Congress Decimates 911's Digital Upgrade (axios.com) 154
Public safety officials fear the nation's 911 centers will
continue to languish in the analog era
, after Democrats slashed proposed funding for a digital makeover in their social spending bill. From a report: The potentially life-saving ability for people to send texts, pictures or videos to 911 centers, and for centers to seamlessly share data with each other, remains out of reach for many of the country's 6,000 centers. The House Energy & Commerce Committee advanced a proposal that would have spent $10 billion on next-generation 911 centers in September, but that funding was reduced to $470 million for deployment in the final House version of the Build Back Better Act.
A cost report to Congress on next-generation 911 from 2018 estimated it would take about $12 billion to implement the networks nationwide, though advocates say $15 billion might be needed. "To say I'm disappointed is to put it mildly," Brian Fontes, CEO of NENA: The 911 Association, told Axios. "It's extraordinarily unfortunate." Next-generation 911 would allow centers to accept multimedia from those in need and let centers share data among themselves easily to ensure the best response.
A cost report to Congress on next-generation 911 from 2018 estimated it would take about $12 billion to implement the networks nationwide, though advocates say $15 billion might be needed. "To say I'm disappointed is to put it mildly," Brian Fontes, CEO of NENA: The 911 Association, told Axios. "It's extraordinarily unfortunate." Next-generation 911 would allow centers to accept multimedia from those in need and let centers share data among themselves easily to ensure the best response.
And how is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
It would probably be a 911 version of the SLS with delays and cost overruns.
Nothing is stopping states from upgrading their systems or working with other states on interoperability.
Not everything is a federal responsibility.
Re:And how is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everything is a federal responsibility.
Interstate coordination is usually a good candidate for federal responsibility in some capacity. Stuff like telephone networks, airwaves, criminal records, finance, currency, etc.
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This is an IT project. How many large federal IT projects have they been successful at, on time, on spec and on budget?
In a perfect world the US government would be the best coordinator, if they were competent. Unfortunately they're not.
Re:And how is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've yet to see that in any private company either. If anything they're worse- there's just an utter lack of transparency and accountability in the private world. That's not a reason to not do it, its a reason to be realistic about what it will actually cost, and assume there will be overruns and base your cost/benefit analysis on that.
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counter example: https://www.disa.mil/en [disa.mil]
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How many large federal IT projects have they been successful at, on time, on spec and on budget?
Plenty. But you'll need to find them through FOIA requests because doing something and it working doesn't make for a very good news headline.
You only hear about failures.
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There does not need to be coordination. All of the new functionality is leveraging existing standards. They call up a supplier of 911 software and buy the software that support SMS etc. The one I used to work for will even provide specialists to help with the install.
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But not emergency response. Emergency response is pretty logically almost entirely a LOCAL matter.
Not everything can be rationalized to be Federal responsibility.
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Like...GPS? Really the thing to worry about is VoIP which doesn't even have the technical leverage of GPS or cell towers. And then there's the unreliability of ISP provided phone modems with no battery backup.
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As in, the phone transmitting its GPS location to the 911 call center. Surprisingly that is not currently implemented.
Well it's not universally implemented, but it is available - for free in some cases. iPhones and Android phones include hooks in their call processing firmware to invoke approved third party applications which can transmit your location (inc GPS, bluetooth low energy, or whatever the phone's location services can provide) "over the top" via a TCP connection to a clearinghouse. At least one vendor (I won't name them as I'm not seeking to advertise anything) provides this services to PSAPs for free, but th
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It would probably be a 911 version of the SLS with delays and cost overruns.
Or the NextGen upgrade to FAA systems that's been going on for ...
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You do realize this will lead to many different methods that every telecommunications provider will have to support, right?
I mean, let's say Washington uses Standard A, Oregon uses Standard B. Now ever cellphone provider needs support for both standards, because their cellphones may trav
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Nothing is stopping states from upgrading their systems or working with other states on interoperability.
Not everything is a federal responsibility.
I see you've never been on a committee before. 2 people can agree on interoperability. 3 people need a mediator to agree. 50 people need a fucking miracle.
10 Billion? (Score:2)
They need $10-$15 Billion??? Dollars for this...
I can think of many other better ways to use that money. Maybe just give it to the people and they will be more happy and won't need to fight and call 911.
Or just put it all into science, it will save more lives than 911.
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When a driver has a blowout on a country road and doesn't know exactly where he is, how is that caused by fighting?
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They need $10-$15 Billion??? Dollars for this... I can think of many other better ways to use that money. Maybe just give it to the people and they will be more happy and won't need to fight and call 911.
Or just put it all into science, it will save more lives than 911.
It seems ridiculous that it should cost that much to implement technology available with any cellphone. What are they spending it all on anyway?
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Committees.
Committees to plan committees.
Committees to oversee Committees that plan committiees
Commitees to plan Commitees that oversee Committees that plan Commitees.
Committees that create procedures to regulate Committees that plan Committees that oversee Committees that plan Commitees.
Committees that plan Commitees hat create procedures to regulate Committees that plan Committees that oversee Committees that plan Commitees. etc...
Bureacracy can be endlessly inventive when it comes to blowing budgets. Th
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It seems ridiculous that it should cost that much to implement technology available with any cellphone. What are they spending it all on anyway?
New IP networks, that need to be secure. And emergency incident tracking that involves hideously complex distributed systems design, interoperable across many vendors. The work is far along from a standards process. And many vendors are well along in implementing this technology. But getting it deployed will require massive upgrade of out-of-date call handling and incident tracking technology at PSAPs, as well as sheriffs offices, police agencies, etc., to get full interoperability. Believe me, this i
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And don't forget that it's a captive market
Re: 10 Billion? (Score:2)
Who needs to text pics to them anyway? (Score:2)
As soon as they "go digital" and allow all that stuff, they're going to get pranked with untraceable dick pics and everything else....
People are already used to the idea that you CALL 911 and speak to an operator. In a crisis, I want to have that voice confirmation that someone on the line is helping me ... not some SMS text that you're not sure will deliver properly. (I can't even text my g/f reliably without random responses coming back with "unable to deliver" warnings on them and prompts to tap to retr
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You honestly don't see the benefit of being able to rick-roll 911?
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The idea is that you could do something like text when you can't freely speak for fear of being overheard, or that you could send a picture of a vehicle or person so the cops know who they're looking for.
It's not bad for the deaf, either. TDD exists but it's old as hell and everyone has SMS now.
A few good uses. A ton of bad uses. (Score:2)
You point out a few good uses. However, as above post points out, they will be overwhelmed with spam, noise, unreliable information, unactionable texts, unreadable pictures, etc that will overtax their already limited system. Even the voice 911 call system has a ton of non-emergency calls. Why break something that is working well?
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First off, the system would allow all data to be traced; spam isn’t hard to address if it is impacting people with guns.
Right now, some 911 operators have cell phones that they can have digital content sent to which is a technical nightmare— not easily integrated into records documents. The general idea is to augment available interfaces and modernize the system which I support.
The only problem I have with this is that the feds should be responsible for defining standards, creating model code a
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They already "went digital" years ago. This is just adding new functionality.
Defunding Critical Infrastructure (Score:2)
I always wondered why we have not been able to send texts or pictures and videos to emergency services that answer calls at 911 here in America. It seems like a very obvious technology. Should have been implemented decades ago and should be standard.
I remember reading articles and learning in school of the problems of having the separate emergency services for firefighters and ambulances back in the 1800s and early 1900s here in America and the terrible service and the problems that were akin to racketeeri
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In that wall of text did you ask if other countries emergency services do something like that?
can the phone system allow free 911 texting? data? (Score:2)
can the cell phone system allow free 911 texting? data?
Even with no sim can the cell phone system let you send pictures or videos to 911?
Postpaid with an dead beat account?
Prepayed with no credit
Roaming with no speed cap?
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Yes. About the most simple thing to do.
Maybe it's best--the Cylons won't hack it : ) (Score:2)
after Democrats slashed proposed funding (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yeah, if Republicans want to fund this too, they should speak up about the bill being trimmed back too far!
Democrats would be happy to pass a bigger bill.
Is "old" always bad? (Score:2)
The first is cost. Second, forever playing pricey catch-up with emerging protocols. Third, can you imagine the wasteful expense of chasing down every butt-text and prank? Fourth, I'm sure hackers will show up at one point or another--this might actually cost lives...and this will also be a perpetual cat-and-mouse game. Fifth, do you think the cellular carriers are going to
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Here's the upside. You are on a voice call to 112/911 for a trauma. The operator currently has to ask you to verbally describe the wounds in order to assess which, if any, is life threatening. People are notoriously bad at this, often because they are directly involved and shocked. A photo or short video of each major injury could be useful in prioritising the response and also guiding a first-aid response. A continuous stream of someone involved in the trauma could be used to determine if a response n
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Your prank deterrence mechanism sou
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And don't forget how awesome SWATing would be with some deepfakes!
Is digital 911 a good idea, though? I doubt it. (Score:2)
It seems that whenever a means of communicaiton goes digital, the amount of spam, of one sort or another, increases dramatically. That's not what you want on an emergency response line.
I'm all for properly funding emergency response, but I'm not convinced that spending it on digitizing the system has ANY significant advantages, and I strongly suspect that it would have LOTS of downsides.
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One of the challenges of 911 is that it doesn’t scale well for emergencies. Digitization of the system could allow for better tools to help surge capacity like chatbots or the like. No, those are not ideal every-day solutions, but when there is a real mass tragedy event you need to be able to triage calls.
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I can see using digital communications internally, rather than on an outwards facing access channel. But this doesn't seem to be the way it tends to get applied. And even for just internal communications there are a huge number of horrible examples, including things like ships that need to be rebooted. And what happens the next time the system provider decides to update all its' systems with a buggy update? (If you tell me that won't happen, I won't believe you.)
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Prank/spam calls to emergency services where I live will get you a fine and up to 1 year in prison. This can nicely extend to digital media communications.
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Now apply that to someone calling from India or China. Sorry, that isn't a good argument.
Multimedia is not where I'd start (Score:3)
Texting is great for the disabled and should be a priority.
Where I live, my phone's GPS information does not get uploaded to the 911 center. That's mission-critical information that should not have to rely on a human caller getting something right under stress.
I see uses for multimedia but I would need convincing it's not a luxury.
Some states already have it (Score:2)
Connecticut completed it's own digital 911 upgrade and can not support texting. If this funding is not in the bill states can just do it on their own with a less complicated bureaucracy and less overhead.
Implementation map (Score:2)
Yep, here's a map with the current state of implementation [nena.org].
Props to IA, IN, VT, ME, and the Upper Peninsula for leading the pack.
Maybe NV, NM, OK, GA, and WV were holding out for free federal money to get moving on this?
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Then each state ends up with a different system, and in the long run ends up spending more money. The right way is strong model standards by the feds with latitude for variance based on local need.
This is the problem (Score:2)
There was all manner of talk about the total size of the bill, but really these are investments we SHOULD have been making continually for generations now, but haven't. So really, even the original like $3tn total was probably not even enough to make up for the lack of funding that has been deferred for one reason or another over the decades and then dealing with the natural scenario that the longer you put something off the more expensive it becomes to fix later.
We keep going through this process time and
Why not register 911@gmail.com (Score:2)
and ask all US staff to monitor it whenever they are not on a 911 call.
I just saved you $15B.
Stupid use of "decimate". (Score:2)
It doesn't make you sound erudite. Stop using it unless referring to the military practice last used against French army mutineers in WWI. Incorrect use of the term is an instant tardflag.
Make the Telcos pay (Score:2)
Congress shouldnâ(TM)t pay for 911, they should order the telcos. If Comcast wants to sell VOIP, Bam, theyâ(TM)re a telco. Tell them the system must be universal and LET THE MARKET DECIDE
Decimate (Score:2)
Decimate [merriam-webster.com]: To remove one in ten.
Ex: You have 100% of something; your holdings are decimated; you now have 90%.
Re: Fuck that. (Score:2, Insightful)
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You joke, but this is how it should be. Democrats are out there gutting first responder programs under defund the police campaign promises, and sticking that money into slush funds that will not really accomplish much. EV incentives for companies that have declared bankruptcy not 12 years ago, and UAW pork will buy us nothing but bigger and more expensive election campaigns. Better 911? Yeah. That would have helped everyone; especially the poorer communities. Fuck democrats. As always.
I'm pretty sure that if some Republicans could overcome their obsession with obstruction and asinine sectarianism (not unlike the venom dripping off your post) long enough they could find enough Democrats to vote for a separate 10 billion bipartisan funding bill for 911. Buuuut because the orange Hutt would not like that and since Republicans, apart from those few brave souls that voted for the infrastructure bill don't seem to have a spine, 911 will be stuck in the analog age.
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Pot, Kettle, black.
Re: Fuck that. (Score:4, Insightful)
he democrats control both chambers and the White House.
Not really. They still 60 votes for cloture and get past any Republican Filibuster. Reconciliation can only be used a limited number of times each fiscal year and only applies to a very narrow type of bills. Sure, they might be able to stick this in another qualifying bill, but they're having trouble (a) fighting among themselves (b) getting past DINOs Manchin and Sinema and (c) getting past Republicans who don't want Democrats to have *any* successes -- the fate of the Country be damned.
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It's all Republicans' fault that the Democrats in charge of Congress AND the White House hate the police and actively work to defund them! Darn you, Orange Guy who isn't currently in office! Ebrytang be all yoo's fault!
Oh for god's sake quit the #victimhood, #primadonna, performance. What I described is basically how congress has worked 98% of the time since 1776. The majority gets to set the course and the minority gets some of their stuff in too so that you can get the bill through with 60 bipartisan votes for filibuster proof cloture. This modern state of affairs where Congress can literally get nothing done for years on end without reconciliation once or twice a year is a trend that started with Newt Gingrich and is n
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Slashing funds for government sounds like a republican wet dream.
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Slashing funds for government sounds like a republican wet dream.
Yeah, they're the one who demanded that the bill be shrunk, but as usual they'll still claim to support the programs they refuse to fund.
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Yeah! Of course, you're demanding the Republicans make that shit illegal and "drain the swamp". Right?
So contact your Republican politician and tell him your vote depends on a Republican government fixing the emergency phone service. Advise your friends to do the same.
Because we all want private enterprise to provide a first-response better than the government could, right? The massive overheads those capitalists charge, like they do with health-care and pharmaceuticals, gives them a reason to look after
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Yeah! Of course, you're demanding the Republicans make that shit illegal and "drain the swamp". Right?
Actually I vote libertarian most of the time, and Republican some of the time, because yeah, Republicans aren't as bad at this.
So contact your Republican politician and tell him your vote depends on a Republican government fixing the emergency phone service. Advise your friends to do the same.
No, it does not. But if there were it's own bill, I would support it.
Because we all want private enterprise to provide a first-response better than the government could, right? The massive overheads those capitalists charge, like they do with health-care and pharmaceuticals, gives them a reason to look after you, unlike some government bureaucrat. Right?
Right. Private enterprise makes a profit, but that pales in comparison to the fuckery that government waste is. At least people benefit from profit, especially when it goes into R&D and growth of companies. Perfect example of private vs public? Education. Public spends far, far more per pupil along with the ad
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Actually I vote libertarian most of the time, ...
I would imagine Libertarians would be against this sort of thing 'cause people should just rescue themselves... :-)
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And anyway, they can just call a private medical transport company and ask for a ride.
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I'm sure they had to choose between a lot of bad options. Republicans won't let democrats pass bills otherwise, they've got Manchin and Sinema so sacrifices had to be made
Really similar to Obamacare. GOP gutted it and then spent years talking about all the problems they created and saying it has to go
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Yup, it's always the Republicans fault.
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I still get sad everytime I hear your party blame the republicans for a health care bill that none of the voted for.
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So what's the Republican proposal? They failed to repeal the ACA despite having majority in both houses and a president who ran on repealing it. Do they even care about fixing health care?
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trillions of dollars we don't have
1) its only $15 billion.
2) we have it. Even under a regressive flat tax, it would only amount to $45 per citizen.
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Being able to send a text message to 911 is extremely useful, and already an option in some other countries.
There are all kinds of situations where you might not be able to make a voice call to 911 - eg due to being unable to talk or in immediate danger etc. The easier it is to contact the emergency services the better.
An ability to send photos or make a video call is also extremely useful as you could provide more information about the situation that way.
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Fifteen billion seems like a lot though. I got a glimpse into this after than anthrax attacks; suddenly there was a shit ton of money for bioterrorism and there were a whole lot of connected federal contractors were interested in "partnering" with us even though our work had nothing to do with it. There was shit-ton of money spent on useless systems; some agencies got some nice equipment although not necessarily the funds to use it; others got nothing. It was basically a scam; they needed us as a fig l
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Solar is a good example. I was doing research on solar in the 1980 and by 1990 all the funding dried up and we had to do military. Now China has all the money for solar. Even when the US could have played catchup, there was valu
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The entire history of history is the story of change. By opposing that change, it is conservatism that is all but by definition choosing to be on the wrong side of history.
Re:Fascist anti-democrats (Score:5, Informative)
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You mean they cut money in areas Republican's support so they could get Republican votes?
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Re:Fascist anti-democrats (Score:5, Insightful)
Their own former majority leader, John Boehner, referred to what's now the Trumpist faction (back when they called themselves the Teabaggers) as "legislative terrorists." They have no interest at all in governing. Their only objective is to bluescreen the United States so that they can take advantage of the chaos. And if anyone hasn't noticed, that faction has completely taken over the entire party.
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Agreed. And it similarly blows my mind that anyone has ANY trust whatsoever, especially enough to vote for someone who is part of their party, in a Democrat who has lived through this same thing but even closer to the inaction, and still claims in public that they believe that it's possible to negotiate with legislative terrorists. It's very clearly all a badly written show, they are actors working from a single script in which nothing is ever going to be accomplished.
If you vote for democrats, and you are
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Ain't democracy a bitch? Have to do all this "compromising" bullshit. Strange how, just because one side is in power, they can't have everything. That seems so... inconvenient.
By the way, we're still borrowing money faster than anyone on the planet.. You seem angry we aren't borrowing it even faster than that.
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Gotta fatten up the rich before we eat them. It just makes sense.
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Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
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This is a racist fascist website and I'm done with it.
oooh so sad. Goodbye.
Anyway where were we?
No you're not. (Score:2)
This is a racist fascist website and I'm done with it.
If you were actually done with it you wouldn't have posted AC. You posted AC because you're lying and don't want to be called out tomorrow when it turns out you're actually still here.
See you then.
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The point is that there may be many occasions where you need to call 911 but you don't want someone to overhear you doing it.
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Add in deaf people, people hiding from intruders, people injured such that they can't speak clearly, etc.
Not to mention people in areas with spotty coverage that can perhaps get out a text message but not an actual phone call.
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Close to where I live a nature photographer was hiking up a mountain and fell into a crevasse. Jammed between the rocks and the snow, several meters deep, his phone had very crappy reception, not good enough for a phone call. He read the GPS coordinates from his DSLR, wrote them down in a text message and sent it to 112 (European 911). The mountain rescuers said that they never would have found him without the exact coordinates.
Large bills are because only a few bills pass (Score:2, Insightful)
This is why the filibuster is stupid (Score:2)
If it's going to take 60 votes to pass legislation in the senate, fine, make it 60. If it takes 50, the filibuster needs to go to hell. ESPECIALLY as it is currently imple
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Democrats wanted this and are the ones who put it in the earlier bill. Republicans are the ones who fought against the bill, and made them shrink the bill.
Are you an idiot? (Don't answer that)
Lets make bills single topic again!
That was never a thing, and no, we don't want your right-wing, get-nothing-done suggestion.
Because not everybody has the same priorities, then you'd have to have a complicated system of promising to vote for other issues, in return for voting for one issue. It would be fake. For real reasons.
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The "Build Back Better" plan has a good chance of never making it to Biden's desk as is. Democrats are starting to wake up to the reality that Biden & co. have torpedoed their favorability ratings.