Why Won't Foxconn Tell Wisconsin What It's Building? (theverge.com) 98
An anonymous reader shares a report: Whatever Foxconn is building in Wisconsin, it's not the $10 billion, 22 million-square-foot Generation 10.5 LCD factory that President Trump once promised would be the "eighth wonder of the world." At various points over the last two years, the Taiwanese tech manufacturer has said it would build a smaller LCD factory; that it wouldn't build a factory at all; that it would build an LCD factory; that the company could make any number of things, from screens for cars to server racks to robot coffee kiosks; and so on. Throughout these changes, one question has loomed: given that Foxconn is building something completely different than that Gen 10.5 LCD facility specified in its original contract with Wisconsin, is it still going to get the record-breaking $4.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies?
Documents obtained by The Verge show that Wisconsin officials have repeatedly -- and with growing urgency -- warned Foxconn that its current project has veered far from what was described in the original deal and that the contract must be amended if the company is to receive subsidies. Foxconn, however, has declined to amend the contract, and it indicated that it nevertheless intends to apply for tax credits. Foxconn has "refused by inaction" to amend the deal, says Wisconsin Department of Administration Secretary Joel Brennan. "They were continuously encouraged. It's a relatively recent development, where they have said, 'No, we don't want to do anything with the contract.' Our expectation has been, and continues to be, that they should want to come back and have discussions about this." Further reading: Wisconsin's $4.1 Billion Foxconn Boondoggle; One Year After Trump's Foxconn Groundbreaking, There is Almost Nothing To Show For It; and Foxconn is Confusing the Hell Out of Wisconsin.
Documents obtained by The Verge show that Wisconsin officials have repeatedly -- and with growing urgency -- warned Foxconn that its current project has veered far from what was described in the original deal and that the contract must be amended if the company is to receive subsidies. Foxconn, however, has declined to amend the contract, and it indicated that it nevertheless intends to apply for tax credits. Foxconn has "refused by inaction" to amend the deal, says Wisconsin Department of Administration Secretary Joel Brennan. "They were continuously encouraged. It's a relatively recent development, where they have said, 'No, we don't want to do anything with the contract.' Our expectation has been, and continues to be, that they should want to come back and have discussions about this." Further reading: Wisconsin's $4.1 Billion Foxconn Boondoggle; One Year After Trump's Foxconn Groundbreaking, There is Almost Nothing To Show For It; and Foxconn is Confusing the Hell Out of Wisconsin.
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They're free to have privacy and freedom, they're just not free to get a massive handout for it.
Because it's a scam (Score:5, Insightful)
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The idea of a sunk cost fallacy aimed at the Wisconsin government. The factory is already there, ready to start, ready to create jobs, and all Foxconn wants is a fix to the contract.
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Perhaps this is just China building a simple, mid-USA listening station....there, easy peasy!
Some times the simplest explanations are the best ones.
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Perhaps this is just China building a simple, mid-USA listening station
Unlikely, since Foxconn is not a Chinese company.
My guess is they are flip-flopping to buy time to see how the election turns out. 11 months to go.
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Note that Foxconn is Taiwanese, not Chinese Communist (although they do have a lot of manufacturing assets on the mainland).
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all Foxconn wants is a fix to the contract.
TFS says Foxconn doesn't want to fix the contract.
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TFS says Foxconn doesn't want to fix the contract RIGHT NOW. I'm saying they'll have it fixed (in their favor) once the factory is finished.
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And why would they want to change it? They'll simply claim they met it and are due the $4B. No changes needed. And no, I'm not commenting on future predictions. I'm simply commenting on the current state of the contract.and Foxconn's current claims.
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What, there's no money trail? They can always put the former governor on the stand. What? There's no trial? Well, nothing to see here then
Re:Because it's a scam (Score:5, Interesting)
at this point the only question is what the scam is.
While they're building a "factory" in Wisconsin they get tariff exemptions for their tech customers based on the idea that the U.S. wouldn't want to endanger the Wisconsin project.
Thanks (Score:2)
But I'm pretty sure G.I. Joe has PTSD after he had a leg blown off by a drone protecting Saudi Oil fields.
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Chinese Company under political pressure because it doesn't have a US presence.
Created a deal that FoxConn will allow exports if it makes some products in the US.
They probably did some contracts stuff where square footage of the factory vs number of employees or average salary of employee. They created some metric which they had agreed to meet.
They bid out making a large building to different communities. Some poor rust belt community gave them the golden ticket costing the community millions of dollars th
Re:Because it's a scam (Score:5, Insightful)
They're all scams. That's why government needs to get out of the way.
No - the government needs to collect its taxes on companies, just like us citizens. These tax exemptions are bullshit. I'm tired of billionaires (ahem, Bezos) skipping paying "their fair share," and us having to compromise because they aren't paying. Every little penny-pinching story regarding healthcare, food stamps, and infrastructure (as examples) is only because these companies are charging us, they're customers and then the government has little choice but to charge us, tax paying citizens. If I had a $4B tax exemption, I'd be wealthy too. Hell, I could enjoy a lot, a lot more than I do. F***ERS!
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If I had 4 billion dollars to pay tax on... things would be different.
However, the bigger problem is that the corporations have become so large they can command that kind of attention from states.
There needs to be changes in corporate law to force corporations to be smaller and more diverse.
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No companies pay taxes. Not a one. Taxes are folded into the costs of goods and services and passed on to us citizens.
Re:Because it's a scam (Score:4, Insightful)
No citizens pay taxes as companies have to pay their employees enough to cover taxes by folding those taxes into the costs of goods and services.
Re: Because it's a scam (Score:1)
The scam was that Foxconn was going to build until the last governor was voted out and the current governor basically told them they wouldn't get any subsidy. They already had sunk costs but trimmed the program.
There is no question about whether they'll get the tax reductions because the Wisconsin governor already said no. At this point it's basically looking to what can be saved on Foxconn's side.
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That doesn't matter when the next government just rescinds the contract, state governments are sovereign entities. Moreover, this wasn't a binding contract, both sides agreed to do something and over the next x years, Foxconn would basically get a ~$100-150M/y tax break on their taxes (which is $1000/employee rebate on a $5-10,000 tax levy). Now, the state won't get anything and people will remain unemployed.
Re: Because it's a scam (Score:1)
It's a wait and bribe scam (Score:5, Insightful)
The credits were approved under a pretty (allegedly) corrupt Republican administration. That administration lost the last election and a Democrat came in. They're obviously waiting until a Republican comes back in to file rubber-stampable plans, since the Democrat said they should have better oversights on corporate giveaways.
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Well, the orange man said it was a world wonder. More likely the world will wonder how he (and Wisconsin) could have been so gullible.
They are building a moat (Score:1)
So that their employees get a soft landing when they jump off the roof.
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So that their employees get a soft landing when they jump off the roof.
When all the jobs at the Wisconsin Foxconn plant are filled by suicidal robots, the only job left for us will be robot psychologist.
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"the only job left for us will be robot psychologist."
Dr. Susan Calvin, is that you?
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Nope. It's Dr. Sbaitso, from Creative Labs.
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Obscure reference there.
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It has often been said that China would never invade the US because it would be too difficult to bring sufficient forces in a short amount of time.
However, if China had a factory in the US churning out millions upon millions of anti-personnel drones, the problem of invading the US becomes pretty moot as you can just send out the drones to kill everybody.
Nice Trojan horse you got there...
Trojan ... Pegusus? (Score:1)
However, if China had a factory in the US churning out millions upon millions of anti-personnel drones, the problem of invading the US becomes pretty moot as you can just send out the drones to kill everybody.
Nice Trojan horse you got there...
What do you call a Trojan Horse that flies? Just asking.
Re: Trojan ... Pegusus? (Score:2)
A trojan pegasus. Duh.
Re:Building Chinese Military Drones (Score:4, Insightful)
You might want to do a little reading on the difference between the Republic of China (Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (what we know of as "China").
A Taiwanese company is pretty unlikely to do anything to help China.
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You might want to do a little reading on the difference between the Republic of China (Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (what we know of as "China").
A Taiwanese company is pretty unlikely to do anything to help China.
Foxconn may have the mailing address for its HQ in Taiwan but I assure you it is very much a mainland China company. Their first factory was in Shenzhen and by now that city is basically Foxconnburg.
Mission accomplished (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 2: There is no step 2 - the process is done
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Only pedants think giving them a pile of infrastructure/civil boons for free isn't a money conversation.
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The benefit is jobs instead of people wandering around stunned.
The hemming and hawing as companies hit the road from localities whose politicians rode to power promising to punch the businesses in the nose harder than the other guy, is priceless.
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What do you call building needed infrastructure without charging for it? Because that's what the tax break amounts to. It was a questionable deal in the first place, but now that Foxconn has cut the number of people they will hire, it's a clear net loss for the state.
Somebody will have to make up for that loss. As a conservative, why are you supporting wealth redistribution? In general why are you supporting redistribution from the relatively poor to the relatively rich?
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Conservatives will settle for a stable business environment without constant threats of tax increases, and an additional hundred billion dollars in regulatory burden each year.
Deal?
Didn't think so.
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But apparently they won't. Unsustainable tax breaks for a few at the top is not consistent with removing the threat of a tax hike. Nor is deficit spending (eventually they'll have to raise something to pay that back. Guess what that something is...).
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That something is typically job growth. More jobs making more money means more money in. Sure, both parties have to reduce spending altogether, but nobody is willing to touch benefits because it is political suicide. Thus you eventually get like Europe, you'll continue raising taxes to pay for bankrupt programs until you get to the austerity measures and the whole economy tanks.
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What job growth? The big deal in this case is that the jobs went poof before the interviews even started. The whole thing was a bit like the high school kid who doesn't bother to study or learn a trade because he's sure he'll be a rich rock star (even though he can't play an instrument yet) or become a pro football star.
Next time, just throw a fist full of quarters down the wishing well. The odds are better.
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I find this to be very interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/us... [theguardian.com]
Wisconsin can deny the application (Score:3, Funny)
"[Foxconn] nevertheless intends to apply for tax credits"
Dateline: the near future, from somewhere in the bowels of the Wisconsin bureaucracy:
Wisconsin denies Foxconn's application for tax credits due to lack of eligibility.
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Dateline: the near future, from somewhere in the bowels of the Wisconsin bureaucracy:
Wisconsin denies Foxconn's application for tax credits due to lack of eligibility.
We can hope. I'm just fine with that outcome. But the cynic in me says:
"Dateline: Alternate Near Future. Wisconsin bureaucracy grants tax rebates to ineligible Foxconn because, well, huge campaign donations tbh (where 'huge' << '$4.5 billion', if we're continuing to be honest)."
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Dateline: the near future, from somewhere in the bowels of the Wisconsin bureaucracy:
Wisconsin denies Foxconn's application for tax credits due to lack of eligibility.
We can hope. I'm just fine with that outcome. But the cynic in me says:
"Dateline: Alternate Near Future. Wisconsin bureaucracy grants tax rebates to ineligible Foxconn because, well, huge campaign donations tbh (where 'huge' << '$4.5 billion', if we're continuing to be honest)."
Take the next step, please. This is why politicians go into politics to begin with. That's the way it is around most of the world, why should it be any different here? They just need to do a better job thanks to free speech and the press, and use memetic cover stories to get votes, but otherwise it's the same.
"NO! NOT MY POLITICIANS!"
Riiiiiight. And the spouses and kids get rich, what a coincidence.
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Wisconsin denies Foxconn's application for tax credits due to lack of eligibility.
It isn't the 1990s anymore. They will get some portion of the tax credits. They've made too many campaign contributions to let a little thing like "eligibility" get in the way.
Re:Wisconsin can deny the application (Score:4, Insightful)
They've made too many campaign contributions to let a little thing like "eligibility" get in the way.
Campaign contributions only help if the recipient wins the election.
Scott Walker lost. He was voted out last year.
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Scott Walker lost. He was voted out last year.
Scott Walker is not the only politician in Wisconsin.
Why Won't Foxconn Tell? (Score:1)
Because nobody will make them tell. It's the old adage, don't volunteer anything.
It's a simple matter to tell them they won't get the money unless they abide by the contract, but the corrupt politicians wetted their beaks so they aren't going to care.
People get what they vote for.
Re:Why Won't Foxconn Tell? (Score:5, Informative)
Because nobody will make them tell. It's the old adage, don't volunteer anything.
It's a simple matter to tell them they won't get the money unless they abide by the contract, but the corrupt politicians wetted their beaks so they aren't going to care.
People get what they vote for.
The politicians that supported this boondoggle were the last set of politicians. Scott Walker, the previous governor, did all kinds of underhanded things, such as using a lame-duck session after his failed reelection to curb gubernatorial powers before the Democratic governor-elect could take office. He created the Wisconsin Economic Development Council which handed out over$120 million over 2 years and resulted in only 2100 jobs created (out of 6100 expected). Basically, he really liked handing out free money to corporations.
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The politicians that supported this boondoggle were the last set of politicians.
Yes, we know the history. But the voters failed to elect a new set of politicians to undo it all. So, there they are. The DNR will have to raise hunting/fishing license fees to make up the shortfall.
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The politicians that supported this boondoggle were the last set of politicians.
Yes, we know the history. But the voters failed to elect a new set of politicians to undo it all.
Uh, Scott Walker lost his re-election campaign. So yes, the voters did elect a new set of politicians.
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The Republicans have so thoroughly gerrymandered both the state assembly and senate districts that there is little chance that they will lose control of either house for the foreseeable future. They also have a solid grip on the state supreme court for now. As icing on the cake, they just yanked much of the governor's power to actually do anything.
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That's good news. The governor shouldn't be a dictator just because he's a Democrat.
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So I suppose that you think that the next time they elect a Republican governor in WI, they should give him back his normal powers?
Re:Why Won't Foxconn Tell? (Score:5, Informative)
There may be a non-asshole candidate C running, but nobody votes for him because -- get this -- nobody votes for him. Actually, it's not true. You get a few people (like me) who vote for C, but since C doesn't win, people still tell you "well, you get what you vote for" because they're overgeneralizing "people" when "people" didn't vote a single way, "persons" did.
Re: Why Won't Foxconn Tell? (Score:1)
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Read up about the Overton window and consider how it might affect your voting choices.
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"People get what they vote for" is a nice sentiment, but in most elections your options are asshole A and asshole B. There may be (completely valid) arguments about which asshole is less shitty, but both of them are definitely assholes. Perhaps you need to move to a country without those shitty assholes?
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That doesn't absolve the majority in any way. If the majority [we're talking about 95% here] can't be bothered to look beyond the assholes, they get what they asked for, and it doesn't help the cause for majority rule, for which nobody has found a suitable alternative. Kinda puts us in a bit of a pickle
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You'll often hear, "If you vote for C, you're throwing your vote away."
I feel a bit differently. I think you're only throwing your vote away if you vote for someone you don't genuinely want in office.
Show up to your primary (Score:2)
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Pub patron 1, "Wot? You voted for Johnson?"
Pub patron 2, "Well... I had to. He was funnier, wasn't he."
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People get what they vote for.
It's funny you say that because Tony Evers ran for governor on the platform that he would cancel the Foxconn project. So the people said, "we don't want this" by voting in Evers and the Republicans in power decided the people were wrong and took away the power the cancel the project.
True story [wikipedia.org]
Early in December 2018, a special legislative session was called by Walker to pass a series of bills to limit the powers of Governor-elect Evers, as well as incoming Democratic State attorney general Josh Kaul who had defeated incumbent Brad Schimel. [122]
Other bills being considered included restrictions on early voting and the passage of Medicaid work requirements, which Walker had previously held off on due to the election. [123] A similar law restricting early voting that was passed several years prior had been ruled as unconstitutional. [124]
The bills were widely denounced by Democrats and others as a “power grab.” Congresswoman Gwen Moore described the move as a “coup” that “hijacked the voters’ will.” [125] Walker and other Republicans meanwhile argued that the bills were necessary ”checks on power” and that they did not actually strip any real powers from the executive. [126] Lawsuits were filed by Evers and various labor unions almost immediately after Walker signed the bills into law. [127]
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I'm aware of all that. Still the voters didn't resist the gerrymandering and just reelected the same old legislature. They have no one to blame but themselves. They have to take their own initiative, or let Foxconn and more people in the future continue to rip them off. It's their choice.
Scamming wisconsin no doubt (Score:1)
Tax write off (Score:2)
Dump money into this thing knowing it will fail and then claim the losses to help your bottom line.
Why isn't Wisconsin on the hook for 3 Billion? (Score:2)
That Foxconn doesn't build the plant is one thing, but wasn't Wisconsin supposed to be out the money regardless?
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That Foxconn doesn't build the plant is one thing, but wasn't Wisconsin supposed to be out the money regardless?
Yes. Even before this, in January of this year, Wisconsin would have been subsidizing $346,153 per job created, at the projected 13,000 potential new jobs.
But Trump and Responsible, ethical, business minded Republicans are in charge, so it will all work out great. Trump travelled to Wisconsin to take credit for the subsidy. “Everybody wanted Foxconn,” he said. “Frankly, they weren’t going to come to this country. I hate to say it, if I didn’t get elected, they wouldn
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That Foxconn doesn't build the plant is one thing, but wasn't Wisconsin supposed to be out the money regardless?
Lol, of course they will. They'll get all they were promised and more. Mark my words.
Typical Republican BS (Score:5, Insightful)
Corruption at its finest.
Research shows time and again that corporate subsidies aren't worth it. If we really want to use tax payer money to help create jobs, put the money into infrastructure or education or healthcare.
SMH
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Research shows time and again that putting the money into education and healthcare isn't worth it. The government is bad at everything (as intended) and therefore should be minimal at best. Interference in education has eliminated school choice and while school taxes and salaries go up yearly, end results are worsening with about 5% of high school graduates not even being able to read their own diplomas - the US Department of Education actually has nothing to do with Education, instead policing school lunch
If it were me (Score:2)
Yes, DUH (Score:3, Insightful)
"... is it still going to get the record-breaking $4.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies?"
Yes, because our dumbfuck president and the numbnuts in Wisconsin fell for Foxconn's snowjob like goobers at the County Fair.
I predict they'll get every dime of it, and more. Watch and learn, kids.
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Actually, the contract is the contract, and the contract stipulates the circumstances under which any of the subsidy can be paid.
Good thing that there's no such thing as "changing a contract", or defaulting and daring the injured party to spend tens of millions pursuing it in court.
The people of Wisconsin got screwed by the Governor, Scott Fuckface Walker, who basically gave away the farm for bus change. And the dumbshits in Wisconsin cheered him on.
Never going to happen (Score:1)
( I live here in wisCONsin and have been following this)
Anyone who knows anything about LCD manufacturing knows this was never going to happen.
All you're going to get is a giant "factory" that takes assembled in Mexico, white boxed displays and prints shiny new labels on them and ships them up the street to the Amazon distribution center in Kenosha...
https://isthmus.com/opinion/op... [isthmus.com]
https://isthmus.com/opinion/op... [isthmus.com]
A couple of truck drivers and some minimum wage dudes to load/unload them is all you need.
Fox
The writing has been on the wall (Score:4, Insightful)
Not news: Conservative Republican governor got rolled by Chinese billionaires that hold all the cards.
Not news: We have a stable genius ultimate deal maker CEO so much winning you will get sick of it Republican president who also got rolled like he always does.
Not news: The "deal" never made sense to begin with. Just dividing the subsidies amount by the best case job creation numbers you find some outrageous amount of money spent per job. I forget what it was.
Not news: It was always a PR gimmick from the start. They will still claim this is a victory brought about by their ideology somehow.
Not news: MAGA hat rally cultists totally buy it.
Not news: Everything Trump touches dies.
Actually, I am failing to see the news here. I give up at this point.
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And here we are!
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The retards here seem to miss the fact that $0 in tax credits have been applied for and given. There thus is no scam and Wisconsin is still going to get jobs out of a factory of some sort.
There is no problem.
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The retards here seem to miss the fact that $0 in tax credits have been applied for and given [yet]. There thus is no scam and Wisconsin is still [possibly] going to get jobs out of a factory of some sort.
There is no problem [yet].
Fixed that for you. 8^)
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It was $3k/y or something in that area if the jobs were actually created. Not all that bad, given the government was getting back at least triple that every year in income taxes. But the idiot new governor cancelled it under the pretense of doing something about 'evil corporations'. Well, now people have no jobs, how's that budget going to look now without the 13k extra jobs?
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Where you getting your numbers?
This article [japantimes.co.jp] back in 2018 calculates the cost per job as $346,000. Each Wisconsin taxpayer share of that is about $1,800. There are many sources from all political orientations that back this up.
Except, of course, right wing opinion generators and MAGA hat wearers.
Related coverage from Bloomberg BusinessWeek (Score:4, Informative)
Here are some interesting articles related to this topic by investigators at Bloomberg BusinessWeek:
Inside Wisconsin’s Disastrous $4.5 Billion Deal With Foxconn [bloomberg.com]
Foxconn Struggles to Put Wisconsin First [bloomberg.com]
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no, there is no problem. it is NOT a 4.5 billion dollar deal because zero tax credits have been applied for and given.
so stop the hysteria, nothing happened.