Sony Won't Back Down On $1,400 In Charges Made To Grandmother's Credit Card (ctvnews.ca) 317
Long-time Slashdot reader theshowmecanuck writes:
A grandmother let her 13 year old grandson use her credit card to buy added content for one of his games for which she thought would be a $15 charge. After the account opened up because of the credit card on it, he started downloading other things not realizing they were adding substantial charges to her credit card. She asked Sony to refund the charges, it's not like they can't disable the added content if they wanted, but they told her basically too bad so sad.
From the article: When CTV News Toronto reached on to PlayStation on Liscoumb's behalf a spokesperson said "We reviewed this case at your request and determined that it did not qualify for a refund as outlined in our terms of service and user agreement."
"I'm just heartbroken and Visa said they can't do anything, because I'm the one that put the credit card into the system," [the grandmother, Diana] Liscoumb said... Liscoumb said it will be difficult to pay back the $1,400 in charges and says her grandson is upset too. "He even offered to get a job when he turns 14 to help pay for it."
This story drew a range of reactions from Slashdot readers:
From the article: When CTV News Toronto reached on to PlayStation on Liscoumb's behalf a spokesperson said "We reviewed this case at your request and determined that it did not qualify for a refund as outlined in our terms of service and user agreement."
"I'm just heartbroken and Visa said they can't do anything, because I'm the one that put the credit card into the system," [the grandmother, Diana] Liscoumb said... Liscoumb said it will be difficult to pay back the $1,400 in charges and says her grandson is upset too. "He even offered to get a job when he turns 14 to help pay for it."
This story drew a range of reactions from Slashdot readers:
- "This was a $1400 lesson that hopefully they both learned. Never trust a corporation to do the right thing."
- "This is not on the vendor it is on the grandson, his parents and his grandmother... This should not be a news story at all. This should be a private learning lesson for the child, and his guardians."
- "The real problem is still that companies are putting addictive gambling mechanics into games."
- "Someone at Sony should fix the problem."
If they refunded you, they’d have to refund (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to ref (Score:5, Informative)
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Will does gift credit card work?
I'm sure you pay a fee for those, however, it sounds like that will back itself back manifold on first blunder.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to ref (Score:5, Informative)
I was going to suggestion the same thing. Buy a prepaid gift card by Visa. It's a real card and even once it dries up, will still work for free trial signups as well. Also typically reloadable for $5 at a grocery store (safeway does this).
Basically, protect yourself and stop handing your credit card to your children which typically do not grasp the concept of a dollar. Not the child's fault, many adults don't seem to understand it either.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to re (Score:4, Insightful)
Buy a prepaid gift card by Visa. It's a real card and even once it dries up, will still work for free trial signups as well.
Many of the free trials refuse prepaid cards, especially dodgy ones like scribd. I guess at least that's a clue that you shouldn't be signing up to those services.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to re (Score:4, Interesting)
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Revolut virtual cards. They are indistinguishable from a standard card.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to ref (Score:4, Interesting)
Canada Post sells refillable cards that cost $3 to refill and are taken by most places. They do want ID though. I don't think you can get refillable cards at the grocery store, just ones with $50 or so in funds. Last government passed a lot of rules supposedly to stop terrorism and this one doesn't want to go into an election with the Conservatives pointing at them as being soft on terrorism so the rules stay in place.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to re (Score:4, Informative)
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" sounds like that will back itself back manifold on first blunder."
Text to speech?
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It doesn't cost much to do that. I have one for my niece.. It works nicely, and has limits on each card in the system.
All of them are tied to physical addresses (which is the bit that some places reject over), so they're accepted for pretty much everything.
Except there's only as much money as is loaded onto the card.
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Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to ref (Score:5, Informative)
Also a huge reason why Apple requires you to use their payment system. If any developer took Paypal or credit cards directly, Apple would get a lot of phone calls for refunds they can't offer because they never did the charge in the first place.
Apple's only recourse would be to tell the customer that if they deny the charge, they have to do a chargeback or contact the developer themselves. Which is a shitty customer service experience but the honest truth since Apple cannot validate any transaction they didn't do.
The instant Apple allows developers to use other payment systems, the headline will read "Apple refuses to refund $10,000 credit card charge". Because some developer bilked some guy for $10,000 for in-app payments that were not handled by Apple.
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Easy enough done, simply mandate by law that virtual products must be returnable. Unsatisfied with the product by law you should be able to return, no wear no tear no restocking feed, just a delete. By law the return of virtual goods should be mandated. Especially when the company no longer supports the game and tries to delete the virtual goods it sold.
Mandate the legal return of virtual goods for a refund, make it the law, harass the crap out of your politicians until they comply.
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Iâ(TM)m an IT person
You're an IT person who posts unicode on slashdot. Just saying.
Re:If they refunded you, they’d have to refu (Score:5, Insightful)
You shouldn't be allowed to use a credit card directly. You should be required to use the credit card to buy gift cards. Then use the gift card credit.
Once the gift card runs out you need to buy another gift card. It's hard for that process to run out of control without your knowledge because you're literally required to buy gift cards.
Re:If they refunded you, they'd have to refu (Score:5, Informative)
> You shouldn't be allowed to use a credit card directly. You should be required to use the credit card to buy gift cards. Then use the gift card credit.
It looks like that's an option [playstation.com].
I've never seen the input screen in question, but if it's not an obvious option to buy a limited gift card, some creative class-action lawyer will 'discover' that Sony intended to create a situation where unauthorized charges are likely to accrue. He might find a judge who agrees.
If it's obvious and the grandma was naive, well, she wasn't on Slashdot when Sony was rootkitting people's PC's with hidden tracks on audio CD's.
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Akio Morita died in 1999. Whatever vision, integrity, customer and product orientation, Sony once had, is long gone.
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They've been that way for decades. I purchased one of the first CD players to come to the market because they had a $100 rebate in one of our military papers when I worked in Germany ('83-85). After the purchase, you had to submit the receipt and your info to get the rebate. When I did, it was declined because I didn't live in the US. There was nothing indicating that was a requirement, and they were clearly advertising to military overseas. Fuckers.
Re:If they refunded you, they'd have to refu (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony Music != Sony Electronics != Sony Entertainment
We're not used to this in the Americas or in Europe, but in Japan companies have multiple branches with the same parent name. You remember when Sony tried to sue Sony in court, right?
Re:If they refunded you, they'd have to refu (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony Music != Sony Electronics != Sony Entertainment
We're not used to this in the Americas or in Europe, but in Japan companies have multiple branches with the same parent name. You remember when Sony tried to sue Sony in court, right?
Perhaps if one of these branch companies didn't want the guilt by association they are guaranteed to have by associating themselves with the parent company name, they should learn not to choose to use that name...
Oh, wait, they don't have that choice? They aren't different companies after all? But all under one company?
Sounds like the guilt by association is well deserved then.
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Not sure about on the console, but on the playstation.com store you can only purchase by adding a card or redeeming a gift card (it's pretty annoying).
I'd post a screenshot, but it seems to /. imgur urls are " Filter error: Looks like ascii art. "
Re:If they refunded you, they’d have to refu (Score:5, Informative)
This is roughly what Nintendo does. You pay with store credit, and you use a credit card to add to your store credit, which requires re-entering your account password if you want to use a saved credit card. If you are short on store credit, you can add exactly the amount you need to complete the transaction. There is an option to turn off the password prompt at the time you charge your credit card, there is a clearly worded warning when you enable this, and you still have to enter your password simply to access the storefront.
Re: If they refunded you, they’d have to ref (Score:2)
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"You are not legally allowed to engage in a contract with a minor."
well, you can, you just can't enforce it unless it's for food/shelter/clothing. (at least in the US)
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These are digital "goods" they can easily revoke. There's no restocking, no shipping, no refurbishing. Sony just sucks.
Yep, it's not like this is somehow impossible to do. I purchased a digital movie from Amazon, but it wasn't quite what i wanted, and didn't really know that until I started watching it. Technically speaking, once you start watching a digital movie, you can't get a refund any more (previous to that, just click to undo the purchase). Talked to a service rep, explained the situation, and got a refund, no problem.
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If they reversed charges on demand, even if they pull back the purchased resources, it's going to completely destroy their sandbox economy. People will buy up a bunch of loot boxes to sell off the individual pieces, and if they find they didn't get sufficient value to turn a profit, they can just back out the entire purchase. Even if this costs them the ability to purchase loot boxes from that account again, why should a farmer/flipper care? They can set up shop with a new account.
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It is deceptive though, something should be done.
Deceptive indeed.
Every time I order, say, food delivery, I have to put my credit card into a reader and enter my PIN code.
Once my son asked me to buy some game for him, and I did using my card reader. I was most surprised to discover the next time he asked me, that I did not have to use the card reader to enter my PIN code: the transaction passed immediately. There was no warning at the time that I bought his first game that this company would gain permanent access to my credit card.
Re:If they refunded you, they'd have to refund (Score:3)
Excellent FP. File the story under child abuse, but legal.
The only thing I want to add is that Sony is high on my list of companies I used to admire and respect but now disdain. Sometimes hate. Might be interesting to rank them to see which brands have fallen farthest. A few other candidates from my list of the fallen: HP, Facebook, IBM, the google. Dark horse candidate Toshiba, though I don't really hate them. It's just that Toshiba bet the company on nuclear power and lost. Some other people might include
First Rule (Score:3, Insightful)
Business model (Score:2)
Why didn't she do a chargeback? (Score:2)
It's pretty clear if she only expected her grandson to charge $15 and ended up with $1,400 in charges that the additional $1,385 were unauthorized. Credit card companies are usually pretty good about resolving this sort of thing, because merchants agree to eat chargebacks as a contractual requirement of accepting credit cards, so the card company is almost never out the money themselves.
Really, the only problem with doing a chargeback is that you might get banned from doing business with that company in th
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Might want to look at what that does to one's credit rating.
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I feel bad for the family and do believe Sony should refund most of the purchases but the responsibility for the card lies with the card holder and she authorized her 13 year old grandson to use it. Most 13 year olds do not understand how credit payments work.
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Maybe the grandmother should have supervised the use of her credit card.
Maybe the grandmother should have been supervised herself . . . ?
Re:Why didn't she do a chargeback? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is likely the grandmother didn't realize that Sony would consider the "authorization" to be perpetual.
Re: Why didn't she do a chargeback? (Score:2)
You can go that road but it would mean the grandson is a theif. As a minor he wouldn't go to jail but it's still not good.
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This only happens in america. Visa and MC are american companies but they do as much or as little local laws allow them to do. If laws allow them to fuck you over, they will fuck you over. For example over here, unless you're at least "platinum", there is no number you can call and talk to a real person. If you're a "visa classic" or "visa gold" holder, you can't reach a human, and thus, you can't dispute a charge. You can report your card as stolen but you have to pay for any charges made until you report
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You mean Canada?
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The story is about Canada, and my post is about america. Things that are the norm in America aren't necessarily the same in Canada. Maybe in Canada chargebacks work the same as in the USA. Maybe not.
I know in Argentina they aren't.
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I am assuming she must of not known or put off calling too long? Maybe their are credit card companies who are so poor that they cannot fix this sort of thing for you, but honestly it sounds pretty simple. I recently had to file a fraud claim (against Walmart) and it was as simple as stating that "I did not make the purchase." For it to count as a legitimate claim. It did not matter that I had given Walmart my credit card and validated similar purchases.
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He could end up charged as an adult and hit with a grand theft charge.
Sad... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I only visit /. now to laugh at the luddites.
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People need to learn to understand the terms and conditions on the activities they undertake, be that studying in the USA
When there's not much of an alternative, this isn't a useful lesson.
State schools in my state cost more than one can make at a full-time shitty retail job. And those employers don't offer full-time anyway. So, the realistic options are 1) have parents that can pay, 2) the relatively small number of scholarships, 3) loans.
Can't really blame people for taking option 3 when that's their only option if they don't want shitty retail jobs forever. And as much as Slashdoters love to fawn over the trades, 1) the
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You're so full of shit. The 13 year old knew _exactly_ what they were doing.
Thirteen year olds are _very_ tech savvy. Add a credit card to the account, they can purchase whatever they want to purchase. It will (probably) ask every time, "Do you want to purchase this item for $xx?" And so they did.
Then the "kids" get-out-of-jail-free card: "Whoops, I didn't mean to do that!"
but it was a thirteen year old making this financial contract -- _that_ is invalid. It would take a lawyer, but this would never stand t
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In fact, lets add a +1 and a +2:
- In case of a minor making a purchase that is later declared invalid or refunded, then:
a. the payment processor shall refund all fees for said purchase (Sony doesn't suffer where it has to refund 100% and eat the fees)
- In the case of a minor making a purchase that is non-revokable,
a. The merchant must refund any profit and
b. the payment processor must refund all fees for the transaction
(no one shall _profit_ from this transaction)
Yes, it opens it up to "teens" making a purc
Simillar issue here (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Simillar issue here (Score:4, Insightful)
So wait, it's sony fault your kid stole your wife's credit card to charge 120 Euros on Fortnite? No way that's Sony's fault.
Re: Simillar issue here (Score:3, Informative)
Re: Simillar issue here (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony are not benefiting from a crime if no crime has been committed. The OP could report the crime to the police, then Sony would have no choice but to refund, or the credit card company would do a automatic chargeback. I've had my credit card number stolen a couple of times over the years, one time thieves bought over $3,000 at a hardware store, another time over $2,000 at Apple, and there was no problem whatsoever getting the money back once I signed a declaration that it was not me, and whoever charged it, used stolen credit card.
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Sony are not benefiting from a crime if no crime has been committed. The OP could report the crime to the police
A crime does not have to be reported in order for it to be a crime.
And if you think reporting this would be a good thing, please don't have children.
Re: Simillar issue here (Score:4, Informative)
This probably depends on specific jurisdiction but in most places it's not an official crime until a judge or a jury says it is.
No, that's a conviction for a crime. The crime happened whether or not anyone was convicted for it.
In this case, there is no crime or even allegation of a crime, since the OP refused to file a complaint.
Once again, one does not have to report a crime for a crime to have taken place. One reports a crime in order to get law enforcement involved in catching the perpetrator of the crime. But the crime already happened - that's why you have anything to report.
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what cost?
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Greed, on the part of bad parenting (not bad parents) for not taking responsibility for their actions and their kid's actions. The fault is with your kid - prosecute or eat the charges that is the parents choice. Whining about the companies not refunding is more childish than your child's selfish actions.
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Okay, you both make good points. I would strongly suggestion you get prepaid visa gift cards going forward, as we all know nothing is actually going to happen to Sony over this kind of behavior.
It would be nice to go back to the pay once for the entire game and be done paying model. Even then early MMO model of pay monthly for server access was better then what we have now.
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Did you ask for a charge-back at least through your bank?
Well they will now (Score:2)
Also they make it entirely too easy to make those purchases, especially for FIFA and NBA2k. Hell, NBA2k put a literal casino in the last game installment.
nt (Score:2)
Prepaid credit card can be bought in supermarkets (Score:2)
Is not like a gran-gran who does not know how apps and games works is doing her grocery purchases in Amazon Fresh or Blue-Appron. she probaly buys her food in a brick and mortar supermarket, and her medicines in a meat-space pharmacy.
In those places you can buy prepaid credit cards, not gift cards, mind you, but real credit cards. Those are prominently displayed, because the company wins a nice profit on what is essentialy a very small piece of cardboard and plastic.
There are both one-use and rechargeable t
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Secured and prepaid are good options.
Credit card types. [experian.com]
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except the services detect and reject signing up with those cards.
Use prepaid gift cards (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to buy my kids Visa prepaid gift cards for on-line gaming. These were non-reloadable cards that cost face value.
One nice feature is that when the balance was down close to over $1, I would set the card aside for use on websites that required a credit card. The websites would validate the credit card with a $1 fake charge, which would be approved. I used the same $1.25 remaining balance gift card on many game sites.
I saved a lot of money because countless games would have sneaky in-app purchases that were attempted to be charged.
In the U.S. heer is what I did. (Score:5, Informative)
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Once the card amount was refunded , I refused to make a statement or make an appearance in court
The prosecutor on your case decided to not bother. That does not always happen, and you do not have the option to "refuse" to go to court if they decide they'd like to try the case.
Also, assuming it's a misdemeanor charge you may be testifying before a judge, not a jury (varies by state). He's going to not be pleased if you "refuse" to testify, or attempt to change your previous sworn statements.
Your legal advice is extremely dangerous and could easily destroy a lot of lives.
The is the same company (Score:5, Insightful)
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I have not forgotten how Sony put root kits on their customer's systems with zero disclosure (through audio CDs), got hit with a class action lawsuit over it, lost, and then went and did the very same thing again.
I will never forget. Nor will I ever use Sony services.
They are a whole pack of thieves who see customers as victims waiting to be exploited.
Laws need to be updated (Score:3)
A new consumer protection law needs to be set up to make this type of thing illegal. Basically, they make it easy to understand and easy to accomplish to enter your credit card information to make a purchase, but make you jump through other hoops to use parental controls, add spending limits, etc. The fact one of the remedies the Playstation rep proved was to delete the credit card info says it all.
They should be required to get permission for each specific charge and make it very clear that it is a new charge. As it is, they're doing just like strip clubs and slyly running up your tab once they get your credit card on file.
Re:Laws need to be updated (AWS,Azure, GCS) (Score:3)
Agreed. And let's make sure that law makes Amazon [amazon.com] ("Here are some suggestions to help you avoid unexpected charges on your bill."), Microsoft, [azure.com] ("We are in discussions with the cost management team to see if this capability can be done and when. Nothing is planned at this time.") and Google [google.com] ("After you enable billing, there is no limit to the amount that you might be charged.") provide a way to actually limit - not "help limit" - charges.
never give a gun to ducks (Score:2)
Or, in this case, never give a CC to teenagers.
Also relavant, The legal principle of "ignorantia juris non excusa" (Ignorance of the law is no excuse). https://njsbf.org/2018/04/23/i... [njsbf.org]
In game stores... (Score:2)
... wouldn't have been possible without them stealing videogames and backending games to begin with. Beginning with ultima online in 97 when the computer illiterate masses got internet. Teaching Sony and the rest of the game industry that the average gamer is a computer illiterate moron.
That's how we ended up with steam/uplay/battle.net drm/rockstar social club/etc.
Sony vs the Gaming Community (Score:2)
Sony had an opportunity to use this as a teachable moment and for some good PR. They failed.
I'd like to see a GoFundMe or something so other gamers can contribute a couple bucks each to help this grandma pay off the credit card and let this kid keep his goodies.
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help this grandma pay off the credit card and let this kid keep his goodies
Umm, no. That's not teaching either party anything. It's just a shame there's no way to connect electrodes to Sony's private parts to teach them something as well.
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It's a kid and an old lady. Clearly neither has a grip on the technology they're using. I agree that they have no business using things without understanding them, but the punishment isn't fitting the infraction for them.
Only vendors can make mistakes (Score:3)
If Sony had a glitch in their systems and accidentally gave away free games or deposited credit into people's accounts they would naturally expect to be able to clawback the misallocated funds. Shouldn't their customers be afforded the same protection in a similar situation where they inadvertently incur exorbitant charges well beyond their typical expenditures?
What is good for the goose is good gander.
Moron (Score:2)
Switch to Xbox (Score:2)
The way this works with xbox is that you set up a family group with your account (as administrator) and the child's account...
1. The parent can put a finite amount of money into the child's account, to give the the right amount of autonomy to buy stuff. No need to get a prepaid visa card.
2. The system notifies the parent of what purchases the child has made, so you can keep an eye that you're indeed teaching them the right lessons
3. It also keeps tabs on how many hours they've played, and lets you set up al
Credit card companies (Score:2)
The problem is the credit card companies. They insist on using ancient technology like credit card numbers with no way to control anything even if the tech already exists. The way credit cards should work is that you should be able to create virtual credit card numbers on the fly that have some specific maximum value allowed to be withdrawn and/or be able to specify what each company should be able to withdraw from your credit card. All this can already be implemented but the credit card companies dont't ca
Wouldn't happen with cash. (Score:2)
Citibank has pretty legit virtual account numbers (Score:2)
I signed up for citibank because you easily generate "virtual accounts numbers" with dollar and time limits - I generally use these in any questionable situations like this
I also have instant alerts set for any time my card gets charged - this has caught card theft at least once in the past few years
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Who are all the people defending Sony here?! (Score:3)
All the people saying they hope the grandmother "learned a lesson" and so on seem to me like they fail to grasp the real issue!
Today's kids are caught in the middle of a new reality where the devices they use every day as their toys/entertainment are expecting they've got bank accounts and credit/debit cards configured on them to purchase the software they run. When I was a kid and wanted a toy, I did exactly what today's kids are doing here; went to my parents or grandma and asked if they'd buy it for me. (Maybe threw in a promise to clean my room or do some chores in exchange... whatever....)
But now, that process means the adult has to actually navigate the whole process of doing the online purchase, including signing in with the proper login/password for the service supplying the software and putting all the card info in, etc. Especially for not-so-tech-savvy grandma, this is a real hurdle! (Heck, she may even struggle to read the text on a smartphone's tiny screen.) So it usually winds up they just trust the kid to borrow their card for a few minutes to buy whatever it is they want.
I've seen this play out with our own kids and grandma.... including dealing with unwanted charges to her card. In our situation, I'm not 100% sure if our kid knew she was stealing from grandma, ordering stuff she shouldn't have been. Maybe ... but honestly every bit as likely she just got confused, because she had funds added to her account by way of gift cards people gave her as birthday presents and so on. At some point, it seems very likely a kid with X amount of credit balance in an online account would think he/she had enough money to buy some games or add-ons, and not realize he/she had actually exceeded that and begun charging the overage to a credit card still on file from a past purchase.
What's worse about this whole thing is it encourages kids to ask for those pre-paid debit cards as gifts, so they have their own method to pay for these virtual things. Those cards are garbage though because they take fees right off the top of the total. So if the kid was supposed to get $50 as a gift, he or she now has maybe only $42-45 to actually spend.
Re:Sucks for grandma (Score:4, Insightful)
There's quite a difference between "don't have $1400 to your name" and "don't have $1400 of leeway in your monthly budget for frivolous expenses".
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you say that like it's a bad thing.
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It's not, but we still make holding debt a prerequisite for getting a mortgage, which is how they funnel the masses into "needing" one.
Old lady not computer savvy should have known (Score:2)
Grandma wanted to purchase something for Junior that both thought would cost $15. Does it matter whether Grandma gave Junior the number and he made the charge or if Grandma went online and entered her credit card into an online account from which repeated charges could be made?
Maybe Grandma should try contacting the Canadian version of the Federal Trade Commission? Could Grandma still dispute the charge at the Visa end?
But this is "knowledge in the world", and barely computer-literate Grandma should
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Just use the bidenbucks to pay it off
Is that like the con artistbucks from last year? The $1,200 then another $600? You know, the money people paid to the government and which they're getting back?
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The story even has the Canadian flag icon but I didn't notice it when trying to post ASAP.
I guess then it's even better because it's like what, 100 bucks US? :D
Re:And this is why I won't be buying a PS'whatever (Score:5, Interesting)
I bought a used Xbox One from a neighbor and have yet to attach it to the Internet. I only have a couple games but they are pretty fun. Also, no Internet required. Just put the disc in, install it and then every time you want to play that game put the disc in and play.
I've never given my xbox wifi information nor plugged a network cable in. It just works. I don't really use it that often but it does look pretty amazing and Madden 18 is a blast and obviously people can still come over and play multi player. Still no Internet required either.
I get I'm limiting myself here but I'll never get banned from my game library nor will I lose access to my games because the Internet is down or microsoft itself.
Ideally, in 25 years I'll still be able to bring it out of a storage spot and use it, just like my super nintendo and N64. They both still work and the games are still fun. Heck, I played Mario 64 the other day and had a blast for more hours then I realized had passed.
Re: Why is this news? (Score:2)
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Think I'm kidding? Take a good look at the prison stats, the teen pregnancy rates, the drug addiction and gambling addiction and alcohol addiction stats. It's not dominated by race, gender, or poverty.
I'm pretty certain that the teen pregnancy rates are dominated by gender.
You, my good man or woman, are a sloppy thinker. Why should I take the rest of your comment seriously?