Federal Workforce Too Reliant On College Degrees, Says Trump Administration (techtarget.com) 235
dcblogs writes: In the federal government, approximately 30% of the 2.1 million civilian employees have a master's degree or above. That's compared to about 15% at large firms in the private sector, according to the White House's 2021 budget. The federal workforce is also older than the private sector. The average age of federal workers is 46, versus 42 for all others. The age gap is most acute for the youngest workers, with only 7.3% of the federal workforce younger than age 30 compared to 23% of private sector workers. "Over-reliance on degrees can be a barrier to entry" to federal jobs, the White House argued. Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.
Won't argue that... (Score:5, Insightful)
But, it ought to be noted that economists and attorneys do NOT make up the majority of Federal workers. It's possible to be too reliant on advanced degrees, and still concede that SOME jobs require advanced degrees....
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"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right to ignore it"
sorry, couldn't resist...
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"I will defend to the death"
When people say this, you know they are full of shit.
People fundamentally do not know what that means, because if they were serious they would already be dead, shot down by the police as they stood up for someones rights, because there are already numerous folks needing this deadly defense right his moment.
I might stand by my principles until death, but I will not be defending someones rights until I die, because there is not a single fuck here willing to do the same in return.
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I believe a WHOOSH is in order here.
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No, I got your meaning, I just choose to ignore it and add my 2 cents along a different path. Sorry if that took some wind out of your sails.
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I wasn't sure, hence I prefaced it with 'I believe'.
My mistake, no wind missed.
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People fundamentally do not know what that means, because if they were serious they would already be dead, shot down by the police as they stood up for someones rights, because there are already numerous folks needing this deadly defense right his moment.
In the US? AFAIK we're the only country that actually holds this overarching philosophy. No point in running to China to take a bullet for a protester, we'd all be dead by now. The rest of the first world may not shoot you for it, but they'll certainly haul you off to jail for an off-colored joke [wikipedia.org].
Sure, some jackoff will probably quote numbers from the world press freedom index, but that entire site is BS because it downranks the US for things that it won't downrank other countries for (for example, a journa
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"I will defend to the death"
When people say this, you know they are full of shit.
It's pretty obvious you never served in the military. Those of us who have have literally sworn an oath to just that, and many have done that very thing. It's true, Joe Blow the fat ass couch-sitting football expert who says that is full of shit, but there are many out here, current and former military, who still hold true to their Oath of Enlistment/Office.
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I have served in the military, and speaking of their oath quite frankly I am wondering why the fuck they are not dragging POTUS out of the White House.
Re:Won't argue that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Won't argue that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, Federal Attorneys still need to be a member of the bar. The new requirement appears to be that they disregard any ethics or constitutional law courses they may have taken. Connections with shady Eastern European operatives certainly is welcome, if not an outright boon.
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Only if they are willing to sell the dossier to the other side when the requester decides they want to embrace the candidate they were trying to undermine in the first place.
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"And to be honest what is the point of paying for employees with advanced degrees when expert input is ignored, or indeed actively discouraged/disdained, as part of decision making and policy development."
Bingo, but that is not the point of the "Business" use of the Education system.
Businesses requiring college degrees for things is a wage suppressor mechanism. It also serves as justification for hiring cheap foreign labor in place of higher salary demanding locals because they can make up absurd job and e
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Wait, so your answer to out of control capitalism pillaging the middle class is... more out of control capitalism?
I've got news for you bud, government is just... us. Just citizens. Sure, we can outsource the functions to others. We can even forget we are the masters and let others master us. But in a democracy, especially a constitutional republic like ours, government is what we choose to make it. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
The people who hate government are the ones who wou
~ 15years on /. 1st time saying this (Score:3)
Where. are my upvotes
Re: Won't argue that... (Score:3)
âoeBehold, homo economicus in wild. Once a proud and confident offshoot of its more collective cousins, has more recently become threatened from the sheer weight of empirical evidence. It is rare to see one with this confidence level, no doubt influenced by isolation from others and a moderately above average income.â
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Most folks are driven by more than getting one over the other guy. We are much more than purely selfish. Nature itself it full of examples of cooperation.
Government is no different than any other group of people, except that government is paid for by us and operated to profit no one but us. Sometimes we may fall asleep at the wheel and let a socoiopath take over, but that is still our responsibility, and within our powers to fix through peaceful means. With most other groups, you can't vote the bums out.
By
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Re:Won't argue that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, it should also be noted that the older you are, the more likely you are to have an advanced degree, both because those take time to obtain and because younger people these days are less likely to see the value in getting a degree beyond a bachelor's degree.
Thus, if the federal workforce is older, you would automatically expect there to be more advanced degrees, regardless of whether they are required for the job. So comparing the number of employees with advanced degrees tells you little.
Also, a lot of low-end jobs (food services, janitorial services, etc.) get contracted out by the federal government to private companies, which shifts those folks from the federal bucket to the private bucket.
Also, there may be differences in the average education level of the people who are interested in taking federal government jobs.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some federal agencies have funds available to help their employees go back to school for additional education. If so, that would further skew the statistics, because outside of big companies, that's pretty rare in industry.
So the right question to ask is not how many employees have those degrees, but rather what percentage of job listings include advanced degrees as a requirement.
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I think the bigger issue is to get some raises you need to get an advanced degree. I doubt very much that there is as high a percentage of masters for people hired-on.
As for the age delta... well, why would you want to work for the Feds straight out of college? You want money / prestige at first, and then you “settle” for job security.
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It is all about being able to validate the reason for your hiring. In government, yep, those degrees are meant to be proof of qualification together with experience. In private, well, nepotism and who you know is all the qualification you need, more often than is appropriate.
In government post employment, you must be able to validate why they were selected and why another citizen was rejected, in private, not so much, if fact very often not at all.
So want people without qualification in government, prove th
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If you think your plans to get past a missile tracking system haven't already been thought of by dozens of experts, analyzed and taken into account, then incorporated into the system, you obviously haven't seen what the new generation of missiles can do. Sure, throwing burning bits of stuff in front of missiles might have worked 40 years ago. They called them "flares". Most new systems ignore flares and would ignore your exp
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I'm going to go with citation needed [insidehighered.com].
Most people get a Master's degree shortly after college, statistically. Assuming that the rate of Master's degree conferrals is exactly the same regardless of when you were born, then the rate of increase in conferrals should lag behind the rate of population growth by about 24 years, give or take some margin of error. The growth rate of Master's degrees in the U.S. from 2013 to 2018 was only 1.7 percent. However, the population growth rates ~24 years before those yea
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The low-degree-requirement jobs are generally done by contractors.
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But, it ought to be noted that economists and attorneys do NOT make up the majority of Federal workers. It's possible to be too reliant on advanced degrees, and still concede that SOME jobs require advanced degrees....
Of course, you could get rid of all the economists with no negative impact, and probably a positive one.
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Yep, tell you what, get your IRA management company to get rid of its economists, see how that works out for you.
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I have a hard time disagreeing with this, but I kind of think that as you increase the education of experts within a system you often just increase the complexity of a system faster than you actually improve it.
Do government research labs skew the results? (Score:3)
Considering how many research labs the government operates, I wonder how much this skews the results.
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Most federal jobs are either degreed positions, or fields populated by retired military (program management, logistics, etc.) And retired military often have advanced degrees because they are allowed time and funding during their service to pursue those degrees and are rewarded after achieving them.
A corporation likely employes their own stock boys, point of sales clerks, janitorial staff, food preparation, grounds keepers, drivers, etc. These positions are all contracted out in most federal facilities. T
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Complex Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm curious. Did you manage to type that with a straight face?
Re:Complex Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I'm sure he did, because otherwise you're left with people who read a book sometime long ago by someone like Ayn Rand or some other word-vomiting self-important ideologically-driven nut job, and decided they'd learned all they need to know about anything. An actual education introduces you to a great many concepts, some of which you will agree with, some of which you won't, but they'll give your thinking depth, and will allow you not only to make your decisions within some sort of conceptual framework beyond "taxes are theft" or "it's a Chinese hoax". It might even, on occasion, reveal where perhaps your dearly held views may be inadequate, or perhaps even outright wrong.
I have a peculiar personal interest in constitutional theory, though my greatest familiarity is with the US and Westminster constitutions. It's a bizarre little hobby, and one that for years served no other purpose than to occupy endless hours reading the Federalist Papers and Bagehot. In my current position as a managing director for a company that does a great deal of government contract work, it actually turns out that having some knowledge even in fields that had little or nothing to do with my original occupation (programming and network administration) has proven quite valuable in understanding how governments work at the fundamental level, and at the administrative level.
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"An actual education introduces you to a great many concepts,"
But the problem here is that you are confusing what we have as being an "actual education" instead of little money milling indoctrination camps.
Ayn Rand said some stupid things and some insightful things, just like very other "great thinker" of current and past ages. What people do not realize is that Einstein too was a normal person like the rest of us. He was just in a position and cared deeply about something and did not let a bunch of pratt
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That only tells me that your advice on anything is worth less than the dirt you are made of.
[...]
The greatest of fools are the ones that think they are not fools and judge others to be fools!
Out of interest do you consider yourself to be a fool? I only ask because you clearly think the GP is one.
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Re:Complex Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know how these things work in the US, but let's assume it's similar to my country.
Think of the worst Federal employee you've ever had to deal with. Now ask yourself: would you have preferred this person to be less educated?
Of course, an uncharitable cynic would point out that less educated public servants are more compliant public servants, and some administrations would benefit more from that than others.
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Which would you rather deal with:
1) A new grad with a Master's degree in International Relations
2) A 20 year experienced professional that's been top rated at their job for the entire time, but has no college degree
Sane people would take person #2 every time. The government, however, will hire person #1 and fire #2 for no reason other than the existence of a degree.
This is not hypothetical, by the way, I saw it happen. An experienced and extremely competent employee was "released" for "failing to meet jo
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I would rather a team where person 1 works for person 2.
Expertise = episteme + techne
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B. There's nothing stopping you from getting a degree or two, as well.
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A. Yes they do. Production precedes consumption
Then why produce anything?
If there's no consumption, there's no reason to produce. You don't just make widgets and hope someone will decide to buy one someday. At least not for very long.
This kind of overly-simplistic thinking is an example of why more people need more education.
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Consumption by other producers, also known as "trade".
Except consumption can't exist in your overly-simplistic model yet. So even other producers can't consume.
Totally different than taxation, also known as "force".
Since you are getting help from millions of other people (property rights don't protect themselves, for example), then you really should take a moment to realize just how stupid this position is.
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Re:Complex Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)
Or are you truly suggesting that I can now talk down to everyone employed by any place that I make purchases from because they're living off of my work?
If we're to limit the calculation to just work performed for pay, then it's doubly obscene to claim that the government worker is living off of your work.
They are an employee of us all.
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Then if you wish them as an employee, you pay them.
You do wish them as an employee- or at least to the extent at which our Constitutionally chartered government grants you a voice in the matter.
You are not a sovereign citizen, I am sorry.
You can certainly "talk down" to anyone you like, including places you make purchases from. Most businesses will attempt to rectify whatever the issue was, because, indeed, they know where their money comes from.
That depends who's out of line. .
If you're out of line, they'll throw you out of the store, because they know their money comes from a lot more than just you
If the employee is, they'll be let go.
This is no different than the government.
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Yes, I am a sovereign citizen.
No, you aren't. Claiming a thing does not make it so. Or do you wish to redefine the word sovereign for this debate?
My presence in this jurisdiction is only temporary.
Not remotely relevant. You are in it now, as such, you are subject to its rules.
They can throw me out of the store, yes. That is their "jurisdiction". They cannot throw me in jail.
That depends.
Have you threatened the employee? Jail.
Have you taken something from the store, and refused to pay for it? Jail.
Not so different than the things that can land you in jail regarding government.
Can the store itself throw you in jail? Of course not- they call law enforcement.
But can the DOL throw yo
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I thought it the best way to gently point out your tunnel vision was holding you back from anything approaching intellectual honesty. I can see I was wrong. Carry on.
We'll see who's standing at the end of your unarguable timeline.
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My side of the debate vs. yours? On top.
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That's certainly true, but I'm thinking on average.
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Advanced education supports sophisticated decision making, and that sophisticated decision making is required to effectively run a large organization. Believing the opposite goes against the development of nations, armies, business, even tribes themselves. Following your 'gut' gets you and everybody else killed very quickly. Believing otherwise is stupid.
I hope you're not talking about MBA's.
Degrees get in the way (Score:5, Insightful)
Loyalty to Our Dear Leader is the only qualification that matters!
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But I have a degree in Perfect Calls.
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Traitors to the country and to the constitution need not apply. Especially when the motivation is just a few cheap political points.
Bullshit detectors (Score:2)
That is clearly an impediment to working in Trump's government.
It's not surprising that he wants to dumb down his workforce.
If college educated people lean socialist... (Score:3)
People get evaluated for their abilty to think well, for post-secondary entrance and post-secondary graduation.
So these better thinkers (across a wide swath of disciplines of study), you know, the A and B students in high school, probably have a more valid opinion on topic X (e.g. governance) than the average or th
Yeah, we need more dumb people in government (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, we need more dumb people in government fer sure. Look how well it's worked so far. Senior advisors who can't pass a security check, cabinet members with literally ZERO experience in the departments they've been chosen to run, etc etc etc. Yeah, hiring morons has been a huge success.
And, for the record, I speak as someone who doesn't have a college degree, but but who recognizes that requiring a certain supposed level of education for a given job isn't an unreasonable standard in some (possibly a lot) of situations.
With that said, a degree is by no means any indicator of knowledge, skill, or competence, but it does set a not-unreasonable bar for applicants.
Build in a sensible exception clause or waiver process for people who have the skills but not the degree and I'd be fine with it.
Re: Yeah, we need more dumb people in government (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you talking about the Obama administration?
Oh yeah, I forgot that Obama hired his kids and in-laws as Senior Advisors even though they couldn't pass a background check.
And silly me- I forgot all about Obama appointing nitwits like Betsy DeVoss and Ben Carson to positions they couldn't pronounce, let alone administer. Thanks for reminding me!
Oh wait, that was Trump. Never mind, carry on, Comrade!
Re: Yeah, we need more dumb people in government (Score:5, Funny)
Just out of curiosity, what kind of a head injury do you have?
Re: Yeah, we need more dumb people in government (Score:4, Informative)
You know you've lost when all you can do is throw weak ad hom attacks and talk about molesting children.
Thanks for playing, better luck next time!
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Are these the best people who would have naturally risen to this place on their own?
You mean like appointing a failed handbag designer like Ivanaka to the position of Senior Advisor? You mean like that kind of 'rising naturally'?
What should the numbers be? (Score:3)
The age gap is most acute for the youngest workers, with only 7.3% of the federal workforce younger than age 30 compared to 23% of private sector workers.
Should we be comparing to Google with a median age of 29 or IBM with a median age of 38? If not either, why would the average be a relevant target?
"Over-reliance on degrees can be a barrier to entry" to federal jobs, the White House argued.
This statement is a contentless truism. Over-* on anything is bad, but the key part is deciding where the threshold for over-* is. Requiring graduate degrees may be an unnecessary overkill for some jobs. But the onus is on the person claiming over-* to justify the proposed lower threshold.
Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.
<sarcasm> In an administration that discounts scientific expertise in favor of sycophantism, it's obvious that college degrees are irrelevant. </sarcasm> But, seriously, would this be an issue if the President's base weren't centered in the non-college educated demographic?
Maybe there's another cause? (Score:2)
Like maybe the federal workforce is older because the majority of the departments except for the military have had hiring freezes for the last 20 years because of Republican austerity policies leading to frozen budgets...then throw in the shutdowns that have made government work unattractive even before considering out unpopular "the boss" currently is among the general population, and you have explanations for the current situation that don't require looking at college degrees at all.
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Remember the shutdowns are great for non-security employees that can afford to do without the paycheck for that week/month. Because at the end of the shutdown, they get pay for all the days they miss and don't actually have to work them.
Pretending to stand for stupid people (Score:2)
My Dad worked in the government with no degree (Score:2, Interesting)
He got a GED from the Navy, and took a few college courses, but no degree. Caveat: he was part of the "greatest generation". They read Shakespeare... in 8th grade. Also, completing high school was much more frequently seen as optional back then. College degrees were for the elites.
So. If we actually start challenging kids in high school again, we wouldn't need a bachelors degree to be the entry ticket.
I did not see this in 30 years as a Civil Servant (Score:2)
I was a Civil Servant in the US Army for 30 years. I had My BS when I was hired. Many of my colleagues used Government money to pay for a masters degree and used Government time and resources to get a Masters Degree. That may have squed the data. Later in my career more High School grads where hired ad where taking classes online toward a higher degree.
Donor's Kids Aren't Qualified (Score:2)
And Johnny and Suzy just have to get a job at the White House or they'll just be humiliated on Facebook!
Side effect of outsourcing to private sector (Score:2)
The Federal Government tends to outsource repetitive and routine work to the private sector, which is what Republicans typically ask for. But what's left over after doing that is more managerial, analytical, and oversight work, which has higher requirements.
Credentialism (Score:4, Insightful)
It would be great, if degrees actually meant something. From some schools, they do. Others...not so much. I've known some really smart people who didn't have any sort of degree, and people with PhDs who were truly dumb.
Requiring degrees is just an attempt to filter out the truly unqualified. But it's easy enough to find a diploma mill and basically buy yourself a degree.
George Carlin quote (Score:2)
They want obedient workers; people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and dumb enough to passively accept it.
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College is not vocational school. If you are looking at it like that, skipping college was probably the right move.
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College is not vocational school.
There may be secondary benefits to be gained from the experience of college but I don't know a single person who would pay the tuition costs for those benefits alone. The only way to justify the cost to the average family is the promise of increased career prospects. Otherwise the very notion is completely insane.
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People should definitely work some hard nose grinding jobs before they do college.
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I actually think a falconry school would be really cool. And you can probably take that as an elective or club in some class.
I don't know anyone who (a) spent 5 or 6 years in college, (b) took a class on intersectionality or 3rd wave feminism except by choice to get a degree, and (c) classes in college take place in labs, and numerous other non-dark room places.
Lastly, college can teach you how to read with retention. Such as when I said that college is not a vocational school and that people who want th
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Untrue, I have listened to that trash from my family for 2 decades.
I am the wealthiest member of my family now.
Not having a College degree does have "some" limits, but not nearly as many as you falsely conflate. I am a high school dropout with no college and I am in the 95% of earners. Most people that say I need my head straightened out tend to be significantly more ignorant and poorer than myself.
I learned a lesson from my poor family a long time ago. Poor people give bad advice, because if they knew w
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Going to college is not going to vocational school. The point is to get an education, not job training.
If you're unable to grasp this, then it's a really good thing you didn't go.
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Going to college is not going to vocational school. The point is to get an education, not job training.
If you're unable to grasp this, then it's a really good thing you didn't go.
90% of people coming out of colleges do not have a meaningful education. They typically can't read or write English worth a damn, don't understand the fundamental theorem of calculus, and have no practical skills. Many of them can't cook, can't drive, and can't interact with society unless it's through an app.
We've got a full generation of anxious, anti-social, skilless, idiots. But hey - they went to college!!!
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And people who actually went to college can recognize you pulled those statistics out of your ass so that you could rant about the kids on your lawn.
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While a college degree is not needed for many fields, the lack of one has been an issue for a few friends of mine who dropped out. They consistently get lower paying, higher turnover positions compared to similar friends with degrees. There are some personality issues at play as well, but the degree is the biggest differentiator.
The republican goal is to reduce the federal workforce. There are good and bad aspects of doing this. Reducing mean pay is an easy path towards this goal, and not valuing degree
the NFL and NBA really need non collage minors (Score:2)
the NFL and NBA really need non collage minors
everything salad on the educational system (Score:2)
Interesting.
It's hard to tell whether your confusion stems more from Trump University or The Apprentice.
When my wife took her master's degree in Environmental Management (after a previous degree in Conservation Biology) the program barely taught any environmental knowledge at all. Instead, they took some environmental theme and assigned enormous group projects on extremely short deadlines (maybe not more than
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Hmm...so you'll be expecting your surgeon, who will be operating close to your heart, to be a high school graduate. And that airplane you flew in, it should be designed by former garbage truck personnel. The flu vaccine you just got, that could have been designed by Joe's Bait and Body Shop. The car you drive could have been designed by anyone. The software glitches that caused the x-ray machine to fry your testicles, anyone can design those, and did because the company building it thought farming the softw
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"Who else would hire people with worthless CompTIA credentials"
A lot of companies.
Sure they are a joke, but businesses are only looking for two things. An excuse to keep your wages suppressed and also a bare minimum of something that helps them believe that they are not hiring a total moron. Naturally there is no 100% guarantee but it does improve the odds.
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The vast majority of people will not learn anything in college that they could not have learned better and faster in the real world/on the job.
That's a cool sound-bite, but you know what? It's just not true.
Yes, it's true in some cases but not the "vast majority" of cases, not by a long shot.
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What evidence do you have that sitting passively in a dark auditorium with hundreds of other faceless people listening to a lesbian professor rant about microaggressions for 5 years is the best way to learn them all?
Well, the evidence certainly shows that it wasn't the right choice for you. Maybe you should have gone into engineering instead of a woo-based bullshit career.
FWIW, I don't care what kind of sex my professor likes. What he or she or it teaches is what counts. Frankly, anyone that takes the kinds of course you seem to have taken was already doomed from the start.
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listening to a lesbian professor
Why do you care so much about (a) the genitals of your professor and (b) who they want to use their genitals with?
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listening to a lesbian professor rant about microaggressions
Why do you care so much about (a) the genitals of your professor and (b) who they want to use their genitals with?
Well, if the professor is going to care so much about my genitals and who I use it with why shouldn't I return the favour?
In a perfect world they wouldn't care about my genitals and who I use them with, so that I wouldn't feel inclined to return the favour.
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Well, if the professor is going to care so much about my genitals and who I use it with why shouldn't I return the favour?
Nice rationalisation, but I'm not buying it. I don't care about people's genitals which is why I put effort into making sure such things are not a factor in decisions. People taking an interest in mine... well, that's not going to start making me care. Clearly you do care and are just looking for an excuse to be honest about your proclivities.
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Well, if the professor is going to care so much about my genitals and who I use it with why shouldn't I return the favour?
Nice rationalisation, but I'm not buying it. I don't care about people's genitals which is why I put effort into making sure such things are not a factor in decisions. People taking an interest in mine... well, that's not going to start making me care. Clearly you do care and are just looking for an excuse to be honest about your proclivities.
You care enough to vomit your puritannical opinion on someone else caring. You care more than most - most people only take an interest when some other busybody takes an interest in them, you take an interest even when no one is taking an interest in you.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/grab-that-record-how-trumps-high-school-transcript-was-hidden/2019/03/05/8815b7b8-3c61-11e9-aaae-69364b2ed137_story.html [washingtonpost.com]
and ...
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It costs you $0.32 a year. You bitch about it a bunch. That's surely worth $0.32/year
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