SoftBank CEO Says He Doesn't Understand Bitcoin, and Watching the Price Fluctuate Was 'Distracting My Focus On My Own Business' (businessinsider.in) 93
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Business Insider: Softbank CEO Masayoshi Son said that he "doesn't understand" bitcoin, and that he spent a good chunk of his time tracking its movement while invested in the cryptocurrency. Son, who made the remarks at The New York Times DealBook conference, said he was told by a friend to invest "1% of his personal assets" into bitcoin, meaning he invested "about 200 million." After investing the money, Son said he would spend about five minutes each day looking at bitcoin prices fluctuate.
While speaking with host Andrew Ross Sorkin, Son said he found the investment to be "distracting [his] own focus on [his] own business." Son quickly grew tired of checking the price of bitcoin every day. This reoccurring distraction from checking prices every day led Son to sell his stake in bitcoin, and he estimates that he lost around $50 million. According to a Wall Street Journal report, Son lost closer to $130 million when he sold his stake in 2018, citing sources who are familiar with the matter. "I feel so much better," Son said of exiting the cryptocurrency. "I think digital currency will be useful," Son added. "But I don't know what digital currency, what structure, and so on."
While speaking with host Andrew Ross Sorkin, Son said he found the investment to be "distracting [his] own focus on [his] own business." Son quickly grew tired of checking the price of bitcoin every day. This reoccurring distraction from checking prices every day led Son to sell his stake in bitcoin, and he estimates that he lost around $50 million. According to a Wall Street Journal report, Son lost closer to $130 million when he sold his stake in 2018, citing sources who are familiar with the matter. "I feel so much better," Son said of exiting the cryptocurrency. "I think digital currency will be useful," Son added. "But I don't know what digital currency, what structure, and so on."
It's called... (Score:2)
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Seriously, this was here 3 hours ago. What kind of drooling fucking retards work at this goddamned company. It would take someone 10 minutes, tops, to scroll through comment feeds looking for this shit.
Re: It's called... (Score:2)
Re:In other news (Score:4, Insightful)
Cryptocurrency Scams Took in More Than $4 Billion in 2019: Ponzi schemes are the latest form of bitcoin fraud, with big platforms like one called PlusToken drawing the most money [wsj.com]
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Yep. Crypto currencies are not investment tools.
Either someone wants to be paid in cryptocoins because the conventional payment systems fail them (eg illegal activity like drugs and malware, porn or porn-adjacent materials (eg webcam modeling), adult websites, gambling) or they begrudgingly accept cryptocoins because they want to deal with someone who has already been excluded from existing payment technologies including paypal/square/stripe/apple-pay/etc. Bitcoin itself is a tool of last resort before phys
Sound money: Gold and The Gold Standard! (Score:1)
"Here's what I continue to tell people: name to me a business that was analog and got digitized, and the digital version is smaller than the analog version. It doesn't happen. It's because digitization brings all kinds of advantages. It's a market-expanding technology." Pompliano
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It's like saying you don't understand fantasy football. So an expert in traditional financial instruments is likely to be baffled by an instrument that is not backed by any assets, has no government support or backing, which cannot be openly traded in an open outdoor market, and which has no instrinsic value. It's not like cash, because investment in cash generally does have giant fluctuations in price unless the underlying country is undergoing turmoil.
It's sometimes treated like cash for trade purposes,
Don't understand? (Score:2)
Re:Don't understand? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bitcoins are underpinned by wishful thinking. The value of bitcoin is based on nothing. One cannot forecast the value of bitcoins. One cannot look at a balance sheet, a crop report, a government report, and determine if it will go up or down.
Re:Don't understand? (Score:5, Funny)
Bitcoins are underpinned by wishful thinking. The value of bitcoin is based on nothing. One cannot forecast the value of bitcoins. One cannot look at a balance sheet, a crop report, a government report, and determine if it will go up or down.
Pretty much this. It is truly as if some people got together and decided to prank the world. We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
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Bitcoins are underpinned by wishful thinking. The value of bitcoin is based on nothing. One cannot forecast the value of bitcoins. One cannot look at a balance sheet, a crop report, a government report, and determine if it will go up or down.
Pretty much this. It is truly as if some people got together and decided to prank the world. We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
Reminds me of how QAnon apparently came into being. Beware of morons taking pranks seriously.
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Bitcoins are underpinned by wishful thinking. The value of bitcoin is based on nothing. One cannot forecast the value of bitcoins. One cannot look at a balance sheet, a crop report, a government report, and determine if it will go up or down.
Pretty much this. It is truly as if some people got together and decided to prank the world. We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
Reminds me of how QAnon apparently came into being. Beware of morons taking pranks seriously.
I recently got spanked because I made up a conspiracy to see if the morons would take it seriously. I've been trying to adopt a less sarcastic approach to the morons and their moron ways.
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We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
But that is exactly how dollars and euros work. That is why I said that he does not really understand dollars or euros.
Re:Don't understand? (Score:5, Informative)
We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
But that is exactly how dollars and euros work. That is why I said that he does not really understand dollars or euros.
No, it is not how dollars and euros work. They work because they are backed by one or more governments. Those governments have the ability to raise money via taxes and fees, they have physical assets (land, building, vehicles,etc) , they have reserves of precious metals, etc.
Bitcoin is backed by wishful thinking. There is no organization, no government, no assets, there is nothing at all behind bitcoin to back up the claim of it having value. This is why bitcoin's value shifts so much for no apparent reason.
The Government of the United States says the dollar has value and that it is backed by the "full faith and credit" of the United States of America. The European Union says the euro has value. Who says the bitcoin has value?
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"Who says the bitcoin has value?"
Everyone in the world. Remember that if your government is against something it's because it's bad for them and good for you.
Canada, for example, no longer has reserves of precious metals. Canada, the USA and other countries have been printing new money out of thin air since they started sending money because of loss of jobs due to the pandemic. Most countries have extreme debts, to the point that their currencies has a negative value.
If you can't see the value of Bitcoin an
Re:Don't understand? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Who says the bitcoin has value?"
Everyone in the world. Remember that if your government is against something it's because it's bad for them and good for you.
Canada, for example, no longer has reserves of precious metals. Canada, the USA and other countries have been printing new money out of thin air since they started sending money because of loss of jobs due to the pandemic. Most countries have extreme debts, to the point that their currencies has a negative value.
If you can't see the value of Bitcoin and still try to equate it to fiat, we can't explain it to you because you don't want to understand it.
Well, I hate to break it to ya, but Any and all systems are fiat. and bitcoin is self designated fiat. Backed up only by the people who use it. What country has a monnetary system based on fiat?
It's rather odd to complain about countries printing money withbout backup, while bitcoin is the very definition of something that has no backup. Bitcoin is exactly thin air
and you act like it isn't.
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The value of Bitcoin is twofold: its decentralized control and the fact that is has a finite number of coins, just like precious metals. For example, gold would be absolutely worthless if it was as common as sand or water.
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The value of Bitcoin is twofold: its decentralized control and the fact that is has a finite number of coins, just like precious metals. For example, gold would be absolutely worthless if it was as common as sand or water.
Most people don't place a high value on "decentralized control." Most of the people who "don't want to understand" Bitcoin probably understand at least this.
Gold would be worth less (but not worthless) if it was as common as sand or water, but gold would not be trusted as a reserve if the global supply could be increased whenever the owners of 51% of the gold reserves found it helpful.
Is there a crypto-coin that is tied to some reserve of gold? I think that would provide the "decentralized control" (assumi
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No, gold would be cheap if it was common, but it would still be a useful material and thus not worthless. In fact, it is not just the rarity of gold that makes it valuable, it is the usefulness of gold (even if that use is just as a display of wealth) in combination with rarity that makes it expensive.
Bitcoin, on the other hand, has no real use. It isn't any good as currency because it is far too volatile in price. And it isn't any good as a store of value, because it has no real value. The only thing i
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Where's the benefit of decentralized control? I don't, and never, understood it.
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gold would be absolutely worthless if it was as common as sand or water.
Gold has intrinsic value because of it's properties. It is lustrous making it good for jewelry and decorations. It is a good conductor, meaning it People would want gold even if it was as common as sand or water. In fact, neither sand nor water are worthless. Sand is used in construction and for various products. Water is a universal solvent and can cost more than gasoline
A bitcoin is just a string of bits which have no intrinsic value. It can't be used fo
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"Who says the bitcoin has value?"
Everyone in the world.
I don't say it is worth anything and I am part of "Everyone in the world". And, I am not alone. Look at all the people, businesses, and governments who won't take bitcoin for anything. Your statement is ridiculous on it's face.
Remember that if your government is against something it's because it's bad for them and good for you.
Here is what you are saying:
Pollution is good for you.
Uncontrolled abuse of drugs like oxycontin, fentanyl, and benzodiazepines is good for you.
Being paid $4.00 per hour under the table for manual labor is good for you.
Untested, unproven medicine is good for you.
Vehicles with des
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We might as well decide that monopoly game money is real.
But that is exactly how dollars and euros work. That is why I said that he does not really understand dollars or euros.
Not really. One thing for certain is that any and all monetary systems are essentially fiat. And that includes the holy grail of Gold. Arbitrary as anything, and millions of people lose millions of dollars on their seemingly bulletproof gold investments.
What is important is that there are entities that back up whatever is considered "money". Bitcoin and gold are not real currency. They are self- decided fiat investments, and therefore have no real backing.
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By the way ... this is actually quite an interesting point. Why do you think of the dollar as a monetary unit and Bitcoin not? Just because the dollar is in circulation around the world as a unit of account? But Bitcoin does the same thing)) I am studying the theory and practice of working with Forex now. You can watch these webinars if you are interested ....
Our teacher says that anything can be money if enough people accept these conditions. Cryptocurrency has already firmly entered our economy and it would be foolish to deny it. These waves are harder to track as most of the large Bitcoin holders are anonymous. But this influence exists and it is clearly visible on the graphs. It's my opinion.
Indeed - everything is arbitrary - all of it. If everyone decided that the unit of currency for the entire world was bitcoin, then by gosh, it is.
In like manner, I could declare my urine as currency, then if people bought it, I wouldn't be piss poor (that's a joke)
The problem with things like bitcoin is that say I want to buy a loaf of bread. The volatility of that currency is impressive https://en.bitcoinwiki.org/wik... [bitcoinwiki.org] If I were to buy that loaf of bread, it could be quite different on a day to day
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I beg to differ. He understand "dollars, euros, grain and oil" quite well.. That is the problem. He understands that they are underpinned by something. Grain and Oil production, the economic condition, output, and word of the United States and the European Union.
I don't think you understand the Euro or the Dollar, then. They don't depend on the word of anyone or anything called "The EU" or "The US". They depend on other people accepting them as payment. That's all. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
Why people accept them is complicated but that mostly depends on there being a limited supply which can not be easily faked. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
In the case of Euros and Dollars, the central bank is responsible for limiting supply and chasing forgeries; Bitcoin polices
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Which army exists to defend the sovereign that declares Bitcoin has value?
Insisting that cryptocurrencies are "exactly the same" as fiat currencies does not make it so.
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Which army exists to defend the sovereign that declares Bitcoin has value?
What army is going to turn up and tell Abdul he has to sell his oil in dollars?
What army is going to turn up and tell Redneck McSurvivalist that he's not allowed to barter?
What army has ever been called on to support the value of a currency? It just wouldn't work.
All the Mickey Mouse shitholes around the world where people take dollars instead of the local currency have armies and generally their governments are pretty happy to use them. Hasn't done their exchange rate any good.
Re:Don't understand? (Score:4, Insightful)
What army is going to turn up and tell Abdul he has to sell his oil in dollars?
Lol, have you been paying attention to the Middle East in the last few decades?
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What army is going to turn up and tell Abdul he has to sell his oil in dollars?
Lol, have you been paying attention to the Middle East in the last few decades?
Yes. Are you suggesting that if Saudi Arabia started only accepting yuan that the US would send the tanks in?
In any case there are plenty of other commodities sold in dollars; the US is not policing them all (or any, really).
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Yes. Are you suggesting that if Saudi Arabia started only accepting yuan that the US would send the tanks in?
The Saudis won't do it because American tanks are already there :)
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I don't think you understand the Euro or the Dollar, then. They don't depend on the word of anyone or anything called "The EU" or "The US". They depend on other people accepting them as payment. That's all. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
Nonsense, they have value because at the end of the day you must pay some of them to parts of those governments. Which means ultimately you must participate in some kind of activity that allows you to obtain some of them.
Lets imagine here in the state of VA that I decide i am going to grow all my own food, maintain my shelter with resources like lumber sourced entirely on my own property. From Jan1 - Dec 31 I don't step a foot off my own land, or even communicate with anyone besides my immediate family dwe
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I don't think you understand the Euro or the Dollar, then. They don't depend on the word of anyone or anything called "The EU" or "The US". They depend on other people accepting them as payment. That's all. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
Nonsense, they have value because at the end of the day you must pay some of them to parts of those governments. Which means ultimately you must participate in some kind of activity that allows you to obtain some of them.
Lets imagine here in the state of VA that I decide i am going to grow all my own food, maintain my shelter with resources like lumber sourced entirely on my own property. From Jan1 - Dec 31 I don't step a foot off my own land, or even communicate with anyone besides my immediate family dwelling here with me. None of them do either.
Now guess what I STILL owe real-estate and personal property taxes that must be paid or if I remain delinquent on those payments long enough men with guns will come and take things from me. If I resist more men with enough extra guns and equipment will arrive that I am unable to resist. So you see I have a need to obtain at least a minimal amount of dollars even if I am otherwise self sufficient or transact in some barter medium like bitcoin.. Conversely I have no need whatsoever for Bitcoin.
This is all true up to a point and if the country was self-sufficient then it would hold water fairly well. But once you have imports and exports (and migration), the value of the currency is no longer in the government's hands.
They certainly may insist on payment in whatever form they want, but how much they want - the value of each dollar bill - is not their choice any more.
Legal tender is not about defending the value of a currency; it's about simplifying a lot of things the governments are/have to be in
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Like many things the ideas the US does and does not control the value of the dollar are both true to a point. Yes there is some amount of where relative costs of import goods becomes inflationary driver as foreign buyers demand more dollars on perceived weakness. On the other hand most of the worlds competing currencies the euro, the yen, the franc, are in the hands of governments whose fates are largely tieded together. So in practice a weakening dollar also means a weakening euro (maybe not relative to ea
Re: Don't understand? (Score:3)
I don't think you understand the Euro or the Dollar, then. They don't depend on the word of anyone or anything called "The EU" or "The US". They depend on other people accepting them as payment. That's all. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
This isn't right, your argument goes more or less anything is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, therefore Bitcoin is exactly the same as dollars.
That's NOT all. There is obviously quite a lot more to comparing the national currency of a bigass GDP country deeply enmeshed with international trade, with some new bauble that appears overnight with no intrinsic value. Yes, you can trade or barter with either one, but they differ entirely in the stability of their value. This is a very very
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I don't think you understand the Euro or the Dollar, then. They don't depend on the word of anyone or anything called "The EU" or "The US". They depend on other people accepting them as payment. That's all. Bitcoin is exactly the same.
This isn't right, your argument goes more or less anything is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, therefore Bitcoin is exactly the same as dollars.
That's NOT all. There is obviously quite a lot more to comparing the national currency of a bigass GDP country deeply enmeshed with international trade,
Yes, indeed. International trade is one of the key ways we discover or set the value of a currency - by what people are willing to accept it as payment for. As I said.
International trade usually means selling things to people who don't use your currency, so you need to have something they want. If you don't then your currency has no value internationally. And as soon as you do have something to sell, the value put on your currency has an impact on things in the buyer's country, which is why most nations hav
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Ah but you can look at the state of organized crime around the world and predict if the need for bitcoin will go up or down.
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That is a really dumb comparison. Saying you are betting on the technology is like saying like you are betting on the anti-counterfeiting measures the Bureau of Engraving uses. Those measures help PROTECT the value of the currency, but they don't PROVIDE they value of the currency. What exactly is it that gives bitcoin its value? It is not the technology.
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One cannot forecast the value of bitcoins. One cannot look at a balance sheet, a crop report, a government report, and determine if it will go up or down.
All these points are true for gold as well. The value of gold is mostly derived from its scarcity -- if it wasn't for the fact that gold is hoarded by central banks all over the world, the value of gold would be only a small fraction of its current price.
An easily transferable and dividable asset that is provably and predictably scarce works great as a money. Humanity has tried to use sea shells, spices, cattle, gemstones, precious metals etc. and ended up using gold because it is scarce.
Currently fiat
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How? (Score:2)
How can somebody with so little understanding of numbers be in charge of so much money?
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This quote from the Sopranos comes to mind. Money rolls uphill and shit rolls downhill.
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How can somebody with so little understanding of numbers be in charge of so much money?
To use a baseball analogy, how business "works" is the equivalent of someone getting a single hit in a game and everyone immediately declaring them the home run record holder. They seem to assume that 1 success, no matter how instrumental (or not) that person was in that success, means a guarantee of repeated success in the future.
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How can somebody with so little understanding of numbers be in charge of so much money?
To use a baseball analogy, how business "works" is the equivalent of someone getting a single hit in a game and everyone immediately declaring them the home run record holder. They seem to assume that 1 success, no matter how instrumental (or not) that person was in that success, means a guarantee of repeated success in the future.
Pretty much. And then the utterly perverted scaling effects of capitalism come into play. No single person can even remotely have that value or importance (20B) for society.
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How can somebody with so little understanding of numbers be in charge of so much money?
He has a very very good understanding of numbers which is why he has so much money. The problem is that none of that knowledge that allows him to lose more money in a day than you will earn in several lifetimes and still have a 9 figure bank account is of any use when it comes to something like Bitcoin where there is no reason behind any rises or falls. With shares and currency there's usually a driver for any rises or falls, something that he is very good at calculating. With bitcoin it's basically "what w
It's not that complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
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Human history is replete with speculative manias where assets with little or no underlying value were bid up in a tug of war between greed, fear of loss, and fear of missing out. See examples of asset bubbles [wikipedia.org].
The investors in the bubbles almost all got to experience the loss they so feared. Fools and their money stuff. What the CEO is saying is a gentle way of saying "This won't work in the end."
Greed makes otherwise intelligent people remarkably stupid. And its a Grifter's game, where a few people talk people out of their money and become wealthy, while almost everyone else just becomes poorer for their "investment"
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See examples of asset bubbles [wikipedia.org].
Few of those asset bubbles lasted for over 11 years. Bitcoin started in 2009, 11 years ago. For how long must Bitcoin exist before you'd stop calling a bubble?
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Bitcoin was not an asset bubble 11 years ago. Bitcoin was a fledgling currency. You could buy stuff with bitcoin. There was a marketplace.
It some point, and I don't know exactly when, the marketplace collapsed. The collapse was mostly due to the wild price shifts of bitcoin caused by speculators flooding the currency market. A currency that is not stable is not a currency that will be used.
Bitcoin is now an asset bubble. When the bubble burst many speculators will experience an education, but nothing o
Banker doesn't understand "rules". Shocking. (Score:2, Funny)
"But I don't know what digital currency, what structure, and so on."
Why am I not surprised that a banking exec, doesn't understand a currency model that kind of has to play by the rules.
Go figure he doesn't understand it. The largest criminals in banking probably wouldn't.
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Why am I not surprised that a banking exec, doesn't understand a currency model that kind of has to play by the rules.
But crypto currencies don't play by the rules, that's their problem.
Everything is "fake" wrt to value (Score:2)
Nothing has any intrinsic value except that which humans give it including money, gold, bitcoin and just about every consumer good. The only things that have actual value are food, water and air since without them we'd die.
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In a global crash, nobody has enough money to buy useless shiny objects.
In a global crash, companies will use other materials that are almost-as-good conductors but cost a lot less.
For the extremely small number of things that actually require gold to function (ex: thin gold coating for astronaut helms and satellites), the supply is so much greater than the demand that gold prices would also crash.
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Bitcoin on the other hand has no intrinsic value.
What is the "intrinsic" value of a 10 dollar bill?
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Now take that $10 bill to some village in Tibet and see how much value it has.
You're an idiot. Perhaps clue yourself up about that "randian nonsense" then perhaps your opinion will be worth a penny.
What's not to understand? (Score:2)
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It's a tool for money laundering and buying drugs. The high volume of transactions attracted speculators. Does he just not want to say the quiet part out loud or is he actually this dumb?
I'm sorry, but when you were talking about money laundering and buying drugs, were you referring to bitcoin, or the rest of his banking businesses?
(Let's stop pretending most USD in circulation, isn't laced with cocaine. Literally.)
where's his PR firm? (Score:2)
in a world where so many high level execs have the delusion that their expertise is somehow transferrable to some unrelated field, like social engineering and politics, I find his honesty refreshing
hard for me to grok having $200MM in disposable play money, but I've tried new things just to see what happens before, only on a smaller scale
it's okay to not know or understand something but downright admirable to admit it and say "nah, not for me"
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Not only is it hard to grok having $200MM in play money (was it his personal assets as advertised or SoftBank's Saudi backed fund?), but it doesn't sound like "play money". It was a bad investment. He totally expected to make money on it.
BitCon has some value (Score:2)
There is some value in BitCoin for the Son and Jamie Dimon types. Its a learning experience. Its an opportunity for them to develop business understanding and internal talent around the technology.
I have little doubt the world of fiat currency is going to move to all digital eventually and with few regulatory controls around registration of wallets blockchain has all the tracking and accountability big globalist government types want, so that will probably end up being the ledger technology.
The big banks an
Bitcoin is easy (Score:5, Insightful)
Bitcoin is easy to understand. It's a casino designed as a market intended to trick dumb people into handing over real money in exchange for playing games that the whales manipulate.
I don't know how this is so hard to understand.
Most people can't understand money (Score:2)
WWI was the end of the Classical Gold Standard; 1971 is the real beginning of our today fiat currencies.
Here is the economic consequences: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse... [linkedin.com]
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Gold was used as money for 1000+ years because it's a shiny metal, easy to melt into coins, and resistant to corrosion. Those are the only reasons. It's not some magic wealth material. It was just pretty and didn't rust.
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Sure fiat currencies are manipulable. That's the point. They're managed to damp short term fluctuations and produce a consistent, low level of inflation. Sometimes values are changed to manipulate trade balances. But that only works because currencies are overall managed to be very stable on a week to week and month to month basis.
If you allowed fiat currencies to float the way bitcoin does, a cup of coffee would cost $1 one day, $0.50 the next, and then $10 the day after that. The good news is that would
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I wasn't making any points that are contrary to these. They're all valid. I was pointing out how stupid the parent hyberbole was.
Responding to you directly, bitcoin should never have been branded as digital money. It's digital gold, with all the associated ramifications of that label, just as satoshi explained in the first year.
That was dumb (Score:2)
Should have waited to sell, you could have made 150 million! Granted, that's only 1% of his assets, so it's like losing some coins in the couch, to him.
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That's the worst part of it. It was only 1% so he didn't need to sell it at a loss. Why didn't he wait?
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That's the worst part of it. It was only 1% so he didn't need to sell it at a loss. Why didn't he wait?
Maybe he needed some investment losses to write off some taxes?
Bitcoin is just for the 1% anyways (Score:2)
only that 1% is a bunch of geeks with this round of hype.
So much for bitcoin's promise of ubiquitous accessibility.
Son is right. (Score:2)
Son is right. Losing $150 million feels fine, like taking a good shit.
Invested 220M because a friend told him to? (Score:2)
Was he a target of Inception or something?
I guess even the Uber wealthy and powerful have pretty simplistic methods for investing.
Pump And Dump (Score:2)
Bitcoin is not immune to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]