the end of the time frame. If the executives do a crappy job then, no, the strike price is not automatically well below market price.

      • Okay but what Amazon actually offers isn't stock options. It's ESPP, and RSUs.

        ESPP works exactly as the GP described. However I'm very doubtful that takes most of the bite out of the tax burden, since it's something like 10% of 15% of an employee's salary max, if they opt in. I might have those numbers wrong, I don't work at Amazon, but it's fairly typical.

        RSUs are stock given as compensation. There's no strike price, no fair market value, it's not optional -- you just get stock and it is treated as inc

    • This. People need to stop thinking of taxes as being assessed against entities. That encourages an us versus them mindset which leads to all sorts of ridiculous tax laws.* You need to think of taxes as being on transactions. Any time money changes hands, it gets taxed. Once you start thinking of it this way, you realize there's no difference between a corporate tax and an income or capital gains tax on shareholders. In one case the money is taxed before the company distributes it to the shareholder. I
  • No they don't (Score:5, Insightful)

    by reanjr ( 588767 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:08PM (#58857238) Homepage

    You have access to the tax code already. The only reason to see Amazon's returns is to unfairly single them out by closing loopholes they are using. If you don't want tax avoidance, get rid of all loopholes, not just the fashionable ones.

    • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      The only reason to see Amazon's returns is to unfairly single them out by closing loopholes they are using.

      Or to determine which loopholes cost taxpayers the most and prioritize those to take a closer look at. This doesn't have to be about Amazon.

      • This doesn't have to be about Amazon.

        When you're demanding to see Amazon's tax returns because you think Amazon is cheating on their taxes and should be paying more, yes, it is about Amazon.

        Any law which singles out Amazon for special treatment would be called a Bill of Attainder and is unconstitutional.

        If you want to see if Amazon is paying correctly, the IRS is the agency to figure that out. You can bet they have access to the tax return data you think you deserve to see. And the House has the power to request the IRS look into it via the

  • ...because THEY'RE THE ONES THAT WRITE THE TAX LAWS.

    If they hold up Amazon as "look at this guy exploiting the system" the simple reply is:
    - who made the system as it is, and
    - how much did you pay more than you needed to, last year?

    Trump just hates Bezos because it's personal, like everything with Trump.

    And if Bernie Sanders promises "I'm going to tax them"...then Mr Sanders needs a refresher course on how the three branches of government work.

    My God the candidates (and current officials) for president in 2

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:21PM (#58857314)

    I think company tax returns should stay private, otherwise many medium size companies could easily become targets for extortion, or politicians can get an unrealistic idea in their head how much they can confiscate from private companies to pay for government pork.

  • People have been picking companies that line up with their ideologies to make a point, when in reality it's the whole underlying system at fault. Amazon doesn't spring up in a vacuum, nor are the only issues with them.

    Take your pick; Walmart keeping people under FTE to avoid paying bennies & taking advantage of incentives to come into town, only to abandon the area and leave a service desert behind after driving out competition.. gas/oil companies getting huge subsidies even when making record profits

    • My guess is we'll see these tax returns when we see the POTUS's - never.

      He might release his tax returns this campaign cycle, but only for the last four years, to show that he made zero dollars as president of the United States (his corporation, on the other hand, of course made quite a lot).

    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      You have no right to inspect Trump's (or Amazon's) tax returns. By law, tax returns are private, and if any government agency outside the IRS wants to see them, it requires either a court order or a "very good legislative reason".

  • by stikves ( 127823 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @04:22PM (#58857326) Homepage

    Profits, business expenses, employee compensation, taxes and such usually cancel each other out. Amazon or any other large corporation might be paying $0 in income taxes, due to one or more of:

    - They might be investing the money (future corporate tax)
    - They might be giving employees and management higher compensation (personal income tax)
    - They might be paying dividends (capital gains tax)
    - They might have purchased real estate (property taxes)
    - They might be writing off a loss (past "negative" tax)
    - They might be paying taxes in another jurisdiction (corporate tax, but somewhere else)

    or a similar action.

    A profit is "eventually" taxed, however where, when and who pays the tax differs.

    • - They might be paying dividends (capital gains tax)

      A pedantic nit. If the corporation is paying dividends, that's ordinary income to the shareholders. It will also tend to boost the stock price and thus generate future capital gains taxes.

  • There are many things that are legal.

    But just because they're legal, doesn't mean that they're fair.

  • Alexa: Here are Donald Trump's tax returns.
    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      Why the obsession with seeing Trump's tax returns?

      Because you think he committed crimes and documented them in his tax returns?

      You can't believe he's that stupid.

      Because he's the leader of our nation?

      well then maybe we should examine the returns of the first few people in the line of succession - President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House - and since we want to make sure they aren't hiding anything in their spouse's return, their spouses return should also be shared.

      Because he cheat on his taxes an

  • It's an interesting study of how the human brain works - that legislators can tax a typical person on so many things that the person doesn't realize their actual complete tax rate. Income tax, property tax, sales tax, gas tax, utility tax, tolls, capital gains, etc.... The average person is probably taxed at close to 50% when you add it all up. I'm tired of hearing "tax corporations more". Those increased taxes will simply be passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices for goods and services. C
    • We're talking about corporations that benefit from being in USA but pay zero in taxes. It's not about "paying more", it's about paying at all.

      And you might want to check on the few that own huge chunks of big corporations such as Amazon.... amazing how much the common man *doesn't* own of Amazon. Bezos owned over 15% last I checked.

      • by kenh ( 9056 )

        And you might want to check on the few that own huge chunks of big corporations such as Amazon.... amazing how much the common man *doesn't* own of Amazon. Bezos owned over 15% last I checked.

        Want to bet that CalPers is invested in Amazon stock, so by extension, California state employees and retirees are shareholders. For example, "CalPERS also holds 1,565,467 shares of Amazon" [bizjournals.com]

  • Why stop there (Score:5, Interesting)

    by registrations_suck ( 1075251 ) on Monday July 01, 2019 @05:16PM (#58857634)

    Why not just make ALL tax returns public information? I am sure half of the public, you know, the half that do not actually pay any income taxes, would be all over that.

    No company (or President) should be required to make tax returns public. Enforcement is the role of the IRS, not the public at large.

    • Why not just make ALL tax returns public information? I am sure half of the public, you know, the half that do not actually pay any income taxes, would be all over that.

      In Finland, Sweden, and Norway, all tax returns are public information. In Norway it's been that way since the 1800s.

      No company (or President) should be required to make tax returns public. Enforcement is the role of the IRS, not the public at large.

      If the IRS is so great at enforcement, how was Mueller able to obtain multiple tax fr

  • Nearly all of the large corporations are not paying SHIT.
    It is high time to re-do our taxes, only simplier and not able to be screwed:
    1) drop all tax breaks, deductions, exemptions, etc. These are RIP-OFFs to everybody else. Just wrong. This is where CONgress gets to screw over all of us in a hidden fashion. So, lets drop them all and not allow anymore of them.
    2) change Corporate tax to either 20% or 0%. If the company is based in America/dividends paid here, and 40% of labor/labor costs is done here,
    • 1) drop all tax breaks, deductions, exemptions, etc. These are RIP-OFFs to everybody else. Just wrong. This is where CONgress gets to screw over all of us in a hidden fashion. So, lets drop them all and not allow anymore of them.

      Republicans tried to do this, but it didn't work, because no one wants to get rid of the tax break for mortgages.

      • because no one wants to get rid of the tax break for mortgages.

        People complain because it "isn't fair" that Amazon pays as little as it does, but then want to get rid of all deductions, including the mortgage deduction.

        How fair is it to promise a breadwinner that he can deduct the mortgage interest on the home loan he takes out to provide a home for his family, and then take away that deduction because "we hates Amazon" and have to do something?

        The mortgage deduction is a part of the long-term planning when someone buys a home. How much home can they afford? The dif

        • How fair is it to promise a breadwinner that he can deduct the mortgage interest on the home loan he takes out to provide a home for his family, and then take away that deduction because "we hates Amazon" and have to do something?

          It's not really about 'fair'

          • Actually, it IS about being fair. We need desperately to balance our budget. Likewise, we need to make our tax system fair, which it is not. Basically, somebody that gets $100K in wages, should pay the same in taxes as somebody that gets 100K in salary, bonus, lottery, etc.
            Then as to Corporate taxes, these have become a joke. We are actually taxing companies that create jobs here, while allowing those that offshore to pay less all the way to 0. That is just insane. By taxing the dividends of those that ar
        • Plenty of nations do not have home deductions and do just fine. In fact, by having ZERO deductions, etc, but then having a much lower tax rate, we can all make our own choices.
        • by kenh ( 9056 )

          The elimination of the home mortgage deduction would drive DOWN the value of homes, impacting current home owners, and wreaking havoc with things like local property taxes.

          The cap on SALT deductions is a good idea - it forces California residents to shoulder the costs of their local policies and decisions, rather than deducting their local taxes from their federal income taxes.

          You want to get rid of the mortgage deduction, go ahead - but you're going to have to deal with a lot of angry property owners who w

      • The GOP never really did. They talked a lot, but when they are in control of CONgress/WH, they do nothing. What is needed is for the dems to join them and both put America first.
    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      Fourty-seven percent of tax filers pay no net federal income taxes. [theatlantic.com] When Trump cut taxes on those folks that actually pay taxes, the lowest 47% of tax filers felt cheated - they wanted their tax refunds to grow.

      You want the poor to start paying "their fair share"? Awesome, but they aren't going to like it...

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Wrong, private citizens tax records need to be private. Their income sources and finances are none of your business. The IRS has the job of dealing with any problems.

      As for big corporations, would be interesting to see tax records but Amazon and many others legally avoids paying taxes.

    • All taxes should be public record,

      Rescind the fourth amendment. Good idea. There is no problem when the government demands that citizens tell them exactly how much money they earned, how much alimony they paid, what medical costs they incurred, how many blind or old people they support, what they paid in local and state tax and local property taxes, and a thousand other things that really are nobody else's business. Turn all that data over to anyone who wants to see it. Public record. Last year your neighbor won big at the casino, this yea

    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      what people do with their money affects the economy which affects everybody which means everyone should be accountable to everybody

      Seems to me you are also of a mindset that people should share their Credit Card statements and bank account records, since "what people do with their money affects the economy which affects everybody which means everyone should be accountable to everybody".

      How about it - ready to share your credit card statements? I have a few questions about some interesting items on your credit card, and I'd love to hear why you withdrew $300 at 11:30 PM on a business trip in Chicago? Whats the matter, don't you want to

  • The folks complaining that Amazon "paid no taxes" are simply demonstrating they have no idea how the US Tax Code works. Amazon filed their return, I assume their return was audited by the IRS ($4BN in profit, no taxes do? Let me take a little look-see how we got here...")

    People act like the tax code has a secret section that says something like "If you earn more than $1BN you owe no taxes". I seem to recall GE paying almost no corporate income taxes [factcheck.org] for years, mainly because they had a building full of tax

  • Since the Supreme Court decision that decided " Corporations are people too ", it's my opinion they should share in the pain that is the higher tax brackets we the people have to endure year after year vs the much lower corporate tax brackets.

    I mean, if you want all the rewards and benefits of being a person, you should also share in our pain.

    If you want to bribe . . . .er donate mega-money to your chosen candidates to influence elections, then your tax brackets should reflect that of the individual, not a

  • No matter how much or how little Amazon pays in taxes, those seeking further control over civil society would use the figures as a weapon of invasion, and use it as a precedent to attack privacy on both for-profit and non-profit organizations that can be useful tools, or are seen as political enemies.

  • Can I have tax breaks too? Oh, and we bought a house recently; that cost a fortune. I guess I can "carry the loss" for the rest of my life.

  • We're taking the IRS' word.

Avoid strange women and temporary variables.

Working...