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United Kingdom Government

Support Grows For Universal Basic Income Trials in UK (msn.com) 177

On the U.K. political scene, support may be growing for new tests of a Univerisal Basic Income. The Guardian reports: A cross-party group of MPs has called on the government to allow councils to run universal basic income trials in response to mass unemployment triggered by the Covid-19 pandemic. A letter to the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, signed by more than 500 MPs, lords and local councillors says pilot schemes are urgently needed as the pandemic unleashes widespread economic disruption and drives up redundancies at the fastest rate on record this winter...

"We must trial innovative approaches which create an income floor for everyone, allowing our families and communities to thrive. The pandemic has shown that we urgently need to strengthen our social security system. The creation of a universal basic income (UBI) — a regular and unconditional cash payment to every individual in the UK — could be the solution," the letter states.

One UBI option flagged by the group would be to launch an initial £48 per week payment. [Roughly $62.08 in U.S. dollars] Demands for such an intervention have gathered pace since the onset of Covid-19 as governments around the world increase spending to help businesses and workers. There have been UBI trials in Finland and Scotland in recent years.

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Support Grows For Universal Basic Income Trials in UK

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  • One UBI option flagged by the group would be to launch an initial £48 per week payment. [Roughly $62.08 in U.S. dollars]

    $62 US/week? That works out to just over $3,000 US/year - that's pretty flipping "BASIC".

      • They are not paying UK prices for stuff though.

      • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        Well, about half the worlds population, or 3.5 billion people, live on roughly that per year already

        What a fascinating and irrelevant point - Is everyone in the UK going to move to the third-world to maximize their spending power?

        And if they do move, are they still entitled to collect the UK Universal Basic Income?

        • Is everyone in the UK going to move to the third-world to maximize their spending power?

          It is not a bad idea. Retirement income will go much further in a poor country.

          I know Americans that have retired in Mexico and in the Philippines. There are dedicated ex-pat communities in both countries.

      • by ranton ( 36917 )

        The world's average salary in PPP dollars is $17,750 per year. [bbc.com] This is still a little less than half the average salary in the UK, but still far above $3000 per year. Nearly six times less in fact.

      • Yes - and soon, more than half - if the World Economic Forum chief has his way with "the great reset"

    • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Sunday November 01, 2020 @06:54PM (#60673230) Journal
      Sigh. £48 / week is not UBI. $500 a week to a hand picked group of 200 people is not UBI either. All these so called trials are rather meaningless. And if UBI ends up being the same amount as being on the dole, with the same amount being given to working people but taken away again in extra taxes, then it’ll change very little. Except a few more people choosing not to work at all (meaning they’ll work gigs off the books) if it basically amounts to dole money without any questions asked. Which means a few more other people with have to work that much harder to raise that money.

      UBI is probably what we will have in a society where most human labour will truly have become obsolete. But we’re not there yet by a long shot. And these trials don’t bring much in the way of comfort about what that UBI will turn into, eventually. What will we be granted, by whomever calls the shots by then, and by whomever will end up being the man behind the curtain? As little as they can get away with, that’s for sure. And eventually they’ll do away with us unproductive poor folk as well, maybe by mixing a contraceptive in our coke and totalcakes (for those who get the reference).

      UBI represents governmental control over the recipients (which will be everyone), whether it’s working folk or unemployed. And we’ve already seen a few hideous examples of how that can wreck people’s lives (in the Netherlands we’ve had tens of thousands of lives wrecked when Internal Revenue suddenly declared child day care subsidy payouts to be incorrect, demanding the money to be paid back often going well into 5 figure amounts, knowing full well that the families involved were actually entitled to that money. When they take your income and give it back in subsidies, they own you). The real challenge when it comes to UBI is: how do we turn that payment from a stipend into a dividend, paid to a citizen holding an ownership share that entitles him to said dividend? Sounds a bit Marxist perhaps, but solving that question means the difference between being a dependent on a handout, and being a free citizen.
  • You could fund that if you scrapped every other social program including university and college subsidies. This might seem like an amazing idea. College isn't a path to the white collar middle class, being above average was always the path and a college degree was a a "tell". However if everyone has one then it just becomes the minimum bar for HR departments to screen on. So jobs that would never need a university degree suddenly need one just for the interview. UBI would also help with seasonal work.
    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      48GBP a week is completely pointless when it is a fraction of the cost of living.

      • 48GBP a week is completely pointless when it is a fraction of the cost of living.

        UBI is supposed to be a top-up. It isn't supposed to be a sole source of income.

        I doubt if many struggling people would consider 48GBP per week to be "pointless".

        • The person you are replying to is the reason we will never have UBI. Also, in Canada 48 pounds would be nearly $85. You can easily live on $85 a week if you have roommates* and cook your own food. Basically no one is going to freeze or starve to death if they only get $85. If they want any more than that though they will have to earn it

          *roommates and you don't get to live in downtown Vancouver or Toronto..
          • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

            Sounds like the cost of living is a lot less in Canada than the UK then, in most of the UK you won't get a room in a shared house for 48GBP never-mind food or any other bills.

        • by kenh ( 9056 )

          When you fund the 48 pounds by cancelling their welfare benefits, they will - loudly.

          Oh, wait, you think this will be a new entitlement, on top of existing benefits? Where will the money come from?

        • You started out there with a falsehood. Many if not most UBI proposals explicitly seek to provide a basic living. In fact, it's right in the name, "basic income". That's literally what that means. If you want fripperies you will have to work, but the very idea of UBI is that it covers living expenses so that if you don't or can't work, you don't cease to exist.

          You don't even know what the argument is, how can you argue for OR against it?

    • one way around most of these objections is implementing UBI as negative income tax. everyone gets a base income at an amount covering basic living, food and medical expenses. any income minus the baseline is taxable. big advantage is that there is no benefits cliff where if you make one dollar over a limit and you lose all if your social benefit.

      How much is a base income? well, financial "experts" say your living costs (rent) should be no more than 1/3 your income so the baseline income should be 3x the

    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      People aren't homeless because of lack of housing or money, it is often mental illness and addiction.

      So they HAVE money and homes, but because of their mental challenges and/or addiction that prevents them from going home?

  • Universal Credit (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Sazples ( 7408646 ) on Sunday November 01, 2020 @06:26PM (#60673144)
    I already get this amount per month from the Universal Credit system, approx 50 a week as a basic level (no children etc) from being made unemployed. When I was last unemployed 20 years ago it was around 35 a week. Now I am also homeless I can get around 380 a month for housing benefit on top once I find a place. I don't particularly understand how this is a universal income except it just goes to everyone instead of those needing it, but I also don't understand people from other countries thinking we can only fund this by scrapping other subsidies. During the first lockdown I was twice given money by the government to cover lost self employed earnings based on referring to last year's tax data, averaging a 3 month period and paying out 80% - considering I didn't expect anything that was a pretty sweet deal.
    • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      The problem with unemployment or homeless benefits is they create an incentive to be unemployed or homeless. A true UBI takes away that incentive, and also eliminates the need for a minimum wage.

      • some minimum wage is needed or pay will pay to work, walmart may try all kinds of BS to make peopel end owning walmart cash at end of work week.

        • If you have true, actual UBI (which pays a basic income, and doesn't just give pocket money) then there is no need for a minimum wage. A 48 pound UBI is really just an allowance.

          If UBI pays enough to live on (which is the idea) then it doesn't matter how little you make, you can still afford to live. You're only working to earn luxuries at that point. So any agreement between employer and employee which they can agree on is acceptable. All you need to do is fight fraud at that point, so that workers know wh

    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      There is nothing surprising with politicians redistributing your tax dollars to buy votes.

      Every dollar sent as aid during the pandemic is another dollar added to the national debt, your grandchildren will get the pleasure of paying for your elected official's generosity.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      UBI has a few advantages over Universal Credit.

      One of the biggest problems with Universal Credit is that it takes too long to start. People are out of work with no money for 6+ weeks before they get anything. With UBI it's just there all the time, no start-up delay. UBI is also cheaper to administer because there is no need to do means testing or check if you have savings or somewhere to live.

      By the way, how are you finding try to rent somewhere for £380/month? You didn't say where you are but a

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday November 01, 2020 @06:36PM (#60673172)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      The editors lean a bit left and the left thinks UBI is the greatest thing ever invented. Meanwhile nobody can just come out and say where the money is supposed to come from. It's always watch this video or read this article. What would most likely happen is the people who pay the most taxes (middle class) would pay the most into UBI. Or since everyone is suddenly getting more money the prices of goods will increase a result. So everyone having UBI is the same as no one having UBI.,

      • The problem is that the middle class pay the most taxes.
      • Where did the pandemic stimulus money come from? We could have implemented Yang's plan for the same price and the money would have made it to people instead of mostly Wall St.
      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        UBI isn't as expensive as the detractors make out. Income tax gets adjusted so that people with decent jobs end up getting nothing from it, because every penny they receive is taken back in tax. It also replaces a large number of other benefits.

        The left, that giant and diverse mass of people and ideas, is generally supportive of UBI because the benefits outweigh the downsides, but usually with caveats like there would still be some specific benefits available for things like disabilities.

      • The money comes from taxes and/or printing money

        If it comes from taxes you need a fair graduated tax system which taxes high end income brackets higher than low ones, and you also need all income (e.g. capital gains) taxed at the same rate. And obviously you don't tax people until they are getting supplemental (non-UBI) income

        If you get it by printing then you have to tie the UBI to inflation somehow. We can print trillions for wars to make already wealthy people wealthier, we can certainly print it to feed

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Take a look at the stories, narratives, and social pushes across many news outlets over the years. You will quickly notice a trend among nearly all of the mainstream ones. UBI is one of those that is being pushed pretty hard lately. Cashless society is another. Neither of these are in free society's best interests.

      Those in power control the legacy news, entertainment industry, many political positions, and they want YOU to support UBI. They want you to support it so badly, that they'll put you out of work f

    • As an engineer, almost everything I develop contributes in some way to reducing the labor to do something. I've always seen it as a general goal of technology to eventually eliminate the need for human labor and free all to do what they want.

      I do not believe that that will eliminate "work" because many, like myself, do not work for money. I hope it actually increases work as it frees people to pursue what they want to. I work for the pleasure of it. I've not made any money off of my work in years. But, I wo

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The pandemic has made it more urgent.

      The UK is currently failing badly with the virus. First we had a patchwork of local lockdowns that both failed to control infections and made it very hard for people and businesses to survive. There was much arguing and negotiating over support packages.

      With UBI a lot of that would be eliminated. The money would be there by default, clawed back through tax for people who are still able to work and earn 100%, with after-the-fact assessment.

      There is no chance our governmen

  • But the vast majority of people either don't understand or don't care where it comes from so long as they get theirs. Complete lack of foresight.
  • How about universal basic capital? Lets make capitalism work for everyone. Giving everyone an equivalent of $25000 at birth into an IRA account for fix the problem of their retirement.

  • When you shut down the economy so everyone's running out of money, then ask "what do you think about UBI" you'll get a lot of "support".

  • Because if it isn't, then it doesn't make sense to muck everything up with it when economies are in such a sensitive state. Besides, any results from UBI "experiments" will be worthless given the highly unusual circumstances. Of course that's probably half the point - the conditions are such that there's a better than usual chance of a recovering economy generating the false (and temporary) appearance of a successful implementation.

    You don't need to make radical changes to deal with a temporary problem.

  • Perhaps a universal income is a good idea, because of the US Government's retermination process. Also, there are no checks and balances against the Social Security Administration. We can't even have hearings with judges and juries.

The truth of a proposition has nothing to do with its credibility. And vice versa.

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