College Enrollments Are Falling in the US -- Except For Graduate Degrees (qz.com) 59
One of the more worrying aspects of the Covid-19 pandemic in the US is its effect on undergraduate enrollments. From a report: Over the summer there were indications, through student loan data and Census surveys, that students were either dropping out or not enrolling in previous numbers. For some students, particularly those from low-income and minority families, the financial and logistical challenges posed by the pandemic were too much to overcome. Now we have an early glimpse of actual enrollment figures from 629 US colleges (or about 22%) that reported their data to the National Student Clearinghouse, a nonprofit that collects information for universities. The data, which compare the same colleges from 2019 to 2020, go through Sept. 10, and were reported Sept. 24.
Undergraduate enrollments are indeed falling, particularly for two-year associate degrees and certificates, which are often options for students unable to afford four-year institutions. But for graduate programs, enrollments are surging as new graduates delay entering the job market and newly unemployed college graduates seek to burnish their skills and credentials with an advanced degree. The graduate option seeing the most growth is a post-baccalaureate certificate (or "postbac"), a non-degree credential often pursued by students looking to switch disciplines, like a humanities major who wants to apply to medical school. The exception are professional degrees, like in business and law, which have declined slightly.
Undergraduate enrollments are indeed falling, particularly for two-year associate degrees and certificates, which are often options for students unable to afford four-year institutions. But for graduate programs, enrollments are surging as new graduates delay entering the job market and newly unemployed college graduates seek to burnish their skills and credentials with an advanced degree. The graduate option seeing the most growth is a post-baccalaureate certificate (or "postbac"), a non-degree credential often pursued by students looking to switch disciplines, like a humanities major who wants to apply to medical school. The exception are professional degrees, like in business and law, which have declined slightly.
Is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
My experience was that the amount of students going to college far exceeded the amount of actual academics that should have been going to college. Many were "forced" by social pressure or family, while having no desire or motivation for academia.
Maybe people are finally waking up the fact that earning worthless degrees (you know which ones) that land you a job as a barista after 4 years and 50k of debt aren't worth it?
Hopefully we see a resurgence of trade schools and increase in trade workers. They make a great living and incur little debt. Win-win.
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Plus, trade schools churn out people who actually do real work in the real world. Versus liberal arts colleges churning out libtards who are ill-prepared to live in any world other than perhaps UBI fastasy land.
Re:Is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Having worked with those who graduated from Trade Schools vs Graduated from College, I have not found any real correlation to your assertion that Trade Schools hire more capable workers than from Liberal Arts Majors.
When they start working, both have a lot to learn about the Job. Most of the stuff during Trade School is useless as the business tries to do something that gives them a Competitive Advantage. While the Trade School teaches them what the Average Job would be. Liberal Art Students who were actual students, not just spending their time in college to get the paper. Come in to the job knowing they have a lot to learn, and they are often a bit quicker learning it, even with perhaps some skills further behind the Trade Student.
When hiring, If they went to Trade School or College, isn't a major factor. Other than it tells me how to approach them for training.
Trade School Workers Often work better on being told what to do, and over time they get on board. Liberal Art Workers work better when you work with them to think on why and how we do things, where we come to the point where our way makes sense, and they follow the right way.
Not knowing the difference can create a lot of problems. Where many of the Stereotypes come into play, of the Dumb Trade School guy who can't think for themselve. And the Entitled Liberal Art who never just does the job they need to do.
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Re:Is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Funny)
Was this post machine-translated from German?
No, the article is the bad thing ommitting facts (Score:1)
/. editors check some facts:
1) The number of 18-24 year old college aged people in the USA has been declining for the last few years. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/d... [ed.gov]
2) This decline in the primary customers of college degrees results in a decline in enrollment
2014 population 18-24 year old 31.420 million
2019 population 18-24 year old 30.362 million
That is a 3.3% decline in 5 years with more declines to come.
The baby boomer's kids are now beyond primary college age.
Re: Is this a bad thing? (Score:1)
Don't be mean and call them libtards. Call them what they really are - Marxists.
need trade schools that are not tied to degrees (Score:4, Insightful)
need trade schools that are not tied to degrees as with some you may pay for 0.5-2.0 years of non trade based stuff to fit into the degree system.
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My experience was that the amount of students going to college far exceeded the amount of actual academics that should have been going to college. Many were "forced" by social pressure or family, while having no desire or motivation for academia.
Maybe people are finally waking up the fact that earning worthless degrees (you know which ones) that land you a job as a barista after 4 years and 50k of debt aren't worth it?
Hopefully we see a resurgence of trade schools and increase in trade workers. They make a great living and incur little debt. Win-win.
I think preparation is a big thing too. College is pretty sink or swim, no easing into it, just jump in the deep end. At least engineering college is that way. I now have a Master's degree in Computer Science with honors and continuing studies researching in CS while working full time, but I nearly sank multiple times in college. I feel like a lot of the intent in college is to weed out those not willing to push through and achieve a degree, but it seems like more could be done to prepare people to basi
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Those 100 level classes were always a killer for me. Even by my Senior Year.
Taught by professors who don't care about the topic, but kina have to because someone needs to teach the intro courses. Who often forget that many of the students themselves are not taking the class because they want to but because they have to. Creating a lousy dynamic.
Students coming from different states education systems, so many principals will need to be taught over again, while boring other students to death, because they may
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Those 100 level classes were always a killer for me. Even by my Senior Year.
Taught by professors who don't care about the topic, but kina have to because someone needs to teach the intro courses. Who often forget that many of the students themselves are not taking the class because they want to but because they have to. Creating a lousy dynamic.
Students coming from different states education systems, so many principals will need to be taught over again, while boring other students to death, because they may had mastered it years in advance.
The University doesn't want them to be considered easy classes for grade bumping, so the professor makes them much harder.
100 level required classes are the worse, because you work your butt off for a class that you really don't have much care for. By my Junior and Senior year I learned the trick of taking them Pass/Fail while you need above a 2.0 to pass, it allowed me time to work on my more interesting classes than caring about if this stupid class that I am taking will kill my GPA. However it took me a while to get that into my head. Thinking that I need to Earn my GPA with every class I took, and any failure was because I wasn't working hard enough was too much, and you need to be smarter to do well in college, and use the tools of the game to your advantage.
A lot of truth to what you say. In addition to that, my college decided that regardless of your engineering focus, all students should have 100 level classes in mechanical, manufacturing, electrical and computer science, starting with the first two. Most of mechanical and manufacturing was drafting... I suck at anything that involves a pencil, I'm excellent with anything that involves a keyboard... drafting was by hand. On top of that was calc 1, chemistry 1, freshmen engineering 101 and one other class
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I failed until too late to learn one of the biggest lessons of college: Some things are not worth the effort.
This was over 30 years ago, so things may have changed, but my biggest time sink wasn't the 100 level classes, it was the Labs. I would spend as much time (sometimes more) working on lab reports for a 1 hour class than I spent studying the material for the 3 hour main course. Granted, the lab itself was fun, but in the late 80's it took a lot of effort to do the reports that were formatted well eno
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The point of a college degree is not what you learn.
#1) At the higher level schools it's who you meet.
#2) At all schools, it shows a potential employee you are a person who can take on a brutal 4 year project which required you to learn many tasks involving new disciplines and knowledge sets very quickly while balancing all of them so none failed pulling all nighters if you must. This means the business can have some confidence when it commits 10 million dollars to a project you are going to head up. They
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The point of a college degree is not what you learn.
#1) At the higher level schools it's who you meet.
#2) At all schools, it shows a potential employee you are a person who can take on a brutal 4 year project which required you to learn many tasks involving new disciplines and knowledge sets very quickly while balancing all of them so none failed pulling all nighters if you must. This means the business can have some confidence when it commits 10 million dollars to a project you are going to head up. They know you are going to be able to learn what you need to succeed quickly and that you are not very likely to walk away when it gets tough.
Agreed, but it feels like the switch from high school to college is a bit too abrupt. Some way to transition more gradually into sheer insanity would help many students get into the college mindset, rather than a freshman being dumped right into the deep end.
Re: Is this a bad thing? (Score:2)
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#1) At the higher level schools it's who you meet.
By paying for an Ivy League school this year, you get to Zoom with some people who might be potentially important in the future.
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The thing is, you don't need to be selective for most jobs on what the person Major was in College. If the Job is Engineering or Science the Major may be a bit more important as they may be a lot of detail information a person should know before they take the job. But for other jobs, they are going to be trained anyways and the Major isn't that big of deal.
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My experience was that the amount of students going to college far exceeded the amount of actual academics that should have been going to college. Many were "forced" by social pressure or family, while having no desire or motivation for academia. [...] Hopefully we see a resurgence of trade schools and increase in trade workers.
In that case the numbers show the worst case scenario, because the drop in Bachelor's degree enrollment was negligible (looked like around 1% in the chart) while the drop in Associate / Certificate programs took steeper drops (around 10%). So the very trade school and similar programs which you are hoping people flock to are exactly where the drops in enrollment are occurring.
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"... particularly for two-year associate degrees and certificates, which are often options for students unable to afford four-year institutions"
This isn't really about the more expensive universities. Many of these two year schools are the cheaper "Community college" variety which also have trade programs. Historically, enrollment increases at these schools during economic downturns. For better or worse, this pandemic is breaking old patterns.
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My experience with trade schools is they also churn out many baristas and also leave them with huge deb (low 5 figure, not high 5 figure but they usually can't afford it)
To reform schools, we need to make college debt subject to bankruptcy again. Then people won't lend 50,000 dollars of unforgivable to 19 year olds. And too many dollars pursuing too few degrees won't bid up tuition costs.
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40% population is telling us how much we suck. (Score:5, Interesting)
Here is the thing. I am a big fan of the idea of huge increases and improvement in Vocational Training Including a lot of Jobs that currently ask for a College Degree. As I feel we are letting a lot of Good Employees Slip by the Cracks, because they are just not College Material. A Talented Programmer may not do well writing research papers. Or someone qualified to be a RN having to Pass Calculus. The High School System in general has failed to promote Vocational Training as an acceptable life choice and decision. Often using it as a threat, If you don't do well on this test, you wont get into college and will need to go to the local HVAC school to learn how to do such as belittling job (Even though they may get paid more than the teachers salary, and having a job that you get a feeling of accomplishment at the end of the day, where you are on your feet and getting exercise)
However there is a rising and increasingly vocal group of Anti-Intellectuals shunning Young Adults who go to college, are afraid that somehow those LiBeRaL professors will brainwash them to be Liberals themselves. That you will not be able to get any work from college and be in debt all your life. While yes in college a student is exposed to a wider world view which tends to lean more left than that rural neighborhood they came from, and the students find that those people who your parents told you are Lazy Subversives, are just as hard working, and willing to learn as anyone else. May turn on your opinion on your parents political view. As well the cost of colleges does indeed create a lot of debt more than I feel it should. It isn't normally sinking debt, as students will indeed pay it off, and live the rest of their lives better due to average higher salaries.
Having an uneducated Labor Pool will no longer work in the United States, you no longer can just get a job and support your family. You need to be educated and have a career path planned so you can adapt to the changes. For a lot of people they are angry because they are being left behind, not because of Government rules, or automation. But from the Invisible Hand of Capitalism where the Demand of Uneducated Workers is dropping, while the Supply isn't lowering enough to match.
The Problem we had a few years ago, where Companies couldn't find people to fill in jobs, isn't necessarily from a lack of applicants, but from lack of qualified applicants. Passing Drug Tests, Being able to keep their hours, ability to do their jobs...
A college degree does say something about an Employee. At the very least they know how to work in the system, deal with work to get where they need to go.
Wider world view is less liberal, not more. (Score:2, Insightful)
a wider world view which tends to lean more left
The "wider would view" is still composed of non-city dwellers which tend to lean more right than left. It's only in the major metro areas you find a preponderance of people that are more leftward focused. So when considering the entire population of a country or the Earth itself, you are going to have people generally leaning to be a bit less liberal.
As far as college goes, I do find it useful to be exposed too a range of ideas, how can you really decide wh
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I think that the biggest problem in the USA today is that the minority of people feel entitled to (and actually have) an outsized influence over national politics.
You are in a minority, get over it.
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The biggest problems with colleges today is the strong leftward focus and massive levels of intolerance, mean that you will only get one side of an issue and thus will fold like a cheap card table when someone who knows what they are talking about argues something counter to what you have learned.
There's a lot of this in colleges. But extreme right-wing colleges also exist. And there's a lot of extremism and intolerance outside of colleges. And it's clear that extremism and massive levels of intolerance are abundantly present on both the right and the left.
Those on either the right or the left who believe that intolerance only exists on the other side are delusional.
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There's a lot of this in colleges. But extreme right-wing colleges also exist.
Much less of a problem since popular culture is awash in liberal points of view on various subjects.
Also from what I have seen, more conservative minded professors actually welcome debate on any point to present another side, whereas in a liberal class you may well get kicked out of class (or possibly expelled) for disagreeing with the teacher.
Those on either the right or the left who believe that intolerance only exists on the ot
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The people who sit around screaming for UBI are not hard working.
A direct lie and an insult. I am very much in favor of an UBI, yet I completely support my self with quite a bit to spare. According you you, people like me should not exist. The difference between me and you is that I have compassion for those less fortunate in their talents that cannot find any good jobs or any jobs at all. You are just a self-centered jackass.
Shocked (Score:4, Funny)
I'm SHOCKED, I tell you. I just can't believe that people don't want to spend $200,000 for half-assed online classes taught by ill-prepared, incompetent, and uncaring teaching assistants and run by department heads who think "the internet" is just some fad and can't understand why people are having so much trouble learning the material. It just amazes me that these kids don't want to be saddled with 30-40 years of crushing debt with dismal post-grad job prospects. What the hell is wrong with them, anyway?
Cost (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe... just maybe... the astronomical costs along with predatory loans that take 30+ years to pay off are the reason!?
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Maybe... just maybe... the astronomical costs along with predatory loans that take 30+ years to pay off are the reason!?
Maybe people need to understand cost != return when it comes to college? I paid for my college at the state university I went to by working full time every other semester in a low paying internship. OK, I also lived at home which helped, and not everyone lives near a state college, but there are good colleges in places without exorbitant cost of living.
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Maybe... just maybe... the astronomical costs along with predatory loans that take 30+ years to pay off are the reason!?
Maybe people need to understand cost != return when it comes to college? I paid for my college at the state university I went to by working full time every other semester in a low paying internship. OK, I also lived at home which helped, and not everyone lives near a state college, but there are good colleges in places without exorbitant cost of living.
"I got a paid internship, while still at school, and free housing, must be that everyone else is lazy!"
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Maybe... just maybe... the astronomical costs along with predatory loans that take 30+ years to pay off are the reason!?
Maybe people need to understand cost != return when it comes to college? I paid for my college at the state university I went to by working full time every other semester in a low paying internship. OK, I also lived at home which helped, and not everyone lives near a state college, but there are good colleges in places without exorbitant cost of living.
"I got a paid internship, while still at school, and free housing, must be that everyone else is lazy!"
The college I went to made sure at least 95% of the students worked internships during college, getting students the work was part of the degree. Without that, working half time at the local grocery store and half time on college would pay almost the same as the internship and get through schooling at about the same speed.
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The college I went to made sure at least 95% of the students worked internships during college, getting students the work was part of the degree. Without that, working half time at the local grocery store and half time on college would pay almost the same as the internship and get through schooling at about the same speed.
I'd love to know what school, and even what year, all this is for that math to add up.
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This was 20 years ago now that I started college, but current estimated costs are here: https://www.gvsu.edu/financial... [gvsu.edu]
Yearly tuition of $13,244 for local residents (like I say, I'm basing it on attending from home) means Walmart's average hourly rate (https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Walmart.com/Hourly_Rate) would pay for tuition while working 20 hours a week. Taking a bit over half the courses and doing college year round (I had a couple full time summer semesters, half semester courses ar
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And it isn't the only choice around here, MSU isn't much more expensive, if you live in state: https://admissions.msu.edu/cos... [msu.edu]
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I don't think that's what he was saying at all. His point wasn't that "everyone else is lazy". his point was that people aren't engaging in the right sort of thinking that would guide them towards the best outcome. Instead of weighing the costs and realizing that they can get an education that's 90% as good as their #1 choice at a fraction of the cost elsewhere, or else recognizing that if they really want to go to their #1 school they'll need to make sacrifices like working full-time to fund their own way,
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I had no help from my parents. Poor family, no gran
Does this year even count? (Score:2)
It's kind of a shit-show, if there were ever a year to declare a gap year, this is the one. Nowhere to go, but beats the alternatives.
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I need to agree. Working on my businesses analytics. 2020 seems to be synonymous with Outlier data.
online learning is retarded (Score:1)
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For most kids, Education is only a small part of the College Scene.
It is about them living on their own (In a protected environment) making decisions that will not have them grounded or have to explain to Mom and Dad your actions all the time. Meet people who you are attracted to, go off on parties, get into some small trouble, learn you way out of that trouble.
College has changed (Score:2)
No shit. In other news, politicians lie. (Score:3)
It's GREED, stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)
When Notre Dame is (last I heard, maybe they've gotten sane) charging FULL tuition for effectively online zoom courses, is anyone surprised by the idea that people are reluctant to pay for something that they can get at Khan Academy?
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I even get that.
The connections you make at Harvard or Yale HAVE VALUE, sure (I'm not sure I'd agree with the college how MUCH, but I agree there's a value).
The point being: if you're taking your classes by zoom, you're not getting that value much at all EITHER.
Community colleges (Score:2)
Community colleges and their two-year associates degrees provide a very cost-effective way to get a 4-year degree, by transferring into the 4-year institution as a junior.
It's an excellent way to get an education with only about half the debt load (live at home, tuition is much lower while at community college).
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Because what we need is more Teaching Assistants (Score:1)
The US educational program has so much dumbed down students that an undergraduate degree has not been needed in 20 years to be a successful professional, or a business owner, or a founder, or a Mark Zuckerberg, or a Bill Gates.
The graduate programs turn out TAs that allow the professors not to attend their own classes, and provide a mediocre level of education. That's because that's what THEY got. See above on undergraduate degree.
Finally a graduate student that works up above TA level to go for a doctora
Party! (Score:1)
all remote isn't worth $N K .... (Score:2)
Putting aside meta issues such as "all students suddenly realizing that a liberal arts degree isn't worth $N K in loans", let's assume students are somewhat rational (albeit uneducated) actors. Given that COVID constraints include all or mostly remote classes AND a cessation of their favored social events (sports, large parties, etc.) why would they borrow money to not get either an education or fun?
IF enrollment remains dramatically lower AFTER the COVID restrictions are widely and generally lifted, then w
yep (Score:1)