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Transportation United States

Uber and Lyft Consider Franchise-Like Model in California (nytimes.com) 169

Uber and Lyft, which are facing mounting pressure to classify their freelance drivers as full-time employees in California, are looking for another way. From a report: One option that both companies are seriously discussing is licensing their brands to operators of vehicle fleets in California, according to three people with knowledge of the plans. The change would resemble an independently operated franchise, allowing Uber and Lyft to keep an arms-length association with drivers so that the companies would not need to employ them and pay their benefits.

The idea would effectively be a return to the days of how groups of black cars were run. Lyft has presented the plan to its board of directors, one person said. Uber, which already works with fleet operators in Germany and Spain, is also familiar with the business model. The companies have not committed to the franchise-like plans, said the people with knowledge of the discussions, who asked to remain anonymous because the details are confidential. Uber and Lyft are waiting to see how California's legal situation around drivers, who have been treated as independent contractors, plays out first, they said.

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Uber and Lyft Consider Franchise-Like Model in California

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  • by Fly Swatter ( 30498 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:48AM (#60414729) Homepage
    Answer: Franchising!
  • by TWX ( 665546 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:54AM (#60414747)

    So all they're doing is trying to push the figure-out-how-to-pay-drivers part off onto someone else.

    My guess is a few unscrupulous businessmen will try it and end up trying it and will be sued within the next few years, or family-businesses will buy franchises and operate them similarly to how family businesses operate restaurants where they can skirt some of the payroll issues, or possibly even more ironic, taxi companies might pick up the franchise contracts and the prices basically come up to parity with taxis or even higher.

    They don't seem to understand that if labor wins as it should, this model is hosed. It literally only works if either 1) a driver is a very-occasional driver that's actually picking up the equivalent of paying hitchhikers heading for destinations already near the destination of the driver, or 2) cars are 100% autonomous.

    • and we're right back where we started. Somehow I don't think this'll work. I haven't read up on the law but I find it hard to believe nobody thought of this rather obvious loophole when writing it.

      On the other hand parts runners get away with this. But then again the ones I know employ mostly ex-cons (usually with violent or excessive records) who nobody cares if they get abused, and Uber can't do that since those guys won't pass a background check.

      Basically there won't be enough dodgy drivers that
    • and the people running the franchises will sue to be classed as employees as they will have no control.

      • and the people running the franchises will sue to be classed as employees

        It doesn't work that way. The franchisees will almost certainly be required to incorporate. A corporation has no standing to sue for misclassification of employment.

        • by dgatwood ( 11270 )

          I think the GP meant that the franchisees will be sued to get their drivers classified as employees.

    • I expect they are trying to make each individual driver a franchise owner. So if their Uber fails, it is all on them.

      However I expect it may just end up people not using their services. If they have to create their own company and fill out the paperwork. They might as well start their own business vs Franchise, and deal with the overhead.

      • by ILongForDarkness ( 1134931 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:04PM (#60415209)

        Yeah paperwork, and having to fill out business and personal taxes every year will be a super pain in the ass. If you are full time uber maybe, but if it's just a 10-15hr a week side hustle? No thanks. Especially since you know the whole reason you have to do the extra work is to avoid getting properly compensated. Under paid and I get extra business and taxes crap to sort out in my spare time? Sign me up !

        IMO these companies are horrible and I won't deal with them. I'd rather deal with the taxi license mafia that at least pays somewhat reasonably than prop up a stupid business model that relies on people being willing to be underpaid and have no benefits.

        • The "paperwork" to form a corporation can be done online. It takes about 20 minutes and costs about $200.

          Filing business taxes costs about $70 annually. Filing an S-corp tax return is no more effort than preparing a Schedule-C for your personal tax return.

          On the plus sign, there are many opportunities to write off expenses. My spouse runs an S-corp out of our house. We write off half our utilities and the car payments on my minivan as tax-deductible business expenses. We recently bought a new set of fu

          • by ghoul ( 157158 )

            Uber is not a transportation company. It is a non-profit engaged in spreading Math knowledge. Only those who cant do math drive for Uber and after 6 months they leave having learnt Math in the school of life. Math disabled folks cant be expected to figure out their own taxes

          • We write off half our utilities and the car payments on my minivan as tax-deductible business expenses. We recently bought a new set of furniture for our dining room, and since we occasionally discuss business while eating lunch, it was fully deductible as "office furniture".

            If you're deducting the full amount of your dining room furniture, why aren't you deducting the full amount for your utilities? Could it be because S-corp home office deductions [firmofthefuture.com] are an allocated portion of the total expense?

            The expenses must have a business connection....They can also include a portion of mixed-use expenses – that is, those with a personal and business component, such as home office expenses, cell phones and home internet.

            You may want to rethink the wisdom of taking a full deduction

    • They don't seem to understand that if labor wins as it should, this model is hosed. It literally only works if either 1) a driver is a very-occasional driver that's actually picking up the equivalent of paying hitchhikers heading for destinations already near the destination of the driver, or 2) cars are 100% autonomous.

      I don't think option 2 will work. Autonomous vehicles cost money. If there are no drivers for them to offload these costs, Uber/Lyft have to purchase, maintain, fuel, and insure these vehicles. Most drivers are currently subsidizing Uber/Lyft by eating these costs.

      This assumes autonomous vehicles ever exist, which I also question. The best use for autonomous vehicles so far is as a smoke screen when swindling VCs out of their money.

    • So all they're doing is trying to push the figure-out-how-to-pay-drivers part off onto someone else.

      Unless you crafted that post yourself using primitive hand tools constructed from raw materials in the natural environment, then you "problem pushed" almost the entire effort.

      Similar to how you push the problem of growing, harvesting and milling your own wheat off onto someone else when you purchase a bag of flour at the grocery store. Or mining, smelting and alloying raw ores then stamping metal when you buy a stainless-steel butter knife to butter that bread. Or raising the cow, milking the cow and chur

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:54AM (#60414749)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by thereddaikon ( 5795246 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:08AM (#60414795)

      Once again asking the wrong question. In America the discussion has been forced to "who is going to pay for all this" as a way to stifle progress and prevent a solution. The question you really should be asking is why healthcare is so goddamn expensive here. And the answer simply put is our healthcare industry is inefficient at every level seemingly by design. Just about everything is done wrong. The way billing happens is done wrong, the way hospitals are managed is done wrong. The kinds of business relationships between providers and hospitals is wrong. The way drugs are tested and approved is wrong. The way medical data is compiled, stored, transmitted and protected is all wrong.

      Most nations with single payer systems manage to pull it off because their systems are more efficient than ours. If you tried to do single payer in America today without changing anything else it would collapse. You need a top down rework of how we do healthcare first. Who knows, maybe by the time we accomplish that the cost would be lowered so much that who pays for it isn't all that important anymore.

      • by OrangeTide ( 124937 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:23AM (#60414825) Homepage Journal

        . And the answer simply put is our healthcare industry is inefficient at every level seemingly by design.

        The drug prices are high. The equipment is expensive and often had costly service contracts and unfavorable interest rates for loans. The doctors' tuition are high. The liability insurance for doctors and clinics are high. The legal settlements and judgement are high.

        We'd have to reform every level of our medical system to reverse the past 50 years of fuckery. I've never seen a political candidate that was even remotely close to discussing what it would take to fix healthcare. At best you get people who want to hand wave a single payer system as the only step necessary. Significantly worse than that is to use tax dollars to offset private insurance premiums (thanks Obama). And absolute worst is to pretend nothing is wrong with the status quo and label any solution as a communist plot to corrupt our bodily fluids.

        • Obamacare was doomed to focus on redistributing rather than reducing costs after the "death panels" meme took off. Americans simply aren't willing to countenance rationalizing - which is to say 'rationing' - health care. Until we are collectively willing to apply some sort of cost/benefit analysis to healthcare, we will never control costs.
          • "death panels meme" is what we used to call spin doctoring back in the olden days of the 80's and 90's. It's propaganda that was effective in the age of sound bites, where most voters have such a shallow understanding of their own government that a simple phrase or short sentence is enough to persuade them. The real innovation is when we found out that those sound bites don't even have to be true to capture the hearts and minds of voters.

            We'll fix health care when your average person cares enough to hold th

            • by Kohath ( 38547 )

              We'll fix health care when your average person cares enough to hold their political representative's feet to the fire.

              No you won't. The average person doesn't trust that politician with health care. The average person gets health coverage from her job. [census.gov]

              Also, the overwhelming majority of politicians are in safe districts.

              • The average person gets health coverage from her job.

                This is the difference between the US and almost all of the rest of the world, and it's the best example of the Law of Unintended Consequences [wikipedia.org] of which I am aware.

                The reason the US worker gets health coverage from her job, and not from the government like everywhere else, arose during World War II, and was almost completely accidental. I quote a 2017 Chicago Tribune article [chicagotribune.com]:

                As demand for everything — particularly labor — climbed, Congress passed the Stabilization Act of 1942, which allowed the president to freeze wages and salaries for all the nation's workers. A day after its passage, President Franklin Roosevelt issued an executive order invoking these powers, which applied to "all forms of direct or indirect remuneration to an employee," including but not limited to salaries and wages, as well as "bonuses, additional compensation, gifts, commissions, fees."

                But there was an exemption of massive proportions slipped into a fateful clause: "insurance and pension benefits" could grow "in a reasonable amount" during the freeze.

                As companies struggled to deal with wartime labor shortages, the wage freeze left them in a serious bind: How could they retain workers if they couldn't give raises? If they didn't soon realize the allure of fringe benefits, insurance companies pressed that case through marketing campaigns, as historian Jennifer Klein has observed.

                The Revenue Act of 1942 triggered another rush to enroll employees in health plans. By slapping corporations with tax rates of 80 or even up to 90 percent on any profits in excess of prewar revenue, Congress all but guaranteed a frenzied search for loopholes. Employee benefits, according to the new law, could be deducted from profits. As an anonymous employer observed in a study published on trends in health insurance, "it was a case of paying the money for insurance for their employees or to Uncle Sam in taxes."

                In 1943, two rulings helped accelerate the movement toward employer-sponsored health insurance. The first was a directive by the Internal Revenue Service that employees did not have to pay taxes on premiums paid by their employers. The second was a decision by the National War Labor Board reaffirming the exemption of fringe benefits from the wage freeze.

                After the war, a series of administrative and legal rulings kept these incentives in place, despite several attempts to reverse them. Meanwhile, the number of people enrolled in health insurance plans skyrocketed, with most of the growth driven by corporate group policies. In 1940, only 9.8 percent of Americans had some kind of medical insurance; by 1946, the number had grown to just under 30 percent.

                (For the true insurance nerd, incredible amounts of additional background and detail on the development of health insurance for worker

        • The drug prices are high. The equipment is expensive and often had costly service contracts and unfavorable interest rates for loans. The doctors' tuition are high. The liability insurance for doctors and clinics are high. The legal settlements and judgement are high.

          Ad a dirty third worlder, one thing that will necer cease to shock is how high the prices of everything are in the US.
          Sure, you are getting paid 200k$ a year, and am getting paid 20th of that, but my food expenses cost about 50$ monthly, no joke. A visit to the doctor on the very expensive side is about 20-30$.
          Looking at the salaries of the US might make it attractive, but what's the point of those salaries if everything is 20x more expensive than here?
          For the worldwide flagship of Capitalism, it sure seems rather inefficient when it comes to prices.

        • and could pay even less if they weren't prohibited by statute from bargaining. Same goes for the equipment. Obama had set up to purchase low cost intubators but got blocked when the company selling them at 3x the price bought out the company Obama's admin had picked, and by the time he was getting ready to pick another company the Admin had changed.

          Tuition is easy to fix, make college free. Doctors are incredibly valuable and they work their asses off in college. They shouldn't have to pay for the privi
      • Bingo (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:25AM (#60414829)

        I can fly to Germany and buy insulin and with the airfare its still the cheaper option. And before you open your mouth no its not subsidized its because Germany can negotiate prices. We are getting royally fucked by drug companies.

      • Once again asking the wrong question. In America the discussion has been forced to "who is going to pay for all this" as a way to stifle progress and prevent a solution. The question you really should be asking is why healthcare is so goddamn expensive here.

        Exactly right. The main problem with the ACA is it considered "affordability" only in the context of who pays. It needed to focus on how much. Right now medical service providers are gaming the system like crazy.

      • >And the answer simply put is our healthcare industry is inefficient at every level seemingly by design.

        The health insurance system certainly is.

        Health insurance is a method for transferring money from healthy people to sick people who need it.

        Health insurance companies don't get rewarded for being efficient. Quite the contrary: they get rewarded based on how *inefficient* they are. The more money they take from health people, and the less money they give to sick people, the more profit they make.

        • >And the answer simply put is our healthcare industry is inefficient at every level seemingly by design.

          The health insurance system certainly is.

          Health insurance is a method for transferring money from healthy people to sick people who need it.

          Health insurance companies don't get rewarded for being efficient. Quite the contrary: they get rewarded based on how *inefficient* they are. The more money they take from health people, and the less money they give to sick people, the more profit they make.

          They don't give money to sick people. They give money to health service providers and drug companies.
          To keep costs down they pressure they providers hard to cut costs, and some things they wont pay for.

          True story: I went to the ER for a minor ankle fracture. Got a few x-rays and a light splint.
          Hospital charges: $3500
          Insurance in-network charge: $900
          My obligation: $350

          Without the insurance company ratcheting it down I would have been directly billed $3500.
          The post-insurance $350 seems a lot more reasonable

      • It's because the incentives are misaligned. Honestly, this is exactly why government exists.

        If you're a business that makes money from someone that's sick, what's your incentive? It's not to make the person well, it's to keep them sick. (This is on the more macro level—I have no doubt that on a personal level, doctors are trying very hard to make people well.)

        If you're in a business that insures sick people, what's your incentive? It's not to pay out insurance money to health providers, it's to be as stingy as possible with payouts, even if that means leaving your customers high and dry.

        The health industry is VERY EFFICIENT at turning health problems into money, and that's the problem.

        A government's incentive is to have everyone healthy, 100% of the time. For a properly functioning government, keeping people healthy pays off the best. Not only do you not have to pay for care, but healthy people are productive and work and go shopping and pay taxes and all the rest of it.

        This is also why there's so little research into antibiotics. In general, antibiotics work really well and you only need one course of them every once in a while and that's it. The ROI is super low compared to something like cholesterol medication that you have to take every day.

        So to fix the problem you need to realign everyone with the right incentives. Governments need to take over the business of health care, and private industry needs to take over the business of developing new tech and drugs that make the government better at its role as health care provider. That's it. Virtually every other way to do this ends in disaster or endless, hopeless bureaucracy.

        • by DogDude ( 805747 )
          Exactamundo.

          Another angle is that health care demand is inelastic. If somebody needs health care, they're not going to forgo it because it costs too much. As a result, the "free market" doesn't work for healthcare, which is another way of describing why it's such a big mess (but your post is a much better way to describe why the system doesn't work in the US).
      • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

        Most nations with single payer systems manage to pull it off because their systems are more efficient than ours.

        Yet a great portion of the advances in care and technology (not all of course) still come from America. Others come from suppliers who sell products in American and indeed charge Americans more for them than they charge or own governments. Its almost like Americans are subsidizing the advancement of medical care for the rest of the world.

        Go ahead lets do medicare for all with its current rates and what have you; and watch how expensive high risk R&D grinds to halt because there is no ROI there. People

        • Yet a great portion of the advances in care and technology (not all of course) still come from America. Others come from suppliers who sell products in American and indeed charge Americans more for them than they charge or own governments. Its almost like Americans are subsidizing the advancement of medical care for the rest of the world.

          While I actually agree with you that we are in large part subsidizing the RnD side I don't think that has much to do with the across the board higher costs you see in the US.

          Most of the costs I'm talking about are due to the insane and byzantine billing system we have in place that requires an absurd amount of administrative overhead. Some new revolutionary cancer drug is one thing but why does it cost so much to get a broken bone in a cast? Stuff that should be commodity care are still expensive. I don't l

      • Medicare & Medicaid's efficiency is in the mid to high 90s. We do just fine until it's time to pay for it.

        That's why the left wing are hammering "Medicare for All". We already have the system in place, we just need to let everybody use it.
      • I agree 100% that we need to look at why healthcare costs so much. That was my one big problem with ObamaCare... it didn't actually address costs.

        This is honestly a curiosity of mine. Why do you list so many reasons except one of the biggest costs (medical staff). I'm not here to say medical staff are underpaid or overpaid or anything like that. My point is that medical care is expensive because LABOR is expensive.

        I'm in Canada and we have universal healthcare. It often takes up almost half our provincial b

    • There aren't enough "billionaires". Tax them all and you don't get enough money to accomplish anything.

      Not like that ever happens anyway. You keep advocating for more government power and you never seem to notice that rich people never seem to have any trouble. Every new rule always has a special workaround for rich people with an accountant and a lawyer. Always.

      Do you know why? Because people in government care about themselves and are always careful to make sure to patronize those who can help them o

      • by DogDude ( 805747 )
        Oh, blah, blah, blah. The US can't do it. What a terrible, defeatist attitude. How does the rest of the world handle a functioning health care system for all, and the US can't?
        • by Kohath ( 38547 )

          How does the rest of the world handle a functioning health care system for all, and the US can't?

          Same way you get a huge beautiful shade tree in your yard. By starting 60 years ago.

          People in other countries also have endless complaints about their health care systems, BTW. So even though they started 60 years ago and kept costs from rising as much as they've risen here, they still have many problems, just like everything involving humanity and the real world.

          • by DogDude ( 805747 )
            So, then, it might take a long time, so we should never bother? Is that what you're saying?
            • by Kohath ( 38547 )

              So, then, it might take a long time, so we should never bother? Is that what you're saying?

              Does anyone trust anyone else enough to allow them to make meaningful changes to health care? Not right now. So if you want it to get better, you need to start rebuilding trust in society. The last guy who tried to mess with our health care used the lie of the year [npr.org] to sell it. So you've got a long way to go to rebuild trust before you can even get started on health care.

              Come up with something to help everyone if you want to start rebuilding trust. Making up schemes to steal from out groups shows the op

              • by DogDude ( 805747 )
                You talk about "building trust", yet you call Obama's statement the "lie of the year". Pot, meet kettle.
                • by Kohath ( 38547 )

                  You talk about "building trust", yet you call Obama's statement the "lie of the year". Pot, meet kettle.

                  That's what NPR called it.

                • by Kohath ( 38547 )

                  You talk about "building trust", yet you call Obama's statement the "lie of the year". Pot, meet kettle.

                  Also, how does complaining about me help anything? Does it get you closer to whatever health care goal you have? No. Does it get you closer to any goal? No. Does it accomplish .... anything? No.

                  Instead of sneery finger-pointing, someone who wanted things to get better should be trying to think of a way to make things better.

                  My way of doing that is to try to get people to stop fantasizing about magic health care fixes. Believing in a fantasy means you can't actually participate in any discussion about

          • People in other countries also have endless complaints about their health care systems, BTW. So even though they started 60 years ago and kept costs from rising as much as they've risen here, they still have many problems, just like everything involving humanity and the real world.

            Of course there are problems elsewhere too. But people aren't dying because they can't afford their fucking insulin.

    • by DogDude ( 805747 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @01:13PM (#60415241)
      Even a 401(k) is bullshit. People used to have pensions. Now we have to cross our fingers and hope that the stock market does well enough so that we can retire.
    • by ghoul ( 157158 )

      Why is insurance or lack of the issue? I would think 5000 dollar xrays are the problem. Abolish health insurance, abolish licensing, abolish the FDAs right to block treatments (They can still provide approved label and leave it up to consumers if they want to use something without the approved lael). Focus on regulations like all prices for medical care have to be stated up front. If SpaceX can bid fixed cost on literally rocket science doctors can figure out the cost of their time. Have govt cover emergenc

  • Crazy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Lab Rat Jason ( 2495638 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:00AM (#60414769)

    How are we going to prop up an unprofitable business? I know: let's introduce a middle man to siphon off a little bit of that profit. That will definitely help.

    • I don't think they'll end up doing it. The top-level guys at the iTaxi services are still in the initial phases of figuring out what they're going to do. They never thought this could happen. "We've always just ran over everyone else before. Send the lobbyists off with a little more money, it'll all turn out OK."

      Now it's beginning to look like it may not play out that way. So they are just now starting to consider alternatives. It's against their nature to consider paying the ground-level employees more, so

      • reported 34% of workers are in the "gig" economy. That's insane. It's no surprise that lobbyist can't stop new laws. At some point you've screwed over so many people it just doesn't work anymore.

        The way most of these businesses got away with this "you're a contractor" B.S. was one of two tricks, either they only hired young folks and basically split the cost of benefits with them (relying on the fact that young folks are willing to forgo them in exchange for a bit more pay) or they go after violent ex-c
        • The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in 2017 reported 34% of workers are in the "gig" economy. That's insane.

          It's insane because the BLS never reported anything of the sort. Here is what the BLS said about contingent workers in 2017: [bls.gov]

          Using three different measures, contingent workers accounted for 1.3 percent to 3.8 percent of total employment in May 2017.

          Now that report didn't look specifically at "short jobs or tasks that workers find through mobile apps", but this supplement did: [bls.gov]

          In May 2017, there were 1.6 million electronically mediated workers, accounting for 1.0 percent of total employment.

          So the BLS say

  • Fight on (Score:3, Insightful)

    by stikves ( 127823 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:01AM (#60414771) Homepage

    On one corner there is the existing taxi companies with their old, broken system, poor service quality, and still low wages with "owner operator" cabs

    On the second corner there is Uber, consistently bleeding money, does not employ its drivers, but provides very good service, and many drivers actually can make six figures.

    And on the third corner there is State of California with severely underfunded unemployment and pension funds, desperately needing to classify more workers as wage workers instead of independent contractors.

    It is fun to watch...

    • Re:Fight on (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lab Rat Jason ( 2495638 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:30AM (#60414845)

      and many drivers actually can make six figures.

      *Citation needed

      • It's pretty easy for self-employed people to make six figures. The catch is, because they're self employed, the money they're making is basically revenue, not personal income. You have to subtract business expenses and self-employment taxes to arrive at an income figure comparable to someone earning a salary. It's not uncommon for your income to be half your revenue. Less if you're in the resale business (buy something for $100, sell it for $125, revenue is $125 but less than $25 of that is income).
      • Re:Fight on (Score:5, Funny)

        by GlobalEcho ( 26240 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @02:26PM (#60415591)

        and many drivers actually can make six figures.

        *Citation needed

        I think the six figures look like this:

        XXXX.XX

  • by Socguy ( 933973 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:01AM (#60414773)
    The problem that Uber and Lyft are facing is that they fundamentally haven't offered anything new, what they've essentially done is strip out some of the money that would otherwise go to the drivers by using the smokescreen of an app. This is more akin to what cabs use to be in the very early days and it was the problems with this system that the cab system evolved to fix. Now that the courts are starting to prevent Uber and Lyft from continuing to screw their employees out of money and benefits, the house of cards is starting to fall.
    • screw their employees out of money and benefits

      because the drivers dont want to work for uber but uber is forcing them to stay somehow. Its slavery.

      • This. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. People contract with Uber/Lyft/Grubhub, etc. because that's what they want to do. It's choice and California doesn't get a say in what sort of contract the companies make with their contractors. What's next, a construction general contractor will be required to force his subs to pay a certain wage? At what point does my business as a subcontractor/driver differ from a sub that does tile or plumbing?

    • The problem that Uber and Lyft are facing is that they fundamentally haven't offered anything new

      What about:

      1. Applying user reviews to individual drivers and riders
      2. Providing accurate ETAs for pickups
      3. Completely contactless payment
      4. Providing ride pricing before the ride starts
      5. Dynamically increasing the supply of rides based on demand (surge pricing)
      6. Ride pooling
      7. Allowing almost anyone with a car to easily make a few bucks
      8. In the case of Lyft, offering comprehensive multi-mode transport [masstransitmag.com]
      • Dynamically increasing the supply of rides based on demand (surge pricing) Allowing almost anyone with a car to easily make a few bucks

        Those are the only two things on your list that Uber/Lyft have innovated. Everything else was in place with the taxi companies prior to that. And it's not clear to me that those "innovations" benefit society at large.

        • by Pascoea ( 968200 )

          And it's not clear to me that those "innovations" benefit society at large

          So, you've never taken a cab then? And I'm not sure where you're from, but the few places that I've lived recently, their taxi companies didn't offer anything on that list. Once you were finally able to request a cab (by making a phone call) you'd get somewhat of an ETA, once they finally showed up (if they even did), you had no idea what the bill was going to be until you got to your destination, cash payment was required. And the "no benefit to society" is shot to shit as soon as you look at bar close.

      • after Uber left. They started up a public ride share business.

        If you look into it the crappy state of our public transportation had more to do with car dealers & companies lobbying to keep it crap than anything else.

        Oh, and all the tech that built those things didn't come from Uber. It was cell phones, GPS & Credit Card processors. What Uber brought to the table was a little thing called "Greyball". A system to detect when local law enforcement was on the prowl for illegal taxi cabs and prev
      • by Pascoea ( 968200 )
        Get out of here with all that and let the grumpy old man have his cabs.

      • Providing accurate ETAs for pickups
        Completely contactless payment
        Providing ride pricing before the ride starts

        Sounds like a minicab.

    • ...they fundamentally haven't offered anything new

      New things they offered:
      - An easy way for people to make a little extra money instead of sitting at home watching TV
      - A transportation service that doesn't blacklist specific neighborhoods
      - A transportation service that's not an exclusive cartel using artificial scarcity and government force to inflate prices beyond the ability of regular people to pay
      - A way to get a ride without making a phone call and waiting on hold

  • No take backs. You already said you'd leave.

  • Supid... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fish_in_the_c ( 577259 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:15AM (#60414805)

    The whole fight goes like this:
    Uber/Lyft: We provide short term convience for people to make extra spending cash , we employ no one. AKA, no one should be attempting to do this full time or make a living from it.

    California: You are not allowed to help people out by letting them make extra money on the side you need to employee them, or not help them at all.

    Uber/Lyft: Um, yeah, .... let me think about that.

    Californa: we are the government we have the gues Put up or Shut Up !.

  • by Kohath ( 38547 ) on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:20AM (#60414813)

    Whatever they do, tens of thousands of people will lose the income they used to get from giving people car rides. And millions of people will lose an economic transportation alternative.

    Rich people won't mind paying. And a very few other drivers will get slightly better -- but still not at all good -- paychecks.

    That's the governing model: help connected people and unions because they give the ruling class part of their union dues. Make everyone else poorer and take away things that make their lives better.

  • Sounds like they're just trading one manner of fucking over drivers with another. Reminds me of Amazon's efforts to franchise deliveries just so they don't have to pay a wage to the people delivering parcels, or sick days or for any work related injuries they might suffer.
    • If the drivers are getting "fucked" so much, then why don't they just work somewhere else?
      • by Kohath ( 38547 )

        Most of them do. Uber is (was) just a side gig for extra money. It worked because people could do it for a few hours whenever. Now they'll sit at home watching TV instead.

      • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

        If the drivers are getting "fucked" so much, then why don't they just work somewhere else?

        Where, exactly, is this "somewhere else?" A lot of them drive because they've been laid off and this is the only kind of work they can get easily/quickly.

  • - Public Transportation runs on grants
    - Legally run taxis are expensive per mile (and the cost is passed on to users)
    - Airlines operate on thin margins (funded by premium amenities)
    - Passenger Rail (Amtrak) is expensive per mile for the first 200 or so miles and slow due to sharing the same rail as freight

    Private automobile transportation is actually pretty expensive, as well. It doesn't seem like it because we have a HUGE multi-faceted industry that has evolved to facilitate and promote private automobile

    • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      I am not defending Uber or Lyft here. They have been scoff laws in all kinds of ways and I think whatever the rules are they should be followed by everyone or changed but I don't think we should miss-characterize the problem either. Before COVID-19 happened we had one of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. If ever there was time when folks had other options for low-skill irregular work this was until recently it, yet they were still choosing to drive for Uber. So if you don't think the rules sh

    • by Pascoea ( 968200 )

      Legally run taxis are expensive per mile (and the cost is passed on to users)

      In my experience, they end cost is close enough that a taxi isn't prohibitively expensive. I don't take Uber/Lyft because they are the cheapest, I take them because they are convenient and readily available. Maybe some taxi companies have caught up (I haven't tried iHail yet) but at this point I'm comfortable with Uber/Lyft, until they give me a reason to change.

    • The fossil fuel industry is only profitable because it is subsidized. That means it's not really profitable either, but collecting subsidies is.

  • The state can't have that happen.

  • Anyone remember the day when you could just walk out into the street, count to six, wave your hand in the air, and a random taxi pulled over for you? Anyone remember when that random taxi didn't need to be a part of any fleet?

    Remember how many people you used to be able to hire to do a job for you, and pay them directly?

    This adds yet another greasy palm between me and the person working for me. Between MY money and THEIR money. There's just no way that this can be any better for anyone that matters in th

  • How many of the people who actually drive for Uber and Lyft in California actually want to be considered employees with all the things that come from that (good and bad)?

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