NBC News Asks: Is College Worth the Money? (msn.com) 157
Long-time Slashdot reader destinyland writes: "More major corporations are abandoning the requirement of a four-year degree. At Apple, half of their employees don't have college degrees," reports NBC News. They also note that JP Morgan is "actively recruiting" people without a college degree for programs that train them for careers in areas like operations or consumer banking (showing one woman who ultimately got a $70,000-a-year position in Human Resources).
NBC warns that "this path is untested. Many jobs still require a Bachelor's degree, and on average, a college graduate makes 67% more than a high school graduate." But they add that "as the cost of college rises, some say the returns aren't keeping pace" — cutting to their interview with Salesforce founder and CEO Marc Benioff. "To make a lot of money, you just need to get the skills. You don't need to go to college!" he tells them enthusiastically. "You can do it all online!"
NBC provides the example of an immigrant from Colombia who went through free online training with Salesforce that led to a job. And earlier in the segment Benioff admits that "I only went to college because my parents made me go to college...!
"Everybody thinks that if you don't have a college degree you can't be successful in the United States, and it's not true... You can create incredible value for the world without a college degree."
NBC warns that "this path is untested. Many jobs still require a Bachelor's degree, and on average, a college graduate makes 67% more than a high school graduate." But they add that "as the cost of college rises, some say the returns aren't keeping pace" — cutting to their interview with Salesforce founder and CEO Marc Benioff. "To make a lot of money, you just need to get the skills. You don't need to go to college!" he tells them enthusiastically. "You can do it all online!"
NBC provides the example of an immigrant from Colombia who went through free online training with Salesforce that led to a job. And earlier in the segment Benioff admits that "I only went to college because my parents made me go to college...!
"Everybody thinks that if you don't have a college degree you can't be successful in the United States, and it's not true... You can create incredible value for the world without a college degree."
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Re:Every few years the same question (Score:5, Insightful)
The other side of this is that a college degree often just acts as a signal that the person is willing to work at someone else's direction without close supervision, and can at least usually be expected to end up with a result close to what was expected. Between defamation laws and the incentives to get rid of lousy employees, past and current employers are often not a reliable source of that kind of information.
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Re:Every few years the same question (Score:5, Informative)
Half of college grads remain jobless for a long time.
Your link is using five months as the cutoff for a "long time". But for that to be meaningful, it would need to say how long it takes a high school graduate to find a job. It doesn't do that.
Overall, unemployment is much higher for the less educated: Unemployment rates by educational attainment [bls.gov]. A high school grad is twice as likely to be unemployed as a college grad.
Also, employment for college grads depends very much on what they studied. CS and EE grads have plenty of opportunities.
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Half of college grads remain jobless for a long time.
Your link is using five months as the cutoff for a "long time". But for that to be meaningful, it would need to say how long it takes a high school graduate to find a job. It doesn't do that.
Overall, unemployment is much higher for the less educated: Unemployment rates by educational attainment [bls.gov]. A high school grad is twice as likely to be unemployed as a college grad.
Also, employment for college grads depends very much on what they studied. CS and EE grads have plenty of opportunities.
Correlation does not mean causation. You would have to compare college graduates and high school graduates with similar qualifications before college. In other words: correct for the effect that a higher proportion of the most employable people go to college than not.
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:4, Informative)
how do you figure that the "uneducated" make less money?
I didn't say they made less money. I said they were less likely to be employed. They likely make less money as well, but I didn't say that.
what was the scope of that study?
it isn't a "study". It is a chart from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They regularly report aggregate information on claims for unemployment benefits.
did they include steve jobs and micheal dell?
Steve Jobs is dead, so I presume he was not included.
The unducated often have more than 100% employment (Score:2)
They work multiple jobs to make ends meet.
In Australia you can live well as a Tradie without a Uni education. But it is much tougher if you have no formal skills at all.
But at least you get free health care and decent free schools for your kids.
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Low-Skill Workers Aren’t a Problem to Be Fixed [theatlantic.com]
The label “low-skill” flattens workers to a single attribute, ignoring the capacities they have and devaluing the jobs they do.
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We need to think about what we want as a society from college/university. We clearly need skilled people, but probably don't want to force people to take certain degree courses to meet our needs. Aside from anything there would be problems if the forecasts for skill demand turn out to be wrong.
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:4, Insightful)
Wish I had mod points. Very well put. There are of course other ways of learning the same thinking skills. But university remains a valuable way. I think part of the problem these days is that people are looking to universities to set them up for their lives. There are cases of people suing universities when they can't get a job in their field after getting their degree. And universities are spending a lot of time fretting about this. Yet I know of plenty of successful people who are working in careers that were not their main topic of study at university, but grateful for the background the university education gave them. I'm one of those. I studied computer science, worked for years in IT, and now work in agriculture. The things I learned in university suit me well in my present occupation even though I'm not a software developer or software engineer by trade.
A few courses in statistics can serve everyone in this world well.
It's kind of interesting that in a time of so many educational opportunities, whether in a university or somewhere else, we see quite a rise in ignorance and a pride in that ignorance, and a devaluing of education. It's really disheartening.
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To be fair, many universities market themselves using getting a high paying job as one of the primary benefits.
I certainly agree that ignorance is nothing to be proud of, but there are many roads to becoming educated.
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> we see quite a rise in ignorance and a pride in that ignorance, and a devaluing of education
I blame schools for that for being too theoretical. Schools teach you how to calculate resistance, but they don't teach you where and how you can use that. Sentence in a book does not fix it. This could be fixed by designing and creating actual circuit board. Not those build according to instructions sets, but actually designing the board from scratch. "You want to put transistor there? Well better calculate wh
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A few courses in statistics can serve everyone in this world well.
If I look back on the things I found most valuable, from my STEM degree I did a year one course for stats and another in economics, yet I use them almost every day. It shocks me how many simple things in life can be dealt with by a basic understanding of these two things. They should be mandatory.
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...I never pay attention to whether or not they have a degree, and this is because I have found that to be a complete non-indicator of how well the candidate will work out as an employee.
I couldn't agree more, and from both sides of the hiring process. When it comes to developing software, I have *always* been driven. I was driven since I was 15 years old, and I'm still driven at over 50. I do it because I love it. I do it for other people because I get paid well for it. I get paid well for it because I'm good at it.
When I sit in on hiring committees, the last thing I'm concerned about is the candidate's formal education. I'm concerned with the candidate's technical and people skills. I do
Yeah it's the wrong question. $10K masters (Score:3, Informative)
Yep "is going to college worth it" is entirely the wrong question.
The first thing to recognize is that college != college. A Corolla gets you around just as well as a Ferrari, if not better. You wouldn't get a 20-year loan to buy a Ferrari when what you can afford is a Corolla. That's what SO many people do with school - take on huge debt to go to a school that's way out of their price range.
I went to a cheap school, and because some of the courses included industry certs as the final exam, my income inc
depends on the job position (Score:2)
We hire into data science positions. Candidates with PhDs in technical quantitative fields usually turn out to be the best candidates and longer term, the top performing employees who drive innovation and insight. Now a PhD (or often plus postdoc) isn't the same as an undergraduate degree of course---it's a few years of working independently in a difficult subject, and there is a strong intelligence & perseverance filter.
Software skill is less correlated. Though everybody codes, some turn out to be
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Putting all of that aside, the number of people who attend and fail or drop out is staggering and the financial bur
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Re:Every few years the same question (Score:5, Insightful)
But the question isn't simply if it's worth going to college at all - but if it's worth the current prices that it costs.
Most of the current increases in tuition have been driven by predatory government-guaranteed loans that universities and colleges (and private tech "schools" aka. diploma mills) abuse, so I think that at the current costs, it's a valid question to ask if it's worth it now.
However I do agree that, if you can do it (have the time/resources), it's worth going to college (or perhaps university, as appropriate).
Every few years the same baggage. (Score:2)
I'd say no especially when one takes into account all the horror stories that go with student loans. No other investment has that kind of legacy.
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:5, Informative)
Some time back I crunched the numbers on my college degree path vs a typical electrician's path. Being an electrician would have put me ahead financially until I was about 50. That's assuming I didn't go into business ownership, which is a lot harder to account for. I just looked at typical progression and average pay over that time. I specifically went generic, rather than making an assumption that I'd get into some niche field like wiring MRI machines or something.
After 50 my degrees and work experience opens up some good paying positions that an advanced electrician would struggle to compete with, plus a lot of investment and retirement options you don't tend to get as an electrician. Overall working conditions are likely a lot better too. As much as I hate crappy cubeland, it beats crawling around in 140 degree attics or -10 degree ones. But it's not lost on me that had I been an electrician I'd have owned a house a decade earlier, and a lot more of my life would have been financially comfortable.
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You left out those who do both by extending their time in higher education, and working the other job.
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:4, Insightful)
plus a lot of investment and retirement options you don't tend to get as an electrician.
How so on this part? Outside of maybe not landing at a company with a 401K your investment options would be virtually the same. If you landed a union job, you might even have the option for a pension as well, rare outside of union and government work these days. Also, being ahead financially until 50 opens up a lot of time to invest more in your retirement early on, where it counts the most.
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Profit sharing, stock options, employer matching of retirement investments, employee discount on stock purchases, sabbatical time that can extend working pay 6 months to a year when you're ready to retire, sick days that can be cashed in or traded for health insurance past retirement, etc. The further you go up the management tree the more of these sorts of things you'll start to run into.
If you stay as an hourly worker all your life, you won't likely run into any of these.
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Depends upon the company. I got some of those things and I wasn't particularly high in the company. Some things you got by virtue of being there for a long time. Also what kind of opportunities do you think a master industrial electrician working in an Amazon data center would have?
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With most careers, be reliable, and do quality work, and you can do well.
This isnâ(TM)t news, itâ(TM)s olds (Score:2)
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For most people paying for college is not a rational investment. In the past it has been easier for middle class families to pay cast, but over the past generation there has been a marketing scam that tells parents if they do not take loans to pay for their kids to go to best schools it means
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:5, Insightful)
Some do but from my understanding and experience, Most do not learn to think in College.
A Mechanical Engineer takes an entirely different course of study than an English major, or a Choral Major, or a [insert your favorite demographic group] major. Not all degrees are created equally and have the same level of coursework.
It is unwise for one to assume, even though it is a human trait, that all people have the same experience and levels of comprehension.
Re:Every few years the same question (Score:4, Insightful)
Many people do NOT learn to think in College -- at least in the Bachelor and Master level degree.
Some do but from my understanding and experience, Most do not learn to think in College.
A Mechanical Engineer takes an entirely different course of study than an English major, or a Choral Major, or a [insert your favorite demographic group] major. Not all degrees are created equally and have the same level of coursework.
This is very true. I double majored in History and Computer Science and then got an MA in an history-related field. I _love_ learning for learning sake and I greatly value the rigor of a traditional social sciences and humanities degree. I learned _more_ critical thinking skills from history, digging through archives to puzzle through an issue, marshaling arguments against extremely knowledge professors, etc., as I did in my computer science classes.
However... (there had to be a however). I think my experience is no longer typical--it wasn't even typical 20 years ago when I was in school. I think most of the social science and humanities degrees are crap, more concerned with indoctrination than critical thinking. I avoided courses taught through cultural anthropology departments, marxist English professors, etc., because I found those classes to be far less open to dissent and genuine discourse. My initial plan had been to major in cultural anthropology, so I did give it the old college try.
In my professional life I have seen many engineers who work well in a narrow lane, but ultimately lack creativity. I've also seen a lot of useless (imho) humanities grads who don't even manage to have acquired any writing, research, or analytical skills.
I guess the bottom line is, education is the sum of what you get and what you put into it. There are many valid paths (from trade schools or apprenticeships to PhD), and no path is guaranteed.
University vs College (Score:2)
Not all degrees are created equally and have the same level of coursework.
That's why we have universities. Colleges seem to have recently started trying, and largely failing, to offer university-style education. Yes, they can hand out something that, on paper, looks like a university degree and for lower-level courses they are similar. However, Colleges lack research and this impacts higher-level undergrad courses since students will not get exposure to the researcher-mindset and the course design that leads to where you have to figure things out yourself because you cannot just
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Where do you live? In the US "colleges" are typically a sub group within the "University."
I think it is true everywhere that some universities have a unit called a college which either administers a group of faculties or is focussed on student residence. However, the university is the degree-granting institution, not the college. While I am not in the US I did live there for a few years and colleges which grant degrees are the same there as elsewhere: undergraduate institutes which generally only grant bachelor's degrees not graduate degrees because they lack any real research although sometime
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That only applies to engineering degrees. I know a girl who went through and got her master's in English literature and I can tell you nothing she was taught involved learning how to think.
I don't think anyone in their right mind wants engineering or medical degrees to go away. The thing that needs to go are degrees that don't provide any useful knowledge or life skills.
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No, what needs to go away are loans for those types of degrees. Grants and scholarships can fund 'em though.
Basically school loans need to be looked at and evaluated just like other loans, specifically looking at job market/prospects with the degree being sought and the average salary in that job market for the positions the degree would qualify one for.
Re: Every few years the same question (Score:2)
Re: Every few years the same question (Score:2)
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Pretty much this.
I worked for a college for 11 years. Most Colleges live and breathe on money and will do whatever it takes to get it from you with only the least cash strapped or totally over-enrolled colleges refusing to take more students (which is few and far between). We practically would let anyone with a pulse enroll just because we knew that if they flunked out their freshman year, at least we got a year of enrollment out of them.
To Simplify, If you're going to college to make a lot of money, then y
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"showing one woman who ultimately got a $70,000-a-year position in Human Resources)"
Yeah, just like show how a Harvard dropout is now a billionaire who owns the world's largest social media company. Let's all drop out!
HR people have been the worst to work with by far.
Because they're not there for you, they're there to protect the company.
All HR suck. Mine doesn't even respond to emails regarding covid vaccinations. They were only interested in the results of my covid test last year because I had been to the office.
Let me repeat: all HR sucks. Some less than others, but they all suck.
No you can't do it all online (Score:3, Insightful)
Some disciplines require active teaching and peer-reinforced group learning or whatever the fancy term is for staying up late in the dorm doing proofs or writing code with classmates is.
That said, that doesn't mean a 20k+ per year university is the only or even the best place to learn it. Depending on what "it" is.
And some things like hotel management for example don't even make sense as university degrees at all. They're by their very nature more at home as apprenticeships than degrees. Journalism too probably.
But in America we like to outsource and credentialize. A long time ago we realized that cure-alls sold in bottles were mostly bunk, but we haven't gotten there with regard to cure-alls sold on framed pieces of paper and compliance checkboxes.
And btw I say this as a person where nearly everyone on both sides of my family hold either masters or doctorates in engineering or natural sciences.
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And some things like hotel management for example don't even make sense as university degrees at all. They're by their very nature more at home as apprenticeships than degrees. Journalism too probably.
Yeah, hospitality should be taught more as a trade, as it already is with culinary arts. However, I think treating journalism as a trade will only worsen the poor critical analysis skills I observe in many journalists. I've particularly noticed this with the COVID-19 crisis.
For example, journalists will tend to focus on the high number of COVID cases in California. However, California is expected to have the highest number of cases because it has the most people. States like South Dakota and Wiscons
Ivory Tower (Score:3)
Good movie on this subject [imdb.com]
Marc Benioff? lol (Score:2)
I have spent a shit ton of time in a classroom, and I will readily admit that having a college degree (or several) is not a guarantee of skills or knowledge that are useful to an organization. I will also note that some of the best IT and InfoSec people I have had the privilege of working with did not graduate fro college.
But the idea that Marc Benioff and by extension Salesforce is going to usher in the replacement for HR departments depending on the virtue signaling of degrees in hiring is somewhat comica
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It also ignores the fact that college is a good way to learn a lot of things. You don't need a degree to be a good programmer, but it's easier than teaching yourself.
That might hold true if you're a telemarketer, but (Score:4, Interesting)
What about all of the science and knowledge heavy educations ? Like engineering, medicine, law, computer sciences ?
I'll even go as far as to say jobs teaching, acting, and other arts educations holds a valuable foundation that you need in order to be GOOD at your job. Anyone can act, but to be a good actor, you need to learn how to act. And that's not just about doing. That's also about understanding, which is often something that most "self taught" miss, or take much longer understanding, if at all, with many mistakes and failures before they learn "naturally". Sure experience is a good teacher, but a teacher is a better teacher.
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But that teacher need not be at a university.
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But that teacher need not be at a university.
Yeah, acting is likely better learned as a skilled trade. There are certain things you can be taught in a classroom, but some things are better taught in an apprenticeship.
Tina Fey touches on this in Bossypants [wikipedia.org]. Although she had a bachelor's in drama, and studied at The Second City, she felt working with Alec Baldwin really honed her skills, and those of other cast members on 30 Rock.
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Eh, I do EE work without a degree and barely touch any math.
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Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
What an idiotic question. Go back to college, or at least high school and learn logic. It all depends on the person and what is studied in college. If you want to be a neurosurgeon, then I am not sure if you can study brain surgery off a few youtube videos and a self-directed curriculum. There are certain things that college is best suited for. There are certain people it is best suited for. The idea that it is a yes/no for everyone is stupid. College is the best solution for many people, even it's just a year or two of it. Others can learn what they need to learn outside of college, for others the military may be a better option. It depends on the person .. how autodidactic they are. And on their chosen profession. It's like asking "should an animal live in the Amazon rainforest or should they live in the Mediterranean sea?" ... truly a stupid question .. without even knowing whether it's a fish and then what kind of fish.
More stupidity from the MSM. (Score:5, Insightful)
NBC warns that "this path is untested"
This is how it USED to be done. It's only "untested" if you have no grasp of history.
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Re:More stupidity from the MSM. (Score:4, Insightful)
Untested in the modern economy. Having no degree 50 years ago is quite different from having no degree now.
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Combine gap year with study abroad (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Combine gap year with study abroad (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, rich foreign students reduce the cost of tuition and subsidies in many state colleges for that state's residents. The foreign students have to pay out-of-state fees. Also the increased foreign money revenue they bring into the US increases jobs (not just for professors, but the downstream jobs created too -- when they or the people they've paid for spend their money.)
Biggest benefit of college (Score:5, Interesting)
You get taught things you wouldn't have thought of learning or exploring. Whether it's in the classroom or from people in your dorm. Maybe even make valuable connections for later on. How many STEM nerds would take art or political science classes if the core curriculum didn't force it? Heck even Steve Jobs, who went for just a semester or two learned calligraphy which made him realize the importance of design.
Re:Biggest benefit of college (Score:4, Insightful)
Just knowing that things exist is huge, even if you don't remember the details or anything functional about them. Knowing things exist lets you return to them and dig into them if ever needed.
The most dangerous people are the ones who don't know what they don't know. Knowing a little bit about a lot of things helps with that quite a bit.
Doing what everyone tells me to do (Score:2)
And earlier in the segment Benioff admits that "I only went to college because my parents made me go to college.
And I jumped off a bridge, because all my friends told me to.
I guess it's that time of year again, where Slashdot asks the question it keeps debating over [slashdot.org] and over [slashdot.org] and over [slashdot.org] and over [slashdot.org] and over [slashdot.org] again...should people go to college? News flash! The answer is pretty simple and requires practically no debate.
The market tells us whether or not we need college. Want a chance at earning six figures after [slashdot.org]
Read very carefully.... (Score:5, Interesting)
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or what he DOES?
Seems to me many non-degreed billionaires or other very successful people making only a million learned various skills way before becoming successful. Some of these skills are excellent reading/writing, interacting with different kinds of people, able to build relationships with smart people instead of flakes, or ???. We hear about how some started off totally broke, driving a clunker or living in it. But they had skills to adapt into a well paying job or able to start a business organized very well it attr
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An honorary degree is not a degree, It's an honor.
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But you're not a role model for high school dropouts to follow. Average annual income for a HS dropout is 20-25k per year. So, you're roughly 10 times above the average. I'm gonna guess you're probably 4-5 standard deviations above the mean. You're the 1-in-100,000 or 1,000,000 case. Awesome for you, truly, but telling people that they can follow your lead is like Michael Jordan telling a crowd
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Higher ed is NOT for everyone. But turning people away from it. Ugh.
Well rounded education (Score:2)
Get one. Learn things outside of your intended profession. Learn to study about a wide variety of topics even after school.
This is not what politicians want. They want a highly skilled base of workers that will drive the economy. But not question them when they go off the rails about things the party elders deem to be necessary. The best term I can think of is technological savant. One who is skilled within their professional but incapable of comparing two paychecks*.
*Scott Adams' definition.
Leaping ahead... (Score:2)
As someone who didn't go to University (or Uni as it's referred to here in the UK), I've seen how graduates have leapt ahead of me.
Heck, in my 50's, I've got a pretty good income - way above average - but in my team, there are people with Uni (college) degrees 20 years younger, at the same position - on the same wage.
So, the one way to read into this, is it took me 20 years to reach the same point as it took them 3 years.
In terms of their student debt, well, I guess that could take as long as 10 years to pa
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That about sums it up. Sure, if you are smart and capable, you _can_ get there as well, but it is harder, takes longer and the smart and capable people with_degrees can build on top of them when self-educating. At least in the STEM area, a degree allows you to stand on the shoulders of giants. The most important task of a good academic educator is not teaching the subject, it is selecting what to teach because that is the part the students lack the experience for. That also explains 20 years vs. 3 years.
Als
Is College Worth the Money? (Score:2)
Sure, if you are in Europe and university costs about 200€ fee per semester, ( contains free trains, buses, metro and trams), it's a bargain, that's why so many US students come over here.
Origin of the word "Liberal Arts" (Score:3, Informative)
The other stream is "professional arts" which typically included medicine, law, etc. These were for the men of prestigious families, but who might not have enough inherited wealth to sustain them. Respectable professions, not tailoring or carpentry completely infra dig to the respected high society.
With this level of sexism and elitism that is congenital to the term Liberal Arts, is it any wonder so many people with liberal arts degrees find themselves holding degrees and knowledge completely useless to earning a living. ?
Understandably the liberal arts major who learned the origin of this term in a 160K history degree is not laughing.
NBC gave us (Score:4, Insightful)
The Apprentice, and the Kardashians. Yes, I think NBC should go to college.
Define "College"? (Score:2)
These days, eveyone goes to "college." What is "college"? Well, "college" includes so-called "community college" which is nothing more than high school remediation at best, and just a scam at worst.
Then, there are all the liberal arts "colleges." These made sense in the 19th century, and the first half of the 20th century, when women generally did not have jobs, and men's jobs generally did not require engineering or science knowledge. Those colleges produced traditionally "educated" citizens, who usual
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Well, "college" includes so-called "community college" which is nothing more than high school remediation at best, and just a scam at worst.
I don't know where you live, but where I live community colleges are a fantastic deal. They cost a tiny fraction of a regular college, and the quality of the teaching is excellent (I've taken classes at some of them). You go to a community college for two years, then transfer to a regular college for the last two years. Get your degree from a well known university for a little over half what it would cost otherwise. A lot of people who couldn't afford college otherwise do it this way. I have a friend w
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You go to a community college for two years, then transfer to a regular college for the last two years. Get your degree from a well known university for a little over half what it would cost otherwise.
In theory, this is how its supposed to work. Its great when it does, but I wonder how often that's the exception instead of the rule.
It somehow seems like many people actually end up taking 3 years to get through that community college, then still manage to drag the university out for another 4 years on top of that.
All down to the money... (Score:2)
College is a poor choice if it will create significant debt—maybe more than 50% of your first year’s salary. I think the best thing about college for me was it is kind of like a bouncy-house; you could try new things with a low chance of serious damage. I am happy with my path, but I can and do recommend other people look into the building trades if they aren’t sure about school.
Depends (Score:2)
who your advisors, mentors and access to leaders are.
ComSci was not available anywhere else. But even that was a fluke one course miracle. The other four years I’d love to have gone where the action-Jackson was happening. Work-study was slave labor but acquired confidence in discipline.
Gypsy around as fast, furthest from Home and settle for nothing less than your challenge you are up for. Seek out the best in a field. Don’t stay, don’t drink the Kool-aide. Keep searching until a mentor fin
Depends on the career path (Score:2)
Waste of money for most people (Score:5, Informative)
Learn a trade- ANY trade.
Plumbing, programming, electrical work,field service, auto mechanics, carpentry, real estate, etc etc etc.
You'd be surprised at how much these folks make.
Hell, open a salon. Good nail technicians can make $75K ~ $80K or more after a few years. But owning a nail salon will net you $200K or more per year. Net, not gross. From just one salon. Ask me how I know.
Or open a hair salon- the stylists actually pay you to rent the station when they come in to work, and you still get a cut on top of that. Own 2 or 3 hair salons and you'll be pulling in $250K net. Yes, net.
I have serious doubts about the actual value of a degree these days unless you need it to go into a specific field (engineering, medicine, etc).
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Yep. Roughly $166,000 a year isn't too bad.
Nail salon owners are very careful not to dress up or wear their jewelry at work, lest the customers have a sudden realization that this poor little "unskilled" nail tech makes more than they do. lol
Re: (Score:2)
Not everything on TV is true. Shocking, I know, but there ya have it.
In the good old days... (Score:2)
> At Apple, half of their employees don't have college degrees," reports NBC News.
Back when I would have loved to work at Apple, it took a master's to get in the door as a developer. Lobotomized computers and ever higher prices allow for easier staffing.
College degrees used to have a place, but they're mostly a scam nowadays when "universities" are glorified tech schools and proud of it. Originally it took effort and ability to get into college, and a college education included learning to think, learnin
Relative questions result in relative answers (Score:2)
College is for folks who are interested going into fields which require such levels of study to become proficient in them.
In this day and age, ( in the US at least ) college is only for folks who can -afford- to attend them. ( Unless you just love being in debt )
The rest of us learn trades or join the military so they can help pay for your education.
And on Sat April 24 (Score:2)
Slashdot reported on a speech by TSMC's founder Morris Chang that was originally in the South China Morning Post:
Chang said the US is also at a disadvantage compared with Taiwan because it lacks engineers dedicated to the semiconductor manufacturing sector, adding that the "US level of dedication to manufacturing was absolutely no match for that of Taiwan".
"What I need right now are capable and dedicated engineers, technicians and operators. And they have to be willing to throw themselves into manufacturing
Intriguing (Score:3)
It is intriguing that while they report this, local job listings in my area all want masters degree in computer science for even basic slightly above entry level positions. And, these are at inconsequential companies that are unlikely to pay all that well.
Re: Intriguing (Score:2)
Which market is that?
Once again, asking the wrong question (Score:2)
Have you ever noticed that the media regularly publishes some B.S. "survey" and draws some B.S. conclusion? A classic example is "Do you approve of the job Congress is doing?" What they never ask and should is "Do you approve of the job YOUR congressman is doing?" I'll bet that most people approve of the job their congressman is doing while also thinking that the other 434 of them are worthless.
This is no different. They are totally generalizing here. There are some professions where a college and post
Real message (Score:2)
Translation: Graduates burdened with higher debt are demanding higher salaries so corporations are seeking cheaper employees.
While the article talks of in-house training, most corporations demand experience, with the experience of a higher education being the minimum. While in-house training is how the labour market is so supposed to work, it has been broken for a long time and there are too many workers available to force corporations into assuming the risk they should. With that alternative gone, the
Depends on the degree (Score:2)
STEM degree actually proves you know something.
Liberal Arts degree basically shows you volunteered for 4 extra years of schooling that may or may not be meaningful. It shows you basically have the wherewithal to stick with a basic job, and is sort of the 'lowest requirement' for a non wage-slave level of employment.
But that's it.
yes (Score:2)
It's Expensive. What is the cost-benefit value? (Score:2)
The cost of college is more than 20 times more expensive than it was 50 years ago, outstripping the rate of inflation by quite a lot. Colleges have been able to continue raising tuition through good economic times and bad ones because the government has been willing to subsidize them with grants, scholarships, and cheap loans for students. The educational establishment encourages everyone to attend school for as long as possible to attain a better life. It's expensive. Parents scrimp and save, students
college is always worth the money (Score:2)
but it depends on whose money.
The value of good education... (Score:2)
is not in the income of the individual. Good education is mostly important for the society as a whole. Therefore developed countries typically will pay for education.
A well educated society has many advantages. For example it will have a demand for technologically advanced products. A good example of it was the US after the Apollo project. This caused the society to be well educated on technology. In turn this caused the home computer industry to be created. The USA were, for decades, a country which was kn
Not just about the money (Score:2)
Look, there is a tuition cost problem and that needs to be address with restoring grants, state and federal funding to make college incredibly affordable. Two years degrees at community colleges should be essentially free.
But, al this "no college" rhetoric has a dangerous unpinning. People without a well rounded education are easier to exploit by the powerful. Look at who is pushing this narrative: extremely wealthy people.
A college degree gives you access to a wider perspectives as well as a new level of c
Not all college curriculums are the same (Score:2)
I went to technical college. By the time I graduated, I had a working portfolio full of C++ projects, Android projects, .NET web applications, PHP applications, and vanilla javascript applications. I had passed courses for Cisco certs and Windows certs. I even had a portfolio of graphic designs (though I seriously doubt that in particular earned me any interviews!).
My colleagues at university learned Python and some Fortran. They had a portfolio full of console applications that could solve complex algorith
Yes. (Score:2)
It can get your foot into the door of places that would otherwise not look at you sideways. Unless you are very fortunate, not going to post-secondary while you are young can delay the start of a genuinely successful career by a decade or even more.
I won't deny that paying back the loans for the next 10 to 15 years definitely sucks, but in the end, I think the investment is worth it.
colleges need to transfer more credits & no ex (Score:2)
colleges need to transfer more credits & no expire. Or maybe make so people can to college but also get degree credit for trades / tech school classes.
Also maybe make it so that if you get an 4 year degree you also get an 2 year degree as part of it.
Re: (Score:2)
Those billionaires, using their media companies, are trying to put the idea that college isn't worth it in our heads because at the end of the day in order to pay for it we'd take some of their enormous wealth, and they don't want that.
Excellent summary, you have the knack for writing good analysis of subjects (i.e. "there is no left"). However, there are some still promoting a college degree because then that graduate will be in debt and able to more easily be manipulated.
I don't think they've thought that far (Score:2)
But we shouldn't lose sight of the value of education to society with regards to critical thinking skills. Those critical thinking skills *do* actually worry the folks at the top.
Re: (Score:2)
College is mostly a scam. You don't really learn much that gets actually applied to your job. I think the most semi-useful thing you can get out of it is sort of learning to be self-sufficient away from your parents. Even that could be better served in other ways.
I really think on-the-job training is more useful. Something like an apprenticeship would be a better way to go. Instead of college, you sign up for a paid apprenticeship that covers your room and board while you learn actual job skills. Too many kids treat college as just a time to get drunk and party, then just end up four years older with no meaningful job skills for the real world.
It all depends on the degree program. There are a number of degrees that are not much more than giving your opinion. Not surprisingly, they tend to have poor job prospects. The prospects are to continue to a Masters, then Doctorate, and then replace the person teaching the class.
On the other hand, there are majors with solid prospects like EE, ME, ChemE. Get a Bachelors and there's usually some place out there looking to hire people. The down side is that you have to work a lot harder, often spending even