In a Boston Court, a Superstar of Science Falls To Earth (nytimes.com) 97
A jury found the Harvard chemist Charles Lieber guilty of lying to the federal government about his participation in China's Thousand Talents recruitment program. From a report: Charles Lieber, one of the country's top research chemists, sat miserably in a chair at the Harvard Police Department, trying to explain to two F.B.I. agents why he had agreed to partner with a lesser-known Chinese university in a relationship that had soured and landed him in trouble with the U.S. government. The university had money to spend -- "that's one of the things China uses to try to seduce people," Dr. Lieber said in the interrogation, clips of which were shown in court. But money wasn't the reason, he said. By training young scientists in the use of technology he had pioneered, he hoped to burnish his credentials with the committee that decides the ultimate scientific honor.
"This is embarrassing," he said. "Every scientist wants to win a Nobel Prize." On Tuesday, after deliberating for two hours and 45 minutes, a federal jury found Dr. Lieber guilty of two counts of making false statements to the U.S. government about whether he participated in Thousand Talents Plan, a program designed by the Chinese government to attract foreign-educated scientists to China. They also found him guilty of failing to declare income earned in China and failing to report a Chinese bank account.
"This is embarrassing," he said. "Every scientist wants to win a Nobel Prize." On Tuesday, after deliberating for two hours and 45 minutes, a federal jury found Dr. Lieber guilty of two counts of making false statements to the U.S. government about whether he participated in Thousand Talents Plan, a program designed by the Chinese government to attract foreign-educated scientists to China. They also found him guilty of failing to declare income earned in China and failing to report a Chinese bank account.
Nothing to do with science or geeks (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, he is a scientist and we do have a problem with espionage and technology "leakage" from all sides, not just China. It's just that China is very overt about it.
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Project much ?
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do we?
any specific and concrete example of harm produced because of such "technology leakages"?
Everything to do with science (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple tax fraud simple failure to declare.
There is nothing simple at all about accepting money from foreign countries and trying to hide it.
The problem with science is that it is currently riddled with money and support from directions you have no idea. It's not just China doing this, but ideological foundations of all kinds that are altering what science actually gets reported, or funded.
This is just the tip of a very deep iceberg and if you care about science at all, about real objective science, then you should care about this.
Re:Nothing to do with science or geeks (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple tax fraud simple failure to declare.
How can you say this has nothing to do with science when the Chinese campaign he was working for is specifically targeting scientists. Not artists, accounts, musicians, etc. Scientists. From the story summary: " a program designed by the Chinese government to attract foreign-educated scientists to China"
Re:Nothing to do with science or geeks (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it sounds like the story actually has nothing to do with his participation in that program.
It's about him committing tax fraud and lying to the government about participating in the program, presumably so that he'd be allowed to work on something that was considered too sensitive to include people who might have a conflict of interest. (There is a HUGE amount of university research that falls under that umbrella)
It doesn't matter if you're a scientist, an accountant, or a janitor, getting caught committing tax fraud and lying on a government background check is not going to end well for you.
Re: Nothing to do with science or geeks (Score:2)
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Because it sounds like the story actually has nothing to do with his participation in that program.
Of course, in the same way that Al Capone's conviction for tax evasion had nothing to do with his participation in organized crime.
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Because it sounds like the story actually has nothing to do with his participation in that program.
Of course, in the same way that Al Capone's conviction for tax evasion had nothing to do with his participation in organized crime.
This. Dude had money put in his bank account, and came back with a briefcase of cash.
FTA: "He went on to offer detail about his financial arrangements with the Wuhan university: A portion of his salary was deposited in a Chinese bank account and the remainder — an amount he estimated as between $50,000 and $100,000 — was paid in $100 bills, which he carried home in his luggage.
Why, sounds like bribery given and accepted.
The bullshit part is he and his lawyers are trying to make it sound l
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That is one way to interpret it.
Personally I think we could learn a lesson from how ancient Norse law handled killing. You could kill a man openly, pay were-guild to his family, and that would be the end of it. Try to hide the fact that you killed him though, and you were declared a "wolf in hallowed places" (literal translation) and your life was forfeit to anyone who wished to take it.
Seems to me such a principle might have much to contribute to the integrity of modern society, far more broadly than jus
Even a geek can be entrapped (Score:3, Interesting)
No, not a brain fart, but an extremely weak FP. Shallow. And critical, but not constructive ior thoughtful criticism. I can't say I welcome criticism, but sometimes I learn something from it ior it helps me refine ior extend my thinking on a topic. Your comment does NOTHING like that.
What I'm looking for, but will almost certainly not find on today's insight would be some insight into how this formerly eminent scientist got suckered. I'm quite confident that he is a smart guy and a legitimate expert, but he
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No one got suckered. Scientists need money to do research. They can either get it from industry, in which case their research is tainted, a la the cigarettes manufactures studies, or the can get it from public sources.
While a cool story, scientists do not travel on planes with a 100K in hundred dollar bills, and don't have money put in their personal accounts?
There is a detailed and highly defined process for getting research money, and never does it involve suitcases of cash and money deposited in the scientist's personal bank account. Proposals are written and reviewed and submitted. Then if accepted, and clearing things like ITAR, checks are cut to the university that the researcher is working for. And all is heav
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If he's like about 99% of the scientists I know his life skills are at about the level of a seven-year-old, so he probably didn't see any problem until it was too late. Admittedly this is his defence lawyer speaking but:
âoeIsnâ(TM)t it troubling that nobody in this courtroom has explained what the Thousand Talents Plan is and who is in it?â he said. âoeIsnâ(TM)t it troubling that Dr. Lieberâ(TM)s work was all public, was for the benefit of the world, yet he is facing criminal charges for it?â He added, âoeNo villains, no victims, no one got robbed, no one got rich, but over a few seconds of conversation â" Special Agent Mousseau called it a blip on the radar â" the worldâ(TM)s greatest nanoscientist is facing multiple felonies.â
A scientist looking for funding made a bit of a mess of getting the funding and now he's being crucified for it. If he'd simply lied in his grant application to the NSF or DARPA like many other researchers do, not only would nothing have happened but he'd have been handed millions in resea
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If he's like about 99% of the scientists I know his life skills are at about the level of a seven-year-old, so he probably didn't see any problem until it was too late. Admittedly this is his defence lawyer speaking but:
âoeIsnâ(TM)t it troubling that nobody in this courtroom has explained what the Thousand Talents Plan is and who is in it?â he said. âoeIsnâ(TM)t it troubling that Dr. Lieberâ(TM)s work was all public, was for the benefit of the world, yet he is facing criminal charges for it?â He added, âoeNo villains, no victims, no one got robbed, no one got rich, but over a few seconds of conversation â" Special Agent Mousseau called it a blip on the radar â" the worldâ(TM)s greatest nanoscientist is facing multiple felonies.â
Although I would be amazed if he wasn't given a counterintelligence briefing. If Harvard doesn't do that, they need to start.
I know what you mean about the life skills. One of the simplest ways used to get intel out of the geeks is to praise their work. It tends to open their yaps and they don't stop talking. I even made note of this during my career. Once you express interest, they are off to the races.
A scientist looking for funding made a bit of a mess of getting the funding and now he's being crucified for it.
Because it was super shady. If my wife suddenly came home from a foreign trip with 100K in cash, and o
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No, that is NOT the straw man I was constructing.
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No, that is NOT the straw man I was constructing.
Helps if you explain who you were replying to.
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NAK
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What I'm looking for, but will almost certainly not find on today's insight would be some insight into how this formerly eminent scientist got suckered.
He was offered a bribe, and he accepted. He did have money placed in his bank account, and came back from China with cash money in his luggage.
Insight? The simple one is they found his price. A more humanitarian insight might be he was trying to set of a fund for his wife - he is suffering from cancer. I don't know the timeline.
But scientists are human and they will occasionally do what other people might do.
Another possibility is that he didn't conform to their wishes - don't know - but there is anot
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I'm not denying that those details are part of the story, but I doubt that it's the entire thing. What went before is kind of important. Once the fish is properly hooked, it doesn't matter too much. But I still wager his "case officer" would have tried to keep him safe and useful as long as possible. Heck, the Chinese surely would have offered tax accounting help, too.
Let me throw out another angle. Maybe the first dangle was a way to help one of his former students? I'm not claiming to be a great teacher,
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Simple tax fraud simple failure to declare. And Harvard has some oversight issues. If anything, it remind geeks to work on contract to not hide income.
And not hide foreign bank accounts. File your FBAR. It takes a few minutes, and failure to do so just sets you up for extra charges and penalties if things ever get pear shaped.
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And not to work with or be seduced by a foreign power that throws money at foreign scientists and technologies in either a way to steal those ideas via espionage or willingly given via contractual obligation. It isn't just simple tax fraud. You're looking at it from a very narrow point of view.
Re: Great now do (Score:1)
Why? Hey why are anti-vaxxers not going after Trump? He took the booster, even claims he created the vaccines.
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He did NOT declare a vaccine mandate. He declared a mandate *for government employees*. Nobody is forcing you to get the vaccine. If you're not willing to obey your employer's health and safety rules, then you're free to quit your job and find one with rules you find more acceptable.
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Things are pretty bad, my government has been fining companies for sending roofers onto the roof without a safety line, anti-freedom all the way. Even worse, they shut down a restaurant for having rat shit mixed in with the food. Those poor employees and the owner, put out of work for such a stupid reason. Then there was the asbestos removable company, fined to shit for not supplying personal protection equipment and not teaching about the hazards of removing asbestos. Fucking government forcing some busine
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So, you're saying that you're so incompetent that the only way you can feed yourself is to hold onto some bureaucratically secured government job where nobody cares how badly you fuck up?
It's a free(ish) market. If you don't like the job one company is selling, find another. Nothing says your employer has to honor your desire to put your coworkers health and lives at risk.
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He did NOT declare a vaccine mandate. He declared a mandate *for government employees*. Nobody is forcing you to get the vaccine. If you're not willing to obey your employer's health and safety rules, then you're free to quit your job and find one with rules you find more acceptable.
Funny thing is that this is what at-will employment gets you.
I suspect a lot of antivaxxers really hate being hoist by their own petard.
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Biden has been pushing to mandate for working US citizens using OSHA.
Even he admitted it may not stand up to SCOTUS muster, but he was trying it anyway...it's on video.
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We can't know that for sure. What if Trump had been re-elected?
Then most of the anti vaxxer rhetoric would be couched in leftist terms. Remember a few years ago when the right was making fun of the hippies in california for refusing to vaccinate their kids and outbreaks of whooping cough and measles were happening?
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It's interesting, a short while ago my Province of BC published the vaccination rates and hospitalization rates around the Province. The areas that vote right had the lowest rates of vaccinations and the highest rates of hospitalization, with over flowing ICU units. Some of the old hippy areas, who vote left, had almost the same low rates of vaccinations but low hospitalization rates. My theory is that the hippies, while refusing to put the vaccine in their arms, otherwise were following the health guidelin
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Well, here in Canada, we've mostly avoided the politicization of the pandemic, though there is leakage across the border, likely why we've done a lot better. Most pandemic relief measures have passed with all parties support, all the major parties pretty well in agreement about the needed health measures though the Conservatives don't like some of the vaccine mandates. The Peoples Party, the only party against health measures etc did increase their share of the vote to 5% in last Octobers election. Almost 9
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He's been booed while on stage talking about it. It was bad enough in a November appearance that he quickly changed topics. A few days ago, when he and Bill O'Reilly were doing one of their tour appearances, they brought up getting boosters and got sporadic boos from around the audience, while the rest remained mostly quiet. O'Reilly said in a media appearance that he had to console Trump after they left the stage because he was hurt that his supporters would turn on him. (Yeah, I don't much care, either.)
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I wonder if he will walk back his statements, or claim the footage was doctored and that he never said it. Given he has zero reservations about lying I think he might do that, and his fans are suckers enough to believe it. I mean whenever he makes a bad decision his fans excuse it by saying he was just a victim of being bamboozled by bad advice. Even now I am seeing right wingers claiming Trump was being misled so it's all good, but in Biden or Obama's case they are not being misled? Why can't they excuse B
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To his credit, he hasn't walked back the statements. He hasn't lashed out publicly about it, but he went on Candace Owens show and talked about the benefits of the vaccine in massively reducing the disease severity and chance of death. When people in that audience started booing him, he waved them off, showing frustration on his face and repeatedly saying "Don't" to the naysayers. (Owens herself asked her viewers after the show to cut him some slack, saying that he's old and doesn't use the internet much, s
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He built up that sentiment, so it's on him if it comes back to haunt him.
In what way? As I recall, both Biden and Harris talked out against the vaccines when Trump was in office, I don't recall Trump ever telling anyone they shouldn't get the vaccine.
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Trump was shown to be a major spreader of anti-vax rhetoric on twitter: https://journals.plos.org/plos... [plos.org]
You also might be recalling Biden and Harris a bit wrong as they said they WOULD take a vaccine if it was recommended by medical experts.
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O'Reilly said in a media appearance that he had to console Trump after they left the stage because he was hurt that his supporters would turn on him.
He thinks they like him, but they only follow/support him only because they think he's like them.
He thinks he's in charge, but he's not. (That's actually more dangerous.)
He's in this for the idolatry, they're in this for the ideology.
"That trick never works." (Score:2)
Feeding the trolls never works, but at least you could change the Subject. (However it was a vacuous Subject so it scarcely matters. Unless the troll gets paid based on Subject propagation?)
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The alternative to vacuous is substance, that's not an area Trump or his followers excel at.
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That one is simple.
First, some groups do go after him they are not quite as monolithic like you seem to think.
https://god.dailydot.com/anti-... [dailydot.com]
Second, there are really few people that are anti-vax. There are people that are against forcing any vax on a people for various reasons. There are people against particular vax like some of the COVID ones. There are people that are undecided about risk/benefit on any given situation. However, look at something like the MMR vaccines, they are usually accepted at arou
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Do all politicians, especially the leadership of the parties. You may suddenly see lots of retirements announced.
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Wouldn't that be a great day!!! I am so tired of the parties only caring about what is best for the party and not what is best for America.
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Why would anyone need to look for Hunter's laptop? It is in possession of the FBI, who are using it in their investigation of tax fraud. They have already announced the investigation. I'm wondering when they will get to the email about "10% for the Big Guy" that was already confirmed by others on the email to be about Joe Biden. That is flat out bribery, but I guess that is ok because he has a (D) next to his name.
In case you need a left wing source so you believe it, here is CNN discussing it.
https://w [cnn.com]
Lieber is dissimilar to Nobelists (Score:5, Insightful)
I have known a few Nobelists in my day (3 of them pretty well, a couple others less closely) and they are indeed very driven people. But they are not so much driven by the desire to win that prize. They are far wiser than Lieber.
One of the interesting comments in the NYT article about him was on how badly he treats his grad students and postdocs, another major difference between him and the true giants of their fields. According to the commenter, he has had (almost exclusively) mainland Chinese folks in this role, which the commenter attributes to their willingness to suffer work conditions rejected by many others.
On that topic, let me just say that I have taught quite a few mainland Chinese grad students over the years, and they seem less and less of that unquestioning culture. To me, it's great, as I want real independent thinkers in my class. Folks who I hope will either stay here and do great things, or go back to China to do great things, and tell their friends that America was a pretty awesome place to spend a few years. Even if the censors keep them from saying that online.
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attributes to their willingness to suffer work conditions rejected by many others
But now we know the truth; those are the people he was paid to support!
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In general kissing up works in the work-world. I've seen it many times. Maybe you are the exception as far as bosses go, but those who STFU are often rewarded over "reality-friendly" employees.
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In general kissing up works in the work-world. I've seen it many times.
Virtue, Aristotle teaches us, lies in moderation. Willingness to do a little well-timed and judicious ego-stroking is not inherently a vice; continually and unthinkingly throwing uncomfortable truths in people's faces is certainly not a virtue.
Context, quantity, and quality make a difference in ego-stroking. If you hide a problem from a coworker to appease his ego, you undermine him. If you continually flatter people, particularly with transparent lies, they will see you as untrustworthy. But it doesn'
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> If you hide a problem from a coworker to appease his ego, you undermine him.
There are ways to indirectly deliver unwelcomed news, but it's not an easy art, especially for we Asperger types. And bad news is often frowned upon no matter how delivered. Bad news gets associated with the messenger due to basic Pavlov-like conditioning: X is often around when Y happens (Y being bad news), thus the listener unconsciously wishes to avoid X. Reality isn't popular with humans.
> If you continually flatter peo
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Virtue, Aristotle teaches us, lies in moderation.
Mentioning Aristotle now always makes me think of these two exchanges in The Good Place [wikipedia.org].
From season1, episode 3, "Tahani Al-Jamil":
Chidi Anagonye: [in front of blackboard showing list of Greek philosophers]
So Aristotle was Plato's student. And Aristotle believes that your character is voluntary, because it's just the result of your actions, which are under your control. For example, right now, you have made the insane choice to ignore the person who is literally trying to save you from eternal damnation.
Eleanor Shellstrop: No, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening. Uh, I just... are we sure we should be paying attention to these guys? It's like, who died and left Aristotle in charge of ethics?
Chidi Anagonye: [pointing to blackboard] Plato!
And season 3, episode 1/2, "Everything Is Bonzer!" [wikipedia.org]:
Chidi Anagonye: So for Aristotle, virtue is practical. Goodness isn't something that a person just inherently has. It's something that she achieves through her actions. Questions?
Eleanor Shellstrop: Uh, yeah, a few. I wrote down "what?" "huh?" And then this doodle of a burrito because when I first read Aristotle, I thought it was pronounced like Chipotle. [Has a sudden thought] Wait a minute, is it "Chip-o-tottle"?
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I love that show. One of the most intelligent things ever put on TV.
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I love that show. One of the most intelligent things ever put on TV.
I have the entire series on DVD. It's nice 'cause there are a few extra snippets that were cut to fit into the network time slot, and you can stop and check all the Easter eggs -- like the corner street sign in Australia (season 3) in front of the Nemo Cafe that says: “THISISA St” and “THISISNOTA St.” (referring to the "That's not a knife" / "This is a knife" scene in the movie Crocodile Dundee) -- Google "the good place easter eggs".
I've watched the series several times through a
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A sample of 3 is good enough for you from a pool of around 1000? By the way I have known how a few Nobel laureates treat their grad students too. One example of many: A laureate made a grad student cry in front of an audience during his presentation (granted, it was because he made a blunder.) The student mentioned FRET, and then made a very common mistake regarding the mechanism of how FRET works. Oh boy, that was too much and this professor totally berated and humiliated him. I feel like it could have bee
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A sample of 3 is good enough for you from a pool of around 1000?
That's a touch unfair, I never generalized to more than the ones I know.
By the way I have known how a few Nobel laureates treat their grad students too. One example of many: A laureate made a grad student cry in front of an audience during his presentation...
Sounds like Medicine...I haven't known any of those folks. But based on this story, perhaps I am none the poorer for it.
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Too bad that wasn't the FP. Much more thoughtful.
Just noting that my last class had a lot of Chinese grad students in it. Also worth noting they included most of the top students. I should have taken the opportunity to learn more about their political views, but it was a computer science course and I scrupulously steered clear, though I remain curious.
I think it was The Big Nine by Amy Webb where I read quite a bit about the Chinese government program to recruit in the States. Or it might have been anothe
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I have known a few Nobelists in my day (3 of them pretty well, a couple others less closely) and they are indeed very driven people. But they are not so much driven by the desire to win that prize. They are far wiser than Lieber.
I've been fortunate enough to have known a handful as well, and, in addition, people who wanted the prize, but didn't get it despite sometimes overt campaigns. The first group were, each of them, humble. Not in in the sense that they might say, "aw shucks," but in the sense that success had brought them comfort and confidence in being who they were. They didn't need to trumpet their accomplishments; the world had told them they had done great work. None, that I recall, had their medal on display in thei
Party's over folks (Score:1)
I hope to God they keep digging and find some more of these people buried in the universities.
Foreign money from dictatorships should have no place in institutions that train our future leaders* of science, industry, and government.
*or for that matter, not just leaders but also the vast multitudes of people whose names you'll never hear but whose years of quite dignity of gainful employment and occasional civic engagement is the bedrock upon which our liberal democracy has always stood.
He didnt have to hide it (Score:5, Interesting)
Lieber didnt have to hide it. He could have simply declared “I’m in the thousand points program because I’m collaborating with Chinese scientists, deal with it” and the US would tapped his phone, monitored him, but otherwise let him go about his business. Instead, he’s in a much worse situation. What a shame. Poor choice.
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> Lieber didnt have to hide it.
Some scientists believe they are being harassed [aip.org], even for "open" science topics. In this hyper-politicized nation, it's hard to say which collaboration will result in pressure and questioning by authorities. One President may be okay with something and the next not.
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It suggests much about his personal ethics. He clearly thought he was going to get in trouble, so he chose to lie. He knew he had this bank account, he knew he participated in the program, and he lied. That shows he thought he was doing something that was wrong and made decisions based on that. That suggests pathological reasons.
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With regards to the state departments China initiative: overall, its jusified. Its well known that China is using our university system for espionage purposes
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There are scientists who are scientists, and there are scientists who are politicians. The former are the kind who say "screw idiot governments" and that's a very old tradition. Some of the only things to pass fairly freely through Napoleon's blockade of England were scientists and their letters.
The latter are the ones who want to be important. You can get to be important by accident by doing good science and having principles, but most of the deans, science advisors, directors etc. of the world did it by n
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The difference between China and USSR is that USSR was motivated by ideology and ego, while China is motivated by racism. The latter is a lot more powerful, as the left keeps telling us.
Forgot that Trump got $10 million from Russians in (Score:1, Offtopic)
Superstar? (Score:1)
Declare everything (Score:2)
You can argue which box it "goes in" / "should have gone in" all day. The odds of a harsh sentence for "wrong box" / "wrong interpretation of the rules" are are crazy low. Prosecutors can't be bothered.*
*does not apply to selling balls of Pu239 in certain Middle Eastern countries. ;)
(Side note. With 80,000 pages of spaghetti tax code, a black and white interpretation often isn't there. Appeal the low level rulings and eventually you will hit someone who will only press on with cases the IRS can clearly wi
i fail to understand ... (Score:2)
a federal jury found Dr. Lieber guilty of two counts of making false statements to the U.S. government about whether he participated in Thousand Talents Plan
tax evasion is one thing, but i fail to understand how it is a government's business to ask a citizen about his/her involvement in scientific programs abroad in the first place. i thought that would be "private business" in the "land of the free", but it seems the decadence is sowing alarming levels of paranoia already ...
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The reason the US government did it is because they accuse China of stealing technology from the US this way (specifically military technology, like stealth planes).
It looks like the reason he is going to jail is the same reason Martha Stewart went to jail: not for doing something wrong, but because she talked to the police.
Don't talk to the police (Score:2)
Charles Lieber, one of the country's top research chemists, sat miserably in a chair at the Harvard Police Department, trying to explain to two F.B.I. agents why
That was his mistake, don't talk to the police. Especially the FBI [youtube.com].
Confession (Score:2)
...trying to explain to two F.B.I. agents why...
Science smart, legally ignorant. Never talk to police or agents. He confessed to crimes because he didn't know rule number one: don't talk to the police.
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...trying to explain to two F.B.I. agents why...
Science smart, legally ignorant. Never talk to police or agents. He confessed to crimes because he didn't know rule number one: don't talk to the police.
Yeah, the record of $50,000/month completely unreported income landing in his bank account wouldn't be a problem at all. /s
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Do your research. You may still be found guilty in the end, but talking to the police makes that likelihood far higher (especially if you're NOT guilty). You are removing defense options every time you tell the police something, even if they already know it. You will easily convict yourself before ever getting that first, crucial meeting with your defense attorney. At that point, all he's good for is witnessing your sentencing.
YouTube has LOTS of videos by attorneys to teach you how to handle the police. Th
He is just going to move to China, if he can (Score:2)
He needs a good 10-20 years in prison.
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If I were you, I'd be more concerned with the Americans who planned and conducted an attempt to overthrow your government last January and turn your country into a fascist dictatorship. Those people need life in prison without parole.
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JUst because we have a traitor ( for Russia) that was our president and pushed for insursection by other Americans,
how does that justify another American's treason/perjury for China?
More info ... (Score:4, Informative)
It is more than tax evasion, thought this is what they got him for.
The BBC [bbc.com] has a bit more info.
Lawyer up (Score:2)
Good illustration of the saying that when any investigative agency with police powers shows up to "ask you a few questions" you give them the phone number of your lawyer and stop talking.
Silly Chemist, Lying Is For Feds (Score:2)
If you lie to Federal authorities it is a serious offense with heavy penalties. Yet if they lie to you, well, that just happens sometimes; get used to it.
Nobel Prize? (Score:1)