Andrew Yang Proposes a Local Currency, Sees Growing Support for Universal Basic Income (newyorker.com) 196
In March Andrew Yang's nonprofit gave $1,000 one-time grants to a thousand residents in the Bronx. This week a new article in the New Yorker asks one of those grant recipients how they feel about Yang's newest proposal as he runs to be New York's mayor: to give the city's public-housing residents billions of dollars in a "Borough Bucks" currency that would hopefully recirculate in the community:
"I was like, you know, am I the only person here that would love to live in a society where we can actually barter our talents and skills, instead of depending on this economy that's not working for us?"
Yang made a similar point when I asked him about the origins of the Borough Bucks proposal. "If you're going to invest resources in a community, your preference is that the resources circulate within the community, particularly if you can serve multiple goals," he said. "They're just imaginative ways for communities to unlock resources."
The article also notes that in an earlier run for the U.S. presidency, "his pitch was that the economy needed to be modernized to account for automation and other technological advances. In his mayoral run, his pitch is that New York City should become the 'anti-poverty' city." But they explored the larger question of whether Yang sees a growing acceptance for universal basic incomes: I asked Yang about the debate, now happening in Congress, about whether Biden should push for fourteen-hundred-dollar stimulus checks in the next bailout package, or two-thousand-dollar checks, or two thousand dollars a month until the economy rebounds. Yang said that he favored the last proposal.
I asked him how he felt about the fact that even as other candidates in the race were attacking him, several — Eric Adams, the former nonprofit executive Dianne Morales, and the City Council member Carlos Menchaca — had expressed interest in the U.B.I. policies he had championed. "I would love to check out their plans," Yang said. "It's an idea whose time has come. I'm certainly very proud to have contributed to the idea's popularity, but anyone who wants to adapt a version of it, like, fantastic."
Yang made a similar point when I asked him about the origins of the Borough Bucks proposal. "If you're going to invest resources in a community, your preference is that the resources circulate within the community, particularly if you can serve multiple goals," he said. "They're just imaginative ways for communities to unlock resources."
The article also notes that in an earlier run for the U.S. presidency, "his pitch was that the economy needed to be modernized to account for automation and other technological advances. In his mayoral run, his pitch is that New York City should become the 'anti-poverty' city." But they explored the larger question of whether Yang sees a growing acceptance for universal basic incomes: I asked Yang about the debate, now happening in Congress, about whether Biden should push for fourteen-hundred-dollar stimulus checks in the next bailout package, or two-thousand-dollar checks, or two thousand dollars a month until the economy rebounds. Yang said that he favored the last proposal.
I asked him how he felt about the fact that even as other candidates in the race were attacking him, several — Eric Adams, the former nonprofit executive Dianne Morales, and the City Council member Carlos Menchaca — had expressed interest in the U.B.I. policies he had championed. "I would love to check out their plans," Yang said. "It's an idea whose time has come. I'm certainly very proud to have contributed to the idea's popularity, but anyone who wants to adapt a version of it, like, fantastic."
"local" currency doesn't work (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:"local" currency doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
"I was like, you know, am I the only person here that would love to live in a society where we can actually barter our talents and skills, instead of depending on this economy that's not working for us?"
This is a fallacy. IF your talents and skills are worth other people's labor, then you should be able to exchange it for them better in the US economy than in the borough economy. Even if you live there, if you're making something of value and selling it, you have a larger addressable market in the US than you do in one small portion (NYC). The US dollar is accepted nearly world-wide or exchangeable just about anywhere.
No. If the economy is not working for you, changing the currency that underpins it wont solve your issue.
Honestly, beyond just that, its statements and ideas like this that seriously disenfranchise me from believing in Democrat economics. It is like they never paid attention in economics class. Price (and currency) is like middleware. It allows people who don't live near each other, speak the same language, pray to the same God, or believe in the same values trade their talents, their skills, their property, and their labor with one another. Its a communication mechanism. When prices rise, that is the economy telling you to make more of the thing who's price has risen, or supply more of the type of labor who's price has risen. When prices fall, that tells you the supply of that thing is too much, and you should focus your energy elsewhere. Supply and demand dictate price. If you cant get the price you want with your skill and talent, you should learn a different trade. Changing the currency, and expecting to feel better is something like being unhappy with the temperature and trying to solve it by converting over to Celsius from Fahrenheit. Its not going to fix anything making new currencies.
Re:"local" currency doesn't work (Score:4, Insightful)
Honestly, beyond just that, its statements and ideas like this that seriously disenfranchise me from believing in Democrat economics
This isn't really 'democrat' economics, it's Yang economics. At this point both parties are pretty vague, as the two party reality has forced anyone vaguely serious about wanting to be in politics to select one of two labels and go with it, and generally no one in either party will call out someone who claims the same label as them for political differences, outside of directly running against them in a primary. They will however vote against proposals from their own party, just as Green's push to impeach Biden right now will be rejected by Republicans, even though Republicans will make no particular move to more broadly undermine. Yang's proposals are no more a democratic party thing than Green's impeachment is a republican party thing.
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To whom it may concern:
"its" == thing that belongs to it.
"it's" == it is.
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If you go to Yang's site https://www.yangforny.com/poli... [yangforny.com] and scroll down a bit, there's not much detail to what he proposes, but there's a link to a news story https://www.nbcnews.com/news/u... [nbcnews.com] where it seems to me like the idea is to turn the food bank into a shopping experience and liberally give out and give the opportunity to earn "points" that can be exchanged for food. So in essence a welfare program purposely made to look like an economic program in order to protect the dignity of the recipients.
This comment should be modded +5 (Score:2)
It's depressing that people on here would actually downvote this... the most rational, accurate comment on this story I've seen here.
Nothing is stopping a person from bartering their talents and skills to pay for what they need and want! If you think you need a "universal basic income" given to you before you can successfully do that? Then you're simply admitting that your talents and skills you'd like to exchange aren't really worth that much to people. And that's a whole different dilemma.
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I'm a bit skeptical on UBI, but in general the emphasis is on *basic*. You have enough to stay alive, but presumably not desirable life (adequate but crappy food, probably sharing renting a single bedroom with someone else, various other survivable but undesirable lifestyle compromises), or to supplement a sustenance income to raise to a point of paying for some education or relocation. It's an emergency safety net and a bit of autonomy for controlling benefits to better follow opportunity.
Strangely, you ne
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It is different because the Constitution expressly forbids any inferior government from doing so in Article I section 10.
Doesn't stop Ithaca [wikipedia.org] from doing it...
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So what about Disneyland money?
Re: "local" currency doesn't work (Score:2)
Disney dollars are, essentially, gift cards. Iâ(TM)ve received them as a ruse and spent them at the local Disney store as well as in the parks. They actually make a neat souvenir, too.
Re:"local" currency doesn't work (Score:5, Funny)
Brings back fond memories of sixth-grade social studies class, when they printed "Social Studies Dollars" to teach us how money works. You could earn them by helping each other out with homework and class projects, doing extra credit assignments, helping the teacher clean the room, and so forth. Then, you could exchange them for candy or school supplies, or use them at the school book fair. Additionally, if you had an older brother who worked on the school newspaper and had access to the office mimeograph machine, you could learn how to seize control of the economy through counterfeiting and currency manipulation.
Not sure the lessons learned were those Mr. Herkimer intended to impart, but they have served me well in life, nonetheless.
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Re:"local" currency doesn't work (Score:5, Funny)
Additionally, if you had an older brother who worked on the school newspaper and had access to the office mimeograph machine, you could learn how to seize control of the economy through counterfeiting and currency manipulation.
It's all fun and games until the other kids, after finding that counterfeiting has hyperinflated their Social Studies Dollars until it takes a wheelbarrow full of them to buy a pack of Crayolas, elects the toughest kid as class president and then marches into Poland.
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I've not seen the details of Yang's proposal but in general if the issuer of a currency fixes it to another currency they don't really have a currency.
So to make it work all he has to do is not do that and make it obligatory for local taxes to be paid in it. Another possibility would be to only sell certain government services for Borough Bucks. Curitiba in Brazil successfully paid people in bus tickets to collect rubbish.
Individual holders would be free to sell Borough Bucks for Dollars but the city won't
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Hmm, not sure how that works alongside "legal tender for all debts, public and private"....
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Yes, that could throw a spanner in the works. Making it an option to pay taxes or other fees in Borough Bucks, maybe offer a discount too, would still be effective, especially with people at the bottom end who find getting hold of dollars difficult and those who cater to them.
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So to make it work all he has to do is not do that and make it obligatory for local taxes to be paid in it. Another possibility would be to only sell certain government services for Borough Bucks.
So, all Yang has to do is violate federal law and discriminate against people who don't want or need his private currency.
Re:"local" currency doesn't work (Score:5, Informative)
Can it be exchanged for US dollars? If so, then creating this currency is illegal
You're mistaken. It is a well known practice in the U.S. that waxes and wanes in popularity. Printing your own made up currency is quite legal in the U.S. (and most other countries). The law isn't stopping you, and the Secret Service won't be knocking on your door. If you buy low and sell high, the tax man will find you, even if you did it trading JoeBucks.
If it can't be exchanged for US dollars, then what is it?
Even coffee beans can be exchanged for US dollars. The difference between buying and selling commodities and currency is that currency has (almost) no intrinsic value, assuming you're printing on recycled paper.
What backs it?
Different community currencies solve this in different ways. You can simply state that you will return it at some exchange rate with one or more other currencies. You can have a variable rate of exchange or a fixed rate. Fixed rate is probably easiest for a community currency. Because keeping a 1:1 ratio of outstanding notes versus some account with a bank. Local business owners would buy snall amounts of notes at face value, and distribute them to customers. The money paid by businesses goes into an account. And the one managing the currency (a city council typically) would determine when to print more notes.
Of course you can also commit fraud very easily when running your own currency. It's actually illegal to commit fraud, even with your own currency. But it's not super extra illegal like laws around our national currency. You're at a huge disadvantage running a community currency, you don't have the protection of additional laws and enforcement resources that are available to the federal government.
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Can it be exchanged for US dollars? If so, then creating this currency is illegal
You're mistaken. It is a well known practice in the U.S.
Indeed. There are several jurisdictions in the US that have local currencies. They are all exchangeable for dollars.
The most well known was the Ithaca Hour [wikipedia.org], which had a nominal value of $10, which was considered a fair value for an hour of work at the time the currency started.
It is no longer in circulation. While legal, these local currencies fail for many reasons: Counterfeiting, refusal of many merchants to accept them, and (most importantly) that encouraging barter is a really stupid idea. There is
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In a box somewhere i have an old Yakima Wooden Nickel.
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There is no economic advantage to "buying local".
2 of the shopping malls near where I live seem to disagree. The malls sell pre-paid, mall-branded, debit cards that work like Visa/MasterCard prepaid debit cards, except they only work at stores in the mall where the card was purchased. As far as the stores are concerned, the cards are no different than any other Visa/MasterCard debit card, but, somehow, the mall is able to specify a list of authorized stores. Any store not on the mall's list will get a "card declined" response from the store's payment proc
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It can be advantageous for a particular business to lock-in customers. But it is not a benefit to the community as a whole.
If every community issued local currency and promoted small, inefficient local businesses, we would all be worse off.
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Liberty Dollars [wikipedia.org].
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There is nothing illegal in the US about having your own currency. As long as both payor and payee agree that it has value, it's all good. You just don't have that legal backing of being the final say in settling a debt if all other methods are exhausted.
And as for the whole "what backs it" argument? What backs Bitcoin? What backs the US dollar? It's all just mutually agreed upon value.
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I don't think it is technically illegal. I believe it'd be illegal if you were required to pay debts in that currency or if it is non-transferrable. In fact, based upon some quick websearches, I think you've got that exactly backwards. Non-transferrable (meaning it can't be turned into US dollars), is unconsititutional if companies are paying you in it. The reason for this is to avoid Company Scrip and Company Towns (where you can effectively turn workers into slaves, as was commonly done in remote area
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unconsititutional if companies are paying you in it. The reason for this is to avoid Company Scrip and Company Towns
Is that only true for paying wages? Because it is common for shops to give you script when you return merchandise. It can be used to buy stuff, but it can't be converted to dollars. Bus passes and subway tokens can be used to buy transportation, but can't be exchanged for cash.
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Can it be exchanged for US dollars? If so, then creating this currency is illegal because its printing money
It's not illegal. Several communities have local money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
But if it can be exchanged for US dollars or pretty much anything of value then it doesn't actually stay in the community. You give it to a homeless person, that person sells it to someone else for USD and then buys whatever else they want with the USD. If the exchange rate is 50 cents on the dollar then the value of the local currency is going to drop too to compensate.
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But that's a feature, not a bug.
If you can't spend that money at your local Starbucks (because Starbucks HQ doesn't want your funny money), it can be spent on local businesses that are deeply integrated into the local fabric of your community and that will only recycle your money locally. Now, it doesn't mean that local businesses won't still need normal currency.
But that kind of currency should make local bartering easier. And yes, bartering and trading can be legal (assuming it's declared and taxed proper
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Re: "local" currency doesn't work (Score:2)
If I we're going to try and make this work, I'd let them count extra when making payments to the city.
This opens up potential for abuse (since if they count as $1.25 for paying city taxes, surely some less than honest businesses would just buy them for $1.20 rather than using them as intended), but since the city is in complete control of the supply and it would presumably be rather small, they should be able to notice large abuses.
That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's other ways they could i
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And why would the supply be "rather small"? Population of NYC is on the order of 8 megapeople. Enough of the funny money to matter is going to be on the order of 10 gigabucks.
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--Look up Utah Goldbacks. Basically a thin layer of gold, covered by plastic with artwork on it. Other states may be getting in on it as well, but the idea behind it is that the note itself has some intrinsic value (similar to silver coins) where fiat currency does not.
https://goldback.com/ [goldback.com]
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If you can't spend that money at your local Starbucks (because Starbucks HQ doesn't want your funny money), it can be spent on local businesses that are deeply integrated into the local fabric of your community and that will only recycle your money locally.
So, one spends the money at a local coffee shop and that coffee shop does what with it? Can't can't buy coffee with it except from a local supplier who then can't buy coffee with it because there are no coffee growers in New York City and no supplier is going to want it.
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It's not as crazy as idea. In it's most abstract sense, that's all money is. Something 'we' trust to have value as we exchange goods and services with each other.
The obvious issue is how will people trust it. I can't take my monopoly money and buy anything with it. However, if you have a society that is very local service oriented, then it could work.
I can pay for my haircut with yang bucks. The cost to the barber is basically just their labor. If they have no customers paying real US dollars due to weak de
Re: "local" currency doesn't work (Score:2)
That, and the IRS won't accept yang bucks.
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Typically it is created as a coupon that can be exchanged for something local and specific. In this case, it could simply be a NYC tax Voucher. That would be legal to trade and accept in place of currency. Nothing criminal.
But you are correct that in the bigger picture it is a bad idea, with the single exception of a local problem with lack of currency (as happened in California 100 years ago when they had no mint on the west coast). Such problems have not happened in developed countries in recent ye
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Wouldn't the entire point be (Score:2)
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Can it be exchanged for US dollars? If so, then creating this currency is illegal because its printing money
It is not illegal. Anyone can write a note "This note can be exchanged for $10 from me". That is just a debt note, they have been in use for centuries. I am reasonably confident that there is no law that says that New York cannot issue debt.
I do not see the point though.
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While probably a pretty bad idea to create unlimited supplies of any money (a.k.a. just print money and give it away), I don't see your point of why it would be illegal. There are a number crypto currencies which can be exchanged for US dollars and they are not illegal. You can start your own at any time, why couldn't New York City do the same. Companies dig out gold from the ground and exchange it for US dollars, not illegal. Companies sell virtual goods and exchange them for currency, also not illegal. As
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Can it be exchanged for US dollars? If so, then creating this currency is illegal because its printing money - basically reducing the value of US dollars, and making the rest of the country pay for New York.
If it can't be exchanged for US dollars, then what is it? Why would a vendor accept it rather than US currency? What backs it?
He might be able to create some sort of special economic zone where city taxes are adjusted in a way to encourage business to stay in the area, but printing a new type of money won't do what he wants.
There's not a lot of detail to his proposition https://www.yangforny.com/poli... [yangforny.com]
Foster community economies through Borough Bucks.
NYCHA housing needs tens of billion of dollars in repairs8 and low income households are in need of childcare, home health care, and other services. There is enormous latent capacity for New Yorkers to help each other, but we don’t have the financial infrastructure to unlock that social currency. To unleash this potential, the city will create $3.4 billion in “Borough Bucks.” NYCHA residents can spend their Borough Bucks with each other, creating a trust currency that can multiply in impact through the city in the same way that dollars multiply in our fractional reserve banking system. In Sanger, TX, the community has experimented with an interesting model along thematically similar lines, using a points system to help community members share goods from a store-like food pantry.
And then there's a link to a news story https://www.nbcnews.com/news/u... [nbcnews.com] where a Texas school district gives "points" to students based on family size that can also be earned thru academic achievement or work and be traded for food in what essentially seems to work like a food bank but is designed as a shop in order to protect the dignity of economically disadvantaged students.
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You aren't even required to run a business in the US that accepts dollars if you don't want to as long as it isn't in payment of debts owed to your business. Of course you probably want to acce
State is the new Company (Score:4, Informative)
All this has been tried before, and will be tried again. [vcu.edu]
The advantage of Burrough Bucks (for the state), is that even if you manage to save anything you can't move to escape elsewhere - either your Burrough Bucks are worthless elsewhere, or you pay a huge fee to convert them to Texas Twofers or whatever.
Local currency was used in the past to keep workers beholden to companies, something the state is very keen on these days.
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We have many less currencies in the world because of the European Union's invention of the Euro that took out many national issues. Right now, Travelx is closed due to Covid... but all they really trade these days are USD, CAN, EUR, GBP, and JPY. We really don't want to see US workers paid in anything other than USD.
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You are going to have to provide a citation for that, a really good one.
Becoming part of the Eurozone means the national currency becomes the Euro - no secondary currencies, no half and half, the countries entire monetary policy, top to bottom, is Euro based with the ECB setting monetary policy for the entire zone.
Becoming part of the EU means you *have* to join the Euro - that doesnt mean it happens immediately, but it does mean new EU members have to have a pathway to joining the Euro in due course. In t
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You're basically correct, but I'd like to add Bulgaria and Croatia has opt outs and from the other countries left (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden), at least Sweden meets the convergence criteria but has just refused to enter the European Exchange Rate Mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] which is a requisite. There hasn't been much of a Eurozone pressure on the others to join or even provide a time table and I don't think it's very far fetched to attribute this to many of the l
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By 2015, there have been 19 countries in Europe that yielded their own currency to the Euro. It was a big deal for Lithuanian, which was tied to the US Dollar but switched to tracking the the Euro in 2002 before finally being replaced in 2015. And the sole currency of Germany has been the Euro since 2002.
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Arguably more than that. There are 19 countries in the formal Eurozone, but there are also 4 microstates which have bilateral agreements whereby they use the Euro and are allowed to mint Euro coins; and there are two other non-Eurozone countries which use the Euro instead of a national currency. I say "arguably" because it's complicated: Andorra used French francs and Spanish pesetas, and its own currency was purely symbolic; Monaco switched from its own franc, pegged to the French one, to the French franc
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France already wrote off the remaining unexchanged Franc notes, capturing it as revenue. They have no intention of honoring the currency. If anyone is still pegged to the franc, they'll be sorely disappointed by the performance.
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What? None of the Eurozone countries "still have their own currency also." 8 out of 27 EU countries use their own national currency *instead* of the euro.
What can be worse? (Score:4)
Yang, you're making Trump seem good. Please abandon your political goals.
Andrew Yang, self admitted moron (Score:2)
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It's true in the broad truth that any monoculture tends towards confirmation bias and inability to meet the needs of a market that is not only made up of itself. But being that men only talk to other men understandably can only arrive at the conclusion that the notion that diversity in leadership teams increases operational acumen is a load of hooey that could only exist for the sake of political lip service.
It should be obvious why men are loathe to give any credence to the truth of the matter, despite the
UBI is the "Bread" in "Bread and Circuses" (Score:2)
I wonder what Yang has planned for the Circuses.
Re: UBI is the "Bread" in "Bread and Circuses" (Score:2, Insightful)
No, UBI is the unfunny joke told by the circus clown past his prime.
Here is what's wrong with UBI in one sentence: paying people to do nothing incentivizes sloth, punishes productivity, fails to address the cause of the problem it claims to address, and is a corruption of democracy by literal vote buying.
No defense of UBI that I've ever heard answers these criticisms. At best they postulate that UBI has some other benefits that on closer inspection it really doesn't.
My favorite example was people saying th
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If you're not producing, you don't have any real political power, because you can't strike and damage the economy.
It would be of the interest of the megacorporations to get as much people as possible on welfare/debt economy, so they can't compete or have any sort of political power.
Um...what? (Score:2)
Is that not what we're already doing?
Re: Um...what? (Score:3)
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We are able to barter our talents and skills but I wouldn't want to live in a society in which I needed to barter for everything. Societies used to be like that before money and one spent much of their time trying to find people whom wanted their stuff to trade with others for the stuff that you actually want.
Or does Yang actually think bartering involves the use of a currency?
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The quote about bartering is from "a Bronx resident" who apparently hasn't figured out that you can definitely barter if you want to. Most people outside of small towns don't because it's a pain in the ass. It's unclear whether that quote is related to Yang's proposal or not.
Honestly sounds more like a variation on food stamps, which is founded on the idea that if you give poor people money they'll spend it on drugs. Turns out poor people actually spend money on food and rich people spend it on drugs.
People with Disabilities Might Benifit (Score:3, Informative)
Re: People with Disabilities Might Benifit (Score:2)
I don't think those restrictions exist anymore. All they really look at now is your income.
Local currency isn't going to fix things (Score:2)
Having a local currency isn't going to fix a local economy in the current environment. The issue is that we're in a pandemic and people can't get out to spend and earn money. It doesn't matter what currency they use. And it also doesn't matter what currency they are paid in if the hourly wage isn't enough to live on.
Company scrip (Score:3, Funny)
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'Escape from New York'
wanna spill the blood of a hippy (Score:2)
We had something like this back in the 90's at hippysville Bellingen.
I earned credits working for other small businesses and individuals in town,
and could exchange my credits for goods or services from others in the group.
It was good, worked, but you still needed money for rent and purchases,
the credits didn't convert to money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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the credits didn't convert to money.
If they can be used to buy stuff, someone will be willing to give you A$ for them, most likely at less than face value.
here's the truth behind UBI (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't be negative - it solves a problem (Score:2)
Andrew Yang is a nutjob (Score:3, Informative)
None of the 'arguments' for UBI have ever convinced me it's anything but utterly ridiculous. Of course people want free money! People who can't think past tomorrow, that is. It just will not work, ever.
deluded (Score:2)
am I the only person here that would love to live in a society where we can actually barter our talents and skills
WTF? we do live in that exact society right now. You can barter your skills and talents for a job or if you wish you can do it for chickens or pumpkins if you wish, we use money as Bartering for items or skills is difficult and often requires lopsided deals. Having an intermediary of cash makes things easier but it is by no means required.
Spending other people's money (Score:2)
"Here's $1 grand. Hey, what do you think about getting more free money?"
Well, duh.
It's buried a long, long ways down the article, after a long, tear-jerking tale of a woman who was one of the $1 grand recipients. Nonetheless, at least the author is honest enough to print this:
Yay! (Score:2)
Will Simply Recreate the Same Dynamics with New $ (Score:2)
"I was like, you know, am I the only person here that would love to live in a society where we can actually barter our talents and skills, instead of depending on this economy that's not working for us?"
Then many people will quickly learn that a lot of sellers aren't going to necessarily value your talents and skills at a rate you value, assuming they will even want to barter with you for skills they don't need.
More generally, where "Borough Bucks" will fall apart is that there are a lot of material goods (both raw materials and finished goods) or specialized skillsets that most businesses are going to need from outside their boroughs, or their city for that matter, and I'm pretty sure most of those suppl
typical rich technolgist (Score:2)
So many rich technologists support UBI. I don't get it. UBI is a financial farce, predicating on the Fed endlessly printing money to drive further and further inflation. I think its really just a selfish desire to have the government to fund purchases of their products. These rich a-holes have concentrated all of the liquid money in their bank accounts and there is nothing left for the rest of us to spend, so they need the Government to start funding us.
What we need is tax reform, not hand-outs. How abo
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No. PP is correct. Tide is a currency [nytimes.com].
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Because all it takes to get ahead is hard work?
How many hours per week guarantees that you'll die wealthy? 60? Even as a janitor?
If all it takes is hard work, then maybe we should just pay everyone the same. Because we can't have those "work smarter, not harder" types getting rich while the rest of us suffer, can we?
Re:Rise of the dolist scum (Score:5, Interesting)
Because all it takes to get ahead is hard work?
No, but you very rarely get ahead by being lazy and complaining...
How many hours per week guarantees that you'll die wealthy? 60? Even as a janitor?
IIRC Thomas Sowell already wrote about this in one of his many books on the subject. Rich and poor are not static states that you live within for your entire life. Most younger people are poorer because they are yet to accumulate a lifetime of wealth. A lot of older people are wealthier because they have.
I think the published figure is something like something like 50% of all people will enter the top wealthiest 10% at some point in their life.
I suggest watching a few of his videos on YT.
Re: (Score:2)
I can't take Sowell seriously because he doesn't believe systemic racism exists.
He's not alone. A lot of very smart people and wealthy people think hard work is all it takes to get ahead because they worked hard and got ahead, not realizing that being born smart or wealthy was a major factor in their own success.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I can't take Sowell seriously because he doesn't believe systemic racism exists.
He didn't say "it doesn't exist" he said "it has no meaning in a way that can be specified, and tested, in the way that one tests hypotheses. Even the people who use [the word] don't have any clear idea of what they are saying."
Prove him wrong. Define "systemic racism" in a way that can be tested, and demonstrate that it does exist. Since you insulted him, you ought to have the science to back up your insult.
Re:Rise of the dolist scum (Score:4, Insightful)
The test is to measure income and wealth by race. If income and wealth are not equal across races,
So you take the idea that income varies among race, and then jump to the conclusion that it must be because of racism? That's not scientific. It's not even logical, it's jumping to a conclusion.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
See? I knew you wouldn't couldn't provide an alternative explanation,
Saying, "I don't know" is scientific. Asserting to know something is not. Jumping to conclusions is not.
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No. You didn't provide an explanation. Because you have tried to imply correlation = causation.
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No. Because income isn't determined by your race. Nor vice versa.
It also COMPLETELY ignores any other factors but those two.
Income/wealth isn't "equal" across ANY demographic. EVER. Because it doesn't work that way.
Disparity exists because people and circumstances are infinitely variable.
The only variable that gives you ANY real control over your financial status is your own sweat-equity input.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
And why should he?
All systemic racism is, is a communist narrative of eternal slavery to your victimhood complex.
No sane person in this country gives a shit what color you are, nor what gender you are.
Nor your sob story.
If you aren't willing to bust your ass for what you want, you don't deserve it.
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You are NEVER guaranteed "wealth".
All you're promised is the OPPORTUNITY to become wealthy.
All UBI and crap like it are promising is an equal level of poverty.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I see, you think hard work should only guarantee survival, not prosperity.
I don't think I want to live in your ideal, dystopic society.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Considering that even destitute people in the US live in a level of luxury unheard of even 100 years ago?
Basically you've spent your life with so much privilege that you quite simply can't understand what truly poor people face.
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Re: (Score:2, Troll)
You want a different argument? How about this one: 'UBI' violates the Laws of Thermodynamics. 'Getting something for nothing'. It all has to come from somewhere! Even if you lived 'off the grid', grew your own food, made everything yourself that you own, it still takes WORK to make all that happen, it doesn't just magically appear out of thin air
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Are you're joking, or do you actually believe that everyone who was born wealthy still has to work?
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Of course not.
You fail to realize the basic fact that people's wealth status changes throughout their lives.
And if you don't do actual work, your status just, more or less continuously, goes DOWN.
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It's actually the opposite. US is starting to have the same problem as the rest of the developed world, in that each next generation is smaller than the previous one. So they inherently have less voting power.
And as people age, they accumulate resources, and actually get on the losing side of the "redistribute wealth" part of the equation. So every generation starts to vote more conservatively as they age.
As the old saying goes, "if you're not a communist in your youth, you have no heart. And if you're not
Re: (Score:2)
that is usable in any local business
This idea has been tried before. Most businesses will NOT accept the local currency.
A grocery store will not accept the currency because they can't use it to either pay wages or buy groceries from wholesalers.
Past experience is that local currencies are accepted by businesses with very high margins, so they can afford to absorb the transaction costs. These businesses are:
1. Service businesses
2. Drug dealers.