Wikimedia Says It is Deeply Concerned About India's Proposed Intermediary Liability Rules (techcrunch.com) 50
An anonymous reader shares a report: Wikimedia Foundation, the nonprofit group that operates Wikipedia and a number of other projects, has urged the Indian government to rethink the proposed changes to the nation's intermediary liability rules that would affect swathes of companies and the way more than half a billion people access information online. The organization has also urged the Indian government to make public the latest proposed changes to the intermediary rules so that all stakeholders have a chance to participate in a "robust and informed debate about how the internet should be governed in India."
India proposed changes to intermediary rules in late December last year and it is expected to approve it in the coming months. Under the proposal, the Indian Ministry of Electronics and IT requires "intermediary" apps -- which as per its definition, includes any service with more than 5 million users -- to set up a local office and have a senior executive in the nation who can be held responsible for any legal issues. Amanda Keton, general counsel of Wikimedia Foundation, said on Thursday that India's proposed changes to the intermediary rules may have serious impact on Wikipedia's business -- as it operates an open editing model that relies on users to contribute new articles and make changes to existing articles on Wikipedia -- as well as those of other organizations.
India proposed changes to intermediary rules in late December last year and it is expected to approve it in the coming months. Under the proposal, the Indian Ministry of Electronics and IT requires "intermediary" apps -- which as per its definition, includes any service with more than 5 million users -- to set up a local office and have a senior executive in the nation who can be held responsible for any legal issues. Amanda Keton, general counsel of Wikimedia Foundation, said on Thursday that India's proposed changes to the intermediary rules may have serious impact on Wikipedia's business -- as it operates an open editing model that relies on users to contribute new articles and make changes to existing articles on Wikipedia -- as well as those of other organizations.
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India writes Indias rules
True, but they are also responsible for enforcing those rules too. If Wikipedia's servers are outside India then I don't see what consequences there would be to simply ignoring the rule. I cannot imagine that any country would extradite someone for running a free and legal website there that citizens of India choose to interact with.
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The consequences appear clear to me: India would require all ISPs to block access to all websites operated by Wikimedia Foundation.
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While, I am not sure this would apply ( your servers being in the US ) but doesn't europe have some sort of privacy rules that american based web sites have to agree to?
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And maybe ours.
So easy to comply with. (Score:1)
Go ahead and set up an "office" in some really cheap slum, then hire some untouchable as your executive and pay him a pittance. If India decides to hold the "executive" liable, well good luck, Samir.
Re:So easy to comply with. (Score:5, Funny)
"How bad did I screw up?"
"Pretty bad."
"Am I fired?"
"Oh, no, worse than that. You're being transferred to the Hyderabad office."
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While I don't know how bad it can get in Hyderabad,
I just started to laugh and then I pictured where different bosses could send people to...
a favela in Brazil.
old south Bronx when it was burning.
Hoboken ( ask bug's bunny or do the video search )
Detroit during the riot's
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Alternatively, do the right thing, and respond to the idiot politicians with a hearty, "Whatever, dude. Good luck with that."
Re:Why don't they just do like the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Compare this to the US where beloved 2nd coming of god emperor Donald 'Jesus' Trump ... uhh ... never mind.
What's weird is that it's you people who believe these strange things, not the people who voted for him.
He's just a guy we voted for. The weird hero worship and fantasy stuff is coming from your mind and heart, not mine. He evokes weird things in you guys ...
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Astronauts coming back from the moon didn't worship the ablative heat shielding, but that didn't keep them from appreciating what it was doing for them and insisting that it should stay installed.
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Perhaps I read too many comments on Fox News and perhaps they're all just trolls but "The Chosen One" (as he has called himself) does appear to be worshiped by quite a few. I don't believe they're representative of all Trump supporters, but I believe it is true of a certain amount of his base.
I can only imagine how the public would have reacted if Obama had called himself "The Chosen One" or told Jews they were "brutal killers". I suspect we'd never hear the end of it. When someone accuses Trump of lying
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Compare this to the US where beloved 2nd coming of god emperor Donald 'Jesus' Trump ... uhh ... never mind.
What's weird is that it's you people who believe these strange things, not the people who voted for him.
He's just a guy we voted for. The weird hero worship and fantasy stuff is coming from your mind and heart, not mine. He evokes weird things in you guys ...
I don't believe (as in religious faith) anything about Trump. However, I know he is an second rate chiseler, a windbag, a liar, an incompetent businessman, a morally bankrupt person devoid of any common decency (he proved that when he cheated on his pregnant wife with a prostitute), ... the list goes on. I just find it funny that people like you thought him fit to rule the United States and voted for him when he so obviously ticks every box on the list of features defining the kind of nightmare-president Am
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I just find it funny that people like you thought him fit to rule the United States and voted for him
The president doesn't "rule" the United States. Again, it's your mind that seems to hold him in this weird magnified status, not mine.
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If you want to have "no connection [to the USA]" then you'd best not send faxes, emails and wire transfers operatively connected to your fraud through U.S. systems. You missed that part of the Wikipedia article, didn't you.
"I have no connection to that package of drugs that I mailed to Buckingham Palace
India can write all the rules it wants... (Score:4, Insightful)
Their options are are to do nothing when the rules aren't followed, and be seen as impotent blow Garda...
Or, they can ban services and organizations that refuse to follow their draconian rules that require the creation of an India based executive roles and offices, but will only serve xenophobic interests and further hinder India's standing on the global stage.
As they say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar...
India should be working to make their country somewhere that these organizations _want_ to set up shop. Better infrastructure, codifying fairness for all (and creating globally acceptable laws), crack down on folks behaving by an old set of cultural standards and laws, create paths where all of the population can do more than exist but can actually build and grow. Given their environmental issues, and relatively low of labor, they could be at the forefront of renewable manufacturing and technology.
Re:India can write all the rules it wants... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not clear that the laws are "draconian". Having a valid local contact address so that companies can be held liable and brought to court for abuses is an understandable goal. Holding a company accountable for client abuse, for stealing from their clients, for illegally spamming them, or for illegally sharing client data is awkward if not impossible. Have you a better suggestion to keep them accessible for lawsuits from clients or prosecution for criminal activity?
Re:India can write all the rules it wants... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more because of specific issues that apply to an encyclopedia. If everybody demands a local director that can be held liable for crimes, then Wikipedia has to hire a Russian manager to go to jail for gay propaganda. A Chinese one for illegally claiming that something happened on Tiananmen Square in 1989. A Turkish one for making up a genocide that absolutely definitely never existed. And an Indian one for claiming that Jammu & Kashmir is in a problematic situation.
With every government including democratic ones setting up Truth Committees it's going to be a terrible nightmare for Wikipedia if they have to respect every country's laws.
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Dont want that? Stay in the USA with full legal protection and upload free "data" to the world.
Let the world use a computer network to request data from a US server.
100% staff in the USA and its all about US law.
For what ever freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom after speech grants.
The state and federal laws on been an internet publisher in the USA...
Hire staff in Russia and face Russian laws...
New Zealand? Ireland? Canada?
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Didn't read the law but does it even apply here? For stuff like apps it's easy enough to have them removed from local app stores if they don't comply with local laws.
Re:India can write all the rules it wants... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not clear that the laws are "draconian".
However, it is abundantly clear that the law is ridiculous and unenforceable. Every law should be required to have an answer to the question, "What happens when no one complies?" What will India do when they call out various volunteers throughout the world for writing articles they don't like, and the volunteers respond with, "What? Who are you? How about you go get bent?" ?
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Other countries have figured this out [legalzoom.com] without requiring local offices, and more to the point local executives (hostages) that can be jailed without the trouble of demonstrating that they themselves are culpable for the actions involved.
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with no assets or offices or executives in the jurisdiction, why would any company be fool enough to comply with this law either?
In order not to be blocked by the counterpart to China's Great Firewall.
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In order not to be blocked by the counterpart to China's Great Firewall.
Then they can work on circumventing the blockage. Let's make the internet more bulletproof.
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Accountability. (Score:2)
Re:Accountability. (Score:4, Insightful)
Good luck with enforcing the rule. Wikimedia may WANT to be the encyclopedia reference for the world, but there is nothing that forces you or I to give them any credence whatsoever. It is just another website where nobody knows the author is a dog.
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Wikimedia doesn't want it, all while trying to be the encyclopedia reference for the world, well too bad - more countries should do this.
The problem is countries like China that would hold Wikipedia "accountable" for publishing "lies" about something like Tiananmen Square that, according to the Chinese government, never actually happened.
If you want to publish truth, you have to *avoid* having physical presence in countries like that (which, unfortunately, is pretty much anywhere these days)
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more countries should do this.
Well, maybe if the regulators are held accountable, you might get your wish. There's too much corruption in government to allow them to define and enforce "accountability".
It is far better to make the internet more resistant against interference, circumvent the blockades.
In other news (Score:3)
I wrote rules that say that my neighbors need to mow my yard. Any neighbor that does not comply will be held accountable. However, I am not a tyrant, so I wrote provisions into the rule the excuses the 85yr old widow next door from participating.
I'm sorry. I tried really hard to continue with the sarcasm, but. . .
NOOOO!! That is not how this works! That is not how ANY of this works!
Hey! India! Up yours!
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That's exactly how it works if you do business in India. If you sell your app there or run a web site that transacts with people you need to follow Indian law.
If you don't want to do that just untick India in the list of app stores and places you accept payments from.
Product liability common (Score:2)
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But how often is the product built by the customer? Governments, and the average person, are trying to fit this model into existing molds.
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No gov can understand how to "legally" work with something as new and complex as a charity.
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Many countries hold companies accountable for product liability. So if a consumer injured something to pursue otherwise do not let dangerous junk in a country. Typically need to setup at least a holding company and usually need a local registered officer to get things done. While possible to designate a local rep they will want indemnity and not intermediate with fly by night businesses. The software businesses now getting similar attention. Not sure how well India new rules compare to EU , US , Japan but those are fairly aligned to OECD type rules.
The problem with applying the current product liability to online sites is determining exactly what they are responsible for when it is user supplied content. Should Uber be responsible for drivers? IMHO, yes, because they can control who drives, check backgrounds and remove bad drivers. Should Wikipedia be held liable because a user edits a webpage that results in offending some elected official? Product liability thus becomes a way to censor sites under threat of liability. At some point, companies need
Common carrier status (Score:2)
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for publishers, charity workers, hosting and publishing content...
Curating content.
Still got that ISP feel as a publisher with US "common carrier status".... in another part of the world outside the USA... ?
Should EU, German laws work in the USA?
Then why should US ideas of "common carrier status" for a US ISP work in India over online content?
Want US protections? Stay 100% i
Welcome to (Score:1)
What did people think it would be like the USA all over the world with US IPS like protections "online" for ever?
Welccome to the "business" of publishing.
Just like any set of "encyclopaedia" books would.
To be legally sure of their content in the nations they published in.
Like the US telco system, US software and OS workers had to respond to the needs of the NSA and US gov.
In India a publisher has to be "responsible" for their content.
India bad for having a legal system?
US goo
A great law, in my eyes! (Score:2)
People on the Internet are assholes because of anonymity. In real life, they wouldn't dare and risk being shunned or outright punched in the face.
So if this forces Google to present to us, somebody ... *to punch him in the face* [youtu.be] ... Daily. For the utter catastrophe that is YouTube recommendations and the complete inability to give feedback and see what it results in, then that was already worth it.
If it gives us the ability, to finally meet that Wikipedia admin who *deletes fucking everything* that isn't wr