T-Mobile Stirs 'Grave Concerns' at DOJ on Bid To End Old Network (bloomberg.com) 60
Antitrust officials at the U.S. Justice Department said they have "grave concerns" about plans by T-Mobile US to shut down the wireless network used by millions of Boost Mobile customers. From a report: The department's worries were disclosed Monday in a regulatory filing by Dish Network, which bought Boost as part of an antitrust settlement approved by the Justice Department that cleared the way for T-Mobile's takeover of Sprint last year. T-Mobile operates the 3G network known as CDMA that's used by Boost.
"The Division is left with grave concerns about the potential for a nationwide CDMA shutdown to leave a substantial proportion of Boost's customers without service," the acting head of the department's antitrust division, Richard Powers, wrote to Dish and T-Mobile in a July 9 letter. The dispute over the network, which T-Mobile plans to decommission on Jan. 1, is threatening the elaborate antitrust deal brokered by the Trump administration's Justice Department, which allowed T-Mobile to buy Sprint even though the deal consolidated the mobile phone market to three national players. The Justice Department had long said four players were needed to ensure the market is competitive.
"The Division is left with grave concerns about the potential for a nationwide CDMA shutdown to leave a substantial proportion of Boost's customers without service," the acting head of the department's antitrust division, Richard Powers, wrote to Dish and T-Mobile in a July 9 letter. The dispute over the network, which T-Mobile plans to decommission on Jan. 1, is threatening the elaborate antitrust deal brokered by the Trump administration's Justice Department, which allowed T-Mobile to buy Sprint even though the deal consolidated the mobile phone market to three national players. The Justice Department had long said four players were needed to ensure the market is competitive.
Weird phrasing (Score:3)
"T-Mobile operates the 3G network known as CDMA that's used by Boost" -- not exactly right. CDMA is a protocol, not the name of a network.
T-Mobile operates a CDMA-based network that is used by Boost" would be more accurate.
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I thought CDMA was one of two 2G techs, the other being TDMA?
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Nope, CDMA2000 is a 3G standard.
cdmaOne (Qualcomm's marketing name for IS-95) is the 2G technology you're thinking of.
Re:Weird phrasing (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought CDMA was one of two 2G techs, the other being TDMA?
There are not two, but three ( '3' ) 2G techs:
GSM (a.k.a GSM), IS-136 (a.k.a TDMA), and IS-95 (a.k.a. CDMA).
Then, when 3G cometh, we also had three technologies:
WCDMA (a.k.a 3G-GSM), TD-SCDMA (a.k.a. German-Chinese 3G), and CDMA-EVDO (a.k.a. 3G-CDMA)
Some writers, like the one here, get confused and drop the EVDO part from the name.
Since all CDMA handsets are more or less compatible, the CDMA that Boost uses is probably EVDO, but it will happily will support IS-95, IS-2000 and 1xRTT as well.
On a final not, for 4G there are 2 standards LTE (a.k.a LTE) and IEEE802.16n (a.k.a Wimax)
For 5G there is only one standard world-wide, aptly named "5G".
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5G may split into Chinese and non-Chinese 5G as Huawei is being shutout of Western markets and they hold most of the 5G patents. If Huawei retaliates by not allowing western companies to use their patents , the west will have to come up with a differnt protocol not using Huawei patents.
Nope, Huawei needs the FRAND money from the patents to survive said sanctions.
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CDMA is also 2G, and later 3G (to the guy below).
Re-wording (Score:3, Insightful)
Summary has misleading wording, this phrase:
which allowed T-Mobile to buy Sprint even though the deal consolidated the mobile phone market to three national players
Should really be
which allowed T-Mobile to buy Sprint so that the mobile phone market could have three viable national players instead of two.
Who out there thanks T-Mobile or Sprint by their own were going to last against both AT&T / Verizon with massive 5G infrastructure upgrades to be done?
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You know somebody could have bought Sprint (Score:2)
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Lovely analysis; "your superlatives are less/more superlative than I would prefer, therefore you're wrong."
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There are more than two now, if you don't add subjective limiting clauses like "major" to the statement.
Do you really not even understand that much of the discourse on these types of subjects?
What is a "national... player?" Nobody has 100% coverage.
And then you start in with the handwaving about your imagined future of what "would have" happened. They wouldn't have survived, because you didn't respect them? Something-something 5G? LOL
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I tend to agree with this model of competition in the market, but the current issue seems to stem from the forced sale of boost to another (fourth) competitor. I do question the rationale that boost could have a real impact on the cellular market by exclusively reselling sprint/nextel services which are also still managed by tmobile.
Did the DoJ really think that an MVNO was an effective limit on market monopolization?
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So you adopt the view that T-Mobile's low band 5G isn't competitive? Millimeter 5G is the only valid future?
Sure. Watch and learn, T-Mobile is in position to serve lower-density markets with useful 5G bandwidth, while AT&T/Verizon are planting closely spaced towers in urban markets to cling to that demographic.
TMO is more dangerous to both the regional/small operators, and the video providers. We'll see how it plays out, but I've had TMO service for 15 years, and most of that time their demise has been
Hypocrisy (Score:3)
“If Dish was really concerned for customers, they would simply take real action and get their customers new phones on time, before the network upgrade happens, just as T-Mobile is doing for affected Sprint customers. It’s that simple.”
Yeah, just like T-mobile is doing. Obsoleting my still perfectly good phone which I paid a wad of money on, and giving me the choice of either spending another wad of money on a decent phone, or getting a crappy one for free. Yeah.
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What CDMA-only phone do you have? Verizon, which operated the nation's largest CDMA network, stopped supporting CDMA-only phones at the end of 2019. They're also turning their whole CDMA network off in 2022. LTE phones have been available for more than a decade, so there has been plenty of time to find an alternative.
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It is NOT a CDMA-only phone. It's a 4G phone, the LG V20. Yet T-mobile will not allow it to function on its network past Jan 1st of next year. They have confirmed that to me repeatedly.
Re: Hypocrisy (Score:2)
Oh... shit... you just ruined my day. I have an AT&T V20 and was planning to use T-mobile as my lifeboat if AT&T gave me shit over my phone running a rooted-stock ROM.
Goddamn it, as if it's not bad enough that all 3 networks are forcing us to get new phones, all presently-available new phones fucking SUCK... low-res 1080 displays, no removable batteries, glass backs, and more. I honestly can't think of a single current phone that I wouldn't hate.
I'm seriously considering trying to buy a tiny flip ph
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You can try to get Google Fi, which according to their site is compatible with LG V20: https://fi.google.com/compatib... [google.com]
I switched to Fi a long time ago and will never go back to the standard carriers. But I usually get Google phones for the network switching (WiFi vs cellular).
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Thank you. I will look into Fi, as it seems a reasonable option. It will be more expensive per month than what I pay now (removing the phone from my family plan with Tmobile only saves me $10/month, and a comparable plan from Fi is $70/month).
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Thanks. In that case it will also lose compatibility with my phone soon, and would not be a viable option indeed.
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Sprint/Boost sold and recommended quite a few phones that were LTE in data, but 3G only for voice/text, because Sprint never really got VoLTE reliable enough to switch (and never will, everything is going to the T-Mobile VoLTE network). Saved a few bucks not having VoLTE as an option, I guess. Sprint (and Verizon?) iPhone 5s were in that generation, but Boost was selling cheaper hybrid devices like that through 2018.
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Precisely. My phone is LTE for data, but not VoLTE. And it's a model that Sprint was selling 3 years ago, not 10 years ago. It cost a pretty penny and still works perfectly fine - but only for the next 4.5 months.
VoIP over LTE possible? (Score:2)
Would it be possible to continue to use the LG V20 on T-Mobile's data network and port your voice number to a VoIP carrier?
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The system monitors the phone ID and it flags any that are not VOLTE, I got booted off AT&T for putting my sim into an old 4gLTE non-VOLTE phone the other day, it was a hassle to fix. And before you say "but this is about T-Mobile", all carriers are aggressively pushing everything onto 4g VOLTE or 5G.
Even if a court forces them to keep letting Boost do it, they aren't going to let others do it
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Tablets are not VoLTE. Nor are mobile hotspot devices. What criterion is T-Mobile using to block phones from its network while not excluding tablets or dedicated mobile hotspot devices from its network?
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Would it be possible to continue to use the LG V20 on T-Mobile's data network and port your voice number to a VoIP carrier?
No. T-mobile will kick my phone off its network completely, even though theoretically it would still be able to function as a LTE data-only device. They will not allow that.
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Please read above. It's a 4G phone that Sprint was selling as recently as 3 years ago, and has specs close to (and better screen and cameras) the current flagship phones.
Re: Hypocrisy (Score:2)
Exactly. It's IMPOSSIBLE to find a new Android phone with 2560x1440 display, microSD, removable battery, headphone jack, IrBlaster, rear fingerprint sensor, and non-glass back. Every goddamn phone you can buy today that satisfies the new proprietary-VoLTE requirements forces you to give up most or all of those features.
Take 400+ HiDPI displays. Just TRY to find a current phone that has one & doesn't ruin the phone in some major way... like Samsung's awful "waterfall" displays that are IMPOSSIBLE to prot
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Thank you for praising the V20 better than I could. It's an awesome phone.
One feature that you didn't mention, and which no other phone before or after it has, is the second display. I find that very useful for finding out quickly information such as time, whether it rains outside or not etc. without having to turn on the main display - which saves a lot of battery charge.
I will probably end up taking one of the crappy free phones from Tmobile to use for voice only, and continue to use the V20 for everythin
Dish is dragging its feet (Score:5, Insightful)
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Are phones the only things that rely on CDMA?
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No, many cars with On-star and commercial fleet management systems will also have problems when the CDMA / 3G systems start to shut down.
https://www.automotive-fleet.com/332399/keeping-vehicles-connected-after-verizons-3g-shutdown [automotive-fleet.com]
This is similar to the problem a few years ago when the old analog cell systems shut down and many On-star systems had to be replaced with newer hardware. It's possible some older home security systems with cell network backup notifications might not work after the
This is getting Stupidier by the minute! (Score:5, Insightful)
There are at least. four legal documents involved here:
1.) The legal document between T-Mobile and Dish stating the earliest cut of date for the CDMA network.
2.) The legal document between T-Mobile and the FCC stating the earliest cut of date for the CDMA network, which is part of the agreement that allowed the FCC to rubber-stamp the merger.
3.) The legal document between T-Mobile and the FTC stating the earliest cut of date for the CDMA network, which is part of the agreement that allowed the FTC to rubber-stamp the merger.
4.) The legal document between T-Mobile and the DOJ stating the earliest cut of date for the CDMA network, which is part of the agreement that allowed the DOJ to rubber-stamp the merger.
The Shutdown of the CDMA network must be the latter of all four.
If the lawyers of T-Mobie + Sprint were so cunning that they got a Jan 1, 2022 date past not one, not two, not three, but four independent parties, they deserve their triumph.
And if the combined lawyers of Dish (a private entity), the FCC, the FTC and the DOJ (this last one comprised mostly of lawyers, for crying out loud!) were so mediocre that they all allowed a too early date for the CDMA shutdown, then shame on them all.
And sorry for Boost's CDMA customers.
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Carriers should be on the hook for the landfill and recycle fees for these phones they're killing.
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Why not both?
Basically I don't want to be on the hook for any additional costs or responsibility.
Some of that covered already (Score:1)
Carriers should be on the hook for the landfill and recycle fees for these phones they're killing.
Apple already offers free recycling for all phones so homeport of that is covered already.
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To early? How long are we gonna us 3g tech? Don't get me wrong, low data rate technology definitely has it's place. Voice and text is all you really need in a phone. Anything else is just extra. This is becoming less true though, as more and more places really push for you to have a smart phone. You'll end up missing out on stuff.
The biggest loss of the 3g network is really for IoT devices that you only need a little bit of data for anyway. Maybe you want to build a pi weather monitor and reports it data in
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To early? How long are we gonna us 3g tech? Don't get me wrong, low data rate technology definitely has it's place. Voice and text is all you really need in a phone. Anything else is just extra. This is becoming less true though, as more and more places really push for you to have a smart phone. You'll end up missing out on stuff.
The biggest loss of the 3g network is really for IoT devices that you only need a little bit of data for anyway. Maybe you want to build a pi weather monitor and reports it data in a certain way. You can get data plans for as low as $5 a month, last I check. It wasn't much and it wasn't fast but for many types of projects that just need a simple way to report, this was nice.
You don't always have access to wifi but the cellular networks are often available.
5G has something for you. Low Bandwidth, low power, low latency data connections.
5G has the lowest bit/watt of any G. And the features that allow you to have low BW, low PWR, low RTT connections are integral to to the protocol, not bolted on like in 2G, 3G or 4G. those were tought specifically for the use case you describe: Scientific/Industrial/commercial-IoT, as opposed to consumer IoT.
Re: This is getting Stupidier by the minute! (Score:2)
For voice calls, circuit-switched 3G (HSPA) and 2G CDMA2000 was a thousand times more reliable than VoLTE.
With Sprint in the early 2000s and HSPA with AT&T and T-Mobile after ~2012, I almost NEVER had dropped calls, and only rarely had a call anywhere even slightly urban or suburban break up. With fucking VoLTE on AT&T, I can't even walk around inside my house without risking the call getting dropped, and a voice call while driving is almost GUARANTEED to drop within 5-10 minutes. Wi-fi calling slig
4 is the minimum? (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally I'd have said that 5 major player was the bare minimum to ensure any competition at all, and more than 6 in each market would be highly preferable. Fewer than 6 in a market should indicate that it's time for stronger government regulation, and perhaps consolidation into a public utility. Either that or time to break up the larger players. (Note the plural.)
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Good luck with that. Banks today are bigger than they were before the 2008 Great Recession and they were already considered "too big to fail" at that time. Plus all the regulations reimposed, like making sure banks can't gamble with the money in your checking/savings accounts trusting that the FDIC will make you whole if they lose it, are gone... again.
While I completely agree there needs to be more competition, when you look at all the different industries where presidential administrations from both parti
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I think we are more concerned with the good times and not being fucked by the phone carriers. With fewer and fewer choices, you will get worse prices because they can. Maybe a good time buy stock in those companies and play the long game.
Hopefully Musk can eventually blanket the entire US with Internet access. Then, we could just pick any device that had wifi that also supported our needs. Use voip and your favorite private messaging apps and you are good to go.
It could happen one day. I'm hopeful.
For reference (Score:4, Interesting)
Verizon is shutting down their 3G network in Dec 2022 [verizon.com]
T-Mobile is shutting down their 3G network in Dec 2022 [tmonews.com]
T-Mobile is (planning to) shut down Sprint's 3G network in Jan 2022.
So even if this anti-trust lawsuit succeeded, it would only buy users on Boost an extra month to 11 months. 3G technology is outdated now*, and the spectrum is better off being repurposed for newer services. And given how long anti-trust actions take, it's going to be irrelevant by the time it's resolved. At best, people who used to be on Boost will get a coupon for $25 off a new phone with T-Mobile.
This was a point I brought up way back when the merger was first being proposed (I am/was on Sprint BTW). Sprint was the primary carrier used by discount MVNOs like Boost [wikipedia.org]. That was a large part of the reason why they always finished last in bandwidth tests - their 3G/4G tower bandwidth was being shared with dozens of MVNOs. And a merger would force those MVNOs onto more expensive carrier networks. If the Justice Dept wanted T-Mobile to keep Sprint's 3G service around longer to protect these MVNOs, then they should have insisted on making that a condition of the merger.
Instead, I think what we need is for the FCC to dedicate some spectrum to low-bandwidth data communications. So devices like car theft-deterrent systems can continue to update their locations every few minutes, without fear of the hardware becoming obsolete and needing to be upgraded. Then the cellular carriers or whoever else can compete to provide that service, orthogonal to phone and phone data services.
* (And for anyone who still thinks good riddance to CDMA, CDMA won the GSM vs CDMA war. It was so vastly superior for data transmission than GSM's TDMA, that within a year GSM threw in the towel, licensed CDMA, and incorporated it into the GSM standard [wikipedia.org]. That was why you could talk and use data at the same time on GSM phones - they had a TDMA radio for voice, and a wideband CDMA radio for data, whereas CDMA phones only had a single radio for both. The OFDMA used in 4G LTE was possible because of the successful proof of concept that CDMA provided - everyone broadcasts at the same time, but using orthogonal codes (CDMA) or frequencies (OFDMA). Compared to TDMA where everyone takes turns talking, even if they have nothing to say.)
Good riddance to CDMA vs. CDMA2000 (Score:2)
And for anyone who still thinks good riddance to CDMA, CDMA won the GSM vs CDMA war.
Then let's change it to what I imagine people were really thinking:
1. Good riddance to carriers' ability to block transferring your service to another handset. Unlike most CDMA2000 phones sold in the USA during the CDMA2000 and EV-DO eras, all GSM, UMTS, and LTE phones support a SIM.
2. Good riddance to Qualcomm BREW OS and its console-like lack of sideloading and deliberately feudalist app approval process. CDMA2000 phones were more likely to run BREW, compared to GSM phones that ran Java ME.
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And for anyone who still thinks good riddance to CDMA, CDMA won the GSM vs CDMA war.
Then let's change it to what I imagine people were really thinking:
1. Good riddance to carriers' ability to block transferring your service to another handset. Unlike most CDMA2000 phones sold in the USA during the CDMA2000 and EV-DO eras, all GSM, UMTS, and LTE phones support a SIM.
2. Good riddance to Qualcomm BREW OS and its console-like lack of sideloading and deliberately feudalist app approval process. CDMA2000 phones were more likely to run BREW, compared to GSM phones that ran Java ME.
Also, good ridance of the Punny 1,25Mhz channels used by EVDO, as opossed to the Hefty 5Mhz channels used by UMTS/WCDMA.
Re: Good riddance to CDMA vs. CDMA2000 (Score:2)
The sad irony is, AT&T, Verizon, and (now) T-mobile have weaponized mutually-incompatible VoLTE profiles, and come 2022, will put us in a situation that's almost as proprietary & dystopian as American CDMA2000 networks were 10 years ago.
Seriously. We spent a decade fighting for interoperable unlocked phones in the US, mostly achieved it circa 2016, and are now having it all taken away from us again while the USELESS FCC sits with its thumb in its ass and allows the networks to do it to us.
Take AT
Block C open access per 47 CFR 27.16 (Score:2)
I don't know about AT&T, but I thought Verizon agreed not to suspend service to unlocked handsets under the block C open access rule (47 CFR 27.16 [cornell.edu]) when Verizon first leased the 700 MHz band in 2008. Perhaps if enough affected customers file an arbitration claim against carriers, this might convince the carriers to waive the binding arbitration provision, as Amazon did in June [slashdot.org].
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From what I've read, Verizon has been slowly tightening the vise around the 700MHz block C open access rule. Like, they won't give you a hard time about using 700MHz LTE data on a tablet or laptop WLAN card (because that would be an open and shut blatant violation of the agreement), but that lately, more and more reports have emerged on XDA about people who've run into increasingly aggressive resistance from Verizon employees when it comes to "phones"... especially phones with bootloaders that aren't locked
Why is Dish complaining? (Score:2)
The department's worries were disclosed Monday in a regulatory filing by Dish Network, which bought Boost as part of an antitrust settlement approved by the Justice Department that cleared the way for T-Mobile's takeover of Sprint last year.
Dish said they're switching to AT&T [slashdot.org] so why is this still an issue?