Some Billionaires Embrace Cryptocurrencies in Case Money 'Goes to Hell' (msn.com) 81
Hungarian-born billionaire Thomas Peterffy, chairman of Interactive Brokers Group, says the online brokerage is now expanding the cryptocurrencies it offers its customers after sensing "urgency" from their clients to get in.
He still hasn't decided whether cryptocurrencies are a good investment — "I think it can go to zero, and I think it can go to a million dollars," he tells Bloomberg. "I have no idea." But he's invested a small amount just as a hedge against possible problems with fiat currency. His approach highlights the shifting attitude toward crypto by investors who once scorned or were wary of digital tokens but realized, especially in 2021, that they can't bear to miss out on the potential for big gains....
[American billionaire] Ray Dalio recently revealed he was holding at least some Bitcoin and Ethereum in his portfolio only months after questioning crypto's utility as a store of wealth. The Bridgewater Associates founder views the investments as an alternative money in a world where "cash is trash'' and inflation erodes buying power. [American billionaire hedge fund manager] Paul Tudor Jones disclosed he's invested as a hedge against inflation, and almost half the family offices Goldman Sachs Group Inc. does business with were interested in adding digital currencies to their portfolios, according to a recent bank survey.
Crypto moved increasingly into the mainstream of finance, albeit with mixed success. ProShares launched the first U.S. Bitcoin futures ETF, which attracted more than $1 billion in two days, before inflows sputtered and the price slumped since its October debut. Crypto enthusiasts are still hoping U.S. regulators approve an ETF that actually holds Bitcoin in 2022. Faring better, Coinbase Global Inc. went public and now has a $54 billion market valuation. It's founder, Brian Armstrong, is worth $9.7 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index...
There's still plenty of skepticism from Wall Street and the ultra-wealthy, but also pragmatism. [Multinational hedge fund] Citadel's Ken Griffin recently described the rush to embrace cryptocurrencies as a "jihadist call" against the U.S. dollar. But Griffin said his own firm would trade crypto if there were more regulation. JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s Jamie Dimon called Bitcoin "worthless" in October, but that came even as the New York-based banking giant was bulking up hiring to help its clients trade digital currencies.
The bank's clients are "adults," Dimon has said.
He still hasn't decided whether cryptocurrencies are a good investment — "I think it can go to zero, and I think it can go to a million dollars," he tells Bloomberg. "I have no idea." But he's invested a small amount just as a hedge against possible problems with fiat currency. His approach highlights the shifting attitude toward crypto by investors who once scorned or were wary of digital tokens but realized, especially in 2021, that they can't bear to miss out on the potential for big gains....
[American billionaire] Ray Dalio recently revealed he was holding at least some Bitcoin and Ethereum in his portfolio only months after questioning crypto's utility as a store of wealth. The Bridgewater Associates founder views the investments as an alternative money in a world where "cash is trash'' and inflation erodes buying power. [American billionaire hedge fund manager] Paul Tudor Jones disclosed he's invested as a hedge against inflation, and almost half the family offices Goldman Sachs Group Inc. does business with were interested in adding digital currencies to their portfolios, according to a recent bank survey.
Crypto moved increasingly into the mainstream of finance, albeit with mixed success. ProShares launched the first U.S. Bitcoin futures ETF, which attracted more than $1 billion in two days, before inflows sputtered and the price slumped since its October debut. Crypto enthusiasts are still hoping U.S. regulators approve an ETF that actually holds Bitcoin in 2022. Faring better, Coinbase Global Inc. went public and now has a $54 billion market valuation. It's founder, Brian Armstrong, is worth $9.7 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index...
There's still plenty of skepticism from Wall Street and the ultra-wealthy, but also pragmatism. [Multinational hedge fund] Citadel's Ken Griffin recently described the rush to embrace cryptocurrencies as a "jihadist call" against the U.S. dollar. But Griffin said his own firm would trade crypto if there were more regulation. JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s Jamie Dimon called Bitcoin "worthless" in October, but that came even as the New York-based banking giant was bulking up hiring to help its clients trade digital currencies.
The bank's clients are "adults," Dimon has said.
Meh. (Score:4, Informative)
Well makes sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
That makes total sense. If the world goes to hell enough that major currencies also go to hell, then yeah sure cryptocurrencies will definitely be tradeable and keep their value. That will definitely be a thing.
OK... no matter how sarcastic I write it, I sound like a crypto-dweeb. It's impossible to send up.
Re:Well makes sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that was my first thought as well. It's hard to imagine a scenario where money "goes to hell", yet stuff like BitCoin somehow remains reliably useable (or, as reliable as it currently is - which isn't very reliable already).
Re:Well makes sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that was my first thought as well. It's hard to imagine a scenario where money "goes to hell", yet stuff like BitCoin somehow remains reliably useable (or, as reliable as it currently is - which isn't very reliable already).
I'm with you. You have a world where government backed currencies have "gone to hell" and people will trust crypto and tehre'll be an infrastructure in place that enables it to work? They're probably better off investing in building a private security force armed to the teeth with plenty of supplies for a long term engagemnet if they are seriously worried about such a scenario.
Re:Well makes sense... (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, currency has gone to hell, I have bitcoin, but all the power is down, the network is down and I'm a billionaire on paper but I can't get at my bitcoins and no one will even take my usb stick as a barter item for a sandwich!
Re: Well makes sense... (Score:2)
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If your really rich sink some of it into platinum to cut back on weight.
Gold is selling for about twice the price per ounce compared to platinum. So ounce for ounce, you're better with gold.
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Gold is selling for about twice the price per ounce compared to platinum. So ounce for ounce, you're better with gold.
This. Gold has history as a trading mechanism and will probably still be worth something even if fiat currencies cease to exist, just because it is rare enough to still represent what a currency at its heart is - scarcity.
Of course food might be rare too. Or fuel. Or ammunition. I'd be sure and have lots of those before I had Bitcoin.
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Platinum's biggest use, even more than jewellery, is for exhaust treatment systems - for example, car catalytic converters. I suspect the demand for those might be dropping over the next 10 years though.
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They will also come in handy to fight off all the werewolves and vampires in the coming apocalypse. Not sure of it's effectiveness against zombie infestation though. Might need to invest in some baseball bats and chainsaws to hedge against that.
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They're probably better off investing in building a private security force armed to the teeth with plenty of supplies for a long term engagemnet if they are seriously worried about such a scenario.
And they'd better make life very, very good for that security force - otherwise, after a bit, they might wake up dead.
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Though be aware, that private security force will desert you pretty quick if all their money is useless too.
Basically, the 'money goes to hell' scenario is only mitigated in theory by buying some remote location with arable land, food, medicine, and weapons, and it still is going to suck.
Bitcointown (Score:2)
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Oh, you mean they already have enough gold...
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Note that in a 'money goes to hell', gold will likely not help you out much either. You are looking at a broken down government and legal system, and thus no way for you to cry foul if you give someone X ounces of gold and they don't provide what you paid for.
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The scenario is hyperinflation.
Re: Well makes sense... (Score:2)
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Regular currencies have gone to hell many times. In fact in all history there hasn't been one currency that hasn't succumbed to hyperinflation and collapse after a certain period. The only thing that more or less kept its value is gold, because it is fairly reliably scarce. No government can make more of it on a whim.
In a hyperinflatonary scenario government(s) cannot resist printing (or creating) more money, solving short term problems while creating long term ones. We've seen the amount of money being cre
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I think by "go to hell", they don't mean society collapsing (you'll need a bunker, guns, and foot stockpiles to hedge against that), but rather, scenarios in which inflation spikes to an uncomfortable degree. That can happen without apocalyptic societal collapse, nor does it have to be some catastrophic hyperinflation scenario.
Cryptocurrencies can't be easily devalued due to oversupply, since the volume is capped, and as such, makes a reasonable bulwark against traditional currency inflationary pressures.
Re: Well makes sense... (Score:2)
Re: Well makes sense... (Score:2)
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I get the sarcasm. But I do find it funny how people think that if society crashes enough that state backed money fails, then how is it that the power grid will be stable enough to maintain the massive amount of computing power crypto traditionally requires. I think we're more likely to be trading bottle caps than anything requiring a computer.
Re: Well makes sense... (Score:1)
Your sarcasm doesnâ(TM)t detract from the fact that you donâ(TM)t understand what âoemoneyâ is. Or, to put it better, âoesound moneyâ.
I would highly suggest folks Google search and then read âoeWhat has government done to our money?â
Itâ(TM)s available free online in PDF and ePUB and many other formats. The author released it for free decades ago. It hasnâ(TM)t changed in those decades, and sound money includes things like gold, silver to some degree, and
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If money goes to hell, currency will return to its basic form: a thing that is mutually valued, divisible and indestructible. Metals played that role for millennia. The slips of paper of fiat currency we now use, used to represent some amount of metals. But no one was converting them into metals. So they did a bait and switch - just said it no longer represents gold. The price of gold skyrocketed and stayed elevated but the system continued to function without collapse.
Bitcoin is a virtual object that seem
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My Cynical Little Voice opines that the more they can get useful idiots to invest real cash into crypto, the more of that real cash goes into billionaires' bank accounts.
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That makes total sense. If the world goes to hell enough that major currencies also go to hell, then yeah sure cryptocurrencies will definitely be tradeable and keep their value. That will definitely be a thing.
OK... no matter how sarcastic I write it, I sound like a crypto-dweeb. It's impossible to send up.
I think people are in for a terrible surprise.
If the USD went belly up would you accept BTC or ETH? The world is based on the USD. Many countries use USD as their official currency their economy is that linked to the US economy. Since BTC and ETH were based on USD then what? It could also be worthless.
Gold and silver have always been stable for centuries. That's the real stuff to have. Crypto isn't based on anything. Not even a promise. That billionaire won't be able to buy good and services with crypto.
Mig
If you have money you can afford to gamble (Score:2)
Re: If you have money you can afford to gamble (Score:2)
The hard currency comes from some place.
Yes, either from someone else rich enough to gamble, or from someone stupid enough to fall for it (and far enough from poverty to still have some money left to gamble a little). So... no tears from me.
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re:If money goes to hell... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Capital controls would destroy you (Score:2, Insightful)
Investing in crypto is momentum investing and investing in the fear and stupidity of other investors. If US/EU fiat goes to hell in a blaze of hyperinflation there are two options.
- US/EU become fail states. In which case it's time for proper prepping. Homes on island nation which might escape the collapse. Also compounds inna woods, competent friends, ammo, food+technology autarky and a little gold for when civilization boots up again.
- Capital controls to stabilize the economy, one of the first things wh
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Lets say the state doesn't fail. Whatever technocrats come into power to rebuild the financial system will neither have interest in nor need of cryptocurrency, but since the state did not fail they will still have the ability to easily blow cryptocurrency out of the water. The state while it functions controls all electronic transactions in the country, all exchanges in the state will cease to exist and all exchanges outside of the states will be made financial leppers (see Iran). It will become completely
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a little gold for when civilization boots up again.
Everyone knows bottlecaps are the currency to stock up on.
and the local sheriff can just jail rich guy till (Score:2)
and the local sheriff can just jail rich guy till they give up the code to there crypo.
Also the same local sheriff will stop the farmer from being forced to send there food over seas when the locals are out bid that have no food.
If money goes to hell (Score:3)
Good start but not robust enough (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget skills, tools, equipment and means to produce more food. Stockpiles merely buy time to find sustainable survival options.
Own rural property (urban overhead is pure loss in hard times) large enough to grow food or raise uncomplicated livestock (chickens are easy, I've kept them many years). Every Bubba has ammo and will promptly deplete the deer population. My venison comes from fixing equipment for my bros and is more easily acquired than via hunting.
Have useful skills you can use and barter. Become your own mechanic, plumber and electricians. It's easy to learn and much more fun than passive useless entertainments.
Have facilities, tools and equipment because skill without those is of little worth. What one human can do another can do (my late wife did most of our home renovations while I was deployed and we both chose to be skilled mechanics and technicians).
If you choose a robust lifestyle in a carefully planned location that naturally includes "prepping" which is an integral ongoing profitable process in good times and bad.
I did/do all the above which facilitated comfortable early retirement and I'm not special. Disasters are (effectively) inevitable, recessions and depressions ditto, so best to internalize that good times are intermissions between bad times then live accordingly. It's also comfy and wise choices permit indulging nearly any hobbies you like.
token only useful redeemable for money (Score:3, Interesting)
cryptocoins are only accepted as payment now because they are converted to money at the time of transaction. What use is a casino chip/gambling token that is not redeemable for money? Value of cryptocoins will go to zero as fast or even faster than any largely accepted currency does. They are for speculation, sure, but can't be a hedge.
Sure ... (Score:1)
Some Billionaires Embrace Cryptocurrencies in Case Money 'Goes to Hell'
Can't wait for the fall of the dollar so I can stand in front of the register at the grocery store for 10min while my cryptocoin transaction clears, assuming I own one they accept -- oh wait, my grocery store doesn't accept any cryptocurrency.
WTF are they talking about?
Also, from 4 Cryptocurrencies to Avoid Like the Plague in 2022 [fool.com]:
What's more, the Dogecoin blockchain isn't particularly fast, doesn't offer any jaw-dropping ability to scale, and in September saw the average number of transactions completed daily fall to a three-year low (about 20,000 per day). Payment giant Visa is capable of processing what Dogecoin has been handling per day on its blockchain in just one second.
Crypto has no intrinsic value just like fiat money (Score:2)
Property, hard goods and ability to provide necessary services will have value.
I raise chickens. They unlike bitcoin produce eggs and more chickens. Chickens are perfect recyclers of all that is chicken so feeding them unused eggs and cooked leftovers is also pure win.A hypothetical neighbor may have crypto but that has no intrinsic value.
If I desire crypto and neighbor needs food who is under greater pressure to cut a deal? I'll not starve for lack of crypto.
While the wealthy have ample choice and reason t
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Fiat has armed enforcers (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes say "just like fiat". The difference is, of course, the actual fiat - the government order.
If you don't come up with some dollars on April 15th, eventually armed enforcement agents will show up to take your stuff, and even take you to jail. There will always be widespread demand for US dollars as long as the IRS continues to operate.
At the end of the day, the ultimate source of value of the US dollar is that it keeps the tax man from taking your house and perhaps your freedom.
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Miss payments? There is a government that forces you to pay them BTC every April?
Nobody forces you to get Bitcoin. Quite the opposite actually - the challenge is finding anyone who will even accept BTC as payment.
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Nobody forces you to get Bitcoin. Quite the opposite actually
You're missing the point. We're talking about the dreams of crypt-hos everywhere of crypto being the main currencies.
Say you pay rent in Bitcoin, per agreement with a landlord. You can't make the month's rent. Are you saying no one will enforce that? The landlord's going to let you squat out of the goodness of his heart?
Or you pay your rent, and the landlord kicks you out early and simply refuses to pay you back the difference. You're going accept that loss out of the goodness of your heart?
Or mayb
FOMO (Score:4, Insightful)
That the primary motivation for a lot of people to get in is now FOMO, is a promising sign of a cresting bubble
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I’m old enough to remember friends getting badly hit by similar pyramid schemes in the 1980’s.
- Invent a commodity that is essentially worthless
- Talk it up big
- Demonstrate it’s increasing value
- Generate FOMO
- Get out before everyone cottons on
Prediction; just as night follows day
It will end in tears for those left holding the bag
The grand master plan of crypto (Score:2, Interesting)
The plan for all cryptocurrencies isn't what you think it is. It's more sinister than the egalitarian image the crypto boys portray for it.
After the 2008 financial meltdown, cryptocurrencies were born out of it, declared to be the means by which people could be freed from banks/governments, and promised to avoid any such future meltdowns from happening ever again.
But the crypto boys watched closely the result of that meltdown, and formulated their plan: create a new form of currency, and for it a new fina
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Another crypto slashvertisement (Score:3, Insightful)
Will it ever stop, Slashdot? [slashdot.org]
Impressively stupid (Score:2)
If "money goes to hell", so will the infrastructure that keep the worthless crapcoin fantasy at least somewhat alive.
Internet (Score:2)
Who's going to maintain the internet backbone of crypto?
Where are you even going to get clean water from?
doesn't make sense (Score:2)
Mostly for after (Score:1)
Gold and Silver become worthless in a Fiat collapse just like crypto coins.
Gold and silver act to preserve wealth on the other side of a crash... as they have for thousands of years.
In the intermediate term you do need other things, primarily physical goods. However silver/gold may be useful - just look at there price of silver and gold in Turkish Lyra, or Venzulia where they use tiny gold nuggets to pay for food in grocery stores.
Re: There is no "if", money is going to hell (Score:2)
If money is becoming worthless, and the proof is that people like Musk are dumping stock (except that he isnâ(TM)t, but we will let that detail slide), then what are people getting in exchange for their stock? More money? And how will holding more money help in that scenario?
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what are people getting in exchange for their stock? More money?
If wonder if you realize that after selling stock it is possible to take that money and buy something else with it.
Bill Gates for example, has been buying up farmland like mad... not sure what Musk has in mind, though his will probably go for fundamental equipment and basic minerals needed for SpaceX and Tesla.
Becasue that's where the money is. (Score:1)
But make no mistake, Hell is wherever these people are. The money is just something else they bring with them.
I share the philosophy (Score:2)
Im my physical safe I have some physical silver in 1 oz coins, 10 and 50 oz bars. It's some thousands in dollars in market value. It's not a significant amount of money. I'll never miss the cash I used. It's a small hedge against economic turmoil. The upper-level wealthy can do the same with crypto purchases and never look back.
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Of course, you have a marginally better chance of being able to offer up silver in a 'money gone to hell' scenario than bitcoin. But to be fair, only marginally so (if your nation's currency isn't useful, then good look trying to trade any indirectly valuable 'currency' with anyone).
I don't think so (Score:2)
If money goes to hell, your local farmer isn't going to be taking bitcoins in exchange for food.
If money goes to hell... (Score:2)
Only good for war. (Score:3)
Billionaires already keep money in US $, british lbs, japanese Yen, etc.
Most things that cause 'money to go to hell' would also destroy the internet. Hard to use crypto without the internet.
About the only real use of Crypto when "money goes to hell" would be to transport large amounts of cash through a war zone. Think wealthy Jewish families stuck in Nazi Germany.
Similar modern scenarios would include Ukraine/Taiwanese people escaping from a Russia / China invasion.
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"Most things that cause 'money to go to hell' would also destroy the internet. Hard to use crypto without the internet."
Money could just collapse to a fraction of its buying power, ask the Turks. The economy and the internet will survive, unfortunately your savings probably will not. Unless you invest them in some safe haven asset like real estate, art, gold or Bitcoin...
Bitcoin has some real advantages compared to the classic safe haven assets. You can just buy some from behind your desk and provided you g
Of COURSE (Score:2)
"I'm 'concerned' about the value of fiat currency, so I'm going to invest my vast wealth in an even more ephemeral, subjectively-valued thing."
Brilliant logic. Really.
So what happens if the internet .. (Score:1)
... goes to hell? I'd invest in GOLD. And perhaps some very high quality steel .. needed to forge weapons after WOIII happened.
Just saying (Score:2)
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That's what puzzles me most about crypto. How do I give the neighbor kid twenty bucks for mowing my lawn, as Ethereum or Bitcoin? Good ol' printed dollars work best here. A cheap snack at the gas station convenience store? An emergency stash of a couple hundred bucks just in case something weird happens during a power outage? I currently live in a rural area. Internet and power outages a few times a year = crypto is not reliable. Will have to trade chickens for loaves of bread.
Haha. (Score:2)
Billionaires will be sol when there is no electricity.
Meanwhile other billionaires believe... (Score:2)
Meanwhile, other billionaires like me[*] are suspecting that it's the cryptocurrencies that will go kaboom, due to their being based on hot air, hype and networks of belief, and prefer to keep our billions[*] in more conventional investments and bank accounts, even if there's some involvement of hot air, hype and belief networks there too.
[*] = disclaimer: some exaggeration may be involved.