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The Almighty Buck

Both Dogecoin Creators are Now Criticizing Cryptocurrencies (twitter.com) 169

This week Dogecoin co-creator Jackson Palmer addressed the question of whether he'd return to cryptocurrency.

"My answer is a wholehearted 'no'," he confirmed, before launching into a scathing Tweet storm. "To avoid repeating myself I figure it might be worthwhile briefly explaining why hereâ¦" "After years of studying it, I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity. Despite claims of 'decentralization', the cryptocurrency industry is controlled by a powerful cartel of wealthy figures who, with time, have evolved to incorporate many of the same institutions tied to the existing centralized financial system they supposedly set out to replace.

"The cryptocurrency industry leverages a network of shady business connections, bought influencers and pay-for-play media outlets to perpetuate a cult-like 'get rich quick' funnel designed to extract new money from the financially desperate and naive. Financial exploitation undoubtedly existed before cryptocurrency, but cryptocurrency is almost purpose built to make the funnel of profiteering more efficient for those at the top and less safeguarded for the vulnerable. Cryptocurrency is like taking the worst parts of today's capitalist system (eg. corruption, fraud, inequality) and using software to technically limit the use of interventions (eg. audits, regulation, taxation) which serve as protections or safety nets for the average person...

"I applaud those with the energy to continue asking the hard questions and applying the lens of rigorous skepticism all technology should be subject to. New technology can make the world a better place, but not when decoupled from its inherent politics or societal consequences."

Insider points out this wasn't Palmer's first time speaking out against crypto. "When Dogecoin soared to $2 billion in 2018, he wrote an op-ed on Vice, saying 'something is very wrong.'" Palmer and his co-founder, Billy Markus, created Dogecoin in 2013 as a "joke" currency as alternative cryptocurrencies flooded the market, promising to be the next big thing... It is now valued at $25.8 billion, as of time of writing.

Palmer and Markus are no longer part of Dogecoin. Both left in 2015 after deciding that the cryptocurrency was not aligned with their values. Palmer's co-creator, Markus, retweeted Palmer's Twitter thread and responded with a GIF.

In a later tweet, Markus added that "I think his points are generally valid aside from the pointless American politics piece."
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Both Dogecoin Creators are Now Criticizing Cryptocurrencies

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  • by mccalli ( 323026 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:47AM (#61596457) Homepage
    I was always amused that the first thing this alternative utopia world did was recreate currency speculation.
    • Twas ever thus (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:32AM (#61596601) Homepage

      Every revolutionary or hippie that tried to create an alternative culture came up against the immovable wall of human nature. People are people and the human brain will always revert to behaving in its evolved way given a (rather short) amount of time even with the best of intentions to try otherwise.

    • by dasunt ( 249686 )

      I was always amused that the first thing this alternative utopia world did was recreate currency speculation.

      Why would individuals hoard money otherwise?

      Money is a convenient means of exchange. There's few incentives to keep a large pile of it just laying around. Most of us transform money into something else - possessions, property, investments, etc.

      There's even fewer incentives to switch from well known, traditional currencies to a new cryptocurrency, since a new cryptocurrency is less effective as

  • by 91degrees ( 207121 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:22AM (#61596511) Journal
    Dogecoin was created to mock crypto. The very existence of the thing was a criticism of cryptocurrencies.
    • by Lisandro ( 799651 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:37AM (#61596521)

      Doge has a ~$23bn market cap. People keep pouring money into a joke cryptocurrency, which is just *chef kiss*. The entire crypto "market" is batshit crazy.

      • by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:01AM (#61596551)

        Doge has a ~$23bn market cap. People keep pouring money into a joke cryptocurrency, which is just *chef kiss*. The entire crypto "market" is batshit crazy.

        Speaking of batshit crazy, try and look at the (post-pandemic?) US stock market with a straight face.

        Might want to put down your coffee first. No sense in ruining a perfectly good screen.

        • The US in general had have a lot of economic issues growing up, particularly over the last ~6ys, but i've yet to see a -48% market swing in half a year like we're witnessing for cryptocurrencies right now.

          • Because the Fed won't let that happen to the stock market. And the markets will close if they swing too hard in one day.

            • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

              by Anonymous Coward

              Indeed! Regulation is good.

            • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
              Just lije when the general stock market/ any single securety fluctuates to wildly, trading is halted for a short time ( in extreme cases for the rest of the trading dat), it's sencible so what's the bid deal ?
              • Just lije when the general stock market/ any single securety fluctuates to wildly, trading is halted for a short time ( in extreme cases for the rest of the trading dat), it's sencible so what's the bid deal ?

                No, it is not sensible. You cannot pick and choose how much the stock market falls. That is manipulation. Markets must be free to fall as much as investors sell their securities. I don't see any collars to the upside. Shouldn't there be a limit to how far the market can rise in a single day?
                • by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
                  Hmm we'll just hav to agree to disagree then, i find the circuit breakers implemented by almost all exchanges now is a good idea, stobs the trading bots from going crazy (see flash crash et all) o r the firesake caused by the LTCM collapse.
          • The US in general had have a lot of economic issues growing up, particularly over the last ~6ys, but i've yet to see a -48% market swing in half a year like we're witnessing for cryptocurrencies right now.

            Trying to flavor the corruption here? What's the point in that? Just because crypto is the king of obscene price swings doesn't mean the stock market isn't just as bad.

            In fact, it's far worse considering the impact of a stock market crash. You've got a lot more invested in that market, than crypto. A HELL of a lot more.

            • Hey, i didn't bring the comparison up.

              Since we're at it though, i though the "currency" bit was kinda important in "cryptocurrencies". Ask yourself why people are "investing" on what's supposed to be a trading mechanism.

              • How about buying and trading on stock options instead of the stock itself?? Isnt that sort of like gambling on the roulette ball itself and not what space it will land?
                • Well, not quite. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of people trading options like it were a casino, but when you invest in the stock market you can at least evaluate fundamentals behind your investment.

              • Hey, i didn't bring the comparison up.

                Since we're at it though, i though the "currency" bit was kinda important in "cryptocurrencies". Ask yourself why people are "investing" on what's supposed to be a trading mechanism.

                Because Greed knows how to greed, greed, and especially greed?

                We act like that's a new thing. Ever hear of Gold Rush fever? People did a lot crazier shit that cryptocoin to try and get rich quick.

        • Doge has a ~$23bn market cap. People keep pouring money into a joke cryptocurrency, which is just *chef kiss*. The entire crypto "market" is batshit crazy.

          Speaking of batshit crazy, try and look at the (post-pandemic?) US stock market with a straight face.

          Might want to put down your coffee first. No sense in ruining a perfectly good screen.

          Dude, there's no comparison between the US stock market swings and crypto. And there's a rationale for the current behavior exhibited by the stock market at this point (which is not post-pandemic yet).

          The reason: TINA : there's no way but up. The US stock market is not just *us* but everyone in the world tied to it. The global economy is not going to die. It will adapt, and recover. This pandemic, as hard as it's been compared to other pandemics in living memory, it isn't a preamble to "The Walking Dead".

          • by cusco ( 717999 )

            The stock market lost any connection with reality during the Dot Bomb and has never recovered since. It's pure speculation now, rarely if ever attached to any real-world phenomena except in the most tenuous of manners. By all the gods, just look at the supposed value of Apple and Tesla, larger than most of the actual manufacturers in their market segment *combined*. It's no better than currencies or even the trade in actual commodities, a few years ago speculators drove the price of rice through the roof

          • Doge has a ~$23bn market cap. People keep pouring money into a joke cryptocurrency, which is just *chef kiss*. The entire crypto "market" is batshit crazy.

            Speaking of batshit crazy, try and look at the (post-pandemic?) US stock market with a straight face.

            Might want to put down your coffee first. No sense in ruining a perfectly good screen.

            Dude, there's no comparison between the US stock market swings and crypto. And there's a rationale for the current behavior exhibited by the stock market at this point (which is not post-pandemic yet).

            Wrong. There is a perfect rationale that explains why the stock market doesn't reflect reality. At all. It's called several trillion dollars in fucking bailout money.

            Had that NOT happened, millions of individuals would be bankrupt (and would have obviously pulled ALL stock investments out before that happened, causing even more instability), and every globally shuttered industry, from airlines to cruise lines, would have been dead long ago, along with millions of jobs. Throw in an endless stream of ince

      • by vadim_t ( 324782 )

        Regardless of the value of crypto in general, I think that makes it a surprisingly sane market.

        I think we agree that if a thing is created with utmost seriousness, yet fails to be useful, the market should reject it, right? But by the same token if somebody makes something as a joke, yet it turns out to be useful anyway, the market should ignore its joke status and adopt it.

        The fact that it has a weird name and logo and was created as a joke doesn't change that ultimately dogecoin is a bunch of technology t

        • by Lisandro ( 799651 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:25AM (#61596585)

          The fact that it has a weird name and logo and was created as a joke doesn't change that ultimately dogecoin is a bunch of technology that either does something useful, or doesn't.

          Well, that's the thing, i'm not sure it does at all. In the particular case of Doge, for example, you can tie all recent value swings to Elon Musk tweets.

          That's not currency, and not even a speculative asset. That's just gambling.

          • We in the Western, developed world are so spoiled with our bank accounts and our Visa's and MasterCards and PayPals. But a lot of people in the world don't have access to financial services like banking and credit, as we do. But, most people on the world have a mobile with at least sporadic Internet access. Even a crypto like Doge Coin is useful for those people as a medium of exchange.

            There are of course many, many problems with Doge, mostly due to the fact that it was intended as a joke. But there are bet

            • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

              Uh, you might want to go travelling sometime. Much of the developing world has pretty good systems for electronic transactions, and they often don't depend on VISA or Mastercard blessing you with credit.

              Meanwhile, last time I was in the US (a few years ago due to the pandemic) people in Philadelphia thought tapping your credit card to pay for something was magic.

          • That's just gambling

            Oh I agree. I find it odd that a site that commonly calls Machine Learning, glorified if-then statements, doesn't see the exact same in this. Just glorified gambling.

        • Doge isn't useful.

          • by vadim_t ( 324782 )

            I don't think crypto in general worked the way its designers and early adopters wanted to, in general.

            I think doge is interesting in that it's inflationary unlike most crypto coins, and that creates an incentive to use it as an actual coin.

            • Doge was never meant to be useful. You'd tip it to people for a forum post you liked or similar. Early on, you could mine out millions of DOGE in a single block. It's a deliberately bad Litecoin fork.

      • Doge has a ~$23bn market cap. People keep pouring money into a joke cryptocurrency, which is just *chef kiss*. The entire crypto "market" is batshit crazy.

        Hoo boy, I strongly encourage you to never google the origins of shiba inu coin then. It’s guano all the way down.

      • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        It's just collecting trading cards without the overhead of actually having trading cards. If you collected sports cards, pokemon or beanie babies and told yourself you were going to get rich, well, now you can do the same thing and not have to dust the damn things.

          It's not a coincidence one of the first big exchanges was Mt. Gox.

    • The worst part? They forgot to hold onto a bunch of coins for themselves. Man, those grapes must be sour.
    • "We regret that a religion has formed around our piece of satirical performance art."

    • by leonbev ( 111395 )

      The creator of Dogecoin also infamously sold his millions of coins he had back when they were worth fractions of a penny to buy a used Honda Civic.

      When I read those angry rants from him on Twitter, all I hear is the bitter words of a man who lost out on a fortune because he sold early.

      I'm sure that he won't be the last person to do that with crypto.

  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:58AM (#61596547)

    What else did you plan to accomplish with a currency that is designed to be devoid of any governmental oversight?

    • What else did you plan to accomplish with a currency that is designed to be devoid of any governmental oversight?

      Well, have a way for you and I to have a currency which can't be tracked by a hostile government and isn't subject to debasement and inflation.

      I'm not sure cryptos actually achieve those noble goals. And you certainly don't see headlines about people using crypto to actually buy stuff. All the news is about speculation and trading cryptocurrency purely for the sake of trading it.

      This strikes me as similar to the stock market. Stocks have a simple, fundamental purpose: to let people easily invest in companie

  • by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:37AM (#61596611)
    It should be obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes that the price of bitcoin & other crypto currencies is heavily manipulated. The price soars and crashes by double digits almost on a weekly basis so anyone with advance knowledge of those shifts, or instigating them would be making hundreds of millions from the idiot saps "investing" in it.

    I expect prominent crypto promoters have their own and soft & hard ways to affect market shifts - tweets, shills / bots, compliant exchanges, journalists, even countries. And with so little regulation or oversight the people getting stiffed are the credulous idiots who "invest" in these magic beans.

    • I expect prominent crypto promoters have their own and soft & hard ways to affect market shifts...

      Musk does this on a weekly basis, and he's not even subtle about it anymore.

      That crypto kids will blindly throw money whenever Musk tweets a doge or laser eyes is already worrisome enough, but remember, Tesla keeps a sizable amount of cash reserves in Bitcoin. I really wonder why he hasn't been investigated on that end just yet.

      • by DrXym ( 126579 )
        Exactly and the sad part is people fall for it.
      • by Megane ( 129182 )

        Tesla keeps a sizable amount of cash reserves in Bitcoin.

        Except they hold it, with money that needed to be invested anyhow. The idiots are buying with money they can't afford to lose, and expecting it to go up in a short period of time.

    • It should be obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes that the price of bitcoin & other crypto currencies is heavily manipulated

      Every market is manipulated in one way or another. Because every market has actors with different privileges. As a small-fish retail trader you are at the bottom of the food chain, since there are people that can trade faster than you, with access to more and better information and better tools. It's not an even playing field. This is why most retail trading accounts lose money. You should never be a trader unless you're a professional. If you're not a professional trader, you're a gambler.

      Instead, you shou

      • Every market is manipulated in one way or another.

        There's a difference between every market is manipulated, and every market is unregulated and allows for unrestricted manipulation.

        Also why is it that every time I see that summary first line of a post saying some promotional dishonest garbage for crypto it ends up coming from you? Which coin are you heavily invested in causing you to promote it so much through dishonest bullshit?

        • There's a difference between every market is manipulated, and every market is unregulated and allows for unrestricted manipulation.

          True. Just keep in mind that regulations don't only exist just to "protect" small investors. That's the narrative, of course. But, there are reasons why the rich are always getting richer and everyone else poorer.

          Also why is it that every time I see that summary first line of a post saying some promotional dishonest garbage for crypto it ends up coming from you? Which coin are you heavily invested in causing you to promote it so much through dishonest bullshit?

          What about my post is dishonest, promotional garbage?

          I like responding to Crypto related topics because for many years I was like most people here on Slashdot, equating Crypto to Bitcoin and dismissing it as a useless technical experiment at best, a scam at worst. And now that I put in the effort to understand it, realize that Crypto is much more than just Bitcoin, and what you can actually do with it, I finally see the potential. I'm dumbfounded and angry at my own naivity, my ignorance and my lack of curiosity for so many years.

          These days I'm a big fan of Cardano (research it!) and I just believe in the mission and the promise it brings. I hope that my posts will be able to gently nudge a few people away from the preconceived notions of crypto, and more towards curiosity. Is there something wrong with that?

    • It should be obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes that the price of bitcoin & other crypto currencies is heavily manipulated. The price soars and crashes by double digits almost on a weekly basis so anyone with advance knowledge of those shifts, or instigating them would be making hundreds of millions from the idiot saps "investing" in it.

      I expect prominent crypto promoters have their own and soft & hard ways to affect market shifts - tweets, shills / bots, compliant exchanges, journalists, even countries. And with so little regulation or oversight the people getting stiffed are the credulous idiots who "invest" in these magic beans.

      And it should have been obvious years ago.

    • Just one wallet pumping dogeâ¦. https://imgur.com/gallery/5IPc... [imgur.com]
    • An acquaintance of mine asked me what kind of computer components were required to make money off Bitcoin. I told him to forget a computer and invent a time machine instead to go back and buy Bitcoin when it was cheap.
  • I created a fully functioning and useful piece of software as a joke. Everyone should know it's a joke because the icon for it is something silly. Now I'm mad that people are using the fully functional software because everyone should have known it was just a joke.

    Dogecoin functions as a cryptocurrency should, and there are people who want to use crypto for investment and transfer of money. Thus all that it requires to be popular is for word of it to get out. The very fact it was a "meme" contributed to

    • I am a very sarcastic person. I love to propose and play with really stupid ideas to see how far they can really go. Finding merits in stupid ideas is a good tool for me to apply towards better and smart ones.

      However one of the lessons I have learned, was not to discuses my investigation into these stupid ideas, because undoubtedly someone will take the idea and only look at my good points for it (as the bad points should be obvious) and run with it. Often causing the stupid idea to be implemented. After

    • DogeCoin
      Dog-E-Coin
      Dodg-E-Coin
      Dodgy Coine
      Dodgy:: Adj : dishonest or unreliable, of potentially dangerous low quality.
  • I can't wait to see those crypto-bros now. They'll still go at it (a sucker is born every day.)

    I still believe in the premise of crypto as a technology, yet this is on point. Want it or not, there will be a need for centralization to avoid the things outlined by these dudes.

    But that's the thing: people attracted to crypto behave like risk addicts, with a mix of pretentious anarchist-slash-libertarian wannabe behavior. Everybody things they'll be like Mal from Firefly or Darryl when anarchy comes, but mo

  • They seemed to have created DOGECOIN as a parody on cryptocurrencies. These recent comments just complete the cycle.
  • by gnasher719 ( 869701 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @08:39AM (#61597015)
    All the crypto currencies are in the end just a scam. A coin is supposed to be worth $x, but $x is just what the last person buying one paid. There is no account where actual money is. And because all the various frauds going on, the amount of money paid in by honest people is much less than the amount of money paid out to honest people. ("Honest" includes honest drug dealers, contract killers etc. whose crimes are not about crypto currencies).

    Fortunately, there is a very easy and perfect way to protect yourself: Don't play.
    • A coin is supposed to be worth $x, but $x is just what the last person buying one paid.

      Are you sure? From what I understand about the origins of Bitcoin, there was absolutely no intent to peg Bitcoin to the Dollar, Euro, gold, or any other standard. This was considered a feature, not a bug, because those other currencies could inflate and Bitcoin, through it's algorithmic supply control, would be less likely to inflate.

      A more accurate statement might be "A coin is supposed to be worth a mid-range 4-door sedan", or whatever it settles out to be once the currency becomes mainstream and demand s

  • A currency's money supply has to be managed for it to stay useful as a medium of exchange. As soon as cryptos succeeded in limiting money supply, they stopped being currencies and began to be treated as storehouses of value. That's when the mustache-twirling hoarders that Palmer decries took over.

    Meanwhile, the anonymity of cryptos appealed to money launderers, kidnappers, tax evaders, and purveyors of every kind of illicit goods - the only remaining users who treat it as currency because their use case can

  • by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @09:08AM (#61597099)

    Bitcoin is cheap: It's worthless as a currency!
    Bitcoin is expensive: It's a bubble!
    Bitcoin prices are volatile: It's useless as a currency, it's too volatile!
    Bitcoin prices are stable: It's dead! Nobody is buying!

    Also, it's a scam, it's a plot by the CIA, it's a plot by Russia, it's bad for the environment, it's a socialist plot, it's a capitalist plot, it's an anarchist plot, it's only used for laundering drug money, it's only used by hedge funds....

    Sounds awesome. I'm in!

    • It's a floor wax! It's a dessert topping!
      • by JBMcB ( 73720 )

        Mad at myself that I didn't think of it first. "This is delicious on ice cream, and just look that shine!"

    • by Coryoth ( 254751 )

      Bitcoin is cheap: It's worthless as a currency!
      Bitcoin is expensive: It's a bubble!
      Bitcoin prices are volatile: It's useless as a currency, it's too volatile!
      Bitcoin prices are stable: It's dead! Nobody is buying!

      The first mistake is evaluating bitcoin by its "price". Assuming the key is that it is a currency the real question is the volume of actual transactions going on in bitcoin.

      What is the amount of good purchased with bitcoin? It certainly isn't huge. How about remittances? Money transfer was one of the big use cases. It turns out that, despite a lot of hype and years to make a difference, bitcoin in particular and crypto-currencies in general, have made practically no dent in the remittances market. How about

  • by MNNorske ( 2651341 ) on Monday July 19, 2021 @10:55AM (#61597605)
    When we fail to learn from history we repeat it. The trading in crypto currencies reminds me so much of this: Tulip Mania [wikipedia.org]. These trends repeat themselves throughout history over and over again. A few people start making money doing something then more people rush into the market to try and make money. The early entrants into the market make large returns. The later entrants into the market lose their investment because the value of the thing has diminished.

    I'm not a fan of crypto currencies because it seems like it's the latest case of tulip mania. The people who got into crypto early on or ran early mining rigs when the computational complexity was low and the number of miners were few are going to yield high returns because they have the item that everyone else is clamoring to purchase. Later entrants to the market are just transferring their fiat currencies into crypto with the hope that they can in turn sell their crypto to someone else for a larger return. But, people who are trying to get rich quick off of this will eventually dump it to move on to the next thing and when they dump it the value will crash.

    If people were simply using this as a different form of money then maybe it'd be ok. But, from an external viewpoint it is following the same pattern. In the 80's you had junk bonds (Savings and Loan Crises) that everyone was investing in which eventually crashed. In the 90's everyone was rushing to buy tech stocks and Beanie Babies. Tech stocks crashed, and people realized they were dumping money into small stuffed animals that held no intrinsic value on their own. In the early 2000's everyone was rushing to buy property because housing prices were spiking faster than inflation and other people were rushing to buy mortgage backed securities because they seemed to have a high rate of return. Well people defaulted on their loans, property prices crashed, and the mortgage backed securities tanked because they were tied to the properties.

    You have tons of suburban moms who have been racing around selling each other essential oils, yoga pants, or vacation packages in pyramid market schemes. The early entrants to the market again make the money, while they late entrants are just dumping their money and efforts into the multi-level marketing schemes to make those early entrants money.

    People just don't seem to learn...
  • by bwt ( 68845 )

    The guys thesis is: "cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity."

    It used to be that "liberal" and left-wing were synonyms, but no longer. Cryptocurrency is only right-wing in the sense that it believes that the government monopoly on the medium of exchange has been used in a corrupt and/or grossly incompetent way. Cr

  • Genuine question - did they end up profiting from the venture?

    There's no easy way of knowing and rumours fly about that they made nothing from it or made shed loads of cash.

    It's a tough moral question - if they both enriched themselves to a considerable degree, then, well, it's kinda hard to take their dismissal of cryptocurrencies at face value.

    If neither profited, then fair game.

    The sad thing is, the actual potential benefits of the technology or tech like it, are overlooked due to the sea of scum that su

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