How China Targets Scientists via Global Network of Recruiting Stations (wsj.com) 98
China is targeting top scientific and technological expertise in the U.S. and other advanced nations through an expanding network of 600 talent-recruitment stations world-wide, a new report partly funded by the U.S. State Department has found. From a report: U.S. officials have long warned that China uses recruitment programs to improperly obtain advanced technology. However, the research conducted by an Australian think tank details the little-known but elaborate infrastructure the Chinese Communist Party uses to recruit scientists from organizations such as Tesla and Harvard University through such programs. Beijing has denied attempting any systematic effort to steal U.S. scientific research, and Chinese state media have said the U.S. is using allegations of intellectual-property theft as a political tool. The Chinese embassy in Washington, D.C., didn't immediately respond to a request for comment. The talent programs, such as the Thousand Talents Plan, are supported by 600 recruitment stations in countries around the world. They include Germany, Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada and Japan, according to the report published by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank created by the Australian government. The U.S. has the most with at least 146 stations, the report said.
...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:3, Informative)
...Chinese Communist Party uses to recruit scientists from organizations such as Tesla and Harvard University through such programs. Beijing has denied attempting any systematic effort to steal U.S. scientific research...
Folks, one can ably replace "Chinese Communist Party" above with "United States' Government".
It's long established "Greed Card" program and HB1 Visa regimes have effectively fished smart minds from around the world. Do not take my word on face value.
You can read about it here. [bls.gov]
China is simply doing what the USA has done for a long time.
Re: (Score:3)
Except there are not millions of people clamoring to gain entry to Communist China.
Re: (Score:3)
That does make it a harder sell, but it's not otherwise a fundamentally different action.
You would have to be a spectacular idiot who gives no fucks about freedom to take them up on their offers.
But then, the USA has used foreign scientists to develop technologies to kill people before, so it's not like our hands are clean.
What the USA and China have in common is that our education systems are sufficiently degraded that we have to hire in talent.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Tell us who has run the Education system since the 60s.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Have you ever been to China? Especially as an ex-pat with lots of money you can live like a king. The big cities are very modern, loads of high end shopping with all the Western brands. They have Walmart too. Plenty of Western movies on at the cinema, plenty of Western food if you get homesick.
It doesn't feel oppressive. It feels like a country on the up actually, rapidly improving and if you talk to people they generally seem to think the government does a good job and protects them. I guess the propaganda
Re: (Score:2)
He is not a troll. China is like that. It is a rapidly growing economy, with government focused on growth and technology.
Re: (Score:3)
He is not a troll. China is like that. It is a rapidly growing economy, with government focused on growth and technology.
And genocide, and involuntary organ donors, and child slavery, and many other things.
you had me at bikini pool parties (Score:2)
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's really nothing like defecting to the USSR or whatever it is people imagine.
It's exactly like it. The privileged live well and everyone else is shit upon. And if they decide they don't like what you're saying, you get disappeared to a prison camp/Siberia or you get broken up for parts/served polonium tea. Sure, the same stuff can happen in the USA, and does, but the bar is higher.
Re: (Score:1)
You definitely haven't been.
Re: (Score:3)
I know people who have. You only see what they want you to see, or you disappear so you don't talk about it. If you're lucky, you don't see anything important, then they only exit ban [usatoday.com] you.
Re: (Score:1)
You should get a visa and go see for yourself.
Re: (Score:2)
Are you kidding? I've spent enough time complaining about China that I would not feel at all safe going there, even if I would have felt safe otherwise. Which I wouldn't.
I don't patronize genocidal fascism. There's enough of that here in the USA
Re: (Score:1)
I get it, I was the same when I first went there. I really expected it to be awful and like some kind of 3rd world or oppressive state but it really isn't. At least most of it isn't.
That's why the government has relatively little opposition. Most people like them and think they are doing a good job because their quality of life is improving rapidly.
As for patronage, I agree and wouldn't have gone if it were not for family reasons, but having met many more Chinese people now I realize that most of them are j
Re: (Score:2)
I got no beef with the average Chinese person, or group thereof. My problem is with their government.
For the record, I tell people not to come to the USA on holiday, either. It's irresponsible and dangerous.
Re: (Score:2)
bikini pool parties
I don't think you want to see me in a bikini.
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Have you ever been to China? Especially as an ex-pat with lots of money you can live like a king."
Unless you're black. The Chinese are the most anti-black racists on the planet.
Re: (Score:2)
Unless you're black. The Chinese are the most anti-black racists on the planet.
No problem. Just don't be black anymore. In China, this is how they do it [youtube.com].
Re: (Score:2)
"Have you ever been to China? Especially as an ex-pat with lots of money you can live like a king."
Unless you're black. The Chinese are the most anti-black racists on the planet.
Not disputing that many Chinese harbor racist attitudes toward black people. However, that's the case in many/most place in the world where there are very few black people. The US is no exception. How those anti-black attitudes manifest depends on the outward tolerance of the society to racism. It's just that in China, there are no laws or societal restraints to counter expression of racist attitudes. It's the same in the US that absent societal restraints to counter racist expression, blacks can be tr
Re: (Score:3)
What would happen to a group of BLM protestors in China?
Now explain to me again the moral equivalence between them and the US.
Re: (Score:2)
What would happen to a group of BLM protestors in China?
Now explain to me again the moral equivalence between them and the US.
Aggregate comparisons are always challenging and mostly useless. There is a wide distribution of racial attitudes in China and the US, as well as non-comparable environments. There haven't been George Floyd incidents in China mainly because there aren't many George Floyds in China.
Re: (Score:2)
I love the comrade leader, too!
Re: ...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:1)
I tried to attend a conference there a few years ago. Hassle upon hassle. One needs to apply for a visa, which involves a letter from a sponsoring company there and going to one of a very few consulate locations, or maybe paying an agency to take your passport and hope you get it back eventually. For lodging I had to fill in a spreadsheet with my credit card info and email it to someone, no direct billing.
AIUI once you get there, itâ(TM)s difficult to buy anything. Western hotels will take foreign
Re: (Score:2)
The visa requirements seem a lot easier than for the US, for example. I got a family visit visa quite easily, actually screwed up the first application but they kindly sent it back with a note stating how to fix it. That was the London consulate, didn't have to visit just did it by post. I seem to recall it was about 70 bucks, cheaper than a UK visa.
Once there we stayed at Chinese hotels and they accepted credit cards. The ATMs took my card too so I was able to withdraw cash. Even small shops took my cards
Re: (Score:2)
But at least the US government is much more constrained compared to China when acting against the individual. And there's a strong tradition of liberty among those who care for it, I don't think the same can be said for the land of Xi Jinping Thought.
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:4, Insightful)
How exactly is that even relevant? People aren't clamoring to get in to China, so they aren't allowed to advertise and recruit?
And how is recruiting top talent improperly gaining technology? Isn't that the exact opposite - isn't recruiting and paying smart people to do research the actual proper way to get technology? It seems that China getting technology is, by definition, improper to some people.
Re: (Score:2)
And how is recruiting top talent improperly gaining technology?
Soon people won't be able to walk down the street without being offered a job [youtube.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Totally agree. This is American greed and populism/nationalism. It is simply the attempt by the world's number one superpower to contain the rise of the number two superpower by bullying.
And in fact, it is not nothing new. The Americans, on the dawn of it industrialization, were the ones stealing technologies [jstor.org] as well as being sanctioned for apprehending talents from Great Britain and Europe. So this is also hypocrisy.
And history has shown, such sanctioning is not going to work. People will explore opportuni
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
OMG, this is actually kind of funny.
First of all:
1) that kind of plural usage is pretty common in many languages. Including French, which could make the poster Canadian for all you know.
2) In this context, it doesn't matter what he said in any other post.
3) What does it matter if the poster IS Chinese? No Chinese person is allowed to defend against allegations leveled against China? More than that, they weren't even allegations but nasty connotations placed on otherwise perfectly acceptable actions. So
Re: (Score:1)
If you've been on slashdot enough you'll start to notice "regulars", and especially in relation to certain topics (e.g., China).
If you follow any topic on China these days, pretty much on any forum on the internet, you often see a what are known as Wu-Mao:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Chinese, just as much as anyone else, are of course allowed to defend themselves. If you follow the who
Re: (Score:2)
I'm well aware of Wu-Mao. My point was the poster I was responding to was likely an American equivalent.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/z... [forbes.com]
What about Canada and Huawei's theft of Nortel's IP?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
As for America, you're talking about the 1800s, or as you would say in China - "Ancient Times". It's funny, isn't it, when China wants to ignore the past because it is not favorable to them they dismissively say "Oh that his a historical record" (i.e., not important, as they sta
Re: (Score:2)
China is looking primarily for Americans of Chinese origin who speak Mandarin. Don't forget that China is an ethnostate.
Re: (Score:2)
In some ways China has done the same as the US , in others completely different. The protectionist policies are what made the US big in the 19th century for instance. Sectors where were not competitive were allowed to develop while shielding competition.
But in the current situation the US policy has a large focus on copyright: make your products anywhere in the world but make sure it is you who gets rich. Apple can make everything in China but it is the US where the money goes. China has a history which is
Re: (Score:1)
But in the current situation the US policy has a large focus on copyright: make your products anywhere in the world but make sure it is you who gets rich. Apple can make everything in China but it is the US where the money goes. China has a history which is different. Steal technology everywhere.
Only if you regard knowledge like trade secrets, optimised designs, non-obvious solutions to problems, scientific findings etc, as property. As a farming analogy:
Alice ploughs her field, and her neighbour Bob watches her how exactly she does it, and takes notes. Then Alice plants potatoes, and again Bob watches & takes notes. Alice proceeds to add fertilizer, dust her crop with various chemicals, and again Bob takes notes. Come harvest time, Bob takes note of how it's done and what equipment is used.
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:4, Funny)
And then Bob runs off and patents the agricultural technology by adding 'using the Internet' to the claims.
Re: (Score:2)
It might have been clearer if I expanded on it but there is a difference in philosophy and I doubt if the Chinese would disagree if I say they steal technology everywhere. They might disagree with using a pejorative word for it. I can add that by now the Chinese also have become major generators of technology and ideas.
Don't accuse me of dishonesty.
There is a reasonable range where you can say you came up with the design , you get some protection while you benefit from it. If this range is stretched then it
Re: (Score:3)
Patents are relatively new in history because manufacturing is relatively new, but they have been around for almost as long as we've been making things.
https://onlinellm.usc.edu/blog... [usc.edu]
What is missing from your farming analogy is that Alice spent 10 years developing her process on several test fields. She has spent a great deal of money while Bob sat on his ass doing nothing but spying on Alice.
A better analogy is Alice's battery company spent $150 million developing a new chemistry and manufacturing proces
Re: (Score:1)
Alwin ran into a bit of a logical fallacy via over simplification. His analogy falls down in that Bob did not agree to abide to the patent system with which Alice filed her patent for her new method.
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you read the linked article? I doubt it.
American H1B programs are hiring people to work for companies in the USA.
The Chinese recruitment programs are not hiring these people for positions in Chinese companies. It would be fine if they did that, and no one is complaining when it does happen.
The problem is that China is paying researchers to remain at their posts at Harvard or suchlike places in order to take R&D and secretely send it to China.
It is OK for people in the USA to participate in China's 1,000 talent program. They can even lie about their participation to everyone they know.
But if they lie about it while taking grant money from the USA, then they are violating the law.
That is what this is about, it's about a supposed Chinese government program to steal R&D. Whether or not China is doing that is the question.
Re: (Score:2)
...Chinese Communist Party uses to recruit scientists from organizations such as Tesla and Harvard University through such programs. Beijing has denied attempting any systematic effort to steal U.S. scientific research...
Folks, one can ably replace "Chinese Communist Party" above with "United States' Government".
It's long established "Greed Card" program and HB1 Visa regimes have effectively fished smart minds from around the world. Do not take my word on face value. You can read about it here. [bls.gov]
China is simply doing what the USA has done for a long time.
Your reply is just totally wrong there, are you saying Uyghurs concentration camps doesn't exists? Since when USA build such education camps like China does ? Did USA do ethnic cleansing like China does ? At least USA have a bit more of moral standard and know when to stop. Did you make an attempt and stand up against China ?
Re: (Score:1)
...are you saying Uyghurs concentration camps doesn't exists?
Guantanamo; yes, you read that right! And folks being held without due process. Argument from the US of A is: They do not qualify for one!! I will bite. It's not the exact same thing/situation but for folks inside, it smells/tastes the same.
Guess we are are just taking sides that will not come to a mutual understanding; and
Did USA do ethnic cleansing like China does
USA's "ethnic cleansing" is happening at its southern border despite USA having signed the UN Refugee Convention....
Yeah, right south of border camps who seek refugee vs the rightful people who own the land got sent to concentration camp. Your refusal of admitting facts simply amazes me.
Re: (Score:2)
Sadly, We did do forced re-education in America well into the 1900's for Native Americans. Their children were taken and placed in boarding schools where they were forbidden to speak their Native language or engage in cultural practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re:...So, which is it, exactly? (Score:5, Informative)
let's be honest here, recruiting staff is NOT the allegation against China.
The accusation against China is that they target scientist IN ORDER to steal technology. As in China goes up to an engineer working for Tesla and says, come work for us and can you bring the Tesla 3 design with you?
I don't know if the allegation is true or not. But this is just not true of the US looking for smart labor. Smart labor is a global limited pool and everyone tries to get the top minds. That's fair game. The allegation is that China is using this to systematically steal technology.
Re: (Score:1)
It is worse than that.
China is not saying "come work for us". They are saying " keep working where you are and give us the results of the research being done there".
And uh, oh here's a "reward" for joining our club.
Re: (Score:2)
China is simply doing what the USA has done for a long time.
What China is doing is more like the US "stealing" German scientists after WW2. The vast majority of US green card recipients are educated and gain experience in the US. China doing what the US is doing would entail something like enticing promising American students to study at Chinese universities and then giving them above average jobs.
Re: (Score:2)
H1B and O1 have enabled people from over the world to continue their work in the US, were their own countries were unwilling to fund it. Being European, I can tell you that the brain drain is not he US fault. It is caused by lack of understanding for the role of finance in funding tech and engineering. The EU can full all the research it want, but if there is no investment capital to later fund the work of the PhDs, they will go abroad.
China simply provides money and lures people with money, like the US doe
Re: (Score:3)
Lol. China's pitch: "Come and work in China. We'll give you lots of money, a good budget and cutting edge equipment in your own lab. We respect expertise."
Western universities' pitch: "We want the best of the best to come and work at 2/3 of what you'd make in industry on a two year contract. Must acquire own funding. Submit CV, five year research plan, first grant application and three references. Candidates will not be contacted unless successful. PS: we'll probably cancel this search after you've done all
Re: (Score:1)
Recruiting is not stealing.
Re: (Score:2)
Whataboutism...
NEXT!
Welcome Scientist vs Discrediting them. (Score:5, Interesting)
In America there is a culture around discrediting actual Scientists (vs tangential professions such as Engineering). So for people who really wants to research a particular field, America isn't so much a land of opportunity for them. As Americas version of opportunity is centered around making the most money. So if a particular study doesn't directly connect to making a product to sell, they are often seen by Americans as a waste of human potential.
There are a lot of people who are more willing to live under China Communist leadership in order for them to follow their real passions. They are not necessarily happy about the Chinese Government, however for them their research is more important. And if you want to study and research a topic, and get paid enough to live comfortably what is the real difference of having the Chinese Government profiting off your ideas. Or just some Billionaire.
Money is a tool, to help maintain a life style and get the goods and services you do not have the resources to provide yourself. However in America we see the money as the only factor in success or failure. However there are other things that we need, such as respect, that the current American Society isn't giving to scientists.
Now here is the interesting thing. A lot of science will not become a product to sell. However it is difficult to figure out what new finding becomes a feature of a product vs just an interesting piece of trivia. Either way it is up to the Engineers to use the things that scientists have discovered and implement it into a product.
A farmer may grow Onions knowing that a lot of people will pick the product they spent their career cultivating out of the foods, and toss them away, because they just hate Onions. It isn't up to the farmer to say how the food is prepared and who would like it or not.
Re: (Score:3)
There is the visa situation too. Making it harder to come and study or in the US doesn't make it more attractive. Visas have to include families and have a path to citizenship too, most people don't want to leave their families behind and go work in a country for a few years then leave.
America has an advantage because English is the official language but in China a lot of scientific work is done in English anyway.
Re: (Score:3)
They are not necessarily happy about the Chinese Government
Especially when they end up being arrested and/or murdered [voanews.com] for going against the Communist Government.
Re: (Score:2)
Like people with US Visa's are not afraid of ICE knocking on their door. Because their Application had been rejected for stupid reasons, like their job title doesn't quite match the job that they are doing.
China isn't a 100% wonderful place, but 'Merica isn't #1 either.
The thing is, if you are a guest in an other country, it is probably best that you don't try to cause problems, and play by the rules.
If you visit someones house and they ask you to take off your shoes, even though you don't do that at your h
Re:Welcome Scientist vs Discrediting them. (Score:4)
Deported because your Visa Application expired or was denied.
Arrested and jailed and/or murdered for going against the government.
Holy fucking shit, you think those are the same?
Re: (Score:2)
But just like America, China is only interested in science that supports their propaganda.
A scientist that researches China's pollution practices, human rights violations, etc is going to get much worse than discreditation. They will simply disappear.
Re: (Score:2)
When actual scientists cross from doing actual science into doing actual politics they are going to be attacked. Scientists should be separated from politics, unfortunately they simply aren't. For example a number of medical universities are now including classes in global warming. While global warming is certainly relevant if you are a climate scientist, it doesn't have anything to do with a medical doctor or medical researcher.
https://www.aamc.org/news-insi... [aamc.org]
Here's another example of engineering schools
Re: (Score:2)
It isn't that politics is in science, it is more that certain parts of political parties treat science like everything else, i.e., grist for whatever is floating their boat. Add a bit of the intertubes and social media, and everybody thinks their opinion is somehow on a par with advances in a particular branch of science.
Re: (Score:2)
It's both actually. There absolutely is politics in science and political parties tend to pick and choose the parts of science they like and ignore those that they don't. I'm a firm believer in the separation of science and politics. I't like to see an absolute separation of the two, unfortunately I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
Why did we allow this? (Score:3)
Would any sane nation let it's adversary's intelligence agencies live on it's university campuses?
Should we let a totalitarian dictatorship continue to oppress it's people when they're on our soil? Isn't the whole idea of letting Chinese students study in the US the opportunity to show them what a free and open society looks like, without them having to be afraid that their government is still watching?
Why do we let China build centers on our campuses to facilitate oppression, theft, and subversion?
Re: (Score:3)
There may well be something underhanded about this, but the summary at least doesn't say what it would be.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
If you have family in China, Chinese students are always watched and always subject to, "a small request".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Simple answer ... money!
In the past, if a chinese students association wanted to build a 'cultural exchange' building and offered to pay the university handsomely for doing so, which vice chancellor could turn it down. Or maybe they could sponsor a laboratory and send some students along paying big fat fees to help develop some new ideas.
The Chinese government has effectively got an unlimited bankroll and can afford to spend a few billion to acquire the best ideas from around the world. Money talks, and in
Re: (Score:2)
The notion of proprietary let alone national security information at a university is somewhat of an unholy alliance. But, as you say, money.
Re: (Score:2)
"Have we ever allowed a foreign nation to build outposts at our universities? "
Don't be afraid, Europe got twice as many of them. Australia even more.
How could this happen? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, let's see...
One government sees the value of science and scientific discovery, funding research and development, and is not encumbered by, for example, a religious sect that feels that some types of research is based on unborn babies and constitutes some form of abortion which is a no-no.
The other government has a leader at the top that effectively shuns and even ridicules scientists when their findings do not conform with his own world view. Some people of this nation, mostly followers of said leader, pick up from there and will do things such as sending death threats to scientists for daring to contradict the glorious leader. Scientists in this nation are limited as to what they can research, especially in medical areas, if the research conflicts or even touches on religious dogma. Stem cell research with newly acquired cells? No way, you killed a baby to get that. Some genetic research? Nope, you're tampering with God's design.
Oh, and also in this nation, you might find that your scientific research is allowed under one legislative party, but when the other comes to power, not only might your research be banned, but you might just end up being labelled a criminal for having conducted it under the previous administration.
So if you're a scientist, you tell me. Which of these nations would you want to do your work in?
How could Mengele happen? (Score:3)
"So if you're a scientist, you tell me. Which of these nations would you want to do your work in?"
Definitely Nazi Germany.
Re: (Score:2)
and is not encumbered by, for example, a religious sect that feels that some types of research is based on atoms and things with the word 'nuclear' in it
FTFY.
Tough choice (Score:2)
Well, let's see...
One government sees the value of science and scientific discovery, funding research and development, ....
The other government has a leader at the top that effectively shuns and even ridicules scientists....
So if you're a scientist, you tell me. Which of these nations would you want to do your work in?
Well, neither sounds all that good, but I would probably choose the one without forced sterilization and concentration camps [bbc.com]. I am unsettled by how willing the world seems to let that go.
The problem with a mobile workforce (Score:2)
The talent programs, such as the Thousand Talents Plan, are supported by 600 recruitment stations in countries around the world.
So nothing more that a re-run of the 1960's brain drain [ukdataservice.ac.uk]. Except that the talent is moving east not west.
Re: (Score:2)
Except it sounds like they aren't hiring engineers to come work in Shanghai. They are recruiting them as contacts to make off with US company technology once they get hired on here.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with them stealing Tesla's self-driving tech. That will result in lowering the Chinese population and some hilarious videos as well.
Re:The problem with a mobile workforce (Score:4, Insightful)
They aren't recruiting westerners, they are recruiting expats to leak trade secrets all the while the flow of new expats from east to west continues uninterrupted.
It's a state funded industrial espionage campaign on a ridiculous scale for a country allowed free trade under the WTO and mass immigration to the west. A cold war has been going between China and the west for decades, the west just wasn't even fighting.
It's called recruitment? (Score:2)
Google has a global network of recruitment stations to recruit people from places like Harvard University, Tesla... and also Peking University, Tencent, etc.
Many large companies recruit talent, including with knowledge of their previous work in another place, globally.
Governments do it too.
The US State department is just trying to think they, and the companies in their country, are exceptional and what they do is always fine.
Just one question (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Can I work remotely? I've been consulting off and on for decades, and as long as I can work from home and don't have to move, I care little who signs my paycheck.
Don't you worry about the latency, remoting all the way in to China?
Re: (Score:2)
How Much are They Paying? (Score:1)
And how much are they paying?
(I guest it is because I'm not a scientist, either.)