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The Almighty Buck Bitcoin Facebook Privacy

Richard Stallman Discusses Privacy Risks of Bitcoin, Suggests 'Something Much Better' (cointelegraph.com) 168

Richard Stallman gave a new interview to the site Cointelegraph, which asked him his feelings about cryptocurrencies. "I'm not against them," Stallman answers "I'm not campaigning to eliminate them, I just don't particularly want to use them."

Cointelegraph then asks Stallman how he feels about tests underway for the Chinese government's own central bank digital currency: Richard Stallman: "Digital payment systems are fundamentally dangerous if they are not engineered to ensure privacy. China is the enemy of privacy. China shows what totalitarian surveillance is like. I consider that hell on earth. That's part of why I haven't used cryptocurrencies that are issued by the community. If the cryptocurrency is issued by a government, it would surveille people just the way credit cards do and PayPal does, and all those other systems meaning completely unacceptable."
Stallman later says "I don't do any kind of digital payments, and the reason is the systems that exist do not respect the user's privacy, and that includes Bitcoin. Every Bitcoin transaction is published." But when Cointelegraph asks about various Bitcoin modifications designed for privacy, Stallman answers "I am not convinced about them." Richard Stallman: In any case, the GNU project has developed something much better, which is GNU Taler. GNU Taler is not a cryptocurrency. It is not a currency at all. It is a payment system designed to be used for anonymous payments to businesses to buy something. It is anonymous through a blind signature for the payer. However, the payee has to identify itself for every purchase in order to get money out of the system. So the idea is you can use your bank account to get Taler Tokens, and you can spend them and the payee won't be able to tell who you are.

It won't be able to tell that you got the token from a particular bank account at a particular time, even though you did so. To convert your payment into money in its own bank, the store (the payee) will have to identify itself. So this gives privacy in a much more reliable way than cryptocurrencies do, and it blocks the idea of using this system to enable tax evasion.

GNU Taler recently had an exciting milestone. A few months ago the eurozone banking system became interested in supporting Taler payments, and just recently they succeeded using a test setup in obtaining Taler tokens with one bank account and paying them to another bank account through the Taler system. Now, it's not something that anybody can use but it will be, and that will be really exciting.

And in response to a question about Facebook's "Libra" digital currency project, Stallman says he hasn't study the details "because the most important thing about it I already know. It's connected with Facebook, and Facebook means surveillance.

"I urge people to join me in absolutely refusing to use Facebook or rather be used by Facebook. Because Facebook doesn't have users. Facebook has used. So don't be a sucker, don't be used by Facebook."
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Richard Stallman Discusses Privacy Risks of Bitcoin, Suggests 'Something Much Better'

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  • Who is surprised that Stallman got in "Of course GNU has a better methodology" ?

  • https://taler.net/ (Score:5, Informative)

    by nuntius ( 92696 ) on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:09PM (#60384467)

    Dear editors,

    Please post a link to every project mentioned on /. Not just the click-through interview or review.

    LMDDGTFY / LMGTFY: https://taler.net/ [taler.net]

    Thanks! :)

    • by nuntius ( 92696 ) on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:41PM (#60384525)

      I've been researching this further. If you want to use Taler, read the website. If you want to learn how it works, read this PhD thesis. It is quite readable, and most parts do not need a fancy degree to understand.

      download page: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.... [archives-ouvertes.fr]
      pdf link: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.... [archives-ouvertes.fr]

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It says "fraud eliminated by design" but the docs don't really explain how that works.

      Anyway the main weakness I can see is that it relies on existing banking infrastructure, which means that for example it will have to deal with rules on money laundering checks. Being anonymous isn't really compatible with that. But for small payments those aren't an issue so it's probably okay.

  • Bitcoin: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jarwulf ( 530523 ) on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:26PM (#60384495)
    A currency for the privacy minded people who are independent and want to not rely on the controlled infrastructure of society and want to prepare for when the SHTF that has this gigantic ledger in the sky that records every single transaction and requires a setup of an advanced economy with reliable electricity, internet access, and extensive communication networks and dedicated infrastructure all of which are at the mercy of political leaders. Yep, might want a bit of a do over.
    • Plus: it can get value only from existing traditional currencies it can be converted to, currencies which become charged with value only through the ability of the industry within their currency areas to fulfill the promise of giving more of it back to investors investing there.

      • Plus: it can get value only from existing traditional currencies it can be converted to,

        Currencies ultimately get value from precisely one thing: people's faith that the currency is worth something.

        As long as people can buy stuff for bitcoins and generally believe they will continue to be able to do so then it has value.

        Often the faith is well placed. For example you need to pay your taxes in the local currency, so you always need some and if the economy is large and stable it's likely to stick around. Tha

    • by chrae ( 159904 )

      not rely on the controlled infrastructure of society and want to prepare for when the SHTF

      Taler is not for these people:

      GNU Taler allows customers to remain anonymous, while ensuring that merchants can be held accountable by governments. Hence, GNU Taler is compatible with anti-money-laundering (AML) and know-your-customer (KYC) regulation, as well as data protection regulation (such as GDPR).

      • AML and KYC requires knowing the sources of income into accounts. Taler makes that impossible.
    • Not only that, but for the average non-technical user, if they own any bitcoin at all, it's usually through a wallet app. In other words, they're completely at the mercy of whoever controls their wallet. That is completely insane to me and proof to me that they don't understand what the hell is going on.

  • by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:48PM (#60384541)

    If I send money to you, but you don't know I sent it, how do you know to send me the thing I just bought?

    Does Taler act as the custodian for the product, and product is sent to them, and they send it to me?

    • by chrae ( 159904 )

      If I send money to you, but you don't know I sent it, how do you know to send me the thing I just bought?

      You give them a PO Box # to ship to.

      • If I send money to you, but you don't know I sent it, how do you know to send me the thing I just bought?

        You give them a PO Box # to ship to.

        Ah, that could work, as long as what you are buying fits in a PO Box.
        It leaves a bit of a trail I suppose but it's better than a home address.

    • You don't need any custodian, just SOME metadata associated with the transaction (obviously there would be some, as there is already, at least the amount). It's the equivalent of sending money to the VPN services (yes, some do that) with a note "this is to pay bill 12345678". Of course there could be much more complicated implementations based on crypto, to even be able to show you are the one who sent it but nobody else (even from the ones receiving the "proof") to be able to impersonate you and claim they

  • I'm about to consider Apple Pay, which seems to have some privacy protections. I've always avoided using Visa & MC when possible, preferring cash. But cash is hard to use online and in certain types of transactions. I'd love to hear a thoughtful analysis of Apple Pay from a privacy standpoint. Thanks.

  • Has he even heard of XMR? Or ZEC? Honestly.

  • ... still have the idea that a deformed society in which either authorities or businesses (or both) spy on you and exploit you, which, beside everything else, becomes visible in a certain concept (like money), could be bettered by introducing a new, free (as in freedom) version of that concept. But that's not the case. The spying and the exploitation will, at best, change, but it won't stop and it won't become any better, either. For that, society (and at its core its economic system) needs to change, not j

    • Small Town gossip has always been part of our society, but there is some deniability in that.

      It used to be that a petty-criminal would do a crime and do his time and that would be that. Nowadays, ANY crime comes with a disproportionate life sentence.

    • change in what way? ... I don't know of any change that would accomplish that in any meaningful way. Cumminism and socialism are worse at that then others, anarchy basically kills people so that's no good, how do 'prevent crime' while maintining privacy , there will always be a 'tension' between the two,.

  • The FSF has become associated with politics, mind-crushingly boring meta arguments, glacial development, patch rejection, developer frustration, lack of interest, lack of pragmatism and release schedules that compete with universal heat death.

    So unless Taler eschews ALL of those things and produces something that fulfills a genuine purpose and builds up to meet demand, then it will die on its ass like so many other FSF efforts. Maybe it will confound expectations but I'll wait for some genuine buzz before

  • What they have created is a tool which has a primary use for financial crimes like money laundering, bribery, and embezzlement. That alone may cause it's use to be banned in many jurisdictions. That leaves out the whole supporting criminal enterprises, RICO, drug dealing, etc. for which it will be used.
  • "So the idea is you can use your bank account to get Taler Tokens, and you can spend them and the payee won't be able to tell who you are.
    "

    I can already do this with no fees involved by walking into any number of stores and buying a digital gift card with cash and then using that gift card online. You can even do this using cryptocurrencies in some places.

    This would be a lot more anonymous than tying your bank account to any system.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:02AM (#60385243)
    After those ten years, what is it used for, other than speculation, money laundering, and consuming exorbitant amounts of energy?
  • I like Taler. Sounds right
  • Both China and the US have repressive governments, and residents of each claim the other is worse (believe it or not). China has more restrictive laws and seems to suppress individual dissent more widely. However, when the true measure of freedom, the incarceration rate, is considered, the US is a miserable failure.
    Of course, the US's high crime rate is part of the equation, but even if that is factored out, the US still has the higher rate of interaction. Some loyal Americans will argue US prisoners are mo

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