US Adds Chinese Supercomputing Entities To Economic Blacklist (reuters.com) 81
The U.S. Commerce Department said Thursday it was adding seven Chinese supercomputing entities to a U.S. economic blacklist for assisting Chinese military efforts. From a report: The department is adding Tianjin Phytium Information Technology, Shanghai High-Performance Integrated Circuit Design Center, Sunway Microelectronics, the National Supercomputing Center Jinan, the National Supercomputing Center Shenzhen, the National Supercomputing Center Wuxi, and the National Supercomputing Center Zhengzhou to its blacklist. The Commerce Department said the seven were "involved with building supercomputers used by China's military actors, its destabilizing military modernization efforts, and/or weapons of mass destruction programs.' The Chinese Embassy in Washington did not immediately respond to requests for comment. "Supercomputing capabilities are vital for the development of many -- perhaps almost all -- modern weapons and national security systems, such as nuclear weapons and hypersonic weapons," Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo said in a statement.
Modeling peace. (Score:2)
Except computer modeling [sltrib.com] has kept the peace..
Goose, meet gander (Score:4, Interesting)
As FPs go, pretty weak. 'Nuff said.
What struck me about the story is the Golden Rule violation. We wouldn't want to be treated the same way. In particular, America would not like it if other countries started sanctioning every company that supported America's military. Actually, it's worse than that, because a LOT of countries can point at fairly recent historical events involving American military interventions. For the last couple of centuries, China has been one of the counties on the receiving end...
I certainly agree that China is becoming a major threat, but I'm not seeing how this is going to help. The root of the Chinese threat is economic, so in terms of evaluating the effectiveness as a countermeasure, the key question is the economic impact. I think that ultimately comes down to economic value, not military threats if you don't "honor our boycotts". If Chinese companies offer better merchandise at lower prices, then the customers will want to buy Chinese stuff. Even supercomputer-related merchandise.
From that perspective, I think the most dangerous recent Chinese attack was on Covid-19. Sure, they had to arrest everyone in Wuhan to do it, but they stopped Covid-19 and their economy barely missed a beat. The end result was that China gained economic ground against the rest of the world. China hit the brakes for a few months, but since then they are steady on the gas, while most of the rest of the world is trying to drive their national economies while pumping on the gas and the brakes at the same time.
And the big threat is that the Chinese government is already prepared for a MUCH worse disease than Covid-19. Several of the mutations of SARS-CoV-2 already look quite threatening. Looks to me like the rest of the world learned very little from the Covid-19 experience.
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So... how about if we ban the entire Chinese market instead?
You know, like they're doing to us.
Apple store: half banned?
Play store: completely banned?
Google: banned
Flickr: banned
Youtube: banned?
Gmail: banned.
BBC: banned.
Twitter: banned.
crunchyroll: banned
netflix: banned
blogspot: banned
amazon.co.jp: banned
The list goes on. China is banning or prohibiting entry for the majority of the American economic market. Why shouldn't the United States ban interaction with the majority of Chinese services? Who cares the
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Because China is smarter than that. You apparently see things in simpleminded terms of banning and tits for tats, while the Chinese are playing 3D chess. Even the bans are leveraged as opportunities to develop their own versions, but our economic counterattacks are then leveraged as justifications for the bans, while at the same time they know that the attractiveness of the Chinese market will sustain pressure (from those same greedy corporations) to "open" the Chinese market. Too bad the Chinese will be po
Re: Goose, meet gander (Score:2)
I'd guess very few of those are actually banned. They just refuse to follow domestic laws. If they, for example, hosted inside China, like many other jurisdictions require, then they can happily provide their services in China. They could do so tomorrow. So, it's largely their own choices.
The gfw serves to enforce the law. It doesn't discriminate on the basic of being American, or even on the basis of how much any particular entity works with the US military.... Yet. If the Chinese retaliated in kind, then
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You're kind of missing the whole "everything", but in a logical way.
China has laws. Laws that say, "The Chinese communist party is your source of truth. If you go against the Chinese communist party, you will be banned." So, following the law means propping up China.
This is contrary to the rest of the world. "Don't harm people." If the jury determines that you harm people, you will be banned.
So then, China is focussed in propping itself up, where the the rest of the world is not focused in itself, wholly. C
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As responses go pretty typical. Addresses nothing in the article, and exists solely so people can read your pamphlet.
Here's the gist supercomputers are important to modelling nuclear bombs. Guess what capability China needs to maintain? The entire summery even says it. So what happens if it no longer can do that?
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Except China can manufacture its own supercomputers for bomb modelling with in house tools and production lines and it didn't take a modern supercomputer to develop the first atomic bombs.
Re: Goose, meet gander (Score:2)
I think you're arguing the same side. I don't think China is above resuming actual testing, though I don't really know why they would, in the case of nuclear weapons... They have enough for their deterant and that's all they want it for.... They're not the USA threatening everyone.
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Also, it is clear China has enough nucs to make India, Russia, the US, England, North Korea and Pakistan start launching rockets from a
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> They have enough for their deterant and that's all they want it for
It's not for any aggressive purposes I'm sure...wait: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politi... [nikkei.com]
So perhaps they want to "deter" against Philippines / Vietnam defending their territorial waters.
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> Only a fool would think China couldn't deter Philippines and Vietnam with conventional weapons.
Even economic deterrence is looking like enough so far.
It's not deter. It's "deter" with quotes.
If I need to spell it out for you - China is the aggressor here, when Philippines and Vietnam are concerned.
So China is an expansionist, not as some would claim that its weapons are for "deterrence only".
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Moderately interesting thread, but just a belated ACK.
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NAK.
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The golden rule is a rule which in theory benefits all if all follow it, not one to follow in competition unless you like losing.
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Slow in getting back to the topic, but not really following your reasoning. Or perhaps you are asking me to clarify my comment?
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The root of the Chinese threat is economic,
No. Economic strength is what makes a nation dangerous, but active economic undercutting is not going to make China more manageable. The real problem is that China is a fascist dictatorship under Xi, and Xi has embarked upon an expansionist (military) policy along its borders. This has also resulted in domestic policies where they abrogate their treaty over Hong Kong, and conducting a pogrom/genocide against their Xiughur minority population, depending on the sketchy reports that the Chinese refuse to di
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Can't decide if I agree with you in some areas or if you're a crazy racist. Definitely sounds like you have an axe to grind and that you haven't studied much, if any, Chinese history, but you're throwing so many wild darts that a few of them might be hitting actual targets... Your opening seems to be self-contradictory, however. (And why the belated response to such an old story?)
On the one hand, I feel like it makes sense to ignore you, but on the other hand, it might be interesting to know why you are so
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and that you haven't studied much, if any, Chinese history,
Why would I? History is written by the victors, and China hasn't prevailed in the past century, against the West. Furthermore, history is useful for understanding the origins of a nation's mythos, but what's been dead for 100 years is still dead. Using a historical event that happened 100 to 1000 years ago to justify actions in the present is pretty distorted, rationalizing way to justify a controversial action, to put it extremely mildly.
then I feel like reminding you that removing him would be unlikely to make any immediate difference.
It would make a significant difference. Granted, there is a lot o
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Thanks for clarifying that you are in the proudly ignorant category. It saved me from having to make any effort to seek substance there.
I think it is safe to regard this as a terminated "discussion". Please feel free to ignore my comments in the future. I would like to promise to ignore you in return, but your handle is so unmemorable that it might be difficult. It takes little effort to understand that you aren't worth the effort of an annotation.
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Whatever, China bot.
Fuck it, just ban *everthing*. (Score:1, Troll)
Russia too. EU too. Anything left? Can we build the wall now? Roof too. No doors. EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! [mwctoys.com] :D
Let's see where this Trumping gets you...
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I literally don't give a fuck.
Ironically, since you are an AC, nobody else gives fuck whether you give a fuck.
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Mod parent Funny. Well played, sir.
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Re: Fuck it, just ban *everthing*. (Score:1)
If only Kamala Harris had won the election...
...she could properly deal with all them degenerate Negro reefer smokers??
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Russia too. EU too. Anything left? Can we build the wall now? Roof too. No doors. EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! [mwctoys.com] :D
Let's see where this Trumping gets you...
https://readerslibrary.org/wp-... [readerslibrary.org]
Why The Fuck (Score:5, Insightful)
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Walked into a Walmart lately?
Re: Why The Fuck (Score:1)
And pun not even intended!
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Because it is really damn complicated. ...
China is a big trouble maker for American Interests. So we shouldn't have trade with them.
China has a lot of possible customers. So we should trade with them.
Chinese Companies cannot be trusted. So we shouldn't have trade with them.
China is a military threat to the US, but as long as the Chinese profiting from the US they will not push themselves so much military. So we should have trade with them.
Blocking all trade with China, will cause a bunch of problems, a lot
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So you don’t own anything made in China? I find that difficult to believe.
Re:Why The Fuck (Score:4, Interesting)
Hard to avoid it, but some easy wins are in clothing, honestly. I've documented my search for non-MIC clothing, but if you're willing to spend more, you can still find stuff made here in the US, and usually there's a quality improvement attached.
To recap: in 2007-2008 I was buying Levi's 514s on sale in the $30-40 range. Every 6 months like clockwork, the knees would rip out. I'm a knowledge worker, why in the hell are my jeans, made from denim, which is is supposed to be a workwear fabric, wearing out in 6 months? It made no sense. Digging around I come to find out that Levi's really doesn't make anything anymore, they just put their name on stuff that they award to lowest bidder. Or similar. Anyway, found some more expensive Japanese denim, got some jeans, and it's been 12 years and I still have that pair of stupidly expensive Japanese denim in the closet I could break out and wear today if I wanted, and that's after a couple years of near daily wear. I've since found cheaper versions (I recommend weargustin.com) and pay about $100-110 on jeans that last me years (and yeah, I've still got my first pair, going on 9 years now? I've had to patch the the back pocket). The Terry Pratchett parable about the boots comes to mind. Anyway, I've since found comparable items across my wardrobe and given a moment can probably provide the provenance of most of my clothes, simply because I am careful of what I buy. Clothes are low hanging fruit, though, as is furniture. Computers, on the other hand, jeez, good luck. I'd settle for "assembled in the US" (hey, I've got a trashcan mac! but I bought this shit for dirt cheap a few years ago), but dang. Synthesizers you have to kinda dig around. Moog still builds in North Carolina, Strymon in California which covers most of my needs. I'll also settle for western built stuff (I've got some synths made in Germany, Latvia, Greece and France).
So yeah, it's sorta doable for some things, you really need to just be cognizant, do research and make the decision. It's going to take reaching a little deeper in your pocket sometimes, but those labor and environmental safeguards cost money. I think it's worth it.
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To follow up on what Rinikusu said, I've been doing the same thing for at least 3 decades. I can't remember how long it took for me to find a set of measuring spoons and cups which weren't made in China, but I found them.
The only things I haven't found substitutes for are sunglasses, winter gloves, and electronics. For sunglasses, one company manufacturers 80% of all sunglasses made in the world. Guess where those sunglasses are made? I'm certain for gloves, the manufacturing line is the same but they pu
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Because you're stupid and don't understand that China is so heavily integrated into the supply chain that it's basically impossible to ignore China. Moreover it's pretty clear that most no longer believe American propaganda after they've been fooled time after time. How many times do you have to have a USS Maine, then a Gulf of Tonkin, then helping "freedom" fighters in Afghanistan then WMD in Iraq. You must be from the Bush school of wisdom, where fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on you ag
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China is doing most of the things that the USA did in the 19th century. Subsidising its industries with taxpayers' money, setting up tariffs to keep out foreign goods that are too competitive, and building up a powerful navy so that foreigners can't try to impose their will on it.
Some mpeople think the Chinese are stealing secrets from foreigners, too. In which case they are emulating the USA in that respect too.
Although why a nation that led the world in science and technology, and that was using paper mon
Re:Why The Fuck (Score:4, Interesting)
Simply put, the USA is a hypocrite with humongous amount of greed.
* as you said, the US has done and in many cases still is doing: genocide against minority (check the American Natives' sad fate and sorry current situation,) stealing technologies, providing government subsidies, conducting industrial espionage, wiretapping everything and everybody; yet today it is attacking, often by fabricated accusations, China and others over the same things
* In attempt to get an upper hand against the Soviet Union, the US insisted to let Republic of China to become one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council which backfired decades later as the ROC was defeated and retreated to the Taiwan island and PRC took the seat.
* In attempt to win over the whole Korean peninsula, the US military crossed over the 38N latitude after pushing back the North Korea force and marched all the way to the border of China, that caused China to fight with the US and, despite of much much weaker military and economy, eventually forced the US to quit without winning, thereby establishing China's credibility on the world stage.
* In attempt to control Vietnam, the US lied about being attack and launched the Vietnam War (but refrained from crossing the 17N latitude given what it learned in Korea,) ended up with a life-long humiliation.
* In attempt to win the Cold War [*], the US betrayed its ally Taiwan ROC and befriended with PRC, raising up the super Asian dragon whose economy is projected to overtake the American's in just a few years, while the Soviet Union became Russia and still remains a military threat as before. Now the US is feeling sorry for what it did.
* In attempt to wrestle controls of Afghanistan from the Soviet, the US bred Osama bin Laden who later launched the 9/11 attack.
* In attempt to win against Iran, the US sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein.
* In attempt to revenge against Saddam Hussein, the US fabricated accusations of WMDs and launched the Iraq War which ultimately led to the 2008 Financial Crisis.
* The US was attempting to constraint China earlier, but due to 2008 Financial Crisis, it couldn't and China forged ahead.
* The US, in attempt to sell more to under-developed world and exploit their cheap labors in order to enjoy cheap products (who want to pay more for your gadgets?,) established the World Trade Organization and dictated its rules; now it is the one complaining WTO rule unfair and whining about globalization.
Today, the US is about the repeat the same mistakes it had on China: try to fight China by allying India whose population will soon surpass that of China's. Oh, nothing will go wrong there.
You see. The US has done all of these despite being the number 1 superpower but yet not powerful enough to defeat the number 2 superpower alone. Instead of coexisting with the number 2 superpower and lead by large margin, the US insist on defeating whoever is the number 2 superpower.
Nobody will defeat the US Empire except its own greediness.
[*] This was confirmed by Henry Kissinger the architect of the US-China relation, as opposed to the claim, repeated recently by US politicians, especially officials in the Trump administration, that the US befriended to China in attempt to bring "democracy" to China.
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Why the fuck are any western countries still doing business with China?
Same reason that companies opt to save 50 cents despite knowing it will kill people: money.
Corporations are sociopathic/psychopathic composite entities.
Using a component with a known defect and paying of families is cheaper than using a proper component and there are people inside the company who's job is to make the decision to save money. A lowly line worker may recoil at such a thing but their job is to stay unaware and keep constructing the product. They can say "I didn't know" but they are still part
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Why the fuck are any western countries still doing business with China?
Because they don't believe all the war mongering lies coming out of western tabloid media. The only real threat from China is its flourishing economy, quickly becoming the model for the world to follow, while the US turns hysterical as it loses influence. This "blacklist" is a sad joke and will only result in self isolation, or aggressive warfare.
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Greed.
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We do business with China because it makes us richer. You sneer at the 'weak-minded consumers' who want their cheap TVs, but that sneer should be directed at the mirror. Getting your TV for less money makes you wealthier, because it frees up money you can spend on something else. Inexpensive stuff from China has significantly contributed to increasing the US standard of living in recent decades. That's a good thing. It has also increase the standard of living of people in China. That's also a good thing.
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At the start to drive a wedge between USSR and China, because the US hopelessly overestimated USSR strength. Now the west is slightly pot committed and China successfully plays the EU against the US (because the EU are as always even greater idiots than the US, but with far more pretension).
Using sanctions to try to keep their industry far away from military development is at least a start to somewhat more rational trade relations.
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Why the fuck NOT?
I get why US citizens might not want to, but other 'western countries'? Why should they care about the USA maintaining it's 'top dog' status?
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Why wouldn't they? That's the point of a free market economy, its not politically driven. You are the consumer and you choose what to buy or not, not your gov. Else you don't believe in freedom.
Why are Americans are so stupid? You pretend you can tell others what to do with AI, Quantum Computers, or even old fashioned Nukes? What are you, the 60ies? See if the Chinese care. They even have the capability to destroy satellites, ask Elon Musk.
You want the rest of the world to remain in the stone age. You could
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That ship has sailed a long time ago (Score:2)
The chinese society is about as good at supercomputing as the US is today. Look at the HPC conferences: they are crushing it!
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The chinese society is about as good at supercomputing as the US is today. Look at the HPC conferences: they are crushing it!
That's why the USA is imposing those sanctions. When someone outcompetes you and outinnovates you, make up some story about how wicked they are and try to defeat them by restricting trade.
Which, like everything else you try, will hurt you a lot more.
This is why China is cultivating Africa (Score:1)
America is just too unreliable a partner. Once other countries start realizing, America's decline can only accelerate.
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"This is why China is cultivating Africa as a future market."
They are just buying it and they are paying more than the 24$ dollar worth of crap New York was bought for.
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They are cultivating Africa to do the same thing to it that the western world did to China.
:-) You presume much. If China cultivates in Africa what they did in China, then a very large part of the continent will be lifted out of abject poverty and illiteracy, and maybe stop the endless warfare being financed by the "west". Labor is being mechanized.
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What's next? (Score:2)
Chinese AIs can't rent processing time on Amazon when they plot to kill us all?
Yes yes of course... (Score:1)
Are these the same people that told us Saddam had WMDs?
What? (Score:1)
when the us cant stand the cpmpetiton (Score:1)
Tesla? Boeing? McDonalds? (Score:2)
...and you wonder why Tesla wasn't banned - it used to sell to the Chinese military, but it was up to China to ban it due to 'national security', and for good reason, I'd imagine. It was to the USA's advantage to have all those cameras driving around Chinese military bases. ...gotta imagine Boeing is of some benefit to the Chinese military too, if not to China's economy... ...and McDonald's too (other unhealthy American fast food available), since they likely provide food to the Chinese military personnel,