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Education Businesses Government United States

Federal Workforce Too Reliant On College Degrees, Says Trump Administration (techtarget.com) 235

dcblogs writes: In the federal government, approximately 30% of the 2.1 million civilian employees have a master's degree or above. That's compared to about 15% at large firms in the private sector, according to the White House's 2021 budget. The federal workforce is also older than the private sector. The average age of federal workers is 46, versus 42 for all others. The age gap is most acute for the youngest workers, with only 7.3% of the federal workforce younger than age 30 compared to 23% of private sector workers. "Over-reliance on degrees can be a barrier to entry" to federal jobs, the White House argued. Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.
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Federal Workforce Too Reliant On College Degrees, Says Trump Administration

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  • by CrimsonAvenger ( 580665 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @05:53PM (#59721450)

    Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.

    But, it ought to be noted that economists and attorneys do NOT make up the majority of Federal workers. It's possible to be too reliant on advanced degrees, and still concede that SOME jobs require advanced degrees....

    • by oddtodd ( 125924 )

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right to ignore it"

      sorry, couldn't resist...

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by SirAstral ( 1349985 )

        "I will defend to the death"

        When people say this, you know they are full of shit.

        People fundamentally do not know what that means, because if they were serious they would already be dead, shot down by the police as they stood up for someones rights, because there are already numerous folks needing this deadly defense right his moment.

        I might stand by my principles until death, but I will not be defending someones rights until I die, because there is not a single fuck here willing to do the same in return.

        • by oddtodd ( 125924 )

          I believe a WHOOSH is in order here.

          • No, I got your meaning, I just choose to ignore it and add my 2 cents along a different path. Sorry if that took some wind out of your sails.

        • People fundamentally do not know what that means, because if they were serious they would already be dead, shot down by the police as they stood up for someones rights, because there are already numerous folks needing this deadly defense right his moment.

          In the US? AFAIK we're the only country that actually holds this overarching philosophy. No point in running to China to take a bullet for a protester, we'd all be dead by now. The rest of the first world may not shoot you for it, but they'll certainly haul you off to jail for an off-colored joke [wikipedia.org].

          Sure, some jackoff will probably quote numbers from the world press freedom index, but that entire site is BS because it downranks the US for things that it won't downrank other countries for (for example, a journa

        • by bjwest ( 14070 )

          "I will defend to the death"

          When people say this, you know they are full of shit.

          It's pretty obvious you never served in the military. Those of us who have have literally sworn an oath to just that, and many have done that very thing. It's true, Joe Blow the fat ass couch-sitting football expert who says that is full of shit, but there are many out here, current and former military, who still hold true to their Oath of Enlistment/Office.

    • by naturjunge ( 1279888 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:15PM (#59721530)
      I'm not sure the present administration would concede that SOME jobs require advanced degrees. And to be honest what is the point of paying for employees with advanced degrees when expert input is ignored, or indeed actively discouraged/disdained, as part of decision making and policy development.
      • by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:21PM (#59721554) Journal

        Well, to be fair, Federal Attorneys still need to be a member of the bar. The new requirement appears to be that they disregard any ethics or constitutional law courses they may have taken. Connections with shady Eastern European operatives certainly is welcome, if not an outright boon.

      • "And to be honest what is the point of paying for employees with advanced degrees when expert input is ignored, or indeed actively discouraged/disdained, as part of decision making and policy development."

        Bingo, but that is not the point of the "Business" use of the Education system.

        Businesses requiring college degrees for things is a wage suppressor mechanism. It also serves as justification for hiring cheap foreign labor in place of higher salary demanding locals because they can make up absurd job and e

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by spun ( 1352 )

          Wait, so your answer to out of control capitalism pillaging the middle class is... more out of control capitalism?

          I've got news for you bud, government is just... us. Just citizens. Sure, we can outsource the functions to others. We can even forget we are the masters and let others master us. But in a democracy, especially a constitutional republic like ours, government is what we choose to make it. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

          The people who hate government are the ones who wou

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:29PM (#59721594) Homepage Journal

      Of course, it should also be noted that the older you are, the more likely you are to have an advanced degree, both because those take time to obtain and because younger people these days are less likely to see the value in getting a degree beyond a bachelor's degree.

      Thus, if the federal workforce is older, you would automatically expect there to be more advanced degrees, regardless of whether they are required for the job. So comparing the number of employees with advanced degrees tells you little.

      Also, a lot of low-end jobs (food services, janitorial services, etc.) get contracted out by the federal government to private companies, which shifts those folks from the federal bucket to the private bucket.

      Also, there may be differences in the average education level of the people who are interested in taking federal government jobs.

      Also, I wouldn't be surprised if some federal agencies have funds available to help their employees go back to school for additional education. If so, that would further skew the statistics, because outside of big companies, that's pretty rare in industry.

      So the right question to ask is not how many employees have those degrees, but rather what percentage of job listings include advanced degrees as a requirement.

      • I think the bigger issue is to get some raises you need to get an advanced degree. I doubt very much that there is as high a percentage of masters for people hired-on.

        As for the age delta... well, why would you want to work for the Feds straight out of college? You want money / prestige at first, and then you “settle” for job security.

        • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          It is all about being able to validate the reason for your hiring. In government, yep, those degrees are meant to be proof of qualification together with experience. In private, well, nepotism and who you know is all the qualification you need, more often than is appropriate.

          In government post employment, you must be able to validate why they were selected and why another citizen was rejected, in private, not so much, if fact very often not at all.

          So want people without qualification in government, prove th

          • I'm amused you think this is how everything works. Reality is quite different.

            If you think your plans to get past a missile tracking system haven't already been thought of by dozens of experts, analyzed and taken into account, then incorporated into the system, you obviously haven't seen what the new generation of missiles can do. Sure, throwing burning bits of stuff in front of missiles might have worked 40 years ago. They called them "flares". Most new systems ignore flares and would ignore your exp
    • The low-degree-requirement jobs are generally done by contractors.

    • Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.

      But, it ought to be noted that economists and attorneys do NOT make up the majority of Federal workers. It's possible to be too reliant on advanced degrees, and still concede that SOME jobs require advanced degrees....

      Of course, you could get rid of all the economists with no negative impact, and probably a positive one.

      • by gtall ( 79522 )

        Yep, tell you what, get your IRA management company to get rid of its economists, see how that works out for you.

        • by radl33t ( 900691 )
          Excellent idea! Even lower fees on my low cost market funds
        • I have a hard time disagreeing with this, but I kind of think that as you increase the education of experts within a system you often just increase the complexity of a system faster than you actually improve it.

    • Considering how many research labs the government operates, I wonder how much this skews the results.

    • by Hodr ( 219920 )

      Most federal jobs are either degreed positions, or fields populated by retired military (program management, logistics, etc.) And retired military often have advanced degrees because they are allowed time and funding during their service to pursue those degrees and are rewarded after achieving them.

      A corporation likely employes their own stock boys, point of sales clerks, janitorial staff, food preparation, grounds keepers, drivers, etc. These positions are all contracted out in most federal facilities. T

    • No one is requiring a plumber or custodian working at the Pentagon to have a law degree. My paranoia is this Trump trying to put unqualified people into positions that for the moment are barred by degree qualifications. It seems that in the judicial branch, the administration is intent on nominating unqualified people. For example, this administration has tried to nominate a judge who had never tried a case in either criminal or civil courts, federal or state levels, and whose entire legal experience had be
  • Complex Decisions (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jzanu ( 668651 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @05:57PM (#59721470)
    Advanced education supports sophisticated decision making, and that sophisticated decision making is required to effectively run a large organization. Believing the opposite goes against the development of nations, armies, business, even tribes themselves. Following your 'gut' gets you and everybody else killed very quickly. Believing otherwise is stupid.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      Advanced education supports sophisticated decision making

      I'm curious. Did you manage to type that with a straight face?

      • by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:28PM (#59721586) Journal

        Yes, I'm sure he did, because otherwise you're left with people who read a book sometime long ago by someone like Ayn Rand or some other word-vomiting self-important ideologically-driven nut job, and decided they'd learned all they need to know about anything. An actual education introduces you to a great many concepts, some of which you will agree with, some of which you won't, but they'll give your thinking depth, and will allow you not only to make your decisions within some sort of conceptual framework beyond "taxes are theft" or "it's a Chinese hoax". It might even, on occasion, reveal where perhaps your dearly held views may be inadequate, or perhaps even outright wrong.

        I have a peculiar personal interest in constitutional theory, though my greatest familiarity is with the US and Westminster constitutions. It's a bizarre little hobby, and one that for years served no other purpose than to occupy endless hours reading the Federalist Papers and Bagehot. In my current position as a managing director for a company that does a great deal of government contract work, it actually turns out that having some knowledge even in fields that had little or nothing to do with my original occupation (programming and network administration) has proven quite valuable in understanding how governments work at the fundamental level, and at the administrative level.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by SirAstral ( 1349985 )

          "An actual education introduces you to a great many concepts,"

          But the problem here is that you are confusing what we have as being an "actual education" instead of little money milling indoctrination camps.

          Ayn Rand said some stupid things and some insightful things, just like very other "great thinker" of current and past ages. What people do not realize is that Einstein too was a normal person like the rest of us. He was just in a position and cared deeply about something and did not let a bunch of pratt

          • That only tells me that your advice on anything is worth less than the dirt you are made of.
            [...]
            The greatest of fools are the ones that think they are not fools and judge others to be fools!

            Out of interest do you consider yourself to be a fool? I only ask because you clearly think the GP is one.

          • by radl33t ( 900691 )
            yeah, yeah evil liberal universities. care to contaminate anything else with your partisan cancer?
    • by Pseudonym ( 62607 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:03PM (#59721484)

      I don't know how these things work in the US, but let's assume it's similar to my country.

      Think of the worst Federal employee you've ever had to deal with. Now ask yourself: would you have preferred this person to be less educated?

      Of course, an uncharitable cynic would point out that less educated public servants are more compliant public servants, and some administrations would benefit more from that than others.

      • Which would you rather deal with:
        1) A new grad with a Master's degree in International Relations
        2) A 20 year experienced professional that's been top rated at their job for the entire time, but has no college degree

        Sane people would take person #2 every time. The government, however, will hire person #1 and fire #2 for no reason other than the existence of a degree.
        This is not hypothetical, by the way, I saw it happen. An experienced and extremely competent employee was "released" for "failing to meet jo

    • Advanced education supports sophisticated decision making, and that sophisticated decision making is required to effectively run a large organization. Believing the opposite goes against the development of nations, armies, business, even tribes themselves. Following your 'gut' gets you and everybody else killed very quickly. Believing otherwise is stupid.

      I hope you're not talking about MBA's.

  • by Firedog ( 230345 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @06:10PM (#59721504)

    Loyalty to Our Dear Leader is the only qualification that matters!

  • People with degrees are one notch better equipped to have a reliable bullshit detector.

    That is clearly an impediment to working in Trump's government.

    It's not surprising that he wants to dumb down his workforce.
  • by JustAnotherOldGuy ( 4145623 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @07:00PM (#59721726) Journal

    Yeah, we need more dumb people in government fer sure. Look how well it's worked so far. Senior advisors who can't pass a security check, cabinet members with literally ZERO experience in the departments they've been chosen to run, etc etc etc. Yeah, hiring morons has been a huge success.

    And, for the record, I speak as someone who doesn't have a college degree, but but who recognizes that requiring a certain supposed level of education for a given job isn't an unreasonable standard in some (possibly a lot) of situations.

    With that said, a degree is by no means any indicator of knowledge, skill, or competence, but it does set a not-unreasonable bar for applicants.

    Build in a sensible exception clause or waiver process for people who have the skills but not the degree and I'd be fine with it.

  • by larryjoe ( 135075 ) on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @07:07PM (#59721746)

    The age gap is most acute for the youngest workers, with only 7.3% of the federal workforce younger than age 30 compared to 23% of private sector workers.

    Should we be comparing to Google with a median age of 29 or IBM with a median age of 38? If not either, why would the average be a relevant target?

    "Over-reliance on degrees can be a barrier to entry" to federal jobs, the White House argued.

    This statement is a contentless truism. Over-* on anything is bad, but the key part is deciding where the threshold for over-* is. Requiring graduate degrees may be an unnecessary overkill for some jobs. But the onus is on the person claiming over-* to justify the proposed lower threshold.

    Others disagree and say that many government jobs, such as economists and attorneys, require advanced degrees.

    <sarcasm> In an administration that discounts scientific expertise in favor of sycophantism, it's obvious that college degrees are irrelevant. </sarcasm> But, seriously, would this be an issue if the President's base weren't centered in the non-college educated demographic?

  • Like maybe the federal workforce is older because the majority of the departments except for the military have had hiring freezes for the last 20 years because of Republican austerity policies leading to frozen budgets...then throw in the shutdowns that have made government work unattractive even before considering out unpopular "the boss" currently is among the general population, and you have explanations for the current situation that don't require looking at college degrees at all.

    • .then throw in the shutdowns that have made government work unattractive

      Remember the shutdowns are great for non-security employees that can afford to do without the paycheck for that week/month. Because at the end of the shutdown, they get pay for all the days they miss and don't actually have to work them.

  • It's been working so far... why stop?
  • by Anonymous Coward

    He got a GED from the Navy, and took a few college courses, but no degree. Caveat: he was part of the "greatest generation". They read Shakespeare... in 8th grade. Also, completing high school was much more frequently seen as optional back then. College degrees were for the elites.

    So. If we actually start challenging kids in high school again, we wouldn't need a bachelors degree to be the entry ticket.

  • I was a Civil Servant in the US Army for 30 years. I had My BS when I was hired. Many of my colleagues used Government money to pay for a masters degree and used Government time and resources to get a Masters Degree. That may have squed the data. Later in my career more High School grads where hired ad where taking classes online toward a higher degree.

  • And Johnny and Suzy just have to get a job at the White House or they'll just be humiliated on Facebook!

  • [The administration] also points out that a large number of federal employees -- relative to the private sector -- have advanced degrees, which it suggests might be a consequence of unnecessary job requirements.

    The Federal Government tends to outsource repetitive and routine work to the private sector, which is what Republicans typically ask for. But what's left over after doing that is more managerial, analytical, and oversight work, which has higher requirements.

  • Credentialism (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bradley13 ( 1118935 ) on Thursday February 13, 2020 @06:59AM (#59723228) Homepage

    It would be great, if degrees actually meant something. From some schools, they do. Others...not so much. I've known some really smart people who didn't have any sort of degree, and people with PhDs who were truly dumb.

    Requiring degrees is just an attempt to filter out the truly unqualified. But it's easy enough to find a diploma mill and basically buy yourself a degree.

  • Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. That is against their interests.
    They want obedient workers; people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and dumb enough to passively accept it.

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