UK Willing To Admit Nearly 3 Million From Hong Kong If China Adopts Security Law (npr.org) 283
schwit1 shares news that UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said he would be willing to allow more than 2.8 million people from Hong Kong to live and work in the country if China implements a controversial proposed national security law on the former British colony. The law could take effect as soon as this month, and would expand mainland China's control over Hong Kong. NPR reports: Johnson wrote in a column that appeared in The Times of London that the law would infringe on the "one country, two systems" agreement China reached with Britain in 1997 when Britain ceded control of the territory. He added that the law "would curtail [Hong Kong's] freedoms and dramatically erode its autonomy."
If China were to implement the law, Johnson wrote, Britain is prepared to take in around 350,000 people from Hong Kong who already have British National (Overseas) passports and 2.5 million who would be eligible to apply for them. He also noted that the U.K. would be making "one of the biggest changes in our visa system in history." It would allow Hong Kongers with these passports to come to the U.K. for a renewable period of a year. The current system allows them to come without a visa for up to six months. The potential new system would include a right to work and, potentially, a path to citizenship. Johnson did not elaborate in the column about how the 2.5 million people eligible for a British passport would be able to attain one, or how arrivals from Hong Kong would attain citizenship. "Many people in Hong Kong fear that their way of life -- which China pledged to uphold -- is under threat," Johnson wrote. "If China proceeds to justify their fears, then Britain could not in good conscience shrug our shoulders and walk away... I still hope that China will remember that responsibilities go hand in glove with strength and leadership."
The law would authorize mainland China to prevent "secession, subversion, terrorism and foreign interference" in the semi-autonomous city. "One part that has got people worried is the suggestion that China could set up its own institutions in Hong Kong responsible for security," reports the BBC.
"Hong Kong was handed back to China from British control in 1997, but under a unique agreement -- a mini-constitution called the Basic Law and a so-called 'one country, two systems' principle," the report adds. "They are supposed to protect certain freedoms for Hong Kong: freedom of assembly and speech, an independent judiciary and some democratic rights -- freedoms that no other part of mainland China has." People in Hong Kong believe the law will result in a loss of these freedoms and could see Beijing punish people for criticizing the country, as happens in mainland China.
If China were to implement the law, Johnson wrote, Britain is prepared to take in around 350,000 people from Hong Kong who already have British National (Overseas) passports and 2.5 million who would be eligible to apply for them. He also noted that the U.K. would be making "one of the biggest changes in our visa system in history." It would allow Hong Kongers with these passports to come to the U.K. for a renewable period of a year. The current system allows them to come without a visa for up to six months. The potential new system would include a right to work and, potentially, a path to citizenship. Johnson did not elaborate in the column about how the 2.5 million people eligible for a British passport would be able to attain one, or how arrivals from Hong Kong would attain citizenship. "Many people in Hong Kong fear that their way of life -- which China pledged to uphold -- is under threat," Johnson wrote. "If China proceeds to justify their fears, then Britain could not in good conscience shrug our shoulders and walk away... I still hope that China will remember that responsibilities go hand in glove with strength and leadership."
The law would authorize mainland China to prevent "secession, subversion, terrorism and foreign interference" in the semi-autonomous city. "One part that has got people worried is the suggestion that China could set up its own institutions in Hong Kong responsible for security," reports the BBC.
"Hong Kong was handed back to China from British control in 1997, but under a unique agreement -- a mini-constitution called the Basic Law and a so-called 'one country, two systems' principle," the report adds. "They are supposed to protect certain freedoms for Hong Kong: freedom of assembly and speech, an independent judiciary and some democratic rights -- freedoms that no other part of mainland China has." People in Hong Kong believe the law will result in a loss of these freedoms and could see Beijing punish people for criticizing the country, as happens in mainland China.
Considering the Windrush scandal (Score:3, Insightful)
That would be interesting (Score:2)
Re:That would be interesting (Score:5, Funny)
That would be a wonton destruction of Britain.
*bah-dum-dah*
Thank you! I'll be here all week.
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It's a pipedream because we're overcrowded, we don't have enough houses as it is.
Unless ultra high density can be built rapidly, which at least they are used to, the only real option is massive displacement.
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I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:2)
The UK ceded HK to China - as they were supposed to - with express instructions on how to handle their new property.
Yeah, right: if you give someone a walkman forbidding them to play any Genesis tape with it, whatcha gonna do when they finally do it anyway?
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Remind me, how did World War One start?
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It's true that Xi isn't Mao. Xi has more power in his hands right now than Mao had at his peak.
This presents a problem. When you have this much power in your hands, you're also the one who's going to get blamed for every adversity. That's why China is pissing off the world with ridiculously abrasive propaganda about "Italy/US starting the pandemic and bringing it to China" and so on. CCP knows that they're at risk of losing the Heavenly Mandate if things go on as they do, and that's the point at which Chine
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I note that the tarrifs though having a chilling effect on trade are being charged on American businesses and consumers.
Re:I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Add in high inflation we're talking 8-10%, well above even the "official" claimed GDP)
Where are you getting your 8-10% inflation number? I just did a quick scan and nobody I found is quoting numbers that high. Most are close to the IMF's estimate of 3%. Sure, nobody trusts China's own published numbers but that inflation number seems out of range.
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Family. Most of my family is Shanghainese, and they are constantly complaining that things like pork, eggs, rice, power, clothes are up 10-15% over what they were last year. Grocery store receipts, rent receipts that I've kept over several trips over the last year or two - what used to cost 50 RMB is now pushing 60 RMB or more.
You want to know why no one is reporting it? Because they use official Government numbers - from a Government that denies that a massacre happened in Tiananmen square, that they'
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Re:I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:5, Interesting)
One child policy has been in place for about three decades, and recent repealing of it did nothing effective. Families are still having only one child, and while it's easy to abort, it's a whole lot harder to force women to carry a child for nine months and then not drown it in a nearest creek.
China's demographics are nothing short of catastrophic. I'm not sure if there's any nation on the planet that's aging faster than them right now. Add to this the fact that there's no social security for the elderly to speak of other than "male child must support parents" legislation, and consumption base that is already under severe strain due to one child policy is crippled further.
Which seems to be exactly why China is moving to alienate the world, purge the foreigners that are sticking around and stoking the "us vs the world" mentality in state propaganda with far more fervour than ever since Deng's tenure. They're locking the country down, step by step.
Accelerating HK's absorption into mainland appears to be a part of this process, and it's telling us just how much of an urgency CCP leadership appears to think there is. They played their cards very well for almost a century to get HK back, like with assuring fait accompli in UN with the relevant treaties, which all but forced UK to cede it without granting HK independence. And now, they're suddenly willing to just brutally oppress everyone, break treaties and take effective destruction of most valuable aspect of HK, the finance sector. Just to accelerate the grab by 20-ish years. It makes no sense, unless they're in a massive hurry to lock down the country.
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I think Lynnwood mixed up a declining population with a declining amount of people able to work. They do have a problem with an aging population.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com]
China's population is ageing. By 2050 more than a quarter of the population will be over 65 years old and younger generations face an unprecedented burden of care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re:I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's just one [nytimes.com] source. It's been flat for a while, but starting to fall again. China's now at the point where one 20-something grandkid needs to support 4 grandparents. Social Security in China is crap - it's like 600 RMB per month, not even enough for rent in a shithole room somewhere. It's the duty of the grandkids to take care of the grandparents (since, in Chinese culture, it's almost always the grandparents who raise the grandkids while the parents work). Factor in inflation - and you're in a world of hurt.
And even though the one-child policy is now lifted, most young families I know are not going to have more than 1 kid - too expensive, they can't afford it. They have eight "adult kids" to take care of (the grandparents of both mom and dad), and adding a few of their own is just untenable. The collapse of the family and structure will make Japan's stagnation look like Easy Street.
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IF you believe the official numbers from China - you're already lost. Their banks are incredibly underwater with bad loans, their GDP is probably 65% what is claimed, and imports still drive a massive amount of their economy. They have a real-estate bubble much bigger than we had, and a rapidly collapsing population with a massive explosion in the aged pulling meager (and ever-shrinking) retirement benefits. Add in high inflation (we're talking 8-10%, well above even the "official" claimed GDP), and China's in a very precarious position.
You make some interesting points, but then again after the Iraq intelligence fiasco and the events and shenanigans perpetrated by the US financial system leading up to the 2008 financial crisis I don't trust anything that comes out of the US financial system, the US government or hyperbolic analysis of China's economy coming from ultra-conservatvie think tanks in Washington any farther than I can throw them. After the events of the last 20 years these entities have to come up with some pretty extraordinary
Re: I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:2)
You can not look at the financials for Chinese companies.
What more did you need to know about US? The information is there.
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Re:I give you this. Now you do this with it. (Score:5, Informative)
The UK ceded HK to China - as they were supposed to
The government they made the original deal with is currently located in Taiwan, not Beijing!
Mad Props (Score:2)
Even though England has not been in control for some time, it is great that they are willing to ackowndge they built up a home that many in Hong Kong liked - and that as it falls, they have some duty to the people there who for a short time were able to taste freedom the rest of China does not.
I am especially sad to see Hong Kong go, I've been there a few times and it is an amazing city. It was the perfect buffer zone of commerce between China and the west, talk about killing the golden goose!
If many Hong
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In the majority the poorest would be going and mainlanders would pay corrupt Hong Kong officials for papers to allow migration to the UK. The government of China will be more than happy to ramp that 2 million up to 20 million and see how the UK government copes. Hong Kong as the gateway to China had a function that drove it's economy, it no longer is the gateway to China, has a too high population for it's resources production capacity and economy and the economy will continue to shrink. Unemployment and sh
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Won't work that way. From what was being announce, the threat is that they plan on extending the offer to those who was born in Hong Kong before the handover. There are only about 3 odd millions of them. i.e. all these people were once British subjects.
The problem is that many of these people are loyal to the CCP. Freedom-loving Hongkongers born after the handover would be unfairly excluded - but then that's the best identification they have got.
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Re: Mad Props (Score:2)
England did not rule Hong Kong, and England is not acknowledging a duty of responsibility. England isnâ(TM)t even analogous to a US state due to the nature of the highly centralised unitary government system in the UK.
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More realistically, they want to reinforce London City by grabbing as much of HK's finance centre as possible in its inevitable emigration. They're going to be competing with others for it, everyone from Singapore to New York.
HK had good spirit (Score:2)
Hong Kong is/was known for many things; innovation was never one of them.
I disagree, I was in some tech conferences in HK and knew some people in startups there.
Yeah they had some elements of old China there, but that was part of the charm. There was a lot of advanced tech there but more importantly, a spirit of building new things (not just copying).
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It's confirmed folks, BAReFO0t is an alien, possibly a human eating alien.
Re: Mad Props (Score:2)
It's not necessarily racist to limit the number of people coming from a country (especially one who's not a strong ally) that can easily overwhelm your society demographically. It's hard to say one way or the other in this case.
Is UK racist for not accepting Chinese immigrants or is China racist for only having Han emigrants?
There might be a hint in the fact that only one of those is a "race" by most definitions.
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What do you mean "if"? (Score:4, Informative)
What a joke (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What a joke (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: What a joke (Score:5, Insightful)
So they can bitch about how shitty it is without fear of reprisal.
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Why the fuck would a Hongkonger want to move to a country where they would not be welcomed by the public
Because of freedom of speech.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What a joke (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the rest of the world had those things done earlier than you guys, so I wouldn't exactly use that argument.
women's vote: around 1918 in most of Europe, 1920 in the USA
slavery: most of Europe abolished this in the middle ages, like the 16th and 17th century
gay rights: here the US is in-line with most of Europe, depending on which state/country you look at.
Re:What a joke (Score:5, Informative)
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Serfdom is not quite the same as slavery.
Re: What a joke (Score:2)
Sorry, what slavery you talk about in Eastern Europe?
The Ottoman empire? Yes, in my country we call that period 'the slavery' although westerners call us islamophobs and say it was serfdom.
If you meant that, please specify that the slave masters were brown muslims and the slaves were white christians.
For a bonus points Google the etymology of the word slave.
true but with a footnote (Score:2)
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Honestly the US' First Amendment is viewed by the world as a wrong-headed extremist position.
I've never heard anyone in Europe, outside demagogue politicians and a very few extremists express such an opinion.
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I said the world, not Europe. It's just like you whites to assume every conversation is about yourselves.
You know, I see a lot of people complaining that certain comments are "racist", when they really aren't. Usually, they are more "prejudiced" or "biased" or even "culturalist". But, you actually nailed racism with that line.
Since you brought it up, yes the First Amendment is considered a crazy extremist position. It allows literal Nazis to speak - something Europe does not allow. Free speech is what resulted in Trump in the White House.
Darn. And to think we could've had Hilary!
The overwhelming number of countries in the world think that the US version of free speech is not only stupid, but outright dangerous. There's a reason they don't allow it.
Well, then they are idiots.
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I think you underestimate how much HK residents (particularly young ones) idolize the West, and the UK in particular.
HK is a small place and a lot of people would like to get out of there to pursue better opportunities.
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Why the fuck would a Hongkonger want to move to a country where they would not be welcomed by the public (ya heard of Brexit, right?),
Last time I checked, Hong Kong wasn't in the EU and wasn't trying to overturn democracy in order to protect private company interests. So, basically not at all connected to Brexit.
However, wherever they go the truth is they'll face racism and trouble of the "they're taking our jobs/welfare/women" kind from the locals. That's just bloody people.
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Why the fuck would a Hongkonger want to move to a country where they would not be welcomed by the public (ya heard of Brexit, right?), and right in the middle of a pandemic, to one of the worst affected countries.
Brexit isn't a white supremacy movement nor is it a "Wall to Mexico". It's Britain leaving the EU after 45 years of policing by EU technocrats, which gave us costs and little benefits, with other EU countries receiving money, and while of course WWII is long in the past and Europe having been more than restored. People simply feel a need to go back to the days of Britain being primarily a nation, which is open to the world, and less one that is locked in and controlled by Europe. Nor is Britain a ship, we h
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I don't know that but I do (indirectly) know several people from Hong Kong that have recently moved to the UK. Now that may be a coincidence, but I don't expect it to be. Unfortunately, recent official numbers do not appear to be available.
Also, they're not welcome in Hong Kong either; like in all parts of China, only "loyal citizens" are "welcome"...
How will they vote? (Score:2)
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Immigrants in the UK overwhelmingly vote Labour.
Why is that? Brexit? Odd since so many immigrants to the UK are extremely conservative.
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Re: How will they vote? (Score:5, Insightful)
The House of Lords and the head of the executive branch of government cannot be voted out, whereas the elected politicians (council of ministers and European Parliament) could remove the European Commission. The head of state is still a hereditary position in the UK. Who's more democratic? More likely Englanders used to bullying the smaller regions of the UK didn't like having less influence in an otherwise democratic system.
Re: How will they vote? (Score:5, Insightful)
And now they are ruled by the very definition of an unelected bureaucrat - Dominic Cummings. The irony is delicious.
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Thanks for pointing out my mistake :) When I referred to the "executive branch" I was thinking more along the lines of the American system where this is president, not the UK system where it's the PM etc. I.e. referring to the queen, who signs in every law. The Amercians saw the flaws in the system with the blurring of the lines between the executive and legislative branches of government 250 years ago and tried to fix it. So no, you can't vote out the queen.
Re:How will they vote? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well nothing like countering snotty condescension with outright lies.
Honestly I think you are more condescending because you believe people are stupid enough to fall for your bullshit and you act on that.
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Brexit is the turkeys voting for Christmas.Did you not watch BBC's coverage? At all?
Not only did the racist gammons vote against themselves, but they handed Putin a big victory on a silver platter. Russians were all over the place telling the working class to vote for Brexit. The UK is going to be devastated by Brexit and these too-stupid-to-live morons are going to lose their jobs.
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Since when are the gammons a race?
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Since when did racial insults need to be words used to define a race?
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How can "gammon" be a racial insults when the gammons themselves are defined as a group of people who have certain political convictions?
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Don't be a fucking idiot. The term 'gammon' is a reference to the skin colour of the person being attacked.
That makes it a racial attack. That makes the person using it a racist.
Don't be racist.
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The term 'gammon' is a reference to a flushed face of angry people. Stop being one.
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You really think that only the white people can get flushed faces?
Besides, right back at you, I distinctly remember you stating that the celts are too stupid to rule themselves and hence should be invaded right after they break off from the UK. Who is the racist cunt now, gammon?
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Oh, so now black people gain a pink complexion when angry? You'd be fucking hilarious if you weren't such a racist cunt.
But remind me, because I don't recall, when did I state that Celts are too stupid to rule themselves?
I did sardonically suggest invading an independent Scotland but it wasn't a racist attack against my fellow Scots.
Whereas you're making repeated racist attacks here, because you're a racist cunt. Stop being racist.
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populations (Score:3)
Population of HK ~= 7.5M (https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/hong-kong-population/). Population of UK ~= 68M (https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/united-kingdom-population/). So 2.8M is 37% of HK's population, and 4% of the UK's population.
I think this is doable.
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Indeed. Although there are some fun suggestions such as giving them the Isle of Sheppey and letting them turn it into an economic powerhouse.
I don't think those are serious though.
This is not going to end well (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This is not going to end well (Score:5, Insightful)
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So the idiot that fought for Brexit arguing that it was necessary to leave the EU so the UK could control its borders and reduce immigration is now about to open the floodgates to 3 million people from Hong Kong?
The UK was open to many hundreds of millions of EU citizens, not that many chose to come to the UK. Thinking most people will give up their home, jobs, friends and family that don't qualify to go half-way across the world to start over in a foreign country simply because the border is open... yeah that's not how it works. Not unless China turns it into an actual warzone.
Irony is strong (Score:2)
One of the claims for Brexit was that it would turn the UK into a tax haven for wealth. Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest populations in the world per capita (2nd behind Switzerland), far higher than the UK (11th).
I wonder what all those working class voters who supported Boris Johnson and Brexit will make of this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Brexiteers don't realize it but they actually voted for more non-EU immigration. More people from outside Europe, with fewer cultural ties to us (which seems to be a big deal to them).
In addition some countries are demanding freedom of movement in exchange for trade deals, e.g. Pakistan.
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In the coronavirus deaths, yes.
3 million (Score:4, Insightful)
He also did not elaborate on where these 3 million people would live. Let me just put things in perspective:
Government introduced right-to-buy where people could buy council property off of the council at far below market rate, back in the 80's.
Planning permission bureaucrats say no to a lot of new housing, can't build anything too tall in most of London, wouldn't look nice.
Government then said councils can't use the money from those properties sold under 'right-to-buy' to build new council housing.
Government allows ten million more people to flood in to the country. ( https://www.google.co.uk/searc... [google.co.uk] - )
But hey, shouldn't complain because they scrapped plans that would force developers to actually develop reasonably good quality properties rather than just throw up shit boxes.
Hands tied and generally being useless ****s, councils did not build more housing. Waiting lists for councils tens of thousands long closed to most new applicants decades ago (60-year old schizophrenic black gay homeless women with AIDs can still apply, but they'll have to give proof of address first to send the application to).
So now with a major housing crisis, where the **** does Boris think these people would live on this small island nation that isn't food self-sufficient already. Ram-packed into squalid housing ready for the next virus out-break that the gov't won't deal with until it's too late again?
At least the Hong-Kongers could teach stupid Brits how to wear masks and fight for democracy.
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Government allows ten million more people to flood in to the country.
Government "allowed" it? What were they going to do, forced sterilization? Only about half that was immigration, the rest was people already here having children.
I'm with you on the housing crisis though. A big part of the problem is crap planning laws and too much protection of the "green belt". The island is more than big enough, we just need to get on with building. Only about 8% of the country is urbanized, 92% is too much green belt and not enough houses.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-... [bbc.co.uk]
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Is it? What I've been hearing for ages is that western countries aren't increasing their population other than via immigration. Wikipedia confirms it, birth rate under 2.0 since 1974 so the increase in population is in small part due to people not dying as much and in large part due to more than quarter of a million people entering the country every year.
And:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I think building on green belt sounds like a bad
Wow - that would change the UK (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it great that they are offering a home to these people - especially if they are also doing the necessary logistical planning to bring them over.
I wonder, though, if they have considered the cultural implications. Look at the US, and the idiotic efforts they make to prevent Asians from dominating all the top universities. The stereotypical Asian culture of valuing education and working hard - it pays off. If you eliminated hidden racial preferences, MIT would be mostly Asian.
If the UK imports 3 million people from Hong Kong? This would have a huge impact on the British labour market. Your average British worker will struggle to keep up.
I lived in the UK for a few years, and in many areas of work the British do have a problem. I saw this mostly in the trades, where the average competence, dedication and quality of work is...abysmal. Many general contractors make an effort to hire non-UK workers, and it's not to save money. Frankly, this was part of the reason that many blue-collar workers supported Brexit: make it harder for EU workers to come in and take their jobs. Imagine what might happen, when the competition can't be shut out by Brexit.
tl;dr: Importing people from Hong Kong would need to be carefully managed to limit the inevitable resentment from current British residents, who would find themselves out-competed by their Hong Kong brethren.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Would help Brexit (Score:3)
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Legacy (Score:2)
I know it's hard to understand, but some countries have this thing called 'responsibility'. And, rarely, leaders have this thing called 'honour'. Britain feels a sense of obligation to Hong Kong. Other Commonwealth countries should join in too.
Coast (Score:2)
Australia should let them set up New Hong Kong on an unused stretch of coast. It will be a separate country, but will make an annual payment that's not particularly high, for 50 or 100 years.
Wow! (Score:2)
They're OK with 3 million Chinese but the Polish plumber and the Lithuanian gardener is too much?
Johnson is not Britain! (Score:4, Insightful)
Johnson again presents his ideas as the opinion of Britain. If you disagree, you cannot be British, right?
I actually doubt his intention to actually do this. This is yet another 'dead cat' flung on the table to distract us from the virus, which in turn is distracting from Hard Brexit which he hopes to manage in a few weeks, to distract us from selling off the NHS. But it might work.
How many do you want? (Score:2)
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Oh wait a second I live on the west coast.
Bloody Welshman!
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Re: Good (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Good (Score:2)
Re: lol (Score:2)
UK didn't seem to take affront to European immigration. French, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, etc. were all welcome.
They were NOT fine with Poles and Greeks and Albanians.
Italians and Spaniards were sometimes OK, too.
I'm pretty sure your acceptance is British culture is most prominently tied to how closely your people are related to the royal family.
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It's almost as though people don't like unfettered immigration but nonetheless recognise their obligations.
I haven't heard a single person that wanted to leave the EU say that we shouldn't allow the people from Hong Kong to come to the UK. Which amusingly seems to be upsetting all the people that wanted to pretend Brexit was due to racism.