Trump To Expand Coronavirus-Related Immigration Restrictions (axios.com) 284
The Trump administration will ban entry into the U.S. for foreigners on certain temporary work visas -- including high-skilled H-1B visas -- through the end of the year, senior administration officials told reporters Monday afternoon. From a report: The highly-anticipated immigration restrictions expand on President Trump's earlier coronavirus-related immigration ban introduced in late April -- which was also extended through the end of the year. Trump has leveraged emergency powers and economic concern from the coronavirus to slowly shut down large parts of the immigration system -- even as he urges states to reopen. The administration also announced Monday that it is working toward permanent regulatory reforms that would crack down on H-1B visas and work permits for asylum seekers. The official said these steps could open up 525,000 U.S. jobs. In addition to H-1B visas often relied on by big U.S. tech companies, the restrictions on entry will also affect visas for H-1B spouses, non-agriculture worker H-2Bs visas, short-term workers on J-1 exchange visas, and L visas, which allow companies to transfer employees working overseas to U.S. offices.
Further reading: Trump plan to ban H1-B will hurt Indian techies.
Further reading: Trump plan to ban H1-B will hurt Indian techies.
Unfortunately he did something right here... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to say it, but I agree with this one. So few H-1Bs actually go to "exceptional, world class" genius level talent that it might as well be a rounding error. All the offshore outsourcers get the visas and use them to bring in an on-site person for way below the market rate. The minimum salary is $60K if I remember correctly, which is poverty level in Silicon Valley or NY. This is how you get "DBAs" with multiple Ph.Ds who can't do simple administration tasks. It's just an excuse to have a second-class workforce that the tech companies can exploit because they're desperate or the outsourcers can use to line their pockets.
I think the letter of the law is fine...let people come who are bright, credentialled appropriately and will enrich the companies they work for. The spirit of the law is the thing I've got the problem with...FAANGs shouldn't be able to get away with paying practically nothing for developers, and "outsource everything" companies shouldn't be sent the B-Team to fill the only jobs their vendor doesn't do offshore. Just end the loopholes and I'd be fine with it. I'm mid-career and see what has happened in the 2000s/2010s to entry-level talent. All the IT people ended up going to coder bootcamp and becoming JavaScript monkeys because they saw that the outsourcers were just flooding the market with cheap labor. As a result we have a huge hole in the infrastructure side that I feel still needs to be filled.
Unfortunately I definitely see companies using COVID as an excuse to offshore any remaining IT jobs they have, so it makes sense to deny the Cognizants and Accentures and IBMs of the world a way to juice their contract margins and give them an exploitable workforce. Also unfortrunately, I see this is an obvious election-year move that will convince some people to give Trump another 4 years...which I can't see ending well for normal average Americans.
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Sponsorship for citizenships are still ontrack.
Exceptional people are still being fast tracked (which is a good thing).
I'm aware of more then one case for the company I work for that are ongoing. The people being sponsored are very good and absolutely deserve it. They will be a credit to our community.
This is H1-B1 which is entirely a different matter.
If companies could offshore those jobs (Score:2, Insightful)
What makes H1-Bs desirable is that they're already trained and they're trained for cheap in their home country.
And yeah, I don't trust Trump. He could've done this 4 years ago (and indeed Candidate Trump promised to). All he had to do is direct his agencies to enforce the law as
Re:If companies could offshore those jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
And yeah, I don't trust Trump. He could've done this 4 years ago (and indeed Candidate Trump promised to). All he had to do is direct his agencies to enforce the law as it is written. This seems like election year red meat. And that means as soon as he's safely in his second term it's back to business as usual.
So, Trump promised to do it, now he's doing it, and you think it's just a "trick" to get re-elected? I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, every day politicians do things in an effort to get re-elected, the only politicians that don't are the ones that are either in their last term-limited term, or exiting politics. Trump still has one more term as President available to him, and he wants it. Only Trump gets criticized for following thru on campaign promises.
Given that he had 4 years to do it (Score:3, Insightful)
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you can't, you can't fool me again...
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I think the problem people are having is that he promised to do it 4 years ago.
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FAANGs shouldn't be able to get away with paying practically nothing for developers
?? They don't. Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Microsoft pay extraordinarily high salaries to their developers. I'm sure there are companies who pay low rates to their H1-B developer employees, but they're not the FAANG companies.
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So few H-1Bs actually go to "exceptional, world class" genius level talent that it might as well be a rounding error.
Citation Required. No I'm serious. I'm genuinely curious as to what the breakdown is. Reading this site I conclude 100% of H1Bs are Indian call centre workers. My own experience is 100% of H1Bs are engineers who are absolute experts in their field brought in by companies with really fat pay checks (a company I worked with shut down and most of my colleagues ended up in the states on H1Bs earning stupidly high dollars.
Truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
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Re:Unfortunately he did something right here... (Score:5, Interesting)
I hate to say it, but I agree with this one. So few H-1Bs actually go to "exceptional, world class" genius level talent that it might as well be a rounding error.
What I know is this is going to screw my team. A person who just joined us is a top tier talent -- PhD in CS, focused on cryptographic security, writes great code and crazy smart, it's amazing how quickly she's gotten up to speed on our very complex environment -- and I think this may just block her. Right now she's on a student visa (she just completed her PhD a few months ago) and is in the process of getting an H1-B.
All the offshore outsourcers get the visas and use them to bring in an on-site person for way below the market rate.
The person I'm talking about is a regular full-time hire by Google, complete with nice annual bonus and equity awards, and the immigration team is already planning how to quickly get her a green card and out of "indentured servitude". I'm not going to quote numbers but as her manager I can see what she's being paid, and it's the same thing anyone else with her background would get. There's no cost savings here, she was hired because people with her background and ability are just plain rare and you have to hire globally to be able to find enough of them. The US doesn't produce enough -- which is not a criticism of the US, we only have 4% of the world's population, we've got to expect that a high percentage of the world's smart people are from the 96%.
You might have more of those home grown (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because state & federal funding go pulled. My education was _heavily_ subsidized. But why was mine so heavily subsidized and my kid's wasn't?
Simple, the mega-corps figured out they could just import as much labor as they wanted to and not have to pay for all that training.
There's nothing all that amazin
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Also, practically speaking, it is useful because the US thrives when we compete fully and have access to worldwide talent. It is a problem for those in the US would think they have an inherent right to work, above those who may be more talented, more educated, and harder working, but it is good for the economy because we can get the best out of a world wide pool.
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That's the thing. H1-B should have been sharply limited a long time ago. There should never be a situation where someone trains their H1-B replacement (if they were good enough to actually be an H1-B as defined in the law, they would need at most a bit of orientation).
Of course, Trump said he'd do this 4 years ago, and it's only happening just now.
Closing the barn door after the horses left (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a little late to be worrying about immigrants bringing in their Covid-19. This is entirely just an excuse to push his anti-immigration agenda.
Seen the photos of the latest Trump rally? Trump isn't even concerned enough with Covid-19 to require his supporters to wear masks. And before someone makes the false equivalence of comparing it to the BLM protests, keep in mind that protests don't have a centralized authority which can tell people there's a pandemic on and maybe it's not such a great idea to go looting today. Presidential campaigns do.
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In addition, pursuant to Proclamation 10014, the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Homeland Security reviewed nonimmigrant programs and found that the present admission of workers within several nonimmigrant visa categories also poses a risk of displacing and disadvantaging United States workers during the current recovery.
American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers.
Source [whitehouse.gov]
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It's a matter of applying some logic and being coherent. Why it's a good idea to prevent potentially infected people from getting into the country? Because they'd interact with other people and spread the disease around. It's perfectly logical and reasonable to try to prevent that.
Now, notice that you have infected people in the country already. Applying the same logic in a coherent way would require to try to prevent those people from interacting with other people and spread the disease around further: tha
Re:Closing the barn door after the horses left (Score:5, Interesting)
Cognitive dissonance reconciliation isn't a thing....
We need immigration to fill all the jobs....
Everyone must stay home to avoid the pandemic and screw the jobs....
We must protest together in large numbers....
Religious gathers in large numbers is prohibited...
This is usually the point in which the Dalvik explodes...
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Sounds like a gross over-simplification of a viewpoint to create a strawman.
Letting everyone go to work as before is a good way to spread the disease, increase deaths, and devastate the job market. Both situations hurt jobs, it's j
Yawn (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the 20% unemployment rate (Score:2, Informative)
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No, the need is because companies want to pay less, and the indentured-servitude features of the H1B visa, coupled with the boost to their career in their home country, let them do so.
How it works:
"Recruiter" calls someone like me, with 20+ years experience. "Here's a job in a city you don't live in. It requires 5 years experience, so it pays like a 5-year experience job, aka a big pay cut. No relocation, and you have to pay for your own travel for an in-person interview."
Even if I did pay to fly myself
It will be bad for America (Score:5, Insightful)
Such moves will further erode America's ability to attract top talent. Intellectual achievement is highly non uniform, it follows the power law two three or four levels.
80 % of all inventions and breakthroughs are achieved by 20% of the inventors, power law of degree 1. Even in that 20%, the same rule applied, 4% of inventors responsible for 64% of all inventions, second degree. Even that 4% it applies again, 0.8% of the inventors responsible for 51.2% of all inventions. This power law applies to many other fields, income, net worth, crime ...
With China emerging as a hostile power willing to play hardball with its manufacturing clout, USA can not afford to lose Indian talent. Simply changing the rules to make H1B applicable only for people with US university degrees would be a good change that will weed out resume padding, lying and third class graduates from India being treated equal to grads from MIT and Caltech.
As a working class American, what difference (Score:3)
We completely dismantled all the systems that redistributed the wealth generated by Immigrants. Why should you be surprised when the working class doesn't gi
Just to be clear (Score:2)
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I am an American now, and my children's future depends on the continued growth and strength of USA.
All the taxes I pay, our government gives to corporations, the "job creato
That's good, but you better start advocating (Score:2)
So far none of what you're suggesting is going to come to pass. The only politician in America pushing hard for those things, Bernie Sanders, just lost to a conservative (Joe Biden).
We're running out of time. Something's going to give and soon. COVID-19 just upped the time table by several factors.
And I'm not necessarily speaking to you personally, but rather the Neo-Liberals like Hilary Clinton who do nothing but tell us to "Learn to Code" while replacing us in the jobs we are
WFH unintended consequences (Score:5, Insightful)
Drink poisen and wait for enemy to die. (Score:4)
Two types of H1-Bs (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately H1-B system was used in two different ones, one being really bad for everyone involved (except for the consulting companies).
On one had, you have a specific person requested by the company. They really pay above market rates, and the persons have skills added to the workplace. In my own case, I was already here in the US, and working with a different visa for the same group. In many others people have already established themselves in US, and this is just allowing a standard way to a better work arrangement.
On the other hand, there were companies getting a pool of applicants with no prior experience here. They were chosen randomly by the H1-B lottery system, and the intermediaries knew the system well enough to flood it hundreds of thousands of applications. And then those selected will actually be contracted out to other companies and reduce the market rates. (I see no fault in those people wanting to come to the US, this is a great country after all).
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This is extremely easy to fix.
All H1B visas are given out via a lottery. So companies using H1B visas in both of your listed ways have the same chance of getting one.
Just sort by salary. If the workers really are the super-specialized candidates the company desperately needs, they'll pay a premium. If it's just an attempt to get cheap labor, they won't be able to.
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Partisan (Score:2, Insightful)
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Immigration restrictions do jack shit with the virus is already here, and spreading locally, and the countries supplying workers have a lower infection rate than the US.
Looks like somebody is getting desperate (Score:3)
This will, of course, not work. If companies could hire US workers, they would have done so. But maybe the moron is only after open jobs so he can claim that he "created" them.
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I guess things are returning to normal now that claims about Trump being "evil, just evil, I can read his mind and tell you his motives" came back.
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You don't need to read his mind to know his motives.
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What is the requirement then? Is there another name for that superpower?
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Re:Just an excuse (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that mind-reading ability similar to how every time DT has some last-second brain-fart and proclaims it as policy during a campaign speech, the apologists immediately declare "He was just being sarcastic, libtards can't take an obvious joke!" ?
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Re:Not Stated Reason (Score:5, Informative)
He actually did cite employment concerns as the issue:
American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers.
Source [whitehouse.gov]
It's shocking to realize that the Press, unsatisfied with the reasons the White House gave for the action, decided to invent their own, to feed the "orange man bad" crowd... I wonder why they chose to ignore the stated reason for the action?
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So the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction isn't coronavirus-related? Good to know.
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But they don't have the relevant skills! That's the problem!
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Re: Just an excuse (Score:4, Insightful)
He seems pretty ok with bringing in young, pretty Eastern European women to work at his golf clubs and hotels though.
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Are you the furry known as John Oliver?
Re:Not stated reason (Score:5, Informative)
> Yes, this has nothing to do with the record amount of unemployment! If it did have something to do with unemployment then why hasn't Trump said so?
He did, the press chose not to report it - shocking.
In addition, pursuant to Proclamation 10014, the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Homeland Security reviewed nonimmigrant programs and found that the present admission of workers within several nonimmigrant visa categories also poses a risk of displacing and disadvantaging United States workers during the current recovery.
The problem is the press report and slashdot summary failed to include a link to the whitehouse press release, which lays out the case for the suspension of certain immigration visas temporarily. Why didn't you seek out the actual reasons given before defending imaginary reasons? The Axios article had neither a quote nor a link to the press release for this issue - why not? Just trust the reporter to spoon feed you the truth and accept it without question?
Re:Terrible! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Terrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
he's missing out on opportunities to attract brilliant foreigners.
Sure. But immigration is the issue that separates Trump supporters from his opponents more than any other issue. Trump won in 2016 mainly because he made immigration his signature issue. He needs to feed his base.
Again, it's one of those policies that only pleases a minority of his supporters
Most Republicans believe that immigration should be decreased. About a third of Democrats feel the same. Immigration is unpopular with some specific Democratic constituents such as African-Americans.
Immigration polls [gallup.com]
Immigration - Partisan divide [immigrationforum.org]
Disclaimer: I am married to an immigrant.
Re:Terrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
let alone properly speak English.
As opposed to all those people born in this country who only have one language to worry about and still can't properly speak English.
If you are going to hire borderline illiterates, then why not just hire the damn locals?
Re:Terrible! (Score:4, Insightful)
Because not only are the local illiterates illiterate, they're uneducated and stupid. That's HOW they became illiterate in their native country, in their native tongue.
Foreign illiterates are only illiterate in English - they're fluent in their native tongue(s), and, given the pool we have to pick from, are HIGHLY educated.
I'll take a highly-educated foreign person that can't speak English over a moron local American every day, and twice on Sundays.
Because I can teach the foreign person English. I can't fix stupid Americans.
And yeah, I had to log in after 5 years to post this COMPLETELY OBVIOUS fact. Slashdot seems to mirror the overall decline in intelligent discussion, with people who can't think through even basic logic.
Re:Terrible! (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked for one of the largest tech firms in the US, and there was so much H1B abuse I couldn’t believe it. Big tech likes it’s indentured servants.
They even started trying to weed Americans out of jobs they’d been in for years. They would, for instance, make passports a requirement for continued employment. That’s one thing 100% of H1s have, but only 40% of US Citizens have. Before people start saying “whaaat, you don’t travel abroad?”, well of course not. Climate Change is a serious issue, hadn’t you heard? How can I wag a finger at everyone else then jet off to Japan?
Since government contracts (ITAR) only allowed citizens to access their data, we also had significantly more work to do, including oncalls. At one point, in our department of 42, 6 were US citizens. And we turned lots of qualified citizens away, especially older workers, whom we sadly wanted nothing to do with.
Yes, there are well-qualified US workers who struggle to gain employment, and these are > 40 year-old workers, whom have been rendered underemployed in a substantial part by Visa holders.
They’re not fashionable, though, so no one cares.
Most of the H1Bs I worked with were cool, and I enjoyed working with them, but most were rather well-to-do (relatively) back home, and I was always surprised by the bias against (mostly older) Americans.
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Yes, exactly. If that's why he wants to do it, then fine. Just say so. The because-they-could-have-coronavirus excuse is laughable. People coming in on H-1Bs are typically going to be here for several years. So if coronavirus was really the concern with them it would be no big deal to take their temperature, then send them to a mandatory 14 day quarantine, with a test or two thrown in for good measure. Considering the pay they'd get here vs back in their home country, I doubt they'd argue too much. Small hu
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And if the H1-B process works the way everyone claims it works, they won't be able to hire anyone from overseas because there are plenty of people with the right skills in the US that need a job right about now.
Re: Terrible! (Score:2)
Those waiters should retrain to be Rust programmers...
We're not all identical cogs that can simply be placed to another industry. Wiping out our service economy doesn't mean we have warm bodies to use as skilled labor. We can't even use most of them in construction or agriculture.
The solution to unemployment is economic growth. (But too little unemployment leads to economic stagnation)
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Do we have enough highly skilled Americans to do these high tech jobs?
Yep tons, age discrimination in tech is a real thing.
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You can't mix per capita numbers (the infection rate) and total numbers (the amount of tests). The US test rate is good, especially considering how it lagged behind for two months, but not yet even in the top 20 worldwide. Other countries, where the epidemic has run its course don't test as much anymore, true. But they don't need to anymore and they had a much higher test rate a few weeks ago.
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Once you normalize for population [worldometers.info] (click on total cases/1M population,
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Re:Brilliant! (Score:5, Insightful)
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The difference is that most of these countries barely have any active cases, meaning that the first wave is mostly over for them. The USA has half of its cases - over a million in total - as active. The current projection will put the USA death rate above France and Italy by October. Considering that the projected numbers for today are lower than the actual numbers you probably will overtake Spain as well. But the UK will do worse, I give you that.
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https://www.worldometers.info/... [worldometers.info]
Total cases: 2386804
Closed cases: 1113412
Can you do the simple math?
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Nah, you dislike us first and then justify it by inventing reasons.
By the way, the death rate follows the active case rate with a lag of 10 to 20 days because it takes up to two weeks to show symptoms and another 7 to 10 days to die.
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No amount of writing in caps will make you right because the number of daily infections has been on the rise since the tenth of June or so. You can expect the number of daily deaths going up in the next few days.
And as for your preferences and dislikes, I honestly couldn't care less even if I tried.
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https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
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The USA has more total deaths every day than the whole Europe, including the UK, Russia, Ukraine and whatnot, more than twice the US population altogether. And by the way, the USA has recorded 341 deaths, not 256. No wonder you are so deluded if your numbers are off by almost a third.
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Pants on fire.
https://www.worldometers.info/... [worldometers.info]
New deaths: +348
And compared to the EU the USA "just started their curve" as well, lagging several weeks behind.
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That was the number for Sunday, you dumbass. They are always lower because fewer people work on Sunday hence fewer deaths get reported.
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In addition, pursuant to Proclamation 10014, the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Homeland Security reviewed nonimmigrant programs and found that the present admission of workers within several nonimmigrant visa categories also poses a risk of displacing and disadvantaging United States workers during the current recovery.
American workers compete against foreign nationals for jobs in every sector of our economy, including against millions of aliens who enter the United States to perform temporary work. Temporary workers are often accompanied by their spouses and children, many of whom also compete against American workers. Under ordinary circumstances, properly administered temporary worker programs can provide benefits to the economy. But under the extraordinary circumstances of the economic contraction resulting from the COVID-19 outbreak, certain nonimmigrant visa programs authorizing such employment pose an unusual threat to the employment of American workers.
Source: [whitehouse.gov]
He only needs about 19% of the population to win (Score:4, Informative)
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Think smaller still (Score:2)
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That it fucks up the lives of people is entirely beside the point to him.
The people impacted don't live here, they aren't his problem until they are here - we aren't the world's keeper.
Also, the action has to do with protecting American workers who are, actually, his concern, but yeah, whatever makes you feel better.
I am curious why neither the Axios reporter nor the Slashdot editor felt the need to quote the Whitehouse to support their assertion that this was because of Covid-19? Oh right, because they can't.
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Let us just call him a nazi and burn him at the stake?
Seems reasonable to me.
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"Let's cancel the H1B program and watch as Americans demand 3 times the wages, and tech companies pass those costs along to consumers."
I agree with this. It's ECON 101 material. Any company should pass along its labor costs to the consumer. Also, it's not the role of the US government to encourage employment of foreign labor in order to suppress the wages of US workers. That is what the H1-B program does.
Re:consequences (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as Democrats vs. Republicans, I think both parties should be immediately dissolved and anyone currently in government should have to get a psych eval before being allowed into any new parties that form. Both parties have been focused so much on destroying each other that it feels like anything they actually accomplish for the good of ordinary Americans is an accident. The Dems are busy pussyfooting around getting labeled socialist and the Reps are trying to shoehorn greed and Jesus into one platform. One is spineless and the other schizophrenic. Hopeless.
Re:consequences (Score:4, Insightful)
If it was like this, by all means, let's cancel Obamacare and watch as millions get kicked off health insurance and have nothing to fall back on when they get stomped with a 400k medical bill.
Because private insurance will cease to exist if we eliminate Obamacare? Don't be so silly. Obamacare simultaneously raised the cost of providing health insurance coverage in the US and offered subsidies to people earning up to 4x the Federal Poverty Level. Eliminating Obamacare does not end Medicare. It does not end SCHIP. It does not end your employers private health care coverage plans, it does not end Medishare-type plans. No, all it does is it eliminates the option for poor Americans to get "free" (or heavily-subsidized) healthcare coverage with sky-high, astronomical deductibles and co-pays which made it impossible for most Americans to get any benefit beyond "free annual exams" from their plan. When the average American can't scrape together $500 for an emergency, how do they handle a $5,000-$10,000 deductible?
Ending Obamacare will not cause millions of Americans to lose their insurance, any more than the implementation of Obamacare cost millions of Americans their coverage - they will lose their current coverage, and instead will sign up for catastrophic coverage and pay for routine medical visits out of their own pocket - that's the sane way to provide care, and millions will suddenly qualify for Charity Care, something the Obama Administration cut (but didn't eliminate) under Obamacare.
I pick my own fruit (Score:2)
I was in the schoolyard community garden picking strawberries, during the summer and when the school had closed down, when who shows up, the school principal.
"What is growing in there?" as to ask "Can I help you?"
"Oh yeah, here are some tomato plants (that I planted), here are some radishes and pumpkins, and over there is a plot of kale (that I put in after pulling up the oat-and-pea mix that looked like quack grass, for which I got scolded with a note by the Becky-in-charge who is actually, named, Bec
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Eh? Germany was ruled by social democrats for a while. It has not lead to the workers owning the means of production. So how exactly is it a dog whistle for socialism?
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