Google Redraws the Borders On Maps Depending On Who's Looking (washingtonpost.com) 75
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Washington Post: For more than 70 years, India and Pakistan have waged sporadic and deadly skirmishes over control of the mountainous region of Kashmir. Tens of thousands have died in the conflict, including three just this month. Both sides claim the Himalayan outpost as their own, but web surfers in India could be forgiven for thinking the dispute is all but settled: The borders on Google's online maps there display Kashmir as fully under Indian control. Elsewhere, users see the region's snaking outlines as a dotted line, acknowledging the dispute. Google's corporate mission is "to organize the world's information," but it also bends it to its will. From Argentina to the U.K. to Iran, the world's borders look different depending on where you're viewing them from. That's because Google -- and other online mapmakers -- simply change them.
[...]
Unlike mapping geographical features, sketching the contours of towns or countries is ultimately a human construct. So, Google consults with local governments and other official bodies to help make a decision about where to draw its lines, according to people familiar with the matter. And it refers to historical maps, news events and atlases, these people said. But changes are also made with little fanfare and can be done immediately, while physical maps are beholden to printing schedules. When it comes to contested borders, people in different countries often see different things. Take the body of water between Japan and the Korean Peninsula. To almost all it is known as the Sea of Japan, but for Google Maps users in South Korea it's listed as the East Sea. More than 4,000 miles away, the waterway separating Iran from Saudi Arabia may be either the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf, depending on who's looking online. And the line in Western Sahara marking the northern border with Morocco disappears for Moroccans seeking it out on the Web -- along with the region's name altogether. The sparsely populated northwest Africa region is disputed between Morocco, which seized it in 1975, and the indigenous Sahrawi. One of Google's contract employees said they "are often told to alter maps with no reason given and that their changes take effect almost immediately," the report says. "That typically includes relatively minor adjustments like widening a path in a park or removing mentions of landmarks like a statue or traffic circle. But, these people said, Google has a special team employees refer to as 'the disputed region team' that addresses more prickly matters..."
"The company also responds to feedback, such as once changing the name of Native American tribal land to 'nation' from 'reservation,'" notes The Washington Post. "Google's maps can also be revised by a band of enthusiasts known as Local Guides who can submit suggestions for alterations, which often are implemented automatically. [...] In some cases, local laws dictate how Google and others must represent maps to avoid censure, as is the case in China or Russia, according to people familiar with the matter."
[...]
Unlike mapping geographical features, sketching the contours of towns or countries is ultimately a human construct. So, Google consults with local governments and other official bodies to help make a decision about where to draw its lines, according to people familiar with the matter. And it refers to historical maps, news events and atlases, these people said. But changes are also made with little fanfare and can be done immediately, while physical maps are beholden to printing schedules. When it comes to contested borders, people in different countries often see different things. Take the body of water between Japan and the Korean Peninsula. To almost all it is known as the Sea of Japan, but for Google Maps users in South Korea it's listed as the East Sea. More than 4,000 miles away, the waterway separating Iran from Saudi Arabia may be either the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf, depending on who's looking online. And the line in Western Sahara marking the northern border with Morocco disappears for Moroccans seeking it out on the Web -- along with the region's name altogether. The sparsely populated northwest Africa region is disputed between Morocco, which seized it in 1975, and the indigenous Sahrawi. One of Google's contract employees said they "are often told to alter maps with no reason given and that their changes take effect almost immediately," the report says. "That typically includes relatively minor adjustments like widening a path in a park or removing mentions of landmarks like a statue or traffic circle. But, these people said, Google has a special team employees refer to as 'the disputed region team' that addresses more prickly matters..."
"The company also responds to feedback, such as once changing the name of Native American tribal land to 'nation' from 'reservation,'" notes The Washington Post. "Google's maps can also be revised by a band of enthusiasts known as Local Guides who can submit suggestions for alterations, which often are implemented automatically. [...] In some cases, local laws dictate how Google and others must represent maps to avoid censure, as is the case in China or Russia, according to people familiar with the matter."
This makes them useless (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: This makes them useless (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This makes them useless (Score:5, Insightful)
This kind of fluctuating touchy-feely relativity is also a major part of their search engine. Depending on who is logged in etc. I can search for the same thing and get completely different results. This is not what I want. Consistency is valued above all.
You are misunderstanding the article. They don't change the map contents based on your interests, or mood, or the phase of the moon. They change the contents based on where you're located. If, for example, you're in China you see Taiwan as clearly part of China (well, or at least that's the case if you can actually get to Google Maps at all from China). This isn't for "touchy-feely relativity", it's to avoid being hammered by governments and other groups for taking sides in geopolitical disputes. And it's not in any way unique to Google, or even to online maps: Physical maps have always reflected the political ideas of the regions where they were produced/sold. If Rand-McNally sold road atlases in India and Pakistan, you can bet that the Indian and Pakistani products would show Kashmir differently. Google is just doing the same thing, for the same reason.
I'm surprised anyone thinks this is news. Not only has it been the case that Google Maps adjusts itself in this way pretty much since its inception, it's blindingly obvious that it has to, the same way printers of paper maps have always had to do. I suppose it's possible that some people are so unaware of geopolitics as to fail to realize that there are ongoing, and very heated, disputes over territory. If you're one of those, you should educate yourself.
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
I don't think you understand!
"Western" corporations are supposed to be doing their part to spread Imperial Liberalism across the world! How dare Google make a buck by making a censored search engine just for China, don't they know they're supposed to be spreading Liberalism by any means necessary? Google is supposed to be literally fighting the CCP to dismantle the Chinese government, not trying to make a buck by following the laws of the land where they operate.
These mega-corps are supposed to be blunt i
Re: (Score:2)
Score: -9223372036854775808 , sarcasm detector broken.
Re: (Score:2)
You have to use Bing for maps in China, Google's are blocked. However for some reason Google Translate seems to work.
Re: (Score:1)
Google search results change all the time. Always have. They change the ranking algorithm semi-frequently.
Re: (Score:1)
In the days of printed maps, disputed areas were indicated by drawing both borders and then crosshatching the area between them. Though there have always been mismatches in what names different societies give mappable features, until now there has been no way of rendering this on a map. Now that we can do this, why not redraw borders for different viewers? Call it geographic social justice.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
More commonly, in the days of printed maps, you would simply see different borders if you bought a map in China vs India vs Pakistan etc. Just like now.
Another common tactic is ambiguity. For example, my wall map shows Taiwan with the same color as China. However, both Taipei and Beijing as marked as capital cities.
Re:This makes them useless (Score:5, Informative)
This kind of fluctuating touchy-feely relativity is also a major part of their search engine. Depending on who is logged in etc. I can search for the same thing and get completely different results. This is not what I want. Consistency is valued above all.
I hate to disappoint you - consistency may be illegal.
Drawing the map of the world with Crimea part of Russia is illegal in Ukraine. The opposite is illegal in Russia.
Drawing the map of the world with Abkhazia independent is illegal in Georgia. The opposite is illegal in Abkhazia.
Drawing the map of the world with Kosovo part of Serbia is illegal in Kosovo (and probably Albania - need to check).
Drawing the world with Macedonia having its rightful name has been illegal in Greece for decades.
Drawing the world with the South Kuril islands part of Russia in Japan. The two counties which are disputed between Estonia and Russia. A whole raft of nooks and crannies along the Slovenian-Croatian border.
What else.... Oh, Tibet. How could I forget. There is the option of course of not doing business in ANY of these places. The problem is - if you make that decision the shareholders will remove your hide.
Re:This makes them useless (Score:4)
Re: (Score:2)
You can either boycott and impose sanctions on the non-democratic countries entirely (has been really effective at causing regime change in Cuba, Iran, North Korea). Or you can go ahead and have business and cultural r
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
What many people fail to realize is that the majority of the world's population lives under some form of authoritative government [wikipedia.org].
I believe you intended "authoritarian government", not "authoritative".
Re: (Score:3)
I wonder how many of those places outlaw the truth.
All of them. The whole point of those laws is to try and force their truth onto people.
Re: (Score:3)
Drawing the world with Macedonia having its rightful name has been illegal in Greece for decades.
That one is now settled [wikipedia.org], the Republic of Macedonia is now the Republic of North Macedonia while Greece continues to have a region called Macedonia and both parliaments have ratified the agreement. While it barely passed I think it's the kind of compromise no side is going to tear up later, it's just too petty. It's not a dispute about territory or resources, just that Greece felt their Macedonia was the only Macedonia.
Re: (Score:2)
Right, and who cares, US companies should act as they are the US, other companies can act in accordance with their countries, and no one is going to do jack shit one way or the others.
Re: (Score:2)
Like, hey I want to plan a road trip to this area that's completely under my country's control. Except it isn't, and I should be made aware. Personally, I'd think some sort of "disputed region" layer would be more useful.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure your turn by turn directions will tell you that you can't get there. There are lots of travel restrictions and dangers in non-disputed areas too. Restricted cities in Russia, Hong Kong and Wuhan, Mecca, bombing ranges and army bases in the USA, terrorist areas, etc. If you drive over the Kashmir LOC into a hail of bullets just because it looks like India on your map, then you deserve your Darwin Award.
Re: (Score:2)
Yours sincerely, someone who ended up in Republica Srpska when driving from Croatia to Monte Negro. A lovely courtesy by the GPS trying to navigate around a traffic jam via a frozen conflict zone (with f*cking minefields still in places).
It tried to route us via Kosovo 2 days later as a topper too. Thankfully, this time I was double-checking the route using a map and a pencil.
To make the fun complete, BOTH Sygic and Google maps thought that driving via a war zone to avoid
Re: (Score:2)
'fluctuating touchy-feely relativity'
It's a double edged sword. If you don't care to see location and user based results of a query turn it off.
Most users find it helpful. For instance, dominant interpretations for queries are location and user based. And they're permissive. Mobile users tend to find it helpful.
If I'm in Pocatello and search for Saffron it's obvious I'm seeking information about the spice. If I'm in Philadelphia using that query 9 times out of 10 a user is seeking a well known local resta
Re: (Score:3)
Ok, so you want Tiananmen Square results removed for yourself too then?
Re: (Score:1, Interesting)
It's a difficulty in history books and scientific research as well as maps. Many governments and local governmental bodies forbid information that clashes with their political mandates. Publishing historical data about the Nazi regime during WWII in Germany is extremely tricky. Publishing grade-school textbooks that discuss evolution in Florida is very dificult. Publishing historical and political analyses of the Quran or the Bible, of Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" or of Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto", is
Re: This makes them useless (Score:2)
Thais happens all the time. Printed maps that show Kashmir as part of India are banned in Pakistan.
Windows 95 originally had a featured where you could click an atlas to select your time zone, except the 3 pixels where Kashmir was corresponded to the wrong country. Someoneâ(TM)s embassy complained and threatened to ban the product on that basis, so the feature was removed.
Re: (Score:3)
Consistency is valued above all.
You are getting consistent results. Just like if you went to get a map in Pakistan they would all show the same borders. Just if you went to get a map in China it would not show Taiwan. You go back to those places and you get the same map consistently.
There is no true consistency in the geopolitical space. There has never in our history been "one" map. ... except maybe the very first map, but I'm sure some caveman straight away disagreed and drew another.
Re: (Score:2)
"Touchy-feely"? More like legally mandated by those countries. If you want to do business in South Korea you had better make sure your maps say "East Sea" and I bet every other mapping service that does business there is the same.
Aside from the legal aspect they wouldn't sell much Google Maps API access to SK companies if it didn't say East Sea.
And whose side do you pick? Is is Islas Malvinas or the Falkland Islands? And how do you handle language differences like that, do you have to translate Islas Malvin
Re: This makes them useless (Score:2)
No, it makes them match reality. How do you propose maps lable Israeli-occupied Syria (otherwise know as the Golan Heights)? There is no right answer.
Re: (Score:3)
Well, one could simply use the actual reality of physically-manifested sovereignty, as in, "If you commit a crime there, whose police and courts do you have to deal with?"
Thus, the Golan Heights are Israeli; Gaza is ruled by Hamas; what India claims is Kashmir is split between China, India, and Pakistan; Taiwan is independent; Northern Cyprus is its own country; and so on.
It would make a lot of people upset, because you'd be ignoring their cherished fictions, but it cuts through a lot of crap.
Re: This makes them useless (Score:2)
But then you are delivering a map which almost the entire world, including the U.N. believes is fundamentally wrong. The problem with relying on who is able to enforce law is that you are ceding geography to warlords who claim territory through violence. That approach could largely redraw the map of central Africa into tiny fiefdoms.
Re: (Score:2)
If you think reality is wrong, the correct move is to change reality, not spread lies about it.
The actual geography is already actually controlled by the people who seized it through violence; I'm not "ceding" anything.
And yes, much of Africa should be redrawn to reflect reality.
Good (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
There is no truth these days (Score:3)
Per this article, when De_Boswachter uses Google Maps, it just shows a globe with "DE_BOSWACHTER" written across it.
And by extension, when Trump uses Google Maps, it just shows a globe with "MINE" written across it.
In more serious epistemological terms, there is confusion about several types of reality here. The geography should reflect a single reality, literally the reality of the facts on the ground. Labels for bits of the geography represent human conventions and sometimes even laws and politics, which is where this discussion has mostly muddled about. I'm actually more interested in the linguistic aspects, which is
Re: (Score:2)
And by extension, when Trump uses Google Maps, it just shows a globe with "MINE" written across it.
Trump? That's fucking hilarious, surely you mean "The West" because nothing else makes any sense. Wait, you don't actually believe all the "spreading democracy" crap, do you?
Re: There is no truth these days (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Are we allowed to see maps with the time adjusted for after we finish melting Antarctica?
Just go watch Waterworld. You'll get a good enough idea!
My (Score:2)
>"Unlike mapping geographical features, sketching the contours of towns or countries is ultimately a human construct. So, Google consults with local governments and other official bodies to help make a decision about where to draw its lines"
"My truth"
Re: My (Score:3)
Well, when did the US become an independent nation and cease to be a rebelling colony according to the British crown? Dealing with different truths is nothing new and even calling it disputed territory will be seen as taking a position.
Re: My (Score:4, Informative)
Treaty of Paris [wikipedia.org] in 1783.
Re: (Score:2)
Labels are like that, individual truths. Your label here is markdavis, while the label on your drivers license might be completely different.
Illegal maps FTW. It's an India thing (Score:5, Informative)
It's probably not limited to India and Pakistan either.
Re:Illegal maps FTW. It's an India thing (Score:4, Insightful)
In China it is illegal to print any map but those approved by the Mapping Bureau. These always include the Nine-Dash Line, a dashed line going waaaay south of China and claiming a bunch of islands in the South China Sea.
If you EVER see the nine-dash line in ANY Western media, it means that they are commie tools. Useful idiots. Like Hollywood or the NBA. They will value money more than loyalty to our own country and will kowtow to China. Of course if hypothetical America insisted on reciprocal treatment, they would be first in line to #resist.
Re: Illegal maps FTW. It's an India thing (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Cute! (Score:2)
Everybody sees that they have achieved world dominance.
Great way to calm the nerves of idiots.
Obv— It's just another echo in the echo cham (Score:2)
Google's intention is to show us the world through a lens that makes it optimally emotionally rewarding so we keep coming back to Google. People keep talking about the echo chamber effect of their news article selection algorithm like it's an accident rather than the goal. Right.
Re: (Score:2)
''Google's intention is''
To sell ads. How hard is it for people to understand that? All the value added services come at a cost that is paid by ads. The service is quite clear about it and the market show's they've done quite a good job of it.
There are other indexes available and similar services available. For some reason people choose to use theirs, kinda says something right.
Re: (Score:2)
Did I say it was google's *only* intention? They design their services that way so people continually go back and use them becuase it gets them information they use to sell ads. Maybe you should beef up on your reading comprehension skills if you're going to keep that arrogrant tone.
Re: (Score:2)
This has to do with what is legal in India/Pakistan rather than what Google's intention is. There is an echo chamber, but not one created by Google in this case. Google plays along because it is illegal not to participate in the Indian Governments echo chamber on Kashmir.
Re: (Score:3)
Google's intention is to show us the world through a lens that makes it optimally emotionally rewarding so we keep coming back to Google. People keep talking about the echo chamber effect of their news article selection algorithm like it's an accident rather than the goal. Right.
Googles intention is to follow the laws in the countries it operates in.
(Unless the fines are small enough to write off as the cost of doing business *cough* EU)
Re: (Score:2)
Remember when we had all of those patents which were "do this thing that many people do, but ON THE INTERNET", and the idiots got all impressed and the smart people rolled their eyes?
Now we have stories which are "this thing that all companies have done forever is still happening, but GOOGLE IS DOING IT", and all of the idiots are happily proclaiming their hatred of Google and of history and facts, while all of the smart people are rolling their eyes.
The hilarious thing is that there are a lot of valid reas
They're just following orders (Score:3)
India has made it illegal to depict anything other than the government's stand on international borders. Google has to abide by this if they are to do business in India.
You can't really blame anyone here.
Re: (Score:3)
The word for this is Gaslighting (Score:2)
Calvinball (Score:1)
Why not go all the way and just fuck with the maps any time they want?
Gee, I think Massachusetts would look great next to California on Monday, and maybe we can move New York City to Brasil on Tuesday!
Wow seriously, fuck them and they better hope they don't get somebody killed by pulling these stupid stunts. Maybe it's time to go back to maps loaded off of a DVD,raw GPS, and offline databases for location search :\ This is also why I would not move everything to "The Cloud". Some douchebag in the
Re: Calvinball (Score:2)
> hope they don't get somebody killed by pulling these stupid stunts.
I think you'll find that any such border is very, very well-marked, physically defined, and actively patrolled & monitored in real life... at least, in any context where it's likely to matter to someone attempting to cross it.
The closest your fears might come is if someone entered "Liberland", got injured, called "112" on his phone, then was informed (depending upon which country's call center took the call) that they couldn't/would
Total perspective vortex (Score:2)
When I look at Google maps, I see lots of streets named after me. When I do street-view, I see statues raised in my honor. I'd tell you more, but I'm about to hit the road and check out my palace. I didn't even know I owned it!
Stop China’s Map Warfare (Score:3)
Worse, the Chinese government is requiring American companies printing maps or manufacturing globes in Chinese factories to use China's "official" map on products that will be exported to the US.
More info here [youtu.be]
Change.org petition [change.org]
Then Google Are Lying (Score:2)
Its probably a stretch to get from lines on a map to "evil", but Google have a responsibility to be truthful.
A much better approach would have been to have three areas marked on their map of the world: "India", "Pakistan" and "Disputed Territory". This would be more accurate and it would remove the appearance of Google taking sides.
The tactic they have chosen - to lie to both countries - is cowardly and disingenu
Re: (Score:2)
Displaying "Disputed Territory" as you suggest could get Google fined, get Google employees arrested, and/or get Google services blocked nationwide.
Why not? Borders come in many shades of gray (Score:2)
The West Bank, for example, is considered by many to rightfully belong to the Palestinians. But who actually controls this area? Unquestionably, Israel does, and has for decades. The same is true for many disputed territories.
Why should Google get into the middle of territorial disputes? What do they have to gain by taking a stand with one side or the other? In many cases, it's difficult to even tell who is right and who is wrong.